Please Overhaul Raids.

[FrizzFreston.5290]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> >Yeah but your path to ¨more enjoyable¨ is to make it require less effort (thus faster) and easier.

>

> Nope. Same effort, more time (thus slower), and easier.

>

> >Ignoring the fact that it would make it less enjoyable for the actual target audience.

>

> It wouldn't do anything to the target audience, their version should remain intact.

 

These reoccurring arguments are simply false.

Something that is easier and takes longer will never be the same effort as something that is hard and takes short. Between the huge diversity of skill level, time spend and pure opinion on said content it will never be the same amount of effort for every single player. And that's not even looking at motivations to play either one mode.

The original version may stay intact, but claiming it wouldn't do anything as if it exist in a vaccuum is simply not true. Players are motivated by multiple things. If you implement two different modes you automatically make getting to the reward about which route is the fastest, the least effort and least preparation of the two. People who struggle to get a party for one mode will flock to the other, regardless of which content they like better simply because one of the two will get them the reward faster.

 

The point here is not that easy modes can't exist, btw, but more that it WILL affect the target audience for raids and the effort between the modes WILL NOT be the same.

[Miellyn.6847]

> @"Turin.6921" said:

> I do not understand why you cannot have different game modes catering to different people and why the fact that you cannot play a mode makes you envious and entitled to play it.

 

Because there are rewards he wants and can't get.

But if those rewards are so important and joy killing, why is he still playing the game and arguing for another path to those rewards?

[Martimus.6027]

I'll give my two cents as a returning player:

 

GW2 is really not very 'new user' friendly. It isn't very 'returning player' friendly, either. I beta tested UO, Beta tested EQ and EQ2, raided in both for many years. I was in Friends and Family Alpha for WoW vanilla and every expansion pack, and raided competitively in every one of them, raided casually in FFXIV as well, and I have to say, even getting to the point to raid in GW2 is rather alien to me. I'm not sure what I would even have to do. I would like to, but there isn't really a good place to go to read up on the steps necessary to make it happen. I know I need Berserker's gear for my Ele Power Staff Weaver, and I have the best I can find thusfar without crafting difficult ones: is that enough? Are there 'item level' requirements as it were? I also see people complaining that unless you are a Druid or certain other classes, you just don't get to raid.

 

I agree that raids should be more easily _accessed_, though not in any way less difficult.

[ButcherofMalakir.4067]

> I agree that raids should be more easily _accessed_, though not in any way less difficult.

 

Totaly agree on this one. Maybe if there was introduction boss that rewards ascended weapons of your choice (and maybe trinkets)

 

Obviously one time only

 

Edit: also there could be npc that shout out mechanics

[Turin.6921]

> @"Martimus.6027" said:

> I'll give my two cents as a returning player:

>

> GW2 is really not very 'new user' friendly. It isn't very 'returning player' friendly, either. I beta tested UO, Beta tested EQ and EQ2, raided in both for many years. I was in Friends and Family Alpha for WoW vanilla and every expansion pack, and raided competitively in every one of them, raided casually in FFXIV as well, and I have to say, even getting to the point to raid in GW2 is rather alien to me. I'm not sure what I would even have to do. I would like to, but there isn't really a good place to go to read up on the steps necessary to make it happen. I know I need Berserker's gear for my Ele Power Staff Weaver, and I have the best I can find thusfar without crafting difficult ones: is that enough? Are there 'item level' requirements as it were? I also see people complaining that unless you are a Druid or certain other classes, you just don't get to raid.

>

> I agree that raids should be more easily _accessed_, though not in any way less difficult.

 

Yup that was exactly my point as well. Adding training features and new LFG categories for training that at least new people can easily know where to start. At least a in-game point that new players and trainers can congregate.

 

BTW check metabattle.com for builds. Dulfy.net for guides and Snowcrows website for both. Between those three you will find all the information you need.

[Miellyn.6847]

> @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said:

> > I agree that raids should be more easily _accessed_, though not in any way less difficult.

>

> Totaly agree on this one. Maybe if there was introduction boss that rewards ascended weapons of your choice (and maybe trinkets)

>

> Obviously one time only

>

> Edit: also there could be npc that shout out mechanics

 

There are more than enough sources for ascended already. Multiple collections award armor and weapons.

VG is what you are searching for. The three adds before him show you all relevant mechanics. The glowing tiles during 66% and 33% are pretty self-explanatory.

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said:

> > I agree that raids should be more easily _accessed_, though not in any way less difficult.

>

> Totaly agree on this one. Maybe if there was introduction boss that rewards ascended weapons of your choice (and maybe trinkets)

>

> Obviously one time only

>

> Edit: also there could be npc that shout out mechanics

 

How exactly would that help? If it's one time only then after a very short period of time the community would move on from that boss and then what? Back to square one.

[Sigfodr.9576]

> @"Martimus.6027" said:

> I'll give my two cents as a returning player:

>

> GW2 is really not very 'new user' friendly. It isn't very 'returning player' friendly, either. I beta tested UO, Beta tested EQ and EQ2, raided in both for many years. I was in Friends and Family Alpha for WoW vanilla and every expansion pack, and raided competitively in every one of them, raided casually in FFXIV as well, and I have to say, even getting to the point to raid in GW2 is rather alien to me. I'm not sure what I would even have to do. I would like to, but there isn't really a good place to go to read up on the steps necessary to make it happen. I know I need Berserker's gear for my Ele Power Staff Weaver, and I have the best I can find thusfar without crafting difficult ones: is that enough? Are there 'item level' requirements as it were? I also see people complaining that unless you are a Druid or certain other classes, you just don't get to raid.

>

> I agree that raids should be more easily _accessed_, though not in any way less difficult.

 

The BY far easyest way to get into raiding is to either find a guild that raid, or join one of the many training groups that run every week. For more info (both EU and NA) https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/34945/where-does-one-find-training-raids-guilds#latest here many of the well known training groups listed. There are many other guilds that org training runs, but they are generally more for members of said guild.

 

These group will either have pages with info about builds etc. or have people/commanders willing to help ajust builds to what is needed on the boss (or what the group need).

 

Generally pugging a raid is NOT the way to learn (it can be done naturally, but it is generally not the fastest or smothest way).

[ButcherofMalakir.4067]

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said:

> > > I agree that raids should be more easily _accessed_, though not in any way less difficult.

> >

> > Totaly agree on this one. Maybe if there was introduction boss that rewards ascended weapons of your choice (and maybe trinkets)

> >

> > Obviously one time only

> >

> > Edit: also there could be npc that shout out mechanics

>

> How exactly would that help? If it's one time only then after a very short period of time the community would move on from that boss and then what? Back to square one.

 

It would get new players to raids (free ascended) and made sure that everyone doesnt use yellow gear.

 

I dont know what more do you want. Raids are ment to be challanging and anet specificaly stated that they do not want multiple raid dificulty.

Only though that is for me on edge of resonable i heard here is that there are players that dont want to raid, want the armor and game should be fun. Yet when someone complain that he had to do wvw to get legendary reaction is that legendary weapon should be tied to all gamemodes. I never complained about making my legendary even when it included parts that i hated. Still i think its great that they are there and it makes me value it even more.

 

Player that wants to play raids now can. Player who doesnt want to even try but still cry that he want the reward raiders work for... Well lets say we have diferent view and i am happy that i dont have to deal with him both in pugs and training runs.

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said:

> It would get new players to raids (free ascended) and made sure that everyone doesnt use yellow gear.

>

 

It wouldn't get new players to Raid, it would be a way for them to get the free one-time Ascended item and then go back and do what they've always done.

One time rewards are not good to entice players to try and play content, just see the vast difference between CM Fractals and CM Raids. CM Fractals are done daily because they offer unique/increased rewards, while CM Raids are done very rarely because they have one-time rewards. Rewards that aren't even unique!

[ButcherofMalakir.4067]

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said:

> > It would get new players to raids (free ascended) and made sure that everyone doesnt use yellow gear.

> >

>

> It wouldn't get new players to Raid, it would be a way for them to get the free one-time Ascended item and then go back and do what they've always done.

> One time rewards are not good to entice players to try and play content, just see the vast difference between CM Fractals and CM Raids. CM Fractals are done daily because they offer unique/increased rewards, while CM Raids are done very rarely because they have one-time rewards. Rewards that aren't even unique!

 

Yes but right bow there are players that are afraid to try. As i said i know players that werent interested in raids but wanted the armor so they started raiding and are raiding ever since even when they already finished. I also know players that get that armor and never came back. This can atract some perceent of players

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"Turin.6921" said:

>Discussing with you is hopeless. You are talking about a matter you actually know nothing about and obviously never been in a training community and have no idea how things work in raids.

 

No, I know full well, I just do not *like* any of that stuff, or *want* to participate in it.

 

> @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said:

> The story part is true but if someone doesnt care about raids they doesnt know that the story is there.

 

That's no excuse. Anyone who follows GW2 is aware that the story is there, and even if they didn't, they would be missing out on a part of Tyria's story. And no a "summary" or watching a lets play is not a satisfactory replacement. This is A GAME, and the point of a game is to PLAY it, to experience the story first hand, to *take part in it.* That is the experience players should have. Ideally they could do the same with season 1, but that was a sprawling mess that they never intended to package up into repeatable content, so I can understand their inability to do so. There is no such excuse here.

 

>As i already said Anet said that they are AGAINST making more raid dificulty options so we have to come with another option so other players want/can participate.

 

They are against making more difficulty option, but the fact remains that there is no better option, they *must* make them. The longer they drag their feet, the more good will they lose. I'm sure EA didn't *want* to remove their P2W loot boxes from Battlefront, but they did it anyway.

 

>I dont know if you raid/how often but i am newer raider myself. I started with training diacord server. Its true that some bosses have mechanics that everyone needs to do but others habe mechanics only some needs to do. There are few bosses that for dps class are a dps golem and you are fine as long as you can do 15k dps. Out of the easier bosses i never experianced a kill that took more then 1 hour with explanation. One day i was part of VG training and 7 out of 9 trainies never saw VG and 6 never saw raid. We killed it at second try. Obviously this is not the avarage group but it is possible.

 

I fully understand the realities of the raiding scene. I am saying I want *nothing to do with any of that.* I want to be able to just join a random LFG pug, full of random players, some with a little basic knowledge of the encounter, some without, most in a non-meta build, jump into any boss fight we want, and clear it on the first or second try, maybe taking a bit longer per attempt than a current group would, but clearing it rather than wiping. That's the experience I'm looking for, I'm not looking merely to get better at the currently available raid experience.

 

> @"FrizzFreston.5290" said:

>Something that is easier and takes longer will never be the same effort as something that is hard and takes short.

 

So? We're not looking for "the same," but we are looking for "fair," and something that is easier but takes longer *is fair.*

 

>Between the huge diversity of skill level, time spend and pure opinion on said content it will never be the same amount of effort for every single player.

 

But that's true of the current system. In the current system there are teams like ButcherofMalakir mentions that can coast through some encounters with relatively low experience, while others struggle for weeks trying to get an encounter there. Should the teams that do really well at the encounter and clear it relatively quickly get less rewards than the teams that really struggle and take a lot longer to get there? You can never balance content based on the exact amount of time and effort spent, because every person is different, but multiplayer games since the beginning of gaming have been balanced around baseline expectations, there is no difference here.

 

>If you implement two different modes you automatically make getting to the reward about which route is the fastest, the least effort and least preparation of the two.

 

For some players, but not for all. It's up to the individual player to decide for himself what he wants to do, what would make him happiest. Whatever he decides would be for the best.

 

>People who struggle to get a party for one mode will flock to the other, regardless of which content they like better simply because one of the two will get them the reward faster.

 

Again though, the hard mode would provide the rewards faster, so I'm not sure what your point here is.

 

>The point here is not that easy modes can't exist, btw, but more that it WILL affect the target audience for raids and the effort between the modes WILL NOT be the same.

 

Agreed, they would be *better.*

[ButcherofMalakir.4067]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"Turin.6921" said:

> >Discussing with you is hopeless. You are talking about a matter you actually know nothing about and obviously never been in a training community and have no idea how things work in raids.

>

> No, I know full well, I just do not *like* any of that stuff, or *want* to participate in it.

>

> > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said:

> > The story part is true but if someone doesnt care about raids they doesnt know that the story is there.

>

> That's no excuse. Anyone who follows GW2 is aware that the story is there, and even if they didn't, they would be missing out on a part of Tyria's story. And no a "summary" or watching a lets play is not a satisfactory replacement. This is A GAME, and the point of a game is to PLAY it, to experience the story first hand, to *take part in it.* That is the experience players should have. Ideally they could do the same with season 1, but that was a sprawling mess that they never intended to package up into repeatable content, so I can understand their inability to do so. There is no such excuse here.

>

> >As i already said Anet said that they are AGAINST making more raid dificulty options so we have to come with another option so other players want/can participate.

>

> They are against making more difficulty option, but the fact remains that there is no better option, they *must* make them. The longer they drag their feet, the more good will they lose. I'm sure EA didn't *want* to remove their P2W loot boxes from Battlefront, but they did it anyway.

>

> >I dont know if you raid/how often but i am newer raider myself. I started with training diacord server. Its true that some bosses have mechanics that everyone needs to do but others habe mechanics only some needs to do. There are few bosses that for dps class are a dps golem and you are fine as long as you can do 15k dps. Out of the easier bosses i never experianced a kill that took more then 1 hour with explanation. One day i was part of VG training and 7 out of 9 trainies never saw VG and 6 never saw raid. We killed it at second try. Obviously this is not the avarage group but it is possible.

>

> I fully understand the realities of the raiding scene. I am saying I want *nothing to do with any of that.* I want to be able to just join a random LFG pug, full of random players, some with a little basic knowledge of the encounter, some without, most in a non-meta build, jump into any boss fight we want, and clear it on the first or second try, maybe taking a bit longer per attempt than a current group would, but clearing it rather than wiping. That's the experience I'm looking for, I'm not looking merely to get better at the currently available raid experience.

>

> > @"FrizzFreston.5290" said:

> >Something that is easier and takes longer will never be the same effort as something that is hard and takes short.

>

> So? We're not looking for "the same," but we are looking for "fair," and something that is easier but takes longer *is fair.*

>

> >Between the huge diversity of skill level, time spend and pure opinion on said content it will never be the same amount of effort for every single player.

>

> But that's true of the current system. In the current system there are teams like ButcherofMalakir mentions that can coast through some encounters with relatively low experience, while others struggle for weeks trying to get an encounter there. Should the teams that do really well at the encounter and clear it relatively quickly get less rewards than the teams that really struggle and take a lot longer to get there? You can never balance content based on the exact amount of time and effort spent, because every person is different, but multiplayer games since the beginning of gaming have been balanced around baseline expectations, there is no difference here.

>

> >If you implement two different modes you automatically make getting to the reward about which route is the fastest, the least effort and least preparation of the two.

>

> For some players, but not for all. It's up to the individual player to decide for himself what he wants to do, what would make him happiest. Whatever he decides would be for the best.

>

> >People who struggle to get a party for one mode will flock to the other, regardless of which content they like better simply because one of the two will get them the reward faster.

>

> Again though, the hard mode would provide the rewards faster, so I'm not sure what your point here is.

>

> >The point here is not that easy modes can't exist, btw, but more that it WILL affect the target audience for raids and the effort between the modes WILL NOT be the same.

>

> Agreed, they would be *better.*

 

Rofl. Better from your point of view. From mine alot worse.

Also you complain that you cannot enjoy story when you admited you dobt want to play it

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said:

> Rofl. Better from your point of view. From mine alot worse.

> Also you complain that you cannot enjoy story when you admited you dobt want to play it

 

Lol, "admitted," that almost sounds accusatory. I *said* that I don't want to play the raids *as they are now,* as in that they are difficult enough that people suggest "training runs" with a straight face. What I *do* want is to participate in them in an *easier* mode, one in which you can just roll in and play, no practice necessary. I know the sort of experience I want to have, and I've been very clear about what that is. I am not trying to trick anyone here, I'm making my case honestly, agree or disagree, but please don't accuse me of deception.

[Tyson.5160]

> @"FrizzFreston.5290" said:

> > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > >Yeah but your path to ¨more enjoyable¨ is to make it require less effort (thus faster) and easier.

> >

> > Nope. Same effort, more time (thus slower), and easier.

> >

> > >Ignoring the fact that it would make it less enjoyable for the actual target audience.

> >

> > It wouldn't do anything to the target audience, their version should remain intact.

>

> These reoccurring arguments are simply false.

> Something that is easier and takes longer will never be the same effort as something that is hard and takes short. Between the huge diversity of skill level, time spend and pure opinion on said content it will never be the same amount of effort for every single player. And that's not even looking at motivations to play either one mode.

> The original version may stay intact, but claiming it wouldn't do anything as if it exist in a vaccuum is simply not true. Players are motivated by multiple things. If you implement two different modes you automatically make getting to the reward about which route is the fastest, the least effort and least preparation of the two. People who struggle to get a party for one mode will flock to the other, regardless of which content they like better simply because one of the two will get them the reward faster.

>

> The point here is not that easy modes can't exist, btw, but more that it WILL affect the target audience for raids and the effort between the modes WILL NOT be the same.

 

I don’t really understand the logic here. If they added an easy mode, more people who never had raided, those who raided and got turned off by some reason would naturally try an easy mode version. People that don’t like the currently difficulty, might like an easy mode and then play that. The addition of the easy mode would have more players, playing the content and thus would probably give Anet a bigger reason to add additional staff to the raid team.

[ButcherofMalakir.4067]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said:

> > Rofl. Better from your point of view. From mine alot worse.

> > Also you complain that you cannot enjoy story when you admited you dobt want to play it

>

> Lol, "admitted," that almost sounds accusatory. I *said* that I don't want to play the raids *as they are now,* as in that they are difficult enough that people suggest "training runs" with a straight face. What I *do* want is to participate in them in an *easier* mode, one in which you can just roll in and play, no practice necessary. I know the sort of experience I want to have, and I've been very clear about what that is. I am not trying to trick anyone here, I'm making my case honestly, agree or disagree, but please don't accuse me of deception.

 

So to sumarize you want to play the raids but to finish it as fast as possible without need for specific compositions and rotations and you want to have acces to legrndary armor woth minimal actual raid involvement.

 

Would you prefer if game provide learning experiance or if you could Finish everything on easy dificulty?

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said:

> > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said:

> > > Rofl. Better from your point of view. From mine alot worse.

> > > Also you complain that you cannot enjoy story when you admited you dobt want to play it

> >

> > Lol, "admitted," that almost sounds accusatory. I *said* that I don't want to play the raids *as they are now,* as in that they are difficult enough that people suggest "training runs" with a straight face. What I *do* want is to participate in them in an *easier* mode, one in which you can just roll in and play, no practice necessary. I know the sort of experience I want to have, and I've been very clear about what that is. I am not trying to trick anyone here, I'm making my case honestly, agree or disagree, but please don't accuse me of deception.

>

> So to sumarize you want to play the raids but to finish it as fast as possible without need for specific compositions and rotations and you want to have acces to legrndary armor woth minimal actual raid involvement.

 

Just so.

 

>Would you prefer if game provide learning experiance or if you could Finish everything on easy dificulty?

 

Easy difficulty. I know everything I feel I need to know, there is nothing more for me to learn that I feel a need to learn. What I want is to be able to casually engage the content with a low risk of failure.

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > That's an unreasonable assumption. You don't know how many of these players would *only* play GW2 with raids (verses how many would still be playing, just in some other mode), and you aren't accounting for how many players quit due to the addition of raids. There's no evidence that raids have caused a net gain in players.

>

> Oh, but there actually *is*. Very hard, rock-solid evidence. And it is in the simple fact: the people who actually have access to the numbers deemed them successful enough to warrant the continued development. *You* are the one engaging in speculating about possibilities. I'm observing facts.

I'll remember that argument for the next time someone brings up LFR and how bad it was for raids in WoW.

 

> @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said:

> I know many players that didnt want to even try raids/wvw but are playing them now all the time because they wanted legendary so badly.

The important question here is "Are they having fun doing that?". And for the many the answer is "no".

 

> @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said:

> When you complete the thing you are after the reward feel greater then if you just played and it fell to you lap

Indeed. Assuming the journey is not unfun enough to make the end result a net negative.

 

> @"Turin.6921" said:

> We know exactly who is working on raids. And they are a typical team of 8-10 people that span throughout the expertise require for a raids encounter. Most people are working on LS and expansions. It been said clearly both in AMA and in the pages on the wiki referring to the dev team that Anet keeps updated themselves.You should do your homework before you call nonsense.

You should do your homework as well. What you are talking about is the raid team - the devs that work on raids and raids only. What you ignore however is that there's also a lot of devs that do stuff for all kinds of content, including raids. For example, can you point me to the person on the raid team roster that does music for raid encounters?

(hint: no, you can't, because Maclaine Diemer is not part of the Raid team)

 

> @"Turin.6921" said:

> > > I would call raids quite a successful mode taking into account that it is developed by a single 8-10 people team of a total of 400 (which some are also responsible for fractals as well BTW).

> >

> > Which it isn't.

> >

>

> Great argument.

Well, you did base your argument on untrue assumption (that raids are being developed only by raid team).

 

[Linken.6345]

> @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said:

> If you take away our raid specific rewards then its fair if we get more gold per hour from raids then mindless farms.

>

> Lets say we need 10 minutes for a boss, thats 6 bosses in an hour. Silverwaste farm is 30g/h ?

> If so we need 38 gold for 6 bosses (counting food) so 6gold 33 silvers per boss fight instead of 2 gold)

>

> And i hope noone here want to argue with me that i should be paid more if i actualy use brain.

 

You have to count in raiders can only do bosses once each week so 35g each boss should be about right.

[Vinceman.4572]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:> You should do your homework as well. What you are talking about is the raid team - the devs that work on raids and raids only. What you ignore however is that there's also a lot of devs that do stuff for all kinds of content, including raids. For example, can you point me to the person on the raid team roster that does music for raid encounters?> (hint: no, you can't, because Maclaine Diemer is not part of the Raid team)That doesn't matter because it doesn't hinder Diemer to develop new LS/open world stuff because he is a composer and not responsible for giving new content to you. ___I wonder what the quarterly earnings will show us.

Financial Analysts predict a strong first Quarter 2018 for GW2.

But yeah, I already know your answers...

[Miellyn.6847]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > That's an unreasonable assumption. You don't know how many of these players would *only* play GW2 with raids (verses how many would still be playing, just in some other mode), and you aren't accounting for how many players quit due to the addition of raids. There's no evidence that raids have caused a net gain in players.

> >

> > Oh, but there actually *is*. Very hard, rock-solid evidence. And it is in the simple fact: the people who actually have access to the numbers deemed them successful enough to warrant the continued development. *You* are the one engaging in speculating about possibilities. I'm observing facts.

> I'll remember that argument for the next time someone brings up LFR and how bad it was for raids in WoW.

 

WoW is a different game. Raids progress the main story since classic and are major content updates. There is no other content when a raid releases.

Raids in GW2 are still niche content with long development time.

 

The conversion rate from LFR to normal is abyssmal. When the developers tried to increase it with higher difficulty and less loot there was a huge shitstorm. Remember Cataclysm where the normal raid size from 10-15 Bosses after release got reduced to 7/8 Bosses and world content was dead because they needed the ressources for the LFR introduction? The playerbase never recovered from that content drought. The 'cyclical' playercount during expansions has its root in LFR. People subscribe. play one time LFR and unsubscribe again until the next content patch. There is a reason LFR gets released per wing after the normal release (and it's not because they care about the other raiders). Yes LFR was and still is bad for WoW.

 

You can't remove such a feature after the introduction without upsetting a large part of players. Even if they never wanted it to begin with they will riot if you remove it. Because at this point you actually take content away from them they had before even if they never cared about it before the introduction.

 

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"Miellyn.6847" said:

> The conversion rate from LFR to normal is abyssmal.

 

Why should there be a conversion from LFR to normal?

 

>People subscribe. play one time LFR and unsubscribe again until the next content patch. There is a reason LFR gets released per wing after the normal release (and it's not because they care about the other raiders). Yes LFR was and still is bad for WoW.

 

If those players do that with LFR, then the only thing that would have been different if LFR had never existed is that they wouldn't have resubscribed at all. Players jumping in and out every patch is better than them not jumping in at all.

 

 

[thrag.9740]

No thanks. Raids are the best content in the game by far, and Anet should focus on making more of them that are more diverse (new mechanics, etc).

[Miellyn.6847]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"Miellyn.6847" said:

> > The conversion rate from LFR to normal is abyssmal.

>

> Why should there be a conversion from LFR to normal?

>

Because people like you still say that the current raid population will profit from an easy mode too. But if noone actually transition from easy to normal mode the only thing the current raiders get are even longer gaps between raids. That's why people who play them now are against it. People can start raiding even now and all the current population gets is a downgrade from the status quo.

> >People subscribe. play one time LFR and unsubscribe again until the next content patch. There is a reason LFR gets released per wing after the normal release (and it's not because they care about the other raiders). Yes LFR was and still is bad for WoW.

>

> If those players do that with LFR, then the only thing that would have been different if LFR had never existed is that they wouldn't have resubscribed at all. Players jumping in and out every patch is better than them not jumping in at all.

 

Only if the content model would be the same it is now. But you don't know that. Do you want LS -> Raid -> LS -> Raid? That's how WoW works and GW2 won't work with that.

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"Miellyn.6847" said:

>Because people like you still say that the current raid population will profit from an easy mode too.

 

And they would. If even a small amount of the players convert from easy to hard, that's still more people being added for that mode. On top of that, having more *total* players playing raids, even *if* it turns out that more of them stick with easy mode, it would justify offering *more* resources to the raid team, allowing them to speed up the development of new raids for both difficulty tiers. Still, even *if* no new benefits are added to normal mode, it would still be better for the game and players *overall.*

 

>But if noone actually transition from easy to normal mode the only thing the current raiders get are even longer gaps between raids.

 

There's still no reason to assume a longer gap.

 

>That's why people who play them now are against it.

 

Well that's preposterously selfish. "I would prefer you not have the mode at all than that I *might* have to wait *slightly* longer for the 6th wing available to me. . ."

 

>Do you want LS -> Raid -> LS -> Raid? That's how WoW works and GW2 won't work with that.

 

There's no reason that the release schedule should slip significantly from what we already have for either raids or LS. It's a moot point.