Sephylon.4938 Posted May 27, 2018 Share Posted May 27, 2018 > @"Malediktus.9250" said: > > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > > @"Walhalla.5473" said: > > > > @"TexZero.7910" said: > > > > > @"Grogba.6204" said: > > > > > I like this approach- Allows massive condi spam going outwards (Trio, Escort) while still preventing abuse. :+1: > > > > It also kills teamplay and removes any viable spots for necro's from raiding. > > > > > > > > But hey that's the goal right, can't have necro doing respectable damage. Gotta leave that to Ele, cause if we ain't running 4 necro's we'll for sure be back to the 4 Ele garbage. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The challenge here is to change epi in a way to still make it useful without busting scourge. Epi as it works is a really good add killer and it should stay this way but it shouldn't be abusable to bounce it back to the boss ( as much fun as it is, it can break encounters with add quite easily ), thats where my debuff idea came from. You could still spam epi like crazy to kill adds but the boss wouldn't melt like a snowball in hell. The next step to ensure that Scourge isn't screwed without epi is to ensure that its normal skill can do enough damage, which means buffing the stuff. > > > > Stuff such as........ > > Gonna have to give examples as specific as your nerf to so epi here or I'll assume the buff you want for scourge is a 10% axe buff to make power scourge useable > > It is the job of Anet's balance team to buff the class if they deem it necessary. We just make them aware of a glaring issue with the class in its current state. Something along these lines were said in a thread that asks how necros should be compensated if epi was ever nerfed. It's no wonder why some people don't want it touched. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TexZero.7910 Posted May 27, 2018 Share Posted May 27, 2018 > @"Walhalla.5473" said: > > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > > @"Walhalla.5473" said: > > > > @"TexZero.7910" said: > > > > > @"Grogba.6204" said: > > > > > I like this approach- Allows massive condi spam going outwards (Trio, Escort) while still preventing abuse. :+1: > > > > It also kills teamplay and removes any viable spots for necro's from raiding. > > > > > > > > But hey that's the goal right, can't have necro doing respectable damage. Gotta leave that to Ele, cause if we ain't running 4 necro's we'll for sure be back to the 4 Ele garbage. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The challenge here is to change epi in a way to still make it useful without busting scourge. Epi as it works is a really good add killer and it should stay this way but it shouldn't be abusable to bounce it back to the boss ( as much fun as it is, it can break encounters with add quite easily ), thats where my debuff idea came from. You could still spam epi like crazy to kill adds but the boss wouldn't melt like a snowball in hell. The next step to ensure that Scourge isn't screwed without epi is to ensure that its normal skill can do enough damage, which means buffing the stuff. > > > > Stuff such as........ > > Gonna have to give examples as specific as your nerf to so epi here or I'll assume the buff you want for scourge is a 10% axe buff to make power scourge useable > > Yeah, because a 10% axe buff is making everything considering necro viable..... > > Lets be serious here. The stuff here could be something like longer duration of the conditions inflicted from the condi skills and/or more stacks from those skills. You have some short term memory then (https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Game_updates/2017-12-12#Necromancer) Rending Claws: Increased damage by 13%. Ghastly Claws: Increased damage by 11%. Unholy Feast: Increased damage by 10%. It's a common theme for necromancer to get "compensation" in places it doesnt matter. Also, it's pretty clearly an Ele vs Necro thing or do you not see the tremendous Irony coming from the Ele community asking for an ICD to be placed on a Necro skill to inhibit their DPS....Because that clearly worked well for Meteor Shower right guys ? Or have you all forgotten how where your pitchforks landed on that type of nerf already. Adding ICD's to skills to prohibit their usage is dumb, and doesn't work. The only cases where Epi is OP is a case of Encounter design, not the skill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steki.1478 Posted May 27, 2018 Share Posted May 27, 2018 > @"TexZero.7910" said: > > @"Walhalla.5473" said: > > > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > > > @"Walhalla.5473" said: > > > > > @"TexZero.7910" said: > > > > > > @"Grogba.6204" said: > > > > > > I like this approach- Allows massive condi spam going outwards (Trio, Escort) while still preventing abuse. :+1: > > > > > It also kills teamplay and removes any viable spots for necro's from raiding. > > > > > > > > > > But hey that's the goal right, can't have necro doing respectable damage. Gotta leave that to Ele, cause if we ain't running 4 necro's we'll for sure be back to the 4 Ele garbage. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The challenge here is to change epi in a way to still make it useful without busting scourge. Epi as it works is a really good add killer and it should stay this way but it shouldn't be abusable to bounce it back to the boss ( as much fun as it is, it can break encounters with add quite easily ), thats where my debuff idea came from. You could still spam epi like crazy to kill adds but the boss wouldn't melt like a snowball in hell. The next step to ensure that Scourge isn't screwed without epi is to ensure that its normal skill can do enough damage, which means buffing the stuff. > > > > > > Stuff such as........ > > > Gonna have to give examples as specific as your nerf to so epi here or I'll assume the buff you want for scourge is a 10% axe buff to make power scourge useable > > > > Yeah, because a 10% axe buff is making everything considering necro viable..... > > > > Lets be serious here. The stuff here could be something like longer duration of the conditions inflicted from the condi skills and/or more stacks from those skills. > > You have some short term memory then > (https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Game_updates/2017-12-12#Necromancer) > Rending Claws: Increased damage by 13%. > Ghastly Claws: Increased damage by 11%. > Unholy Feast: Increased damage by 10%. > > It's a common theme for necromancer to get "compensation" in places it doesnt matter. > > Also, it's pretty clearly an Ele vs Necro thing or do you not see the tremendous Irony coming from the Ele community asking for an ICD to be placed on a Necro skill to inhibit their DPS....Because that clearly worked well for Meteor Shower right guys ? Or have you all forgotten how where your pitchforks landed on that type of nerf already. > > Adding ICD's to skills to prohibit their usage is dumb, and doesn't work. The only cases where Epi is OP is a case of Encounter design, not the skill. Icd on ele was added on skills that hit multiple times, which would translate into icd per condition transfered on epidemic, which is terrible in both cases. Now imagine that meteor shower gained additional hit every time you kill an add, or (even better example) additional hit every time other ele's MS hits the boss. Would be ridiculous dont you think? Well, that's exactly how epidemic works. Icd on epi isnt there to nerf the skill damage output (like on ele) or "prohibit usage", it would just prevent bouncing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sephylon.4938 Posted May 27, 2018 Share Posted May 27, 2018 > @"steki.1478" > Now imagine that meteor shower gained additional hit every time you kill an add What? You do know that epi transfers nothing if the target you're casting it on dies before the orbs reaches their next target right? >or (even better example) additional hit every time other ele's MS hits the boss. Would be ridiculous dont you think? Well, that's exactly how epidemic works. sure so long as the additional meteors deal no damage if no skills have been used. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steki.1478 Posted May 27, 2018 Share Posted May 27, 2018 > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > What? You do know that epi transfers nothing if the target you're casting it on dies before the orbs reaches their next target right? Which takes at least 2 seconds which is enough to bounce. > >or (even better example) additional hit every time other ele's MS hits the boss. Would be ridiculous dont you think? Well, that's exactly how epidemic works. > sure so long as the additional meteors deal no damage if no skills have been used. What? Anyways, you're comparing skills which have completely different functionality. The main thing they have in common is Anet failing to balance them. MS was strong even after ICD, epi is strong after they made it into projectiles. Now MS got nerfed again because it's strong on already strong build, but the fact that necro is under performing doesnt make epidemic bouncing any less broken. They certainly didnt make that change to nerf the class, they did it to stop bouncing and they failed with that. Wouldnt it be better for necro to be "viable" on most bosses instead of completely broken on few bosses with adds and garbage on others? Since it usually takes pugs months to get used to new meta, necro wont even be asked for in LFG. I thought necro players wanted to actually play necro in raids, not complain all the time how dps-focused class X performs better than them. Static groups are obviously a non factor since you could always do this in organized groups. However, as long as shroud, high base barrier and epidemic are a thing, that's not happening (and it shouldn't). There has to be some drawbacks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sephylon.4938 Posted May 27, 2018 Share Posted May 27, 2018 > @"steki.1478" said: > > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > > What? You do know that epi transfers nothing if the target you're casting it on dies before the orbs reaches their next target right? > > Which takes at least 2 seconds which is enough to bounce. > Trash mobs take less than a second to melt from condis. Unless you're bouncing from seekers, or mo's chess pieces you have precast epi to bounce it from my experience. > > >or (even better example) additional hit every time other ele's MS hits the boss. Would be ridiculous dont you think? Well, that's exactly how epidemic works. > > sure so long as the additional meteors deal no damage if no skills have been used. > > What? > > Anyways, you're comparing skills which have completely different functionality. The main thing they have in common is Anet failing to balance them. MS was strong even after ICD, epi is strong after they made it into projectiles. Now MS got nerfed again because it's strong on already strong build, but the fact that necro is under performing doesnt make epidemic bouncing any less broken. They certainly didnt make that change to nerf the class, they did it to stop bouncing and they failed with that. > > Wouldnt it be better for necro to be "viable" on most bosses instead of completely broken on few bosses with adds and garbage on others? Since it usually takes pugs months to get used to new meta, necro wont even be asked for in LFG. I thought necro players wanted to actually play necro in raids, not complain all the time how dps-focused class X performs better than them. Static groups are obviously a non factor since you could always do this in organized groups. However, as long as shroud, high base barrier and epidemic are a thing, that's not happening (and it shouldn't). There has to be some drawbacks. sure, suggest how. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steki.1478 Posted May 27, 2018 Share Posted May 27, 2018 > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > @"steki.1478" said: > > > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > > > > What? You do know that epi transfers nothing if the target you're casting it on dies before the orbs reaches their next target right? > > > > Which takes at least 2 seconds which is enough to bounce. > > > Trash mobs take less than a second to melt from condis. Unless you're bouncing from seekers, you have precast epi to bounce it from my experience. > > > > >or (even better example) additional hit every time other ele's MS hits the boss. Would be ridiculous dont you think? Well, that's exactly how epidemic works. > > > sure so long as the additional meteors deal no damage if no skills have been used. > > > > What? > > > > Anyways, you're comparing skills which have completely different functionality. The main thing they have in common is Anet failing to balance them. MS was strong even after ICD, epi is strong after they made it into projectiles. Now MS got nerfed again because it's strong on already strong build, but the fact that necro is under performing doesnt make epidemic bouncing any less broken. They certainly didnt make that change to nerf the class, they did it to stop bouncing and they failed with that. > > > > Wouldnt it be better for necro to be "viable" on most bosses instead of completely broken on few bosses with adds and garbage on others? Since it usually takes pugs months to get used to new meta, necro wont even be asked for in LFG. I thought necro players wanted to actually play necro in raids, not complain all the time how dps-focused class X performs better than them. Static groups are obviously a non factor since you could always do this in organized groups. However, as long as shroud, high base barrier and epidemic are a thing, that's not happening (and it shouldn't). There has to be some drawbacks. > > sure, suggest how. > > I did, but it's burried in amazing design of these forums. Was something along lines to reduce base barrier but improve scaling (like heals were once broken on dps tempest/druid). Give epi an SoI treatment so it always shares a set amount of condies when target has only 1 condition (adds still die somewhat fast, easier to use in solo play, but doesnt do 50k dmg per tick). Once that is set just buff all condi traits from scourge and make a definite choice of either dps or support, not both at once. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sephylon.4938 Posted May 27, 2018 Share Posted May 27, 2018 > @"steki.1478" said: > > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > > @"steki.1478" said: > > > > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > > > > > > What? You do know that epi transfers nothing if the target you're casting it on dies before the orbs reaches their next target right? > > > > > > Which takes at least 2 seconds which is enough to bounce. > > > > > Trash mobs take less than a second to melt from condis. Unless you're bouncing from seekers, you have precast epi to bounce it from my experience. > > > > > > >or (even better example) additional hit every time other ele's MS hits the boss. Would be ridiculous dont you think? Well, that's exactly how epidemic works. > > > > sure so long as the additional meteors deal no damage if no skills have been used. > > > > > > What? > > > > > > Anyways, you're comparing skills which have completely different functionality. The main thing they have in common is Anet failing to balance them. MS was strong even after ICD, epi is strong after they made it into projectiles. Now MS got nerfed again because it's strong on already strong build, but the fact that necro is under performing doesnt make epidemic bouncing any less broken. They certainly didnt make that change to nerf the class, they did it to stop bouncing and they failed with that. > > > > > > Wouldnt it be better for necro to be "viable" on most bosses instead of completely broken on few bosses with adds and garbage on others? Since it usually takes pugs months to get used to new meta, necro wont even be asked for in LFG. I thought necro players wanted to actually play necro in raids, not complain all the time how dps-focused class X performs better than them. Static groups are obviously a non factor since you could always do this in organized groups. However, as long as shroud, high base barrier and epidemic are a thing, that's not happening (and it shouldn't). There has to be some drawbacks. > > > > sure, suggest how. > > > > > > I did, but it's burried in amazing design of these forums. > > Was something along lines to reduce base barrier but improve scaling (like heals were once broken on dps tempest/druid). Give epi an SoI treatment so it always shares a set amount of condies when target has only 1 condition (adds still die somewhat fast, easier to use in solo play, but doesnt do 50k dmg per tick). Once that is set just buff all condi traits from scourge and make a definite choice of either dps or support, not both at once. > > ok, but epi is core necro, why does scourge have to be involved? Also that's more of a support buff, for 1 espec while nerfing a core skill that will also affect reaper, how will you compensate condi reaper and core necro for it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walhalla.5473 Posted May 27, 2018 Share Posted May 27, 2018 > @"TexZero.7910" said: > > @"Walhalla.5473" said: > > > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > > > @"Walhalla.5473" said: > > > > > @"TexZero.7910" said: > > > > > > @"Grogba.6204" said: > > > > > > I like this approach- Allows massive condi spam going outwards (Trio, Escort) while still preventing abuse. :+1: > > > > > It also kills teamplay and removes any viable spots for necro's from raiding. > > > > > > > > > > But hey that's the goal right, can't have necro doing respectable damage. Gotta leave that to Ele, cause if we ain't running 4 necro's we'll for sure be back to the 4 Ele garbage. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The challenge here is to change epi in a way to still make it useful without busting scourge. Epi as it works is a really good add killer and it should stay this way but it shouldn't be abusable to bounce it back to the boss ( as much fun as it is, it can break encounters with add quite easily ), thats where my debuff idea came from. You could still spam epi like crazy to kill adds but the boss wouldn't melt like a snowball in hell. The next step to ensure that Scourge isn't screwed without epi is to ensure that its normal skill can do enough damage, which means buffing the stuff. > > > > > > Stuff such as........ > > > Gonna have to give examples as specific as your nerf to so epi here or I'll assume the buff you want for scourge is a 10% axe buff to make power scourge useable > > > > Yeah, because a 10% axe buff is making everything considering necro viable..... > > > > Lets be serious here. The stuff here could be something like longer duration of the conditions inflicted from the condi skills and/or more stacks from those skills. > > You have some short term memory then > (https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Game_updates/2017-12-12#Necromancer) > Rending Claws: Increased damage by 13%. > Ghastly Claws: Increased damage by 11%. > Unholy Feast: Increased damage by 10%. > > It's a common theme for necromancer to get "compensation" in places it doesnt matter. > > Also, it's pretty clearly an Ele vs Necro thing or do you not see the tremendous Irony coming from the Ele community asking for an ICD to be placed on a Necro skill to inhibit their DPS....Because that clearly worked well for Meteor Shower right guys ? Or have you all forgotten how where your pitchforks landed on that type of nerf already. > > Adding ICD's to skills to prohibit their usage is dumb, and doesn't work. The only cases where Epi is OP is a case of Encounter design, not the skill. I'm not really talking about those axe buffs because they don't matter when we talk about condi necro ( Anet likes to buff them for power necro which... well needs buffs in other skills and directions ). And I don't care about the Ele vs. Necro stuff because thats stupid. In fact I don't play Ele and played Necro for quite a while. I like Necro but I don't like the fact that the class is so dependent on one skill and that this one skill changes Necro from "non-viable" to completely broken. Condi weapons need a buff to ensure that Necro can do around 33k single target dps on a benchmark and at the same time bouncing needs to go ( and also cutting the top DPS on those 40k+ dps builds, no class should go this high on just one target, no ele, no warrior, no necro, no one ). The Necro needs to be able to do good dps on quite a lot of fights without relying on one single utility skill to do that. And we need to stop pretending that the state of Necro right now is fine. It isn't. Necro right now is way too dependent on one skill which can be abused to be completely broken in quite a few fights and can even restrict the way anet can design boss fights. Necro needs to be able to perform well without epi. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steki.1478 Posted May 27, 2018 Share Posted May 27, 2018 > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > @"steki.1478" said: > > > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > > > @"steki.1478" said: > > > > > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > > > > > > > > What? You do know that epi transfers nothing if the target you're casting it on dies before the orbs reaches their next target right? > > > > > > > > Which takes at least 2 seconds which is enough to bounce. > > > > > > > Trash mobs take less than a second to melt from condis. Unless you're bouncing from seekers, you have precast epi to bounce it from my experience. > > > > > > > > >or (even better example) additional hit every time other ele's MS hits the boss. Would be ridiculous dont you think? Well, that's exactly how epidemic works. > > > > > sure so long as the additional meteors deal no damage if no skills have been used. > > > > > > > > What? > > > > > > > > Anyways, you're comparing skills which have completely different functionality. The main thing they have in common is Anet failing to balance them. MS was strong even after ICD, epi is strong after they made it into projectiles. Now MS got nerfed again because it's strong on already strong build, but the fact that necro is under performing doesnt make epidemic bouncing any less broken. They certainly didnt make that change to nerf the class, they did it to stop bouncing and they failed with that. > > > > > > > > Wouldnt it be better for necro to be "viable" on most bosses instead of completely broken on few bosses with adds and garbage on others? Since it usually takes pugs months to get used to new meta, necro wont even be asked for in LFG. I thought necro players wanted to actually play necro in raids, not complain all the time how dps-focused class X performs better than them. Static groups are obviously a non factor since you could always do this in organized groups. However, as long as shroud, high base barrier and epidemic are a thing, that's not happening (and it shouldn't). There has to be some drawbacks. > > > > > > sure, suggest how. > > > > > > > > > > I did, but it's burried in amazing design of these forums. > > > > Was something along lines to reduce base barrier but improve scaling (like heals were once broken on dps tempest/druid). Give epi an SoI treatment so it always shares a set amount of condies when target has only 1 condition (adds still die somewhat fast, easier to use in solo play, but doesnt do 50k dmg per tick). Once that is set just buff all condi traits from scourge and make a definite choice of either dps or support, not both at once. > > > > > > ok, but epi is core necro, why does scourge have to be involved? Also that's more of a support buff, for 1 espec while nerfing a core skill that will also affect reaper, how will you compensate condi reaper and core necro for it? Both condi necro and reaper are non existant anyways. Changing epi and buffing scourge makes scourge a dedicated condi spec. You dont need every elite spec to do the same thing. And it wouldn't really be a nerf. Necro and reaper can mostly stack bleed and poison so their epi is weak to begin with. With SoI-like epidemic you would need only 1 burning stack and you would instantly transfer multiple stacks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sephylon.4938 Posted May 27, 2018 Share Posted May 27, 2018 > @"steki.1478" said: > > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > > @"steki.1478" said: > > > > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > > > > @"steki.1478" said: > > > > > > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > > > > > > > > > > What? You do know that epi transfers nothing if the target you're casting it on dies before the orbs reaches their next target right? > > > > > > > > > > Which takes at least 2 seconds which is enough to bounce. > > > > > > > > > Trash mobs take less than a second to melt from condis. Unless you're bouncing from seekers, you have precast epi to bounce it from my experience. > > > > > > > > > > >or (even better example) additional hit every time other ele's MS hits the boss. Would be ridiculous dont you think? Well, that's exactly how epidemic works. > > > > > > sure so long as the additional meteors deal no damage if no skills have been used. > > > > > > > > > > What? > > > > > > > > > > Anyways, you're comparing skills which have completely different functionality. The main thing they have in common is Anet failing to balance them. MS was strong even after ICD, epi is strong after they made it into projectiles. Now MS got nerfed again because it's strong on already strong build, but the fact that necro is under performing doesnt make epidemic bouncing any less broken. They certainly didnt make that change to nerf the class, they did it to stop bouncing and they failed with that. > > > > > > > > > > Wouldnt it be better for necro to be "viable" on most bosses instead of completely broken on few bosses with adds and garbage on others? Since it usually takes pugs months to get used to new meta, necro wont even be asked for in LFG. I thought necro players wanted to actually play necro in raids, not complain all the time how dps-focused class X performs better than them. Static groups are obviously a non factor since you could always do this in organized groups. However, as long as shroud, high base barrier and epidemic are a thing, that's not happening (and it shouldn't). There has to be some drawbacks. > > > > > > > > sure, suggest how. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I did, but it's burried in amazing design of these forums. > > > > > > Was something along lines to reduce base barrier but improve scaling (like heals were once broken on dps tempest/druid). Give epi an SoI treatment so it always shares a set amount of condies when target has only 1 condition (adds still die somewhat fast, easier to use in solo play, but doesnt do 50k dmg per tick). Once that is set just buff all condi traits from scourge and make a definite choice of either dps or support, not both at once. > > > > > > > > > > ok, but epi is core necro, why does scourge have to be involved? Also that's more of a support buff, for 1 espec while nerfing a core skill that will also affect reaper, how will you compensate condi reaper and core necro for it? > > Both condi necro and reaper are non existant anyways. Changing epi and buffing scourge makes scourge a dedicated condi spec. You dont need every elite spec to do the same thing. > > And it wouldn't really be a nerf. Necro and reaper can mostly stack bleed and poison so their epi is weak to begin with. With SoI-like epidemic you would need only 1 burning stack and you would instantly transfer multiple stacks. So let me get this straight, you want to nerf a skill that's weak on 2/3 of the build that can use it, all because 1 build is op with it, without compensating the others because "they are non existant anyway", rather than just nerfing the 1 build to be better at supporting rather than condi stacking so their epi won't be as situationally op as it is now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TexZero.7910 Posted May 27, 2018 Share Posted May 27, 2018 > @"Walhalla.5473" said: > The Necro needs to be able to do good dps on quite a lot of fights without relying on one single utility skill to do that. And we need to stop pretending that the state of Necro right now is fine. It isn't. Necro right now is way too dependent on one skill which can be abused to be completely broken in quite a few fights and can even restrict the way anet can design boss fights. > Necro needs to be able to perform well without epi. I disagree with a lot of this premise. Necro has a defined niche being stronger than many other roles under very specific conditions, this is fine. Necro isn't abusing the skill but rather encounter design that has mobs spawns with excessive health pools which plays into condition damages role and favor. It's not even something that as you claim restricts boss design but rather enforces the need for clear combat focused design at the start with story elements being secondary. Necro does need to perform better, with epi not without it. Scourge needs a substantial change to be more of the support spec it was labeled as and Reaper specifically need to have greater damage output for how slow it's attacks and ultimately physical damage ramp up are. The only change base necro needs is to scepter which for some reason can never have nice things and gets buffed and nerfed in an endless cycle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steki.1478 Posted May 27, 2018 Share Posted May 27, 2018 > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > @"steki.1478" said: > > > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > > > @"steki.1478" said: > > > > > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > > > > > @"steki.1478" said: > > > > > > > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > What? You do know that epi transfers nothing if the target you're casting it on dies before the orbs reaches their next target right? > > > > > > > > > > > > Which takes at least 2 seconds which is enough to bounce. > > > > > > > > > > > Trash mobs take less than a second to melt from condis. Unless you're bouncing from seekers, you have precast epi to bounce it from my experience. > > > > > > > > > > > > >or (even better example) additional hit every time other ele's MS hits the boss. Would be ridiculous dont you think? Well, that's exactly how epidemic works. > > > > > > > sure so long as the additional meteors deal no damage if no skills have been used. > > > > > > > > > > > > What? > > > > > > > > > > > > Anyways, you're comparing skills which have completely different functionality. The main thing they have in common is Anet failing to balance them. MS was strong even after ICD, epi is strong after they made it into projectiles. Now MS got nerfed again because it's strong on already strong build, but the fact that necro is under performing doesnt make epidemic bouncing any less broken. They certainly didnt make that change to nerf the class, they did it to stop bouncing and they failed with that. > > > > > > > > > > > > Wouldnt it be better for necro to be "viable" on most bosses instead of completely broken on few bosses with adds and garbage on others? Since it usually takes pugs months to get used to new meta, necro wont even be asked for in LFG. I thought necro players wanted to actually play necro in raids, not complain all the time how dps-focused class X performs better than them. Static groups are obviously a non factor since you could always do this in organized groups. However, as long as shroud, high base barrier and epidemic are a thing, that's not happening (and it shouldn't). There has to be some drawbacks. > > > > > > > > > > sure, suggest how. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I did, but it's burried in amazing design of these forums. > > > > > > > > Was something along lines to reduce base barrier but improve scaling (like heals were once broken on dps tempest/druid). Give epi an SoI treatment so it always shares a set amount of condies when target has only 1 condition (adds still die somewhat fast, easier to use in solo play, but doesnt do 50k dmg per tick). Once that is set just buff all condi traits from scourge and make a definite choice of either dps or support, not both at once. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ok, but epi is core necro, why does scourge have to be involved? Also that's more of a support buff, for 1 espec while nerfing a core skill that will also affect reaper, how will you compensate condi reaper and core necro for it? > > > > Both condi necro and reaper are non existant anyways. Changing epi and buffing scourge makes scourge a dedicated condi spec. You dont need every elite spec to do the same thing. > > > > And it wouldn't really be a nerf. Necro and reaper can mostly stack bleed and poison so their epi is weak to begin with. With SoI-like epidemic you would need only 1 burning stack and you would instantly transfer multiple stacks. > > So let me get this straight, you want to nerf a skill that's weak on 2/3 of the build that can use it, all because 1 build is op with it, without compensating the others because "they are non existant anyway", rather than just nerfing the 1 build to be better at supporting rather than condi stacking so their epi won't be as situationally op as it is now? Yes because scourge loses shroud which makes it perfect candidate for dps spec. There's also nothing to compensate on builds that dont even use epi. Also, why would necro get compensation for condi nerf when it can trait into scourge and have better condi damage? Reaper is power focused anyways. Not to mention the existance of 10k hp shroud. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sephylon.4938 Posted May 27, 2018 Share Posted May 27, 2018 > @"steki.1478" said: > > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > > @"steki.1478" said: > > > > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > > > > @"steki.1478" said: > > > > > > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > > > > > > @"steki.1478" said: > > > > > > > > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What? You do know that epi transfers nothing if the target you're casting it on dies before the orbs reaches their next target right? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Which takes at least 2 seconds which is enough to bounce. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Trash mobs take less than a second to melt from condis. Unless you're bouncing from seekers, you have precast epi to bounce it from my experience. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >or (even better example) additional hit every time other ele's MS hits the boss. Would be ridiculous dont you think? Well, that's exactly how epidemic works. > > > > > > > > sure so long as the additional meteors deal no damage if no skills have been used. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Anyways, you're comparing skills which have completely different functionality. The main thing they have in common is Anet failing to balance them. MS was strong even after ICD, epi is strong after they made it into projectiles. Now MS got nerfed again because it's strong on already strong build, but the fact that necro is under performing doesnt make epidemic bouncing any less broken. They certainly didnt make that change to nerf the class, they did it to stop bouncing and they failed with that. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Wouldnt it be better for necro to be "viable" on most bosses instead of completely broken on few bosses with adds and garbage on others? Since it usually takes pugs months to get used to new meta, necro wont even be asked for in LFG. I thought necro players wanted to actually play necro in raids, not complain all the time how dps-focused class X performs better than them. Static groups are obviously a non factor since you could always do this in organized groups. However, as long as shroud, high base barrier and epidemic are a thing, that's not happening (and it shouldn't). There has to be some drawbacks. > > > > > > > > > > > > sure, suggest how. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I did, but it's burried in amazing design of these forums. > > > > > > > > > > Was something along lines to reduce base barrier but improve scaling (like heals were once broken on dps tempest/druid). Give epi an SoI treatment so it always shares a set amount of condies when target has only 1 condition (adds still die somewhat fast, easier to use in solo play, but doesnt do 50k dmg per tick). Once that is set just buff all condi traits from scourge and make a definite choice of either dps or support, not both at once. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ok, but epi is core necro, why does scourge have to be involved? Also that's more of a support buff, for 1 espec while nerfing a core skill that will also affect reaper, how will you compensate condi reaper and core necro for it? > > > > > > Both condi necro and reaper are non existant anyways. Changing epi and buffing scourge makes scourge a dedicated condi spec. You dont need every elite spec to do the same thing. > > > > > > And it wouldn't really be a nerf. Necro and reaper can mostly stack bleed and poison so their epi is weak to begin with. With SoI-like epidemic you would need only 1 burning stack and you would instantly transfer multiple stacks. > > > > So let me get this straight, you want to nerf a skill that's weak on 2/3 of the build that can use it, all because 1 build is op with it, without compensating the others because "they are non existant anyway", rather than just nerfing the 1 build to be better at supporting rather than condi stacking so their epi won't be as situationally op as it is now? > > Yes because scourge loses shroud which makes it perfect candidate for dps spec. There's also nothing to compensate on builds that dont even use epi. And yet the nerf you're suggesting for it is going to demand that it takes healing power to make its barriers if any use. How exactly is that a buff to compensate for the loss of epi? How exactly is scourge going to exist as a dps spec when it's already the bottom of the totem pole of dps? And you still want to turn it into a support spec that barely deals dps on its own, and can't easily heal other players unless adds are present to fuel the lf you need to spam transfusion, or use dagger/staff. > Also, why would necro get compensation for condi nerf when it can trait into scourge and have better condi damage? Reaper is power focused anyways. Not to mention the existance of 10k hp shroud. Because epi does not belong to just scourge, and you're asking to nerf the other 2 specs by proxy just because epi is op on scourge when stacked. You can say reaper is power focused as much as you want, but until it gets proper buffs to make it proper competitive power build, its only build that is anywhere near competitive is condi. You seem to want to just treat the symptoms of power creep that scourge brought rather than addressing the power creep itself Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voltekka.2375 Posted May 27, 2018 Share Posted May 27, 2018 > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > @"steki.1478" said: > > > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > > > @"steki.1478" said: > > > > > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > > > > > > > > What? You do know that epi transfers nothing if the target you're casting it on dies before the orbs reaches their next target right? > > > > > > > > Which takes at least 2 seconds which is enough to bounce. > > > > > > > Trash mobs take less than a second to melt from condis. Unless you're bouncing from seekers, you have precast epi to bounce it from my experience. > > > > > > > > >or (even better example) additional hit every time other ele's MS hits the boss. Would be ridiculous dont you think? Well, that's exactly how epidemic works. > > > > > sure so long as the additional meteors deal no damage if no skills have been used. > > > > > > > > What? > > > > > > > > Anyways, you're comparing skills which have completely different functionality. The main thing they have in common is Anet failing to balance them. MS was strong even after ICD, epi is strong after they made it into projectiles. Now MS got nerfed again because it's strong on already strong build, but the fact that necro is under performing doesnt make epidemic bouncing any less broken. They certainly didnt make that change to nerf the class, they did it to stop bouncing and they failed with that. > > > > > > > > Wouldnt it be better for necro to be "viable" on most bosses instead of completely broken on few bosses with adds and garbage on others? Since it usually takes pugs months to get used to new meta, necro wont even be asked for in LFG. I thought necro players wanted to actually play necro in raids, not complain all the time how dps-focused class X performs better than them. Static groups are obviously a non factor since you could always do this in organized groups. However, as long as shroud, high base barrier and epidemic are a thing, that's not happening (and it shouldn't). There has to be some drawbacks. > > > > > > sure, suggest how. > > > > > > > > > > I did, but it's burried in amazing design of these forums. > > > > Was something along lines to reduce base barrier but improve scaling (like heals were once broken on dps tempest/druid). Give epi an SoI treatment so it always shares a set amount of condies when target has only 1 condition (adds still die somewhat fast, easier to use in solo play, but doesnt do 50k dmg per tick). Once that is set just buff all condi traits from scourge and make a definite choice of either dps or support, not both at once. > > > > > > ok, but epi is core necro, why does scourge have to be involved? Also that's more of a support buff, for 1 espec while nerfing a core skill that will also affect reaper, how will you compensate condi reaper and core necro for it? Because scourge has a ridiculous amount of different high damaging condies available to spam (burning torment mainly, bleeding poison to a lesser degree) instead of core nec or reaper who had mainly bleeding (less dmg) . Condi reaper is dead. May as well make power reaper viable Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sephylon.4938 Posted May 27, 2018 Share Posted May 27, 2018 > @"Voltekka.2375" said: > > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > > @"steki.1478" said: > > > > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > > > > @"steki.1478" said: > > > > > > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > > > > > > > > > > What? You do know that epi transfers nothing if the target you're casting it on dies before the orbs reaches their next target right? > > > > > > > > > > Which takes at least 2 seconds which is enough to bounce. > > > > > > > > > Trash mobs take less than a second to melt from condis. Unless you're bouncing from seekers, you have precast epi to bounce it from my experience. > > > > > > > > > > >or (even better example) additional hit every time other ele's MS hits the boss. Would be ridiculous dont you think? Well, that's exactly how epidemic works. > > > > > > sure so long as the additional meteors deal no damage if no skills have been used. > > > > > > > > > > What? > > > > > > > > > > Anyways, you're comparing skills which have completely different functionality. The main thing they have in common is Anet failing to balance them. MS was strong even after ICD, epi is strong after they made it into projectiles. Now MS got nerfed again because it's strong on already strong build, but the fact that necro is under performing doesnt make epidemic bouncing any less broken. They certainly didnt make that change to nerf the class, they did it to stop bouncing and they failed with that. > > > > > > > > > > Wouldnt it be better for necro to be "viable" on most bosses instead of completely broken on few bosses with adds and garbage on others? Since it usually takes pugs months to get used to new meta, necro wont even be asked for in LFG. I thought necro players wanted to actually play necro in raids, not complain all the time how dps-focused class X performs better than them. Static groups are obviously a non factor since you could always do this in organized groups. However, as long as shroud, high base barrier and epidemic are a thing, that's not happening (and it shouldn't). There has to be some drawbacks. > > > > > > > > sure, suggest how. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I did, but it's burried in amazing design of these forums. > > > > > > Was something along lines to reduce base barrier but improve scaling (like heals were once broken on dps tempest/druid). Give epi an SoI treatment so it always shares a set amount of condies when target has only 1 condition (adds still die somewhat fast, easier to use in solo play, but doesnt do 50k dmg per tick). Once that is set just buff all condi traits from scourge and make a definite choice of either dps or support, not both at once. > > > > > > > > > > ok, but epi is core necro, why does scourge have to be involved? Also that's more of a support buff, for 1 espec while nerfing a core skill that will also affect reaper, how will you compensate condi reaper and core necro for it? > > Because scourge has a ridiculous amount of different high damaging condies available to spam (burning torment mainly, bleeding poison to a lesser degree) instead of core nec or reaper who had mainly bleeding (less dmg) . Condi reaper is dead. May as well make power reaper viable so nerf that and leave epi alone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steki.1478 Posted May 27, 2018 Share Posted May 27, 2018 > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > so nerf that and leave epi alone Ok, nerf scourge and problem solved. /Thread Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sephylon.4938 Posted May 27, 2018 Share Posted May 27, 2018 > @"steki.1478" said: > > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > > so nerf that and leave epi alone > > Ok, nerf scourge and problem solved. > > /Thread great, now how will you do that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malediktus.9250 Posted May 27, 2018 Author Share Posted May 27, 2018 > @"TexZero.7910" said: > > @"Walhalla.5473" said: > > The Necro needs to be able to do good dps on quite a lot of fights without relying on one single utility skill to do that. And we need to stop pretending that the state of Necro right now is fine. It isn't. Necro right now is way too dependent on one skill which can be abused to be completely broken in quite a few fights and can even restrict the way anet can design boss fights. > > Necro needs to be able to perform well without epi. > > I disagree with a lot of this premise. Necro has a defined niche being stronger than many other roles under very specific conditions, this is fine. > Necro isn't abusing the skill but rather encounter design that has mobs spawns with excessive health pools which plays into condition damages role and favor. It's not even something that as you claim restricts boss design but rather enforces the need for clear combat focused design at the start with story elements being secondary. > > Necro does need to perform better, with epi not without it. Scourge needs a substantial change to be more of the support spec it was labeled as and Reaper specifically need to have greater damage output for how slow it's attacks and ultimately physical damage ramp up are. The only change base necro needs is to scepter which for some reason can never have nice things and gets buffed and nerfed in an endless cycle. > > It is not a niche if any raid encounter that makes use of adds benefits from epi bouncing. And adds will never go away since they have always been an integral part of raid encounters in any game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TexZero.7910 Posted May 28, 2018 Share Posted May 28, 2018 > @"Malediktus.9250" said: > It is not a niche if any raid encounter that makes use of adds benefits from epi bouncing. And adds will never go away since they have always been an integral part of raid encounters in any game. You know what else is integral to combat in this game that's woefully under-represented on AI. Condition Cleanse,Transfer, Projectile Destruction and Self Healing. It poor encounter and AI design for the sake of story telling. If the Raid team actually had a sit down and designed with conditions in mind (which they clearly havent as no boss does any of the above with the exception of transition phases..) then this would be less of a problem. Instead we have bosses with near permanant stacks due to encounters having omni-present adds and no condition cleanses. This is a case of the players doing whats right and using the design of the encounter against itself, not Epidemic being OP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miellyn.6847 Posted May 28, 2018 Share Posted May 28, 2018 > @"TexZero.7910" said: > > @"Malediktus.9250" said: > > It is not a niche if any raid encounter that makes use of adds benefits from epi bouncing. And adds will never go away since they have always been an integral part of raid encounters in any game. > > You know what else is integral to combat in this game that's woefully under-represented on AI. Condition Cleanse,Transfer, Projectile Destruction and Self Healing. > > It poor encounter and AI design for the sake of story telling. If the Raid team actually had a sit down and designed with conditions in mind (which they clearly havent as no boss does any of the above with the exception of transition phases..) then this would be less of a problem. Instead we have bosses with near permanant stacks due to encounters having omni-present adds and no condition cleanses. This is a case of the players doing whats right and using the design of the encounter against itself, not Epidemic being OP. > Of course encounters are design with conditions in mind. Just look at VG or Sabetha. The problem is when a boss uses condi cleanse regualary you just render all condition builds useless or very unfavorable on this boss. Conditions need to tick during phases because of their ramp up time or power will reign superior on all bosses. Or increase the HP of bosses so phases take longer and condition damage can catch up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimon.7840 Posted May 28, 2018 Share Posted May 28, 2018 > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > @"steki.1478" said: > > > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > > > @"steki.1478" said: > > > > > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > > > > > @"steki.1478" said: > > > > > > > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > What? You do know that epi transfers nothing if the target you're casting it on dies before the orbs reaches their next target right? > > > > > > > > > > > > Which takes at least 2 seconds which is enough to bounce. > > > > > > > > > > > Trash mobs take less than a second to melt from condis. Unless you're bouncing from seekers, you have precast epi to bounce it from my experience. > > > > > > > > > > > > >or (even better example) additional hit every time other ele's MS hits the boss. Would be ridiculous dont you think? Well, that's exactly how epidemic works. > > > > > > > sure so long as the additional meteors deal no damage if no skills have been used. > > > > > > > > > > > > What? > > > > > > > > > > > > Anyways, you're comparing skills which have completely different functionality. The main thing they have in common is Anet failing to balance them. MS was strong even after ICD, epi is strong after they made it into projectiles. Now MS got nerfed again because it's strong on already strong build, but the fact that necro is under performing doesnt make epidemic bouncing any less broken. They certainly didnt make that change to nerf the class, they did it to stop bouncing and they failed with that. > > > > > > > > > > > > Wouldnt it be better for necro to be "viable" on most bosses instead of completely broken on few bosses with adds and garbage on others? Since it usually takes pugs months to get used to new meta, necro wont even be asked for in LFG. I thought necro players wanted to actually play necro in raids, not complain all the time how dps-focused class X performs better than them. Static groups are obviously a non factor since you could always do this in organized groups. However, as long as shroud, high base barrier and epidemic are a thing, that's not happening (and it shouldn't). There has to be some drawbacks. > > > > > > > > > > sure, suggest how. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I did, but it's burried in amazing design of these forums. > > > > > > > > Was something along lines to reduce base barrier but improve scaling (like heals were once broken on dps tempest/druid). Give epi an SoI treatment so it always shares a set amount of condies when target has only 1 condition (adds still die somewhat fast, easier to use in solo play, but doesnt do 50k dmg per tick). Once that is set just buff all condi traits from scourge and make a definite choice of either dps or support, not both at once. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ok, but epi is core necro, why does scourge have to be involved? Also that's more of a support buff, for 1 espec while nerfing a core skill that will also affect reaper, how will you compensate condi reaper and core necro for it? > > > > Both condi necro and reaper are non existant anyways. Changing epi and buffing scourge makes scourge a dedicated condi spec. You dont need every elite spec to do the same thing. > > > > And it wouldn't really be a nerf. Necro and reaper can mostly stack bleed and poison so their epi is weak to begin with. With SoI-like epidemic you would need only 1 burning stack and you would instantly transfer multiple stacks. > > So let me get this straight, you want to nerf a skill that's weak on 2/3 of the build that can use it, all because 1 build is op with it, without compensating the others because "they are non existant anyway", rather than just nerfing the 1 build to be better at supporting rather than condi stacking so their epi won't be as situationally op as it is now? Just don't try. Steki seems like a big troll to me that just wants his class to be top DPS and other aren't allowed to do any DPS. I really can't understand why everyone is crying bout necro. Because he's finally good at 1/3 of the encounters in raids? And only while stacking necro? But warrior is allowed to do even more DPS on 2/3 of the encounters? And don't gimme dhuum cm as example. You do this encounter once. And after that only normal mode cause it doesn't offer better loot. Is necro good in normal mode? No it's overwhelmed by weavers, holosmiths, Dragonhunters, spellbreakers and mirages. What a joke. I rlly can't take @"steki.1478" seriously. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TexZero.7910 Posted May 28, 2018 Share Posted May 28, 2018 > @"Miellyn.6847" said: > Of course encounters are design with conditions in mind. Just look at VG or Sabetha. The problem is when a boss uses condi cleanse regualary you just render all condition builds useless or very unfavorable on this boss. Conditions need to tick during phases because of their ramp up time or power will reign superior on all bosses. Or increase the HP of bosses so phases take longer and condition damage can catch up. If you think Karde and Red Guardian are good examples of designing around conditions then that's part of the problem. Just having mid-bosses with high toughness and low vitality don't make for good design. It just makes condi's look better than they are. It doesn't have them purge conditions forcing re-application, It doesn't have them transfer conditions to another source thus making use of a game mechanic that's lacking entirely it doesn't manage boons to mitigate incoming conditions or force a boon strip/corruption. There's various under utilized game mechanics that can hamper without out killing off Epidemic and it all starts in Encounter design which to this point has been basic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miellyn.6847 Posted May 28, 2018 Share Posted May 28, 2018 > @"TexZero.7910" said: > > @"Miellyn.6847" said: > > Of course encounters are design with conditions in mind. Just look at VG or Sabetha. The problem is when a boss uses condi cleanse regualary you just render all condition builds useless or very unfavorable on this boss. Conditions need to tick during phases because of their ramp up time or power will reign superior on all bosses. Or increase the HP of bosses so phases take longer and condition damage can catch up. > > If you think Karde and Red Guardian are good examples of designing around conditions then that's part of the problem. Just having mid-bosses with high toughness and low vitality don't make for good design. It just makes condi's look better than they are. It doesn't have them purge conditions forcing re-application, It doesn't have them transfer conditions to another source thus making use of a game mechanic that's lacking entirely it doesn't manage boons to mitigate incoming conditions or force a boon strip/corruption. > > There's various under utilized game mechanics that can hamper without out killing off Epidemic and it all starts in Encounter design which to this point has been basic. > > The problem is: Unless you force people to use condition damage in conjuction with those mechanics you just make conditions worse and power better. So you reduce the use of epidemic by killing of condition damage. The strength of epidemic is that it allows you to bypass the weakness of conditions in PvE, the ramp up time. Conditions are meant to deal more damage after the ramp up time. Normalise condition damage and power damage and reduce the ramp up time and epidemic will see less play. Boons in a raid scenario are useless anyway with the boon strip we got with PoF. They will be removed instantly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walhalla.5473 Posted May 28, 2018 Share Posted May 28, 2018 > @"Nimon.7840" said: > > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > > @"steki.1478" said: > > > > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > > > > @"steki.1478" said: > > > > > > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > > > > > > @"steki.1478" said: > > > > > > > > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What? You do know that epi transfers nothing if the target you're casting it on dies before the orbs reaches their next target right? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Which takes at least 2 seconds which is enough to bounce. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Trash mobs take less than a second to melt from condis. Unless you're bouncing from seekers, you have precast epi to bounce it from my experience. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >or (even better example) additional hit every time other ele's MS hits the boss. Would be ridiculous dont you think? Well, that's exactly how epidemic works. > > > > > > > > sure so long as the additional meteors deal no damage if no skills have been used. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Anyways, you're comparing skills which have completely different functionality. The main thing they have in common is Anet failing to balance them. MS was strong even after ICD, epi is strong after they made it into projectiles. Now MS got nerfed again because it's strong on already strong build, but the fact that necro is under performing doesnt make epidemic bouncing any less broken. They certainly didnt make that change to nerf the class, they did it to stop bouncing and they failed with that. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Wouldnt it be better for necro to be "viable" on most bosses instead of completely broken on few bosses with adds and garbage on others? Since it usually takes pugs months to get used to new meta, necro wont even be asked for in LFG. I thought necro players wanted to actually play necro in raids, not complain all the time how dps-focused class X performs better than them. Static groups are obviously a non factor since you could always do this in organized groups. However, as long as shroud, high base barrier and epidemic are a thing, that's not happening (and it shouldn't). There has to be some drawbacks. > > > > > > > > > > > > sure, suggest how. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I did, but it's burried in amazing design of these forums. > > > > > > > > > > Was something along lines to reduce base barrier but improve scaling (like heals were once broken on dps tempest/druid). Give epi an SoI treatment so it always shares a set amount of condies when target has only 1 condition (adds still die somewhat fast, easier to use in solo play, but doesnt do 50k dmg per tick). Once that is set just buff all condi traits from scourge and make a definite choice of either dps or support, not both at once. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ok, but epi is core necro, why does scourge have to be involved? Also that's more of a support buff, for 1 espec while nerfing a core skill that will also affect reaper, how will you compensate condi reaper and core necro for it? > > > > > > Both condi necro and reaper are non existant anyways. Changing epi and buffing scourge makes scourge a dedicated condi spec. You dont need every elite spec to do the same thing. > > > > > > And it wouldn't really be a nerf. Necro and reaper can mostly stack bleed and poison so their epi is weak to begin with. With SoI-like epidemic you would need only 1 burning stack and you would instantly transfer multiple stacks. > > > > So let me get this straight, you want to nerf a skill that's weak on 2/3 of the build that can use it, all because 1 build is op with it, without compensating the others because "they are non existant anyway", rather than just nerfing the 1 build to be better at supporting rather than condi stacking so their epi won't be as situationally op as it is now? > > Just don't try. Steki seems like a big troll to me that just wants his class to be top DPS and other aren't allowed to do any DPS. > > I really can't understand why everyone is crying bout necro. Because he's finally good at 1/3 of the encounters in raids? And only while stacking necro? Good ( or broken ) at 1/3 of the encounters and only when class stacking.... Not nearly good enough. Hence why talk about making Necros damage much more independent from Epi. I want Necro to be good without the need of class stacking and also at more than 1/3 of the fights, but for this something needs to happen to this class, and Epi needs a change. > @"TexZero.7910" said: > I disagree with a lot of this premise. Necro has a defined niche being stronger than many other roles under very specific conditions, this is fine. Being non-viable at most fights while dishing out damage that borders on insanity in the ones it does well ( while also needing class stacking ) is not even a niche. Its bad balancing and covering up the fact that the class itself is not doing well and needs some love. And epi right now is capable of restricting boss fight designs. You can't really do boss fights with more than one boss at a time or fights where there are multiple bosses with a shared healthpool without considering how make sure that epi isn't breaking that fight. Again Necro needs to be good without relying on that one skill that capable of breaking encounters. 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