Feanor.2358 Posted May 28, 2018 Share Posted May 28, 2018 > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > @"Voltekka.2375" said: > > > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > > > @"steki.1478" said: > > > > > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > > > > > @"steki.1478" said: > > > > > > > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > What? You do know that epi transfers nothing if the target you're casting it on dies before the orbs reaches their next target right? > > > > > > > > > > > > Which takes at least 2 seconds which is enough to bounce. > > > > > > > > > > > Trash mobs take less than a second to melt from condis. Unless you're bouncing from seekers, you have precast epi to bounce it from my experience. > > > > > > > > > > > > >or (even better example) additional hit every time other ele's MS hits the boss. Would be ridiculous dont you think? Well, that's exactly how epidemic works. > > > > > > > sure so long as the additional meteors deal no damage if no skills have been used. > > > > > > > > > > > > What? > > > > > > > > > > > > Anyways, you're comparing skills which have completely different functionality. The main thing they have in common is Anet failing to balance them. MS was strong even after ICD, epi is strong after they made it into projectiles. Now MS got nerfed again because it's strong on already strong build, but the fact that necro is under performing doesnt make epidemic bouncing any less broken. They certainly didnt make that change to nerf the class, they did it to stop bouncing and they failed with that. > > > > > > > > > > > > Wouldnt it be better for necro to be "viable" on most bosses instead of completely broken on few bosses with adds and garbage on others? Since it usually takes pugs months to get used to new meta, necro wont even be asked for in LFG. I thought necro players wanted to actually play necro in raids, not complain all the time how dps-focused class X performs better than them. Static groups are obviously a non factor since you could always do this in organized groups. However, as long as shroud, high base barrier and epidemic are a thing, that's not happening (and it shouldn't). There has to be some drawbacks. > > > > > > > > > > sure, suggest how. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I did, but it's burried in amazing design of these forums. > > > > > > > > Was something along lines to reduce base barrier but improve scaling (like heals were once broken on dps tempest/druid). Give epi an SoI treatment so it always shares a set amount of condies when target has only 1 condition (adds still die somewhat fast, easier to use in solo play, but doesnt do 50k dmg per tick). Once that is set just buff all condi traits from scourge and make a definite choice of either dps or support, not both at once. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ok, but epi is core necro, why does scourge have to be involved? Also that's more of a support buff, for 1 espec while nerfing a core skill that will also affect reaper, how will you compensate condi reaper and core necro for it? > > > > Because scourge has a ridiculous amount of different high damaging condies available to spam (burning torment mainly, bleeding poison to a lesser degree) instead of core nec or reaper who had mainly bleeding (less dmg) . Condi reaper is dead. May as well make power reaper viable > > so nerf that and leave epi alone So instead of fixing a broken skill, you propose nerfing the whole elite spec, which already is only useful because of said broken skill in PvE. Smart choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sephylon.4938 Posted May 28, 2018 Share Posted May 28, 2018 > @"Walhalla.5473" said: > > @"Nimon.7840" said: > > > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > > > @"steki.1478" said: > > > > > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > > > > > @"steki.1478" said: > > > > > > > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > > > > > > > @"steki.1478" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What? You do know that epi transfers nothing if the target you're casting it on dies before the orbs reaches their next target right? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Which takes at least 2 seconds which is enough to bounce. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Trash mobs take less than a second to melt from condis. Unless you're bouncing from seekers, you have precast epi to bounce it from my experience. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >or (even better example) additional hit every time other ele's MS hits the boss. Would be ridiculous dont you think? Well, that's exactly how epidemic works. > > > > > > > > > sure so long as the additional meteors deal no damage if no skills have been used. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Anyways, you're comparing skills which have completely different functionality. The main thing they have in common is Anet failing to balance them. MS was strong even after ICD, epi is strong after they made it into projectiles. Now MS got nerfed again because it's strong on already strong build, but the fact that necro is under performing doesnt make epidemic bouncing any less broken. They certainly didnt make that change to nerf the class, they did it to stop bouncing and they failed with that. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Wouldnt it be better for necro to be "viable" on most bosses instead of completely broken on few bosses with adds and garbage on others? Since it usually takes pugs months to get used to new meta, necro wont even be asked for in LFG. I thought necro players wanted to actually play necro in raids, not complain all the time how dps-focused class X performs better than them. Static groups are obviously a non factor since you could always do this in organized groups. However, as long as shroud, high base barrier and epidemic are a thing, that's not happening (and it shouldn't). There has to be some drawbacks. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > sure, suggest how. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I did, but it's burried in amazing design of these forums. > > > > > > > > > > > > Was something along lines to reduce base barrier but improve scaling (like heals were once broken on dps tempest/druid). Give epi an SoI treatment so it always shares a set amount of condies when target has only 1 condition (adds still die somewhat fast, easier to use in solo play, but doesnt do 50k dmg per tick). Once that is set just buff all condi traits from scourge and make a definite choice of either dps or support, not both at once. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ok, but epi is core necro, why does scourge have to be involved? Also that's more of a support buff, for 1 espec while nerfing a core skill that will also affect reaper, how will you compensate condi reaper and core necro for it? > > > > > > > > Both condi necro and reaper are non existant anyways. Changing epi and buffing scourge makes scourge a dedicated condi spec. You dont need every elite spec to do the same thing. > > > > > > > > And it wouldn't really be a nerf. Necro and reaper can mostly stack bleed and poison so their epi is weak to begin with. With SoI-like epidemic you would need only 1 burning stack and you would instantly transfer multiple stacks. > > > > > > So let me get this straight, you want to nerf a skill that's weak on 2/3 of the build that can use it, all because 1 build is op with it, without compensating the others because "they are non existant anyway", rather than just nerfing the 1 build to be better at supporting rather than condi stacking so their epi won't be as situationally op as it is now? > > > > Just don't try. Steki seems like a big troll to me that just wants his class to be top DPS and other aren't allowed to do any DPS. > > > > I really can't understand why everyone is crying bout necro. Because he's finally good at 1/3 of the encounters in raids? And only while stacking necro? > > Good ( or broken ) at 1/3 of the encounters and only when class stacking.... Not nearly good enough. Hence why talk about making Necros damage much more independent from Epi. I want Necro to be good without the need of class stacking and also at more than 1/3 of the fights, but for this something needs to happen to this class, and Epi needs a change. > > > @"TexZero.7910" said: > > I disagree with a lot of this premise. Necro has a defined niche being stronger than many other roles under very specific conditions, this is fine. > > Being non-viable at most fights while dishing out damage that borders on insanity in the ones it does well ( while also needing class stacking ) is not even a niche. Its bad balancing and covering up the fact that the class itself is not doing well and needs some love. And epi right now is capable of restricting boss fight designs. You can't really do boss fights with more than one boss at a time or fights where there are multiple bosses with a shared healthpool without considering how make sure that epi isn't breaking that fight. > > Again Necro needs to be good without relying on that one skill that capable of breaking encounters. Epi needs to change, we need to loose the 2nd hp bar, we need to have lower hp, etc, etc, etc.... So tell me, what specific changes to necro do you think needs to happen? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feanor.2358 Posted May 28, 2018 Share Posted May 28, 2018 > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > @"Walhalla.5473" said: > > > @"Nimon.7840" said: > > > > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > > > > @"steki.1478" said: > > > > > > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > > > > > > @"steki.1478" said: > > > > > > > > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > > > > > > > > @"steki.1478" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What? You do know that epi transfers nothing if the target you're casting it on dies before the orbs reaches their next target right? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Which takes at least 2 seconds which is enough to bounce. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Trash mobs take less than a second to melt from condis. Unless you're bouncing from seekers, you have precast epi to bounce it from my experience. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >or (even better example) additional hit every time other ele's MS hits the boss. Would be ridiculous dont you think? Well, that's exactly how epidemic works. > > > > > > > > > > sure so long as the additional meteors deal no damage if no skills have been used. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Anyways, you're comparing skills which have completely different functionality. The main thing they have in common is Anet failing to balance them. MS was strong even after ICD, epi is strong after they made it into projectiles. Now MS got nerfed again because it's strong on already strong build, but the fact that necro is under performing doesnt make epidemic bouncing any less broken. They certainly didnt make that change to nerf the class, they did it to stop bouncing and they failed with that. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Wouldnt it be better for necro to be "viable" on most bosses instead of completely broken on few bosses with adds and garbage on others? Since it usually takes pugs months to get used to new meta, necro wont even be asked for in LFG. I thought necro players wanted to actually play necro in raids, not complain all the time how dps-focused class X performs better than them. Static groups are obviously a non factor since you could always do this in organized groups. However, as long as shroud, high base barrier and epidemic are a thing, that's not happening (and it shouldn't). There has to be some drawbacks. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > sure, suggest how. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I did, but it's burried in amazing design of these forums. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Was something along lines to reduce base barrier but improve scaling (like heals were once broken on dps tempest/druid). Give epi an SoI treatment so it always shares a set amount of condies when target has only 1 condition (adds still die somewhat fast, easier to use in solo play, but doesnt do 50k dmg per tick). Once that is set just buff all condi traits from scourge and make a definite choice of either dps or support, not both at once. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ok, but epi is core necro, why does scourge have to be involved? Also that's more of a support buff, for 1 espec while nerfing a core skill that will also affect reaper, how will you compensate condi reaper and core necro for it? > > > > > > > > > > Both condi necro and reaper are non existant anyways. Changing epi and buffing scourge makes scourge a dedicated condi spec. You dont need every elite spec to do the same thing. > > > > > > > > > > And it wouldn't really be a nerf. Necro and reaper can mostly stack bleed and poison so their epi is weak to begin with. With SoI-like epidemic you would need only 1 burning stack and you would instantly transfer multiple stacks. > > > > > > > > So let me get this straight, you want to nerf a skill that's weak on 2/3 of the build that can use it, all because 1 build is op with it, without compensating the others because "they are non existant anyway", rather than just nerfing the 1 build to be better at supporting rather than condi stacking so their epi won't be as situationally op as it is now? > > > > > > Just don't try. Steki seems like a big troll to me that just wants his class to be top DPS and other aren't allowed to do any DPS. > > > > > > I really can't understand why everyone is crying bout necro. Because he's finally good at 1/3 of the encounters in raids? And only while stacking necro? > > > > Good ( or broken ) at 1/3 of the encounters and only when class stacking.... Not nearly good enough. Hence why talk about making Necros damage much more independent from Epi. I want Necro to be good without the need of class stacking and also at more than 1/3 of the fights, but for this something needs to happen to this class, and Epi needs a change. > > > > > @"TexZero.7910" said: > > > I disagree with a lot of this premise. Necro has a defined niche being stronger than many other roles under very specific conditions, this is fine. > > > > Being non-viable at most fights while dishing out damage that borders on insanity in the ones it does well ( while also needing class stacking ) is not even a niche. Its bad balancing and covering up the fact that the class itself is not doing well and needs some love. And epi right now is capable of restricting boss fight designs. You can't really do boss fights with more than one boss at a time or fights where there are multiple bosses with a shared healthpool without considering how make sure that epi isn't breaking that fight. > > > > Again Necro needs to be good without relying on that one skill that capable of breaking encounters. > > Epi needs to change, we need to loose the 2nd hp bar, we need to have lower hp, etc, etc, etc.... > So tell me, what specific changes to necro do you think needs to happen? Kill the bounce, do proper balance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steki.1478 Posted May 28, 2018 Share Posted May 28, 2018 > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > @"Walhalla.5473" said: > > > @"Nimon.7840" said: > > > > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > > > > @"steki.1478" said: > > > > > > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > > > > > > @"steki.1478" said: > > > > > > > > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > > > > > > > > @"steki.1478" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What? You do know that epi transfers nothing if the target you're casting it on dies before the orbs reaches their next target right? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Which takes at least 2 seconds which is enough to bounce. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Trash mobs take less than a second to melt from condis. Unless you're bouncing from seekers, you have precast epi to bounce it from my experience. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >or (even better example) additional hit every time other ele's MS hits the boss. Would be ridiculous dont you think? Well, that's exactly how epidemic works. > > > > > > > > > > sure so long as the additional meteors deal no damage if no skills have been used. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Anyways, you're comparing skills which have completely different functionality. The main thing they have in common is Anet failing to balance them. MS was strong even after ICD, epi is strong after they made it into projectiles. Now MS got nerfed again because it's strong on already strong build, but the fact that necro is under performing doesnt make epidemic bouncing any less broken. They certainly didnt make that change to nerf the class, they did it to stop bouncing and they failed with that. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Wouldnt it be better for necro to be "viable" on most bosses instead of completely broken on few bosses with adds and garbage on others? Since it usually takes pugs months to get used to new meta, necro wont even be asked for in LFG. I thought necro players wanted to actually play necro in raids, not complain all the time how dps-focused class X performs better than them. Static groups are obviously a non factor since you could always do this in organized groups. However, as long as shroud, high base barrier and epidemic are a thing, that's not happening (and it shouldn't). There has to be some drawbacks. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > sure, suggest how. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I did, but it's burried in amazing design of these forums. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Was something along lines to reduce base barrier but improve scaling (like heals were once broken on dps tempest/druid). Give epi an SoI treatment so it always shares a set amount of condies when target has only 1 condition (adds still die somewhat fast, easier to use in solo play, but doesnt do 50k dmg per tick). Once that is set just buff all condi traits from scourge and make a definite choice of either dps or support, not both at once. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ok, but epi is core necro, why does scourge have to be involved? Also that's more of a support buff, for 1 espec while nerfing a core skill that will also affect reaper, how will you compensate condi reaper and core necro for it? > > > > > > > > > > Both condi necro and reaper are non existant anyways. Changing epi and buffing scourge makes scourge a dedicated condi spec. You dont need every elite spec to do the same thing. > > > > > > > > > > And it wouldn't really be a nerf. Necro and reaper can mostly stack bleed and poison so their epi is weak to begin with. With SoI-like epidemic you would need only 1 burning stack and you would instantly transfer multiple stacks. > > > > > > > > So let me get this straight, you want to nerf a skill that's weak on 2/3 of the build that can use it, all because 1 build is op with it, without compensating the others because "they are non existant anyway", rather than just nerfing the 1 build to be better at supporting rather than condi stacking so their epi won't be as situationally op as it is now? > > > > > > Just don't try. Steki seems like a big troll to me that just wants his class to be top DPS and other aren't allowed to do any DPS. > > > > > > I really can't understand why everyone is crying bout necro. Because he's finally good at 1/3 of the encounters in raids? And only while stacking necro? > > > > Good ( or broken ) at 1/3 of the encounters and only when class stacking.... Not nearly good enough. Hence why talk about making Necros damage much more independent from Epi. I want Necro to be good without the need of class stacking and also at more than 1/3 of the fights, but for this something needs to happen to this class, and Epi needs a change. > > > > > @"TexZero.7910" said: > > > I disagree with a lot of this premise. Necro has a defined niche being stronger than many other roles under very specific conditions, this is fine. > > > > Being non-viable at most fights while dishing out damage that borders on insanity in the ones it does well ( while also needing class stacking ) is not even a niche. Its bad balancing and covering up the fact that the class itself is not doing well and needs some love. And epi right now is capable of restricting boss fight designs. You can't really do boss fights with more than one boss at a time or fights where there are multiple bosses with a shared healthpool without considering how make sure that epi isn't breaking that fight. > > > > Again Necro needs to be good without relying on that one skill that capable of breaking encounters. > > Epi needs to change, we need to loose the 2nd hp bar, we need to have lower hp, etc, etc, etc.... > So tell me, what specific changes to necro do you think needs to happen? You're like a broken record, please start reading comments instead of asking same questions over and over again. This thread is beyond point. Nimon, if you actually read any of my comments you would see that I want necro viable on its own, not because of epi stacking. I see why Anet never balanced necro so far, even its players dont know what they want. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walhalla.5473 Posted May 28, 2018 Share Posted May 28, 2018 > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > @"Walhalla.5473" said: > > > @"Nimon.7840" said: > > > > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > > > > @"steki.1478" said: > > > > > > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > > > > > > @"steki.1478" said: > > > > > > > > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > > > > > > > > @"steki.1478" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What? You do know that epi transfers nothing if the target you're casting it on dies before the orbs reaches their next target right? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Which takes at least 2 seconds which is enough to bounce. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Trash mobs take less than a second to melt from condis. Unless you're bouncing from seekers, you have precast epi to bounce it from my experience. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >or (even better example) additional hit every time other ele's MS hits the boss. Would be ridiculous dont you think? Well, that's exactly how epidemic works. > > > > > > > > > > sure so long as the additional meteors deal no damage if no skills have been used. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Anyways, you're comparing skills which have completely different functionality. The main thing they have in common is Anet failing to balance them. MS was strong even after ICD, epi is strong after they made it into projectiles. Now MS got nerfed again because it's strong on already strong build, but the fact that necro is under performing doesnt make epidemic bouncing any less broken. They certainly didnt make that change to nerf the class, they did it to stop bouncing and they failed with that. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Wouldnt it be better for necro to be "viable" on most bosses instead of completely broken on few bosses with adds and garbage on others? Since it usually takes pugs months to get used to new meta, necro wont even be asked for in LFG. I thought necro players wanted to actually play necro in raids, not complain all the time how dps-focused class X performs better than them. Static groups are obviously a non factor since you could always do this in organized groups. However, as long as shroud, high base barrier and epidemic are a thing, that's not happening (and it shouldn't). There has to be some drawbacks. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > sure, suggest how. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I did, but it's burried in amazing design of these forums. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Was something along lines to reduce base barrier but improve scaling (like heals were once broken on dps tempest/druid). Give epi an SoI treatment so it always shares a set amount of condies when target has only 1 condition (adds still die somewhat fast, easier to use in solo play, but doesnt do 50k dmg per tick). Once that is set just buff all condi traits from scourge and make a definite choice of either dps or support, not both at once. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ok, but epi is core necro, why does scourge have to be involved? Also that's more of a support buff, for 1 espec while nerfing a core skill that will also affect reaper, how will you compensate condi reaper and core necro for it? > > > > > > > > > > Both condi necro and reaper are non existant anyways. Changing epi and buffing scourge makes scourge a dedicated condi spec. You dont need every elite spec to do the same thing. > > > > > > > > > > And it wouldn't really be a nerf. Necro and reaper can mostly stack bleed and poison so their epi is weak to begin with. With SoI-like epidemic you would need only 1 burning stack and you would instantly transfer multiple stacks. > > > > > > > > So let me get this straight, you want to nerf a skill that's weak on 2/3 of the build that can use it, all because 1 build is op with it, without compensating the others because "they are non existant anyway", rather than just nerfing the 1 build to be better at supporting rather than condi stacking so their epi won't be as situationally op as it is now? > > > > > > Just don't try. Steki seems like a big troll to me that just wants his class to be top DPS and other aren't allowed to do any DPS. > > > > > > I really can't understand why everyone is crying bout necro. Because he's finally good at 1/3 of the encounters in raids? And only while stacking necro? > > > > Good ( or broken ) at 1/3 of the encounters and only when class stacking.... Not nearly good enough. Hence why talk about making Necros damage much more independent from Epi. I want Necro to be good without the need of class stacking and also at more than 1/3 of the fights, but for this something needs to happen to this class, and Epi needs a change. > > > > > @"TexZero.7910" said: > > > I disagree with a lot of this premise. Necro has a defined niche being stronger than many other roles under very specific conditions, this is fine. > > > > Being non-viable at most fights while dishing out damage that borders on insanity in the ones it does well ( while also needing class stacking ) is not even a niche. Its bad balancing and covering up the fact that the class itself is not doing well and needs some love. And epi right now is capable of restricting boss fight designs. You can't really do boss fights with more than one boss at a time or fights where there are multiple bosses with a shared healthpool without considering how make sure that epi isn't breaking that fight. > > > > Again Necro needs to be good without relying on that one skill that capable of breaking encounters. > > Epi needs to change, we need to loose the 2nd hp bar, we need to have lower hp, etc, etc, etc.... > So tell me, what specific changes to necro do you think needs to happen? First. Read what I write. Second: Do away with the bounce while retaining the add killing capability of epi and at the same time, buff scepter, offhand dagger and torch so necro can do godd dps without relying on a skill that can break encounters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sephylon.4938 Posted May 28, 2018 Share Posted May 28, 2018 > @"steki.1478" said: > > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > > @"Walhalla.5473" said: > > > > @"Nimon.7840" said: > > > > > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > > > > > @"steki.1478" said: > > > > > > > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > > > > > > > @"steki.1478" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"steki.1478" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What? You do know that epi transfers nothing if the target you're casting it on dies before the orbs reaches their next target right? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Which takes at least 2 seconds which is enough to bounce. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Trash mobs take less than a second to melt from condis. Unless you're bouncing from seekers, you have precast epi to bounce it from my experience. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >or (even better example) additional hit every time other ele's MS hits the boss. Would be ridiculous dont you think? Well, that's exactly how epidemic works. > > > > > > > > > > > sure so long as the additional meteors deal no damage if no skills have been used. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Anyways, you're comparing skills which have completely different functionality. The main thing they have in common is Anet failing to balance them. MS was strong even after ICD, epi is strong after they made it into projectiles. Now MS got nerfed again because it's strong on already strong build, but the fact that necro is under performing doesnt make epidemic bouncing any less broken. They certainly didnt make that change to nerf the class, they did it to stop bouncing and they failed with that. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Wouldnt it be better for necro to be "viable" on most bosses instead of completely broken on few bosses with adds and garbage on others? Since it usually takes pugs months to get used to new meta, necro wont even be asked for in LFG. I thought necro players wanted to actually play necro in raids, not complain all the time how dps-focused class X performs better than them. Static groups are obviously a non factor since you could always do this in organized groups. However, as long as shroud, high base barrier and epidemic are a thing, that's not happening (and it shouldn't). There has to be some drawbacks. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > sure, suggest how. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I did, but it's burried in amazing design of these forums. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Was something along lines to reduce base barrier but improve scaling (like heals were once broken on dps tempest/druid). Give epi an SoI treatment so it always shares a set amount of condies when target has only 1 condition (adds still die somewhat fast, easier to use in solo play, but doesnt do 50k dmg per tick). Once that is set just buff all condi traits from scourge and make a definite choice of either dps or support, not both at once. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ok, but epi is core necro, why does scourge have to be involved? Also that's more of a support buff, for 1 espec while nerfing a core skill that will also affect reaper, how will you compensate condi reaper and core necro for it? > > > > > > > > > > > > Both condi necro and reaper are non existant anyways. Changing epi and buffing scourge makes scourge a dedicated condi spec. You dont need every elite spec to do the same thing. > > > > > > > > > > > > And it wouldn't really be a nerf. Necro and reaper can mostly stack bleed and poison so their epi is weak to begin with. With SoI-like epidemic you would need only 1 burning stack and you would instantly transfer multiple stacks. > > > > > > > > > > So let me get this straight, you want to nerf a skill that's weak on 2/3 of the build that can use it, all because 1 build is op with it, without compensating the others because "they are non existant anyway", rather than just nerfing the 1 build to be better at supporting rather than condi stacking so their epi won't be as situationally op as it is now? > > > > > > > > Just don't try. Steki seems like a big troll to me that just wants his class to be top DPS and other aren't allowed to do any DPS. > > > > > > > > I really can't understand why everyone is crying bout necro. Because he's finally good at 1/3 of the encounters in raids? And only while stacking necro? > > > > > > Good ( or broken ) at 1/3 of the encounters and only when class stacking.... Not nearly good enough. Hence why talk about making Necros damage much more independent from Epi. I want Necro to be good without the need of class stacking and also at more than 1/3 of the fights, but for this something needs to happen to this class, and Epi needs a change. > > > > > > > @"TexZero.7910" said: > > > > I disagree with a lot of this premise. Necro has a defined niche being stronger than many other roles under very specific conditions, this is fine. > > > > > > Being non-viable at most fights while dishing out damage that borders on insanity in the ones it does well ( while also needing class stacking ) is not even a niche. Its bad balancing and covering up the fact that the class itself is not doing well and needs some love. And epi right now is capable of restricting boss fight designs. You can't really do boss fights with more than one boss at a time or fights where there are multiple bosses with a shared healthpool without considering how make sure that epi isn't breaking that fight. > > > > > > Again Necro needs to be good without relying on that one skill that capable of breaking encounters. > > > > Epi needs to change, we need to loose the 2nd hp bar, we need to have lower hp, etc, etc, etc.... > > So tell me, what specific changes to necro do you think needs to happen? > > You're like a broken record, please start reading comments instead of asking same questions over and over again. This thread is beyond point. > As soon as I get a response that isn't "nerf epi, epi op and holding necro back so nerf it" sure. > @"Walhalla.5473" said: > > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > > @"Walhalla.5473" said: > > > > @"Nimon.7840" said: > > > > > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > > > > > @"steki.1478" said: > > > > > > > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > > > > > > > @"steki.1478" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"steki.1478" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What? You do know that epi transfers nothing if the target you're casting it on dies before the orbs reaches their next target right? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Which takes at least 2 seconds which is enough to bounce. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Trash mobs take less than a second to melt from condis. Unless you're bouncing from seekers, you have precast epi to bounce it from my experience. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >or (even better example) additional hit every time other ele's MS hits the boss. Would be ridiculous dont you think? Well, that's exactly how epidemic works. > > > > > > > > > > > sure so long as the additional meteors deal no damage if no skills have been used. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Anyways, you're comparing skills which have completely different functionality. The main thing they have in common is Anet failing to balance them. MS was strong even after ICD, epi is strong after they made it into projectiles. Now MS got nerfed again because it's strong on already strong build, but the fact that necro is under performing doesnt make epidemic bouncing any less broken. They certainly didnt make that change to nerf the class, they did it to stop bouncing and they failed with that. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Wouldnt it be better for necro to be "viable" on most bosses instead of completely broken on few bosses with adds and garbage on others? Since it usually takes pugs months to get used to new meta, necro wont even be asked for in LFG. I thought necro players wanted to actually play necro in raids, not complain all the time how dps-focused class X performs better than them. Static groups are obviously a non factor since you could always do this in organized groups. However, as long as shroud, high base barrier and epidemic are a thing, that's not happening (and it shouldn't). There has to be some drawbacks. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > sure, suggest how. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I did, but it's burried in amazing design of these forums. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Was something along lines to reduce base barrier but improve scaling (like heals were once broken on dps tempest/druid). Give epi an SoI treatment so it always shares a set amount of condies when target has only 1 condition (adds still die somewhat fast, easier to use in solo play, but doesnt do 50k dmg per tick). Once that is set just buff all condi traits from scourge and make a definite choice of either dps or support, not both at once. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ok, but epi is core necro, why does scourge have to be involved? Also that's more of a support buff, for 1 espec while nerfing a core skill that will also affect reaper, how will you compensate condi reaper and core necro for it? > > > > > > > > > > > > Both condi necro and reaper are non existant anyways. Changing epi and buffing scourge makes scourge a dedicated condi spec. You dont need every elite spec to do the same thing. > > > > > > > > > > > > And it wouldn't really be a nerf. Necro and reaper can mostly stack bleed and poison so their epi is weak to begin with. With SoI-like epidemic you would need only 1 burning stack and you would instantly transfer multiple stacks. > > > > > > > > > > So let me get this straight, you want to nerf a skill that's weak on 2/3 of the build that can use it, all because 1 build is op with it, without compensating the others because "they are non existant anyway", rather than just nerfing the 1 build to be better at supporting rather than condi stacking so their epi won't be as situationally op as it is now? > > > > > > > > Just don't try. Steki seems like a big troll to me that just wants his class to be top DPS and other aren't allowed to do any DPS. > > > > > > > > I really can't understand why everyone is crying bout necro. Because he's finally good at 1/3 of the encounters in raids? And only while stacking necro? > > > > > > Good ( or broken ) at 1/3 of the encounters and only when class stacking.... Not nearly good enough. Hence why talk about making Necros damage much more independent from Epi. I want Necro to be good without the need of class stacking and also at more than 1/3 of the fights, but for this something needs to happen to this class, and Epi needs a change. > > > > > > > @"TexZero.7910" said: > > > > I disagree with a lot of this premise. Necro has a defined niche being stronger than many other roles under very specific conditions, this is fine. > > > > > > Being non-viable at most fights while dishing out damage that borders on insanity in the ones it does well ( while also needing class stacking ) is not even a niche. Its bad balancing and covering up the fact that the class itself is not doing well and needs some love. And epi right now is capable of restricting boss fight designs. You can't really do boss fights with more than one boss at a time or fights where there are multiple bosses with a shared healthpool without considering how make sure that epi isn't breaking that fight. > > > > > > Again Necro needs to be good without relying on that one skill that capable of breaking encounters. > > > > Epi needs to change, we need to loose the 2nd hp bar, we need to have lower hp, etc, etc, etc.... > > So tell me, what specific changes to necro do you think needs to happen? > > First. Read what I write. > Second: Do away with the bounce while retaining the add killing capability of epi and at the same time, buff scepter, offhand dagger and torch so necro can do godd dps without relying on a skill that can break encounters. Anet will not buff condi stacks that skills apply because doing so will annoy pvp/wvwers and they recently did a patch that reduced the stacks thay condi skills applied but increased their durations. With that in mind, how do you buff scepter? Increase its aa damage? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steki.1478 Posted May 28, 2018 Share Posted May 28, 2018 > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > @"steki.1478" said: > > > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > > > @"Walhalla.5473" said: > > > > > @"Nimon.7840" said: > > > > > > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > > > > > > @"steki.1478" said: > > > > > > > > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > > > > > > > > @"steki.1478" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"steki.1478" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What? You do know that epi transfers nothing if the target you're casting it on dies before the orbs reaches their next target right? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Which takes at least 2 seconds which is enough to bounce. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Trash mobs take less than a second to melt from condis. Unless you're bouncing from seekers, you have precast epi to bounce it from my experience. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >or (even better example) additional hit every time other ele's MS hits the boss. Would be ridiculous dont you think? Well, that's exactly how epidemic works. > > > > > > > > > > > > sure so long as the additional meteors deal no damage if no skills have been used. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Anyways, you're comparing skills which have completely different functionality. The main thing they have in common is Anet failing to balance them. MS was strong even after ICD, epi is strong after they made it into projectiles. Now MS got nerfed again because it's strong on already strong build, but the fact that necro is under performing doesnt make epidemic bouncing any less broken. They certainly didnt make that change to nerf the class, they did it to stop bouncing and they failed with that. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Wouldnt it be better for necro to be "viable" on most bosses instead of completely broken on few bosses with adds and garbage on others? Since it usually takes pugs months to get used to new meta, necro wont even be asked for in LFG. I thought necro players wanted to actually play necro in raids, not complain all the time how dps-focused class X performs better than them. Static groups are obviously a non factor since you could always do this in organized groups. However, as long as shroud, high base barrier and epidemic are a thing, that's not happening (and it shouldn't). There has to be some drawbacks. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > sure, suggest how. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I did, but it's burried in amazing design of these forums. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Was something along lines to reduce base barrier but improve scaling (like heals were once broken on dps tempest/druid). Give epi an SoI treatment so it always shares a set amount of condies when target has only 1 condition (adds still die somewhat fast, easier to use in solo play, but doesnt do 50k dmg per tick). Once that is set just buff all condi traits from scourge and make a definite choice of either dps or support, not both at once. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ok, but epi is core necro, why does scourge have to be involved? Also that's more of a support buff, for 1 espec while nerfing a core skill that will also affect reaper, how will you compensate condi reaper and core necro for it? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Both condi necro and reaper are non existant anyways. Changing epi and buffing scourge makes scourge a dedicated condi spec. You dont need every elite spec to do the same thing. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And it wouldn't really be a nerf. Necro and reaper can mostly stack bleed and poison so their epi is weak to begin with. With SoI-like epidemic you would need only 1 burning stack and you would instantly transfer multiple stacks. > > > > > > > > > > > > So let me get this straight, you want to nerf a skill that's weak on 2/3 of the build that can use it, all because 1 build is op with it, without compensating the others because "they are non existant anyway", rather than just nerfing the 1 build to be better at supporting rather than condi stacking so their epi won't be as situationally op as it is now? > > > > > > > > > > Just don't try. Steki seems like a big troll to me that just wants his class to be top DPS and other aren't allowed to do any DPS. > > > > > > > > > > I really can't understand why everyone is crying bout necro. Because he's finally good at 1/3 of the encounters in raids? And only while stacking necro? > > > > > > > > Good ( or broken ) at 1/3 of the encounters and only when class stacking.... Not nearly good enough. Hence why talk about making Necros damage much more independent from Epi. I want Necro to be good without the need of class stacking and also at more than 1/3 of the fights, but for this something needs to happen to this class, and Epi needs a change. > > > > > > > > > @"TexZero.7910" said: > > > > > I disagree with a lot of this premise. Necro has a defined niche being stronger than many other roles under very specific conditions, this is fine. > > > > > > > > Being non-viable at most fights while dishing out damage that borders on insanity in the ones it does well ( while also needing class stacking ) is not even a niche. Its bad balancing and covering up the fact that the class itself is not doing well and needs some love. And epi right now is capable of restricting boss fight designs. You can't really do boss fights with more than one boss at a time or fights where there are multiple bosses with a shared healthpool without considering how make sure that epi isn't breaking that fight. > > > > > > > > Again Necro needs to be good without relying on that one skill that capable of breaking encounters. > > > > > > Epi needs to change, we need to loose the 2nd hp bar, we need to have lower hp, etc, etc, etc.... > > > So tell me, what specific changes to necro do you think needs to happen? > > > > You're like a broken record, please start reading comments instead of asking same questions over and over again. This thread is beyond point. > > > As soon as I get a response that isn't "nerf epi, epi op and holding necro back so nerf it" sure. > > @"Walhalla.5473" said: > > > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > > > @"Walhalla.5473" said: > > > > > @"Nimon.7840" said: > > > > > > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > > > > > > @"steki.1478" said: > > > > > > > > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > > > > > > > > @"steki.1478" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"steki.1478" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What? You do know that epi transfers nothing if the target you're casting it on dies before the orbs reaches their next target right? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Which takes at least 2 seconds which is enough to bounce. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Trash mobs take less than a second to melt from condis. Unless you're bouncing from seekers, you have precast epi to bounce it from my experience. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >or (even better example) additional hit every time other ele's MS hits the boss. Would be ridiculous dont you think? Well, that's exactly how epidemic works. > > > > > > > > > > > > sure so long as the additional meteors deal no damage if no skills have been used. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Anyways, you're comparing skills which have completely different functionality. The main thing they have in common is Anet failing to balance them. MS was strong even after ICD, epi is strong after they made it into projectiles. Now MS got nerfed again because it's strong on already strong build, but the fact that necro is under performing doesnt make epidemic bouncing any less broken. They certainly didnt make that change to nerf the class, they did it to stop bouncing and they failed with that. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Wouldnt it be better for necro to be "viable" on most bosses instead of completely broken on few bosses with adds and garbage on others? Since it usually takes pugs months to get used to new meta, necro wont even be asked for in LFG. I thought necro players wanted to actually play necro in raids, not complain all the time how dps-focused class X performs better than them. Static groups are obviously a non factor since you could always do this in organized groups. However, as long as shroud, high base barrier and epidemic are a thing, that's not happening (and it shouldn't). There has to be some drawbacks. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > sure, suggest how. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I did, but it's burried in amazing design of these forums. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Was something along lines to reduce base barrier but improve scaling (like heals were once broken on dps tempest/druid). Give epi an SoI treatment so it always shares a set amount of condies when target has only 1 condition (adds still die somewhat fast, easier to use in solo play, but doesnt do 50k dmg per tick). Once that is set just buff all condi traits from scourge and make a definite choice of either dps or support, not both at once. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ok, but epi is core necro, why does scourge have to be involved? Also that's more of a support buff, for 1 espec while nerfing a core skill that will also affect reaper, how will you compensate condi reaper and core necro for it? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Both condi necro and reaper are non existant anyways. Changing epi and buffing scourge makes scourge a dedicated condi spec. You dont need every elite spec to do the same thing. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And it wouldn't really be a nerf. Necro and reaper can mostly stack bleed and poison so their epi is weak to begin with. With SoI-like epidemic you would need only 1 burning stack and you would instantly transfer multiple stacks. > > > > > > > > > > > > So let me get this straight, you want to nerf a skill that's weak on 2/3 of the build that can use it, all because 1 build is op with it, without compensating the others because "they are non existant anyway", rather than just nerfing the 1 build to be better at supporting rather than condi stacking so their epi won't be as situationally op as it is now? > > > > > > > > > > Just don't try. Steki seems like a big troll to me that just wants his class to be top DPS and other aren't allowed to do any DPS. > > > > > > > > > > I really can't understand why everyone is crying bout necro. Because he's finally good at 1/3 of the encounters in raids? And only while stacking necro? > > > > > > > > Good ( or broken ) at 1/3 of the encounters and only when class stacking.... Not nearly good enough. Hence why talk about making Necros damage much more independent from Epi. I want Necro to be good without the need of class stacking and also at more than 1/3 of the fights, but for this something needs to happen to this class, and Epi needs a change. > > > > > > > > > @"TexZero.7910" said: > > > > > I disagree with a lot of this premise. Necro has a defined niche being stronger than many other roles under very specific conditions, this is fine. > > > > > > > > Being non-viable at most fights while dishing out damage that borders on insanity in the ones it does well ( while also needing class stacking ) is not even a niche. Its bad balancing and covering up the fact that the class itself is not doing well and needs some love. And epi right now is capable of restricting boss fight designs. You can't really do boss fights with more than one boss at a time or fights where there are multiple bosses with a shared healthpool without considering how make sure that epi isn't breaking that fight. > > > > > > > > Again Necro needs to be good without relying on that one skill that capable of breaking encounters. > > > > > > Epi needs to change, we need to loose the 2nd hp bar, we need to have lower hp, etc, etc, etc.... > > > So tell me, what specific changes to necro do you think needs to happen? > > > > First. Read what I write. > > Second: Do away with the bounce while retaining the add killing capability of epi and at the same time, buff scepter, offhand dagger and torch so necro can do godd dps without relying on a skill that can break encounters. > > Anet will not buff condi stacks that skills apply because doing so will annoy pvp/wvwers and they recently did a patch that reduced the stacks thay condi skills applied but increased their durations. With that in mind, how do you buff scepter? Increase its aa damage? Split balance between pve and other modes. Like it's already being done. Can we pls stop? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walhalla.5473 Posted May 28, 2018 Share Posted May 28, 2018 > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > @"steki.1478" said: > > > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > > > @"Walhalla.5473" said: > > > > > @"Nimon.7840" said: > > > > > > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > > > > > > @"steki.1478" said: > > > > > > > > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > > > > > > > > @"steki.1478" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"steki.1478" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What? You do know that epi transfers nothing if the target you're casting it on dies before the orbs reaches their next target right? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Which takes at least 2 seconds which is enough to bounce. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Trash mobs take less than a second to melt from condis. Unless you're bouncing from seekers, you have precast epi to bounce it from my experience. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >or (even better example) additional hit every time other ele's MS hits the boss. Would be ridiculous dont you think? Well, that's exactly how epidemic works. > > > > > > > > > > > > sure so long as the additional meteors deal no damage if no skills have been used. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Anyways, you're comparing skills which have completely different functionality. The main thing they have in common is Anet failing to balance them. MS was strong even after ICD, epi is strong after they made it into projectiles. Now MS got nerfed again because it's strong on already strong build, but the fact that necro is under performing doesnt make epidemic bouncing any less broken. They certainly didnt make that change to nerf the class, they did it to stop bouncing and they failed with that. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Wouldnt it be better for necro to be "viable" on most bosses instead of completely broken on few bosses with adds and garbage on others? Since it usually takes pugs months to get used to new meta, necro wont even be asked for in LFG. I thought necro players wanted to actually play necro in raids, not complain all the time how dps-focused class X performs better than them. Static groups are obviously a non factor since you could always do this in organized groups. However, as long as shroud, high base barrier and epidemic are a thing, that's not happening (and it shouldn't). There has to be some drawbacks. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > sure, suggest how. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I did, but it's burried in amazing design of these forums. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Was something along lines to reduce base barrier but improve scaling (like heals were once broken on dps tempest/druid). Give epi an SoI treatment so it always shares a set amount of condies when target has only 1 condition (adds still die somewhat fast, easier to use in solo play, but doesnt do 50k dmg per tick). Once that is set just buff all condi traits from scourge and make a definite choice of either dps or support, not both at once. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ok, but epi is core necro, why does scourge have to be involved? Also that's more of a support buff, for 1 espec while nerfing a core skill that will also affect reaper, how will you compensate condi reaper and core necro for it? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Both condi necro and reaper are non existant anyways. Changing epi and buffing scourge makes scourge a dedicated condi spec. You dont need every elite spec to do the same thing. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And it wouldn't really be a nerf. Necro and reaper can mostly stack bleed and poison so their epi is weak to begin with. With SoI-like epidemic you would need only 1 burning stack and you would instantly transfer multiple stacks. > > > > > > > > > > > > So let me get this straight, you want to nerf a skill that's weak on 2/3 of the build that can use it, all because 1 build is op with it, without compensating the others because "they are non existant anyway", rather than just nerfing the 1 build to be better at supporting rather than condi stacking so their epi won't be as situationally op as it is now? > > > > > > > > > > Just don't try. Steki seems like a big troll to me that just wants his class to be top DPS and other aren't allowed to do any DPS. > > > > > > > > > > I really can't understand why everyone is crying bout necro. Because he's finally good at 1/3 of the encounters in raids? And only while stacking necro? > > > > > > > > Good ( or broken ) at 1/3 of the encounters and only when class stacking.... Not nearly good enough. Hence why talk about making Necros damage much more independent from Epi. I want Necro to be good without the need of class stacking and also at more than 1/3 of the fights, but for this something needs to happen to this class, and Epi needs a change. > > > > > > > > > @"TexZero.7910" said: > > > > > I disagree with a lot of this premise. Necro has a defined niche being stronger than many other roles under very specific conditions, this is fine. > > > > > > > > Being non-viable at most fights while dishing out damage that borders on insanity in the ones it does well ( while also needing class stacking ) is not even a niche. Its bad balancing and covering up the fact that the class itself is not doing well and needs some love. And epi right now is capable of restricting boss fight designs. You can't really do boss fights with more than one boss at a time or fights where there are multiple bosses with a shared healthpool without considering how make sure that epi isn't breaking that fight. > > > > > > > > Again Necro needs to be good without relying on that one skill that capable of breaking encounters. > > > > > > Epi needs to change, we need to loose the 2nd hp bar, we need to have lower hp, etc, etc, etc.... > > > So tell me, what specific changes to necro do you think needs to happen? > > > > You're like a broken record, please start reading comments instead of asking same questions over and over again. This thread is beyond point. > > > As soon as I get a response that isn't "nerf epi, epi op and holding necro back so nerf it" sure. > > @"Walhalla.5473" said: > > > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > > > @"Walhalla.5473" said: > > > > > @"Nimon.7840" said: > > > > > > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > > > > > > @"steki.1478" said: > > > > > > > > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > > > > > > > > @"steki.1478" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"steki.1478" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What? You do know that epi transfers nothing if the target you're casting it on dies before the orbs reaches their next target right? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Which takes at least 2 seconds which is enough to bounce. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Trash mobs take less than a second to melt from condis. Unless you're bouncing from seekers, you have precast epi to bounce it from my experience. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >or (even better example) additional hit every time other ele's MS hits the boss. Would be ridiculous dont you think? Well, that's exactly how epidemic works. > > > > > > > > > > > > sure so long as the additional meteors deal no damage if no skills have been used. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Anyways, you're comparing skills which have completely different functionality. The main thing they have in common is Anet failing to balance them. MS was strong even after ICD, epi is strong after they made it into projectiles. Now MS got nerfed again because it's strong on already strong build, but the fact that necro is under performing doesnt make epidemic bouncing any less broken. They certainly didnt make that change to nerf the class, they did it to stop bouncing and they failed with that. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Wouldnt it be better for necro to be "viable" on most bosses instead of completely broken on few bosses with adds and garbage on others? Since it usually takes pugs months to get used to new meta, necro wont even be asked for in LFG. I thought necro players wanted to actually play necro in raids, not complain all the time how dps-focused class X performs better than them. Static groups are obviously a non factor since you could always do this in organized groups. However, as long as shroud, high base barrier and epidemic are a thing, that's not happening (and it shouldn't). There has to be some drawbacks. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > sure, suggest how. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I did, but it's burried in amazing design of these forums. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Was something along lines to reduce base barrier but improve scaling (like heals were once broken on dps tempest/druid). Give epi an SoI treatment so it always shares a set amount of condies when target has only 1 condition (adds still die somewhat fast, easier to use in solo play, but doesnt do 50k dmg per tick). Once that is set just buff all condi traits from scourge and make a definite choice of either dps or support, not both at once. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ok, but epi is core necro, why does scourge have to be involved? Also that's more of a support buff, for 1 espec while nerfing a core skill that will also affect reaper, how will you compensate condi reaper and core necro for it? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Both condi necro and reaper are non existant anyways. Changing epi and buffing scourge makes scourge a dedicated condi spec. You dont need every elite spec to do the same thing. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And it wouldn't really be a nerf. Necro and reaper can mostly stack bleed and poison so their epi is weak to begin with. With SoI-like epidemic you would need only 1 burning stack and you would instantly transfer multiple stacks. > > > > > > > > > > > > So let me get this straight, you want to nerf a skill that's weak on 2/3 of the build that can use it, all because 1 build is op with it, without compensating the others because "they are non existant anyway", rather than just nerfing the 1 build to be better at supporting rather than condi stacking so their epi won't be as situationally op as it is now? > > > > > > > > > > Just don't try. Steki seems like a big troll to me that just wants his class to be top DPS and other aren't allowed to do any DPS. > > > > > > > > > > I really can't understand why everyone is crying bout necro. Because he's finally good at 1/3 of the encounters in raids? And only while stacking necro? > > > > > > > > Good ( or broken ) at 1/3 of the encounters and only when class stacking.... Not nearly good enough. Hence why talk about making Necros damage much more independent from Epi. I want Necro to be good without the need of class stacking and also at more than 1/3 of the fights, but for this something needs to happen to this class, and Epi needs a change. > > > > > > > > > @"TexZero.7910" said: > > > > > I disagree with a lot of this premise. Necro has a defined niche being stronger than many other roles under very specific conditions, this is fine. > > > > > > > > Being non-viable at most fights while dishing out damage that borders on insanity in the ones it does well ( while also needing class stacking ) is not even a niche. Its bad balancing and covering up the fact that the class itself is not doing well and needs some love. And epi right now is capable of restricting boss fight designs. You can't really do boss fights with more than one boss at a time or fights where there are multiple bosses with a shared healthpool without considering how make sure that epi isn't breaking that fight. > > > > > > > > Again Necro needs to be good without relying on that one skill that capable of breaking encounters. > > > > > > Epi needs to change, we need to loose the 2nd hp bar, we need to have lower hp, etc, etc, etc.... > > > So tell me, what specific changes to necro do you think needs to happen? > > > > First. Read what I write. > > Second: Do away with the bounce while retaining the add killing capability of epi and at the same time, buff scepter, offhand dagger and torch so necro can do godd dps without relying on a skill that can break encounters. > > Anet will not buff condi stacks that skills apply because doing so will annoy pvp/wvwers and they recently did a patch that reduced the stacks thay condi skills applied but increased their durations. With that in mind, how do you buff scepter? Increase its aa damage? I would recommend you start taking it seriously. PvP and WvW isn't that of issue anymore in regards to balance since Anet is doing more and more split balance. So you can either increase the duration, add a few stacks and/or reduce CD's Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sephylon.4938 Posted May 28, 2018 Share Posted May 28, 2018 > @"Walhalla.5473" said: > > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > > @"steki.1478" said: > > > > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > > > > @"Walhalla.5473" said: > > > > > > @"Nimon.7840" said: > > > > > > > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > > > > > > > @"steki.1478" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"steki.1478" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"steki.1478" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What? You do know that epi transfers nothing if the target you're casting it on dies before the orbs reaches their next target right? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Which takes at least 2 seconds which is enough to bounce. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Trash mobs take less than a second to melt from condis. Unless you're bouncing from seekers, you have precast epi to bounce it from my experience. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >or (even better example) additional hit every time other ele's MS hits the boss. Would be ridiculous dont you think? Well, that's exactly how epidemic works. > > > > > > > > > > > > > sure so long as the additional meteors deal no damage if no skills have been used. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Anyways, you're comparing skills which have completely different functionality. The main thing they have in common is Anet failing to balance them. MS was strong even after ICD, epi is strong after they made it into projectiles. Now MS got nerfed again because it's strong on already strong build, but the fact that necro is under performing doesnt make epidemic bouncing any less broken. They certainly didnt make that change to nerf the class, they did it to stop bouncing and they failed with that. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Wouldnt it be better for necro to be "viable" on most bosses instead of completely broken on few bosses with adds and garbage on others? Since it usually takes pugs months to get used to new meta, necro wont even be asked for in LFG. I thought necro players wanted to actually play necro in raids, not complain all the time how dps-focused class X performs better than them. Static groups are obviously a non factor since you could always do this in organized groups. However, as long as shroud, high base barrier and epidemic are a thing, that's not happening (and it shouldn't). There has to be some drawbacks. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > sure, suggest how. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I did, but it's burried in amazing design of these forums. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Was something along lines to reduce base barrier but improve scaling (like heals were once broken on dps tempest/druid). Give epi an SoI treatment so it always shares a set amount of condies when target has only 1 condition (adds still die somewhat fast, easier to use in solo play, but doesnt do 50k dmg per tick). Once that is set just buff all condi traits from scourge and make a definite choice of either dps or support, not both at once. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ok, but epi is core necro, why does scourge have to be involved? Also that's more of a support buff, for 1 espec while nerfing a core skill that will also affect reaper, how will you compensate condi reaper and core necro for it? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Both condi necro and reaper are non existant anyways. Changing epi and buffing scourge makes scourge a dedicated condi spec. You dont need every elite spec to do the same thing. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And it wouldn't really be a nerf. Necro and reaper can mostly stack bleed and poison so their epi is weak to begin with. With SoI-like epidemic you would need only 1 burning stack and you would instantly transfer multiple stacks. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So let me get this straight, you want to nerf a skill that's weak on 2/3 of the build that can use it, all because 1 build is op with it, without compensating the others because "they are non existant anyway", rather than just nerfing the 1 build to be better at supporting rather than condi stacking so their epi won't be as situationally op as it is now? > > > > > > > > > > > > Just don't try. Steki seems like a big troll to me that just wants his class to be top DPS and other aren't allowed to do any DPS. > > > > > > > > > > > > I really can't understand why everyone is crying bout necro. Because he's finally good at 1/3 of the encounters in raids? And only while stacking necro? > > > > > > > > > > Good ( or broken ) at 1/3 of the encounters and only when class stacking.... Not nearly good enough. Hence why talk about making Necros damage much more independent from Epi. I want Necro to be good without the need of class stacking and also at more than 1/3 of the fights, but for this something needs to happen to this class, and Epi needs a change. > > > > > > > > > > > @"TexZero.7910" said: > > > > > > I disagree with a lot of this premise. Necro has a defined niche being stronger than many other roles under very specific conditions, this is fine. > > > > > > > > > > Being non-viable at most fights while dishing out damage that borders on insanity in the ones it does well ( while also needing class stacking ) is not even a niche. Its bad balancing and covering up the fact that the class itself is not doing well and needs some love. And epi right now is capable of restricting boss fight designs. You can't really do boss fights with more than one boss at a time or fights where there are multiple bosses with a shared healthpool without considering how make sure that epi isn't breaking that fight. > > > > > > > > > > Again Necro needs to be good without relying on that one skill that capable of breaking encounters. > > > > > > > > Epi needs to change, we need to loose the 2nd hp bar, we need to have lower hp, etc, etc, etc.... > > > > So tell me, what specific changes to necro do you think needs to happen? > > > > > > You're like a broken record, please start reading comments instead of asking same questions over and over again. This thread is beyond point. > > > > > As soon as I get a response that isn't "nerf epi, epi op and holding necro back so nerf it" sure. > > > @"Walhalla.5473" said: > > > > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > > > > @"Walhalla.5473" said: > > > > > > @"Nimon.7840" said: > > > > > > > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > > > > > > > @"steki.1478" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"steki.1478" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"steki.1478" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What? You do know that epi transfers nothing if the target you're casting it on dies before the orbs reaches their next target right? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Which takes at least 2 seconds which is enough to bounce. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Trash mobs take less than a second to melt from condis. Unless you're bouncing from seekers, you have precast epi to bounce it from my experience. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >or (even better example) additional hit every time other ele's MS hits the boss. Would be ridiculous dont you think? Well, that's exactly how epidemic works. > > > > > > > > > > > > > sure so long as the additional meteors deal no damage if no skills have been used. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Anyways, you're comparing skills which have completely different functionality. The main thing they have in common is Anet failing to balance them. MS was strong even after ICD, epi is strong after they made it into projectiles. Now MS got nerfed again because it's strong on already strong build, but the fact that necro is under performing doesnt make epidemic bouncing any less broken. They certainly didnt make that change to nerf the class, they did it to stop bouncing and they failed with that. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Wouldnt it be better for necro to be "viable" on most bosses instead of completely broken on few bosses with adds and garbage on others? Since it usually takes pugs months to get used to new meta, necro wont even be asked for in LFG. I thought necro players wanted to actually play necro in raids, not complain all the time how dps-focused class X performs better than them. Static groups are obviously a non factor since you could always do this in organized groups. However, as long as shroud, high base barrier and epidemic are a thing, that's not happening (and it shouldn't). There has to be some drawbacks. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > sure, suggest how. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I did, but it's burried in amazing design of these forums. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Was something along lines to reduce base barrier but improve scaling (like heals were once broken on dps tempest/druid). Give epi an SoI treatment so it always shares a set amount of condies when target has only 1 condition (adds still die somewhat fast, easier to use in solo play, but doesnt do 50k dmg per tick). Once that is set just buff all condi traits from scourge and make a definite choice of either dps or support, not both at once. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ok, but epi is core necro, why does scourge have to be involved? Also that's more of a support buff, for 1 espec while nerfing a core skill that will also affect reaper, how will you compensate condi reaper and core necro for it? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Both condi necro and reaper are non existant anyways. Changing epi and buffing scourge makes scourge a dedicated condi spec. You dont need every elite spec to do the same thing. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And it wouldn't really be a nerf. Necro and reaper can mostly stack bleed and poison so their epi is weak to begin with. With SoI-like epidemic you would need only 1 burning stack and you would instantly transfer multiple stacks. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So let me get this straight, you want to nerf a skill that's weak on 2/3 of the build that can use it, all because 1 build is op with it, without compensating the others because "they are non existant anyway", rather than just nerfing the 1 build to be better at supporting rather than condi stacking so their epi won't be as situationally op as it is now? > > > > > > > > > > > > Just don't try. Steki seems like a big troll to me that just wants his class to be top DPS and other aren't allowed to do any DPS. > > > > > > > > > > > > I really can't understand why everyone is crying bout necro. Because he's finally good at 1/3 of the encounters in raids? And only while stacking necro? > > > > > > > > > > Good ( or broken ) at 1/3 of the encounters and only when class stacking.... Not nearly good enough. Hence why talk about making Necros damage much more independent from Epi. I want Necro to be good without the need of class stacking and also at more than 1/3 of the fights, but for this something needs to happen to this class, and Epi needs a change. > > > > > > > > > > > @"TexZero.7910" said: > > > > > > I disagree with a lot of this premise. Necro has a defined niche being stronger than many other roles under very specific conditions, this is fine. > > > > > > > > > > Being non-viable at most fights while dishing out damage that borders on insanity in the ones it does well ( while also needing class stacking ) is not even a niche. Its bad balancing and covering up the fact that the class itself is not doing well and needs some love. And epi right now is capable of restricting boss fight designs. You can't really do boss fights with more than one boss at a time or fights where there are multiple bosses with a shared healthpool without considering how make sure that epi isn't breaking that fight. > > > > > > > > > > Again Necro needs to be good without relying on that one skill that capable of breaking encounters. > > > > > > > > Epi needs to change, we need to loose the 2nd hp bar, we need to have lower hp, etc, etc, etc.... > > > > So tell me, what specific changes to necro do you think needs to happen? > > > > > > First. Read what I write. > > > Second: Do away with the bounce while retaining the add killing capability of epi and at the same time, buff scepter, offhand dagger and torch so necro can do godd dps without relying on a skill that can break encounters. > > > > Anet will not buff condi stacks that skills apply because doing so will annoy pvp/wvwers and they recently did a patch that reduced the stacks thay condi skills applied but increased their durations. With that in mind, how do you buff scepter? Increase its aa damage? > > I would recommend you start taking it seriously. PvP and WvW isn't that of issue anymore in regards to balance since Anet is doing more and more split balance. So you can either increase the duration, add a few stacks and/or reduce CD's It will bleed over, amd it will cause problems as well. To assume otherwise is unwise. Take the condi stack nerf for example, it wasn't needed in pve, but still made its way here. Or the arming time for shades, or the nerf to f2 condi cleanse. > @"steki.1478" said: > > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > > @"steki.1478" said: > > > > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > > > > @"Walhalla.5473" said: > > > > > > @"Nimon.7840" said: > > > > > > > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > > > > > > > @"steki.1478" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"steki.1478" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"steki.1478" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What? You do know that epi transfers nothing if the target you're casting it on dies before the orbs reaches their next target right? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Which takes at least 2 seconds which is enough to bounce. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Trash mobs take less than a second to melt from condis. Unless you're bouncing from seekers, you have precast epi to bounce it from my experience. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >or (even better example) additional hit every time other ele's MS hits the boss. Would be ridiculous dont you think? Well, that's exactly how epidemic works. > > > > > > > > > > > > > sure so long as the additional meteors deal no damage if no skills have been used. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Anyways, you're comparing skills which have completely different functionality. The main thing they have in common is Anet failing to balance them. MS was strong even after ICD, epi is strong after they made it into projectiles. Now MS got nerfed again because it's strong on already strong build, but the fact that necro is under performing doesnt make epidemic bouncing any less broken. They certainly didnt make that change to nerf the class, they did it to stop bouncing and they failed with that. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Wouldnt it be better for necro to be "viable" on most bosses instead of completely broken on few bosses with adds and garbage on others? Since it usually takes pugs months to get used to new meta, necro wont even be asked for in LFG. I thought necro players wanted to actually play necro in raids, not complain all the time how dps-focused class X performs better than them. Static groups are obviously a non factor since you could always do this in organized groups. However, as long as shroud, high base barrier and epidemic are a thing, that's not happening (and it shouldn't). There has to be some drawbacks. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > sure, suggest how. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I did, but it's burried in amazing design of these forums. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Was something along lines to reduce base barrier but improve scaling (like heals were once broken on dps tempest/druid). Give epi an SoI treatment so it always shares a set amount of condies when target has only 1 condition (adds still die somewhat fast, easier to use in solo play, but doesnt do 50k dmg per tick). Once that is set just buff all condi traits from scourge and make a definite choice of either dps or support, not both at once. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ok, but epi is core necro, why does scourge have to be involved? Also that's more of a support buff, for 1 espec while nerfing a core skill that will also affect reaper, how will you compensate condi reaper and core necro for it? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Both condi necro and reaper are non existant anyways. Changing epi and buffing scourge makes scourge a dedicated condi spec. You dont need every elite spec to do the same thing. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And it wouldn't really be a nerf. Necro and reaper can mostly stack bleed and poison so their epi is weak to begin with. With SoI-like epidemic you would need only 1 burning stack and you would instantly transfer multiple stacks. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So let me get this straight, you want to nerf a skill that's weak on 2/3 of the build that can use it, all because 1 build is op with it, without compensating the others because "they are non existant anyway", rather than just nerfing the 1 build to be better at supporting rather than condi stacking so their epi won't be as situationally op as it is now? > > > > > > > > > > > > Just don't try. Steki seems like a big troll to me that just wants his class to be top DPS and other aren't allowed to do any DPS. > > > > > > > > > > > > I really can't understand why everyone is crying bout necro. Because he's finally good at 1/3 of the encounters in raids? And only while stacking necro? > > > > > > > > > > Good ( or broken ) at 1/3 of the encounters and only when class stacking.... Not nearly good enough. Hence why talk about making Necros damage much more independent from Epi. I want Necro to be good without the need of class stacking and also at more than 1/3 of the fights, but for this something needs to happen to this class, and Epi needs a change. > > > > > > > > > > > @"TexZero.7910" said: > > > > > > I disagree with a lot of this premise. Necro has a defined niche being stronger than many other roles under very specific conditions, this is fine. > > > > > > > > > > Being non-viable at most fights while dishing out damage that borders on insanity in the ones it does well ( while also needing class stacking ) is not even a niche. Its bad balancing and covering up the fact that the class itself is not doing well and needs some love. And epi right now is capable of restricting boss fight designs. You can't really do boss fights with more than one boss at a time or fights where there are multiple bosses with a shared healthpool without considering how make sure that epi isn't breaking that fight. > > > > > > > > > > Again Necro needs to be good without relying on that one skill that capable of breaking encounters. > > > > > > > > Epi needs to change, we need to loose the 2nd hp bar, we need to have lower hp, etc, etc, etc.... > > > > So tell me, what specific changes to necro do you think needs to happen? > > > > > > You're like a broken record, please start reading comments instead of asking same questions over and over again. This thread is beyond point. > > > > > As soon as I get a response that isn't "nerf epi, epi op and holding necro back so nerf it" sure. > > > @"Walhalla.5473" said: > > > > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > > > > @"Walhalla.5473" said: > > > > > > @"Nimon.7840" said: > > > > > > > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > > > > > > > @"steki.1478" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"steki.1478" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"steki.1478" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What? You do know that epi transfers nothing if the target you're casting it on dies before the orbs reaches their next target right? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Which takes at least 2 seconds which is enough to bounce. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Trash mobs take less than a second to melt from condis. Unless you're bouncing from seekers, you have precast epi to bounce it from my experience. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >or (even better example) additional hit every time other ele's MS hits the boss. Would be ridiculous dont you think? Well, that's exactly how epidemic works. > > > > > > > > > > > > > sure so long as the additional meteors deal no damage if no skills have been used. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Anyways, you're comparing skills which have completely different functionality. The main thing they have in common is Anet failing to balance them. MS was strong even after ICD, epi is strong after they made it into projectiles. Now MS got nerfed again because it's strong on already strong build, but the fact that necro is under performing doesnt make epidemic bouncing any less broken. They certainly didnt make that change to nerf the class, they did it to stop bouncing and they failed with that. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Wouldnt it be better for necro to be "viable" on most bosses instead of completely broken on few bosses with adds and garbage on others? Since it usually takes pugs months to get used to new meta, necro wont even be asked for in LFG. I thought necro players wanted to actually play necro in raids, not complain all the time how dps-focused class X performs better than them. Static groups are obviously a non factor since you could always do this in organized groups. However, as long as shroud, high base barrier and epidemic are a thing, that's not happening (and it shouldn't). There has to be some drawbacks. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > sure, suggest how. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I did, but it's burried in amazing design of these forums. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Was something along lines to reduce base barrier but improve scaling (like heals were once broken on dps tempest/druid). Give epi an SoI treatment so it always shares a set amount of condies when target has only 1 condition (adds still die somewhat fast, easier to use in solo play, but doesnt do 50k dmg per tick). Once that is set just buff all condi traits from scourge and make a definite choice of either dps or support, not both at once. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ok, but epi is core necro, why does scourge have to be involved? Also that's more of a support buff, for 1 espec while nerfing a core skill that will also affect reaper, how will you compensate condi reaper and core necro for it? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Both condi necro and reaper are non existant anyways. Changing epi and buffing scourge makes scourge a dedicated condi spec. You dont need every elite spec to do the same thing. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And it wouldn't really be a nerf. Necro and reaper can mostly stack bleed and poison so their epi is weak to begin with. With SoI-like epidemic you would need only 1 burning stack and you would instantly transfer multiple stacks. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So let me get this straight, you want to nerf a skill that's weak on 2/3 of the build that can use it, all because 1 build is op with it, without compensating the others because "they are non existant anyway", rather than just nerfing the 1 build to be better at supporting rather than condi stacking so their epi won't be as situationally op as it is now? > > > > > > > > > > > > Just don't try. Steki seems like a big troll to me that just wants his class to be top DPS and other aren't allowed to do any DPS. > > > > > > > > > > > > I really can't understand why everyone is crying bout necro. Because he's finally good at 1/3 of the encounters in raids? And only while stacking necro? > > > > > > > > > > Good ( or broken ) at 1/3 of the encounters and only when class stacking.... Not nearly good enough. Hence why talk about making Necros damage much more independent from Epi. I want Necro to be good without the need of class stacking and also at more than 1/3 of the fights, but for this something needs to happen to this class, and Epi needs a change. > > > > > > > > > > > @"TexZero.7910" said: > > > > > > I disagree with a lot of this premise. Necro has a defined niche being stronger than many other roles under very specific conditions, this is fine. > > > > > > > > > > Being non-viable at most fights while dishing out damage that borders on insanity in the ones it does well ( while also needing class stacking ) is not even a niche. Its bad balancing and covering up the fact that the class itself is not doing well and needs some love. And epi right now is capable of restricting boss fight designs. You can't really do boss fights with more than one boss at a time or fights where there are multiple bosses with a shared healthpool without considering how make sure that epi isn't breaking that fight. > > > > > > > > > > Again Necro needs to be good without relying on that one skill that capable of breaking encounters. > > > > > > > > Epi needs to change, we need to loose the 2nd hp bar, we need to have lower hp, etc, etc, etc.... > > > > So tell me, what specific changes to necro do you think needs to happen? > > > > > > First. Read what I write. > > > Second: Do away with the bounce while retaining the add killing capability of epi and at the same time, buff scepter, offhand dagger and torch so necro can do godd dps without relying on a skill that can break encounters. > > > > Anet will not buff condi stacks that skills apply because doing so will annoy pvp/wvwers and they recently did a patch that reduced the stacks thay condi skills applied but increased their durations. With that in mind, how do you buff scepter? Increase its aa damage? > > Split balance between pve and other modes. Like it's already being done. Can we pls stop? As soon as I get a more detailed reply than that. You say spliy balance and assume that what will be done here won't affect pvp and wvw in any way whatsoever, under that premise then, what do you change? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steki.1478 Posted May 28, 2018 Share Posted May 28, 2018 @"Sephylon.4938" Ok, you're necro main so you know your class better than me. What do you suggest? Enlighten me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sephylon.4938 Posted May 28, 2018 Share Posted May 28, 2018 > @"steki.1478" said: > @"Sephylon.4938" > > Ok, you're necro main so you know your class better than me. > > What do you suggest? Enlighten me. Hold on to that thought until about 5pm est when I get home to my computer and can give a more detailed response. Tldr version, change corruption skills to do what punishments do, change punishments to be group support via boon+barrier application, change how shroud works to be more like druid's ca, make sand shades pulse healing instead of condis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steki.1478 Posted May 28, 2018 Share Posted May 28, 2018 > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > @"steki.1478" said: > > @"Sephylon.4938" > > > > Ok, you're necro main so you know your class better than me. > > > > What do you suggest? Enlighten me. > > Hold on to that thought until about 5pm est when I get home to my computer and can give a more detailed response. Tldr version, change corruption skills to do what punishments do, change punishments to be group support via boon+barrier application, change how shroud works to be more like druid's ca, make sand shades pulse healing instead of condis So rework half of core class, completely change elite spec only because 1 skill is broken? Why? Not to mention that wit this change there would be no build that counters the boon spam in wvw. I thought you wanted to stay away from that mode in the first place, what happened? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimon.7840 Posted May 28, 2018 Share Posted May 28, 2018 > @"steki.1478" said: > > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > > @"Walhalla.5473" said: > > > > @"Nimon.7840" said: > > > > > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > > > > > @"steki.1478" said: > > > > > > > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > > > > > > > @"steki.1478" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"steki.1478" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What? You do know that epi transfers nothing if the target you're casting it on dies before the orbs reaches their next target right? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Which takes at least 2 seconds which is enough to bounce. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Trash mobs take less than a second to melt from condis. Unless you're bouncing from seekers, you have precast epi to bounce it from my experience. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >or (even better example) additional hit every time other ele's MS hits the boss. Would be ridiculous dont you think? Well, that's exactly how epidemic works. > > > > > > > > > > > sure so long as the additional meteors deal no damage if no skills have been used. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Anyways, you're comparing skills which have completely different functionality. The main thing they have in common is Anet failing to balance them. MS was strong even after ICD, epi is strong after they made it into projectiles. Now MS got nerfed again because it's strong on already strong build, but the fact that necro is under performing doesnt make epidemic bouncing any less broken. They certainly didnt make that change to nerf the class, they did it to stop bouncing and they failed with that. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Wouldnt it be better for necro to be "viable" on most bosses instead of completely broken on few bosses with adds and garbage on others? Since it usually takes pugs months to get used to new meta, necro wont even be asked for in LFG. I thought necro players wanted to actually play necro in raids, not complain all the time how dps-focused class X performs better than them. Static groups are obviously a non factor since you could always do this in organized groups. However, as long as shroud, high base barrier and epidemic are a thing, that's not happening (and it shouldn't). There has to be some drawbacks. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > sure, suggest how. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I did, but it's burried in amazing design of these forums. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Was something along lines to reduce base barrier but improve scaling (like heals were once broken on dps tempest/druid). Give epi an SoI treatment so it always shares a set amount of condies when target has only 1 condition (adds still die somewhat fast, easier to use in solo play, but doesnt do 50k dmg per tick). Once that is set just buff all condi traits from scourge and make a definite choice of either dps or support, not both at once. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ok, but epi is core necro, why does scourge have to be involved? Also that's more of a support buff, for 1 espec while nerfing a core skill that will also affect reaper, how will you compensate condi reaper and core necro for it? > > > > > > > > > > > > Both condi necro and reaper are non existant anyways. Changing epi and buffing scourge makes scourge a dedicated condi spec. You dont need every elite spec to do the same thing. > > > > > > > > > > > > And it wouldn't really be a nerf. Necro and reaper can mostly stack bleed and poison so their epi is weak to begin with. With SoI-like epidemic you would need only 1 burning stack and you would instantly transfer multiple stacks. > > > > > > > > > > So let me get this straight, you want to nerf a skill that's weak on 2/3 of the build that can use it, all because 1 build is op with it, without compensating the others because "they are non existant anyway", rather than just nerfing the 1 build to be better at supporting rather than condi stacking so their epi won't be as situationally op as it is now? > > > > > > > > Just don't try. Steki seems like a big troll to me that just wants his class to be top DPS and other aren't allowed to do any DPS. > > > > > > > > I really can't understand why everyone is crying bout necro. Because he's finally good at 1/3 of the encounters in raids? And only while stacking necro? > > > > > > Good ( or broken ) at 1/3 of the encounters and only when class stacking.... Not nearly good enough. Hence why talk about making Necros damage much more independent from Epi. I want Necro to be good without the need of class stacking and also at more than 1/3 of the fights, but for this something needs to happen to this class, and Epi needs a change. > > > > > > > @"TexZero.7910" said: > > > > I disagree with a lot of this premise. Necro has a defined niche being stronger than many other roles under very specific conditions, this is fine. > > > > > > Being non-viable at most fights while dishing out damage that borders on insanity in the ones it does well ( while also needing class stacking ) is not even a niche. Its bad balancing and covering up the fact that the class itself is not doing well and needs some love. And epi right now is capable of restricting boss fight designs. You can't really do boss fights with more than one boss at a time or fights where there are multiple bosses with a shared healthpool without considering how make sure that epi isn't breaking that fight. > > > > > > Again Necro needs to be good without relying on that one skill that capable of breaking encounters. > > > > Epi needs to change, we need to loose the 2nd hp bar, we need to have lower hp, etc, etc, etc.... > > So tell me, what specific changes to necro do you think needs to happen? > > You're like a broken record, please start reading comments instead of asking same questions over and over again. This thread is beyond point. > > Nimon, if you actually read any of my comments you would see that I want necro viable on its own, not because of epi stacking. > > I see why Anet never balanced necro so far, even its players dont know what they want. Oh sorry then. I read most of them. Seems i missed some. Sure. If we can get to 36k DPS without epibounce and epi is only for cleave. No problem. Nerf it. But not: nerf epi and don't give compensation And yes. Necro as a whole needs a rework pretty badly. Almost everything is about shroud on necro. But having shroud as the only real good dmg and defensive option at the same time, is really damn bad and an awful thing to balance. There needs to be blocks added, and some good mobility like leaps on weapons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feanor.2358 Posted May 28, 2018 Share Posted May 28, 2018 > @"Nimon.7840" said: > > @"steki.1478" said: > > > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > > > @"Walhalla.5473" said: > > > > > @"Nimon.7840" said: > > > > > > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > > > > > > @"steki.1478" said: > > > > > > > > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > > > > > > > > @"steki.1478" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"steki.1478" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What? You do know that epi transfers nothing if the target you're casting it on dies before the orbs reaches their next target right? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Which takes at least 2 seconds which is enough to bounce. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Trash mobs take less than a second to melt from condis. Unless you're bouncing from seekers, you have precast epi to bounce it from my experience. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >or (even better example) additional hit every time other ele's MS hits the boss. Would be ridiculous dont you think? Well, that's exactly how epidemic works. > > > > > > > > > > > > sure so long as the additional meteors deal no damage if no skills have been used. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Anyways, you're comparing skills which have completely different functionality. The main thing they have in common is Anet failing to balance them. MS was strong even after ICD, epi is strong after they made it into projectiles. Now MS got nerfed again because it's strong on already strong build, but the fact that necro is under performing doesnt make epidemic bouncing any less broken. They certainly didnt make that change to nerf the class, they did it to stop bouncing and they failed with that. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Wouldnt it be better for necro to be "viable" on most bosses instead of completely broken on few bosses with adds and garbage on others? Since it usually takes pugs months to get used to new meta, necro wont even be asked for in LFG. I thought necro players wanted to actually play necro in raids, not complain all the time how dps-focused class X performs better than them. Static groups are obviously a non factor since you could always do this in organized groups. However, as long as shroud, high base barrier and epidemic are a thing, that's not happening (and it shouldn't). There has to be some drawbacks. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > sure, suggest how. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I did, but it's burried in amazing design of these forums. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Was something along lines to reduce base barrier but improve scaling (like heals were once broken on dps tempest/druid). Give epi an SoI treatment so it always shares a set amount of condies when target has only 1 condition (adds still die somewhat fast, easier to use in solo play, but doesnt do 50k dmg per tick). Once that is set just buff all condi traits from scourge and make a definite choice of either dps or support, not both at once. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ok, but epi is core necro, why does scourge have to be involved? Also that's more of a support buff, for 1 espec while nerfing a core skill that will also affect reaper, how will you compensate condi reaper and core necro for it? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Both condi necro and reaper are non existant anyways. Changing epi and buffing scourge makes scourge a dedicated condi spec. You dont need every elite spec to do the same thing. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And it wouldn't really be a nerf. Necro and reaper can mostly stack bleed and poison so their epi is weak to begin with. With SoI-like epidemic you would need only 1 burning stack and you would instantly transfer multiple stacks. > > > > > > > > > > > > So let me get this straight, you want to nerf a skill that's weak on 2/3 of the build that can use it, all because 1 build is op with it, without compensating the others because "they are non existant anyway", rather than just nerfing the 1 build to be better at supporting rather than condi stacking so their epi won't be as situationally op as it is now? > > > > > > > > > > Just don't try. Steki seems like a big troll to me that just wants his class to be top DPS and other aren't allowed to do any DPS. > > > > > > > > > > I really can't understand why everyone is crying bout necro. Because he's finally good at 1/3 of the encounters in raids? And only while stacking necro? > > > > > > > > Good ( or broken ) at 1/3 of the encounters and only when class stacking.... Not nearly good enough. Hence why talk about making Necros damage much more independent from Epi. I want Necro to be good without the need of class stacking and also at more than 1/3 of the fights, but for this something needs to happen to this class, and Epi needs a change. > > > > > > > > > @"TexZero.7910" said: > > > > > I disagree with a lot of this premise. Necro has a defined niche being stronger than many other roles under very specific conditions, this is fine. > > > > > > > > Being non-viable at most fights while dishing out damage that borders on insanity in the ones it does well ( while also needing class stacking ) is not even a niche. Its bad balancing and covering up the fact that the class itself is not doing well and needs some love. And epi right now is capable of restricting boss fight designs. You can't really do boss fights with more than one boss at a time or fights where there are multiple bosses with a shared healthpool without considering how make sure that epi isn't breaking that fight. > > > > > > > > Again Necro needs to be good without relying on that one skill that capable of breaking encounters. > > > > > > Epi needs to change, we need to loose the 2nd hp bar, we need to have lower hp, etc, etc, etc.... > > > So tell me, what specific changes to necro do you think needs to happen? > > > > You're like a broken record, please start reading comments instead of asking same questions over and over again. This thread is beyond point. > > > > Nimon, if you actually read any of my comments you would see that I want necro viable on its own, not because of epi stacking. > > > > I see why Anet never balanced necro so far, even its players dont know what they want. > > Oh sorry then. I read most of them. Seems i missed some. > Sure. If we can get to 36k DPS without epibounce and epi is only for cleave. > No problem. Nerf it. > > But not: nerf epi and don't give compensation > > And yes. Necro as a whole needs a rework pretty badly. > Almost everything is about shroud on necro. But having shroud as the only real good dmg and defensive option at the same time, is really kitten bad and an awful thing to balance. > > There needs to be blocks added, and some good mobility like leaps on weapons. > > In order to get 36k personal dps, you'd have to lose the barrier spam, get more ground-targeted skills and receive a set of skills that require you to pick up stuff from the ground, hoping that nobody else picks them first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voltekka.2375 Posted May 28, 2018 Share Posted May 28, 2018 > @"Nimon.7840" said: > > @"steki.1478" said: > > > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > > > @"Walhalla.5473" said: > > > > > @"Nimon.7840" said: > > > > > > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > > > > > > @"steki.1478" said: > > > > > > > > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > > > > > > > > @"steki.1478" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"steki.1478" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What? You do know that epi transfers nothing if the target you're casting it on dies before the orbs reaches their next target right? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Which takes at least 2 seconds which is enough to bounce. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Trash mobs take less than a second to melt from condis. Unless you're bouncing from seekers, you have precast epi to bounce it from my experience. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >or (even better example) additional hit every time other ele's MS hits the boss. Would be ridiculous dont you think? Well, that's exactly how epidemic works. > > > > > > > > > > > > sure so long as the additional meteors deal no damage if no skills have been used. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Anyways, you're comparing skills which have completely different functionality. The main thing they have in common is Anet failing to balance them. MS was strong even after ICD, epi is strong after they made it into projectiles. Now MS got nerfed again because it's strong on already strong build, but the fact that necro is under performing doesnt make epidemic bouncing any less broken. They certainly didnt make that change to nerf the class, they did it to stop bouncing and they failed with that. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Wouldnt it be better for necro to be "viable" on most bosses instead of completely broken on few bosses with adds and garbage on others? Since it usually takes pugs months to get used to new meta, necro wont even be asked for in LFG. I thought necro players wanted to actually play necro in raids, not complain all the time how dps-focused class X performs better than them. Static groups are obviously a non factor since you could always do this in organized groups. However, as long as shroud, high base barrier and epidemic are a thing, that's not happening (and it shouldn't). There has to be some drawbacks. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > sure, suggest how. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I did, but it's burried in amazing design of these forums. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Was something along lines to reduce base barrier but improve scaling (like heals were once broken on dps tempest/druid). Give epi an SoI treatment so it always shares a set amount of condies when target has only 1 condition (adds still die somewhat fast, easier to use in solo play, but doesnt do 50k dmg per tick). Once that is set just buff all condi traits from scourge and make a definite choice of either dps or support, not both at once. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ok, but epi is core necro, why does scourge have to be involved? Also that's more of a support buff, for 1 espec while nerfing a core skill that will also affect reaper, how will you compensate condi reaper and core necro for it? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Both condi necro and reaper are non existant anyways. Changing epi and buffing scourge makes scourge a dedicated condi spec. You dont need every elite spec to do the same thing. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And it wouldn't really be a nerf. Necro and reaper can mostly stack bleed and poison so their epi is weak to begin with. With SoI-like epidemic you would need only 1 burning stack and you would instantly transfer multiple stacks. > > > > > > > > > > > > So let me get this straight, you want to nerf a skill that's weak on 2/3 of the build that can use it, all because 1 build is op with it, without compensating the others because "they are non existant anyway", rather than just nerfing the 1 build to be better at supporting rather than condi stacking so their epi won't be as situationally op as it is now? > > > > > > > > > > Just don't try. Steki seems like a big troll to me that just wants his class to be top DPS and other aren't allowed to do any DPS. > > > > > > > > > > I really can't understand why everyone is crying bout necro. Because he's finally good at 1/3 of the encounters in raids? And only while stacking necro? > > > > > > > > Good ( or broken ) at 1/3 of the encounters and only when class stacking.... Not nearly good enough. Hence why talk about making Necros damage much more independent from Epi. I want Necro to be good without the need of class stacking and also at more than 1/3 of the fights, but for this something needs to happen to this class, and Epi needs a change. > > > > > > > > > @"TexZero.7910" said: > > > > > I disagree with a lot of this premise. Necro has a defined niche being stronger than many other roles under very specific conditions, this is fine. > > > > > > > > Being non-viable at most fights while dishing out damage that borders on insanity in the ones it does well ( while also needing class stacking ) is not even a niche. Its bad balancing and covering up the fact that the class itself is not doing well and needs some love. And epi right now is capable of restricting boss fight designs. You can't really do boss fights with more than one boss at a time or fights where there are multiple bosses with a shared healthpool without considering how make sure that epi isn't breaking that fight. > > > > > > > > Again Necro needs to be good without relying on that one skill that capable of breaking encounters. > > > > > > Epi needs to change, we need to loose the 2nd hp bar, we need to have lower hp, etc, etc, etc.... > > > So tell me, what specific changes to necro do you think needs to happen? > > > > You're like a broken record, please start reading comments instead of asking same questions over and over again. This thread is beyond point. > > > > Nimon, if you actually read any of my comments you would see that I want necro viable on its own, not because of epi stacking. > > > > I see why Anet never balanced necro so far, even its players dont know what they want. > > Oh sorry then. I read most of them. Seems i missed some. > Sure. If we can get to 36k DPS without epibounce and epi is only for cleave. > No problem. Nerf it. > > But not: nerf epi and don't give compensation > > And yes. Necro as a whole needs a rework pretty badly. > Almost everything is about shroud on necro. But having shroud as the only real good dmg and defensive option at the same time, is really kitten bad and an awful thing to balance. > > There needs to be blocks added, and some good mobility like leaps on weapons. > > Funny, because in wvw both epidemic AND shroud skills were among the first to get nerfed in necro. Still, necro is the one supreme class in wvw (the other is FB). Shroud of reaper, traited for less CD was a huge dmg buffer, back then. Reaper should get substantial damage buffs. Scourge should become a support oriented spec. Sadly, it will be a long time before we see any big nec change... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sephylon.4938 Posted May 28, 2018 Share Posted May 28, 2018 > @"steki.1478" said: > > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > > @"steki.1478" said: > > > @"Sephylon.4938" > > > > > > Ok, you're necro main so you know your class better than me. > > > > > > What do you suggest? Enlighten me. > > > > Hold on to that thought until about 5pm est when I get home to my computer and can give a more detailed response. Tldr version, change corruption skills to do what punishments do, change punishments to be group support via boon+barrier application, change how shroud works to be more like druid's ca, make sand shades pulse healing instead of condis > > So rework half of core class, completely change elite spec only because 1 skill is broken? Why? > > Not to mention that wit this change there would be no build that counters the boon spam in wvw. I thought you wanted to stay away from that mode in the first place, what happened? Yes, epi is that integral, and what I posted was the footnotes version. > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > @"Nimon.7840" said: > > > @"steki.1478" said: > > > > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > > > > @"Walhalla.5473" said: > > > > > > @"Nimon.7840" said: > > > > > > > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > > > > > > > @"steki.1478" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"steki.1478" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"steki.1478" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What? You do know that epi transfers nothing if the target you're casting it on dies before the orbs reaches their next target right? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Which takes at least 2 seconds which is enough to bounce. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Trash mobs take less than a second to melt from condis. Unless you're bouncing from seekers, you have precast epi to bounce it from my experience. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >or (even better example) additional hit every time other ele's MS hits the boss. Would be ridiculous dont you think? Well, that's exactly how epidemic works. > > > > > > > > > > > > > sure so long as the additional meteors deal no damage if no skills have been used. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Anyways, you're comparing skills which have completely different functionality. The main thing they have in common is Anet failing to balance them. MS was strong even after ICD, epi is strong after they made it into projectiles. Now MS got nerfed again because it's strong on already strong build, but the fact that necro is under performing doesnt make epidemic bouncing any less broken. They certainly didnt make that change to nerf the class, they did it to stop bouncing and they failed with that. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Wouldnt it be better for necro to be "viable" on most bosses instead of completely broken on few bosses with adds and garbage on others? Since it usually takes pugs months to get used to new meta, necro wont even be asked for in LFG. I thought necro players wanted to actually play necro in raids, not complain all the time how dps-focused class X performs better than them. Static groups are obviously a non factor since you could always do this in organized groups. However, as long as shroud, high base barrier and epidemic are a thing, that's not happening (and it shouldn't). There has to be some drawbacks. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > sure, suggest how. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I did, but it's burried in amazing design of these forums. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Was something along lines to reduce base barrier but improve scaling (like heals were once broken on dps tempest/druid). Give epi an SoI treatment so it always shares a set amount of condies when target has only 1 condition (adds still die somewhat fast, easier to use in solo play, but doesnt do 50k dmg per tick). Once that is set just buff all condi traits from scourge and make a definite choice of either dps or support, not both at once. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ok, but epi is core necro, why does scourge have to be involved? Also that's more of a support buff, for 1 espec while nerfing a core skill that will also affect reaper, how will you compensate condi reaper and core necro for it? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Both condi necro and reaper are non existant anyways. Changing epi and buffing scourge makes scourge a dedicated condi spec. You dont need every elite spec to do the same thing. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And it wouldn't really be a nerf. Necro and reaper can mostly stack bleed and poison so their epi is weak to begin with. With SoI-like epidemic you would need only 1 burning stack and you would instantly transfer multiple stacks. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So let me get this straight, you want to nerf a skill that's weak on 2/3 of the build that can use it, all because 1 build is op with it, without compensating the others because "they are non existant anyway", rather than just nerfing the 1 build to be better at supporting rather than condi stacking so their epi won't be as situationally op as it is now? > > > > > > > > > > > > Just don't try. Steki seems like a big troll to me that just wants his class to be top DPS and other aren't allowed to do any DPS. > > > > > > > > > > > > I really can't understand why everyone is crying bout necro. Because he's finally good at 1/3 of the encounters in raids? And only while stacking necro? > > > > > > > > > > Good ( or broken ) at 1/3 of the encounters and only when class stacking.... Not nearly good enough. Hence why talk about making Necros damage much more independent from Epi. I want Necro to be good without the need of class stacking and also at more than 1/3 of the fights, but for this something needs to happen to this class, and Epi needs a change. > > > > > > > > > > > @"TexZero.7910" said: > > > > > > I disagree with a lot of this premise. Necro has a defined niche being stronger than many other roles under very specific conditions, this is fine. > > > > > > > > > > Being non-viable at most fights while dishing out damage that borders on insanity in the ones it does well ( while also needing class stacking ) is not even a niche. Its bad balancing and covering up the fact that the class itself is not doing well and needs some love. And epi right now is capable of restricting boss fight designs. You can't really do boss fights with more than one boss at a time or fights where there are multiple bosses with a shared healthpool without considering how make sure that epi isn't breaking that fight. > > > > > > > > > > Again Necro needs to be good without relying on that one skill that capable of breaking encounters. > > > > > > > > Epi needs to change, we need to loose the 2nd hp bar, we need to have lower hp, etc, etc, etc.... > > > > So tell me, what specific changes to necro do you think needs to happen? > > > > > > You're like a broken record, please start reading comments instead of asking same questions over and over again. This thread is beyond point. > > > > > > Nimon, if you actually read any of my comments you would see that I want necro viable on its own, not because of epi stacking. > > > > > > I see why Anet never balanced necro so far, even its players dont know what they want. > > > > Oh sorry then. I read most of them. Seems i missed some. > > Sure. If we can get to 36k DPS without epibounce and epi is only for cleave. > > No problem. Nerf it. > > > > But not: nerf epi and don't give compensation > > > > And yes. Necro as a whole needs a rework pretty badly. > > Almost everything is about shroud on necro. But having shroud as the only real good dmg and defensive option at the same time, is really kitten bad and an awful thing to balance. > > > > There needs to be blocks added, and some good mobility like leaps on weapons. > > > > > > In order to get 36k personal dps, you'd have to lose the barrier spam, get more ground-targeted skills and receive a set of skills that require you to pick up stuff from the ground, hoping that nobody else picks them first. Or reduce their dps and increase their barrier, boon, and healing spam. I'd be fine either way, but I really do want a support necro that can heal, and boon spam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TexZero.7910 Posted May 28, 2018 Share Posted May 28, 2018 > @"Voltekka.2375" said: > Funny, because in wvw both epidemic AND shroud skills were among the first to get nerfed in necro. Actually, that honor goes to minions and spectral skills. But as you can see with the lovely trend of "balancing necro" it's always been net negative because a handful of players complain as you guys are doing now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voltekka.2375 Posted May 28, 2018 Share Posted May 28, 2018 > @"TexZero.7910" said: > > @"Voltekka.2375" said: > > Funny, because in wvw both epidemic AND shroud skills were among the first to get nerfed in necro. > > Actually, that honor goes to minions and spectral skills. > > But as you can see with the lovely trend of "balancing necro" it's always been net negative because a handful of players complain as you guys are doing now. > > You probably dont play wvw, its ok. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feanor.2358 Posted May 28, 2018 Share Posted May 28, 2018 > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > Or reduce their dps and increase their barrier, boon, and healing spam. I'd be fine either way, but I really do want a support necro that can heal, and boon spam Yeah, that's valid too. Just can't be good at too many things at once. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TexZero.7910 Posted May 28, 2018 Share Posted May 28, 2018 > @"Voltekka.2375" said: > > @"TexZero.7910" said: > > > @"Voltekka.2375" said: > > > Funny, because in wvw both epidemic AND shroud skills were among the first to get nerfed in necro. > > > > Actually, that honor goes to minions and spectral skills. > > > > But as you can see with the lovely trend of "balancing necro" it's always been net negative because a handful of players complain as you guys are doing now. > > > > > > You probably dont play wvw, its ok. You probably have only been playing WvW since Desert BL was added, it's okay. Some of us quite fondly remember the days of Necro's trolling hard with spectral skills. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voltekka.2375 Posted May 28, 2018 Share Posted May 28, 2018 > @"TexZero.7910" said: > > @"Voltekka.2375" said: > > > @"TexZero.7910" said: > > > > @"Voltekka.2375" said: > > > > Funny, because in wvw both epidemic AND shroud skills were among the first to get nerfed in necro. > > > > > > Actually, that honor goes to minions and spectral skills. > > > > > > But as you can see with the lovely trend of "balancing necro" it's always been net negative because a handful of players complain as you guys are doing now. > > > > > > > > > > You probably dont play wvw, its ok. > > You probably have on been playing WvW since Desert BL was added, it's okay. > Some of us quite fondly remember the days of Necro's trolling hard with spectral skills. If you honestly feel that epidemic wasnt broken in wvw... Dunno what to say. Scourge is still broken as hell,despite the nerfs. That means that Anet clearly dont know what theyre doing, or they dont know how to balance stuff. Imagine what would happen if epidemic was in its prenerf stat, with scourge in existence. Instead of bashing others, you could actually care about necro getting proper balance, instead of insisting that "epidemic is fine, you are all negative". I want necro to be fun to play, I want nec to be a useful class in all modes because it is properly balanced, not cause it has a ridiculously overpowered skill that defines the entire class. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raizel.8175 Posted May 28, 2018 Share Posted May 28, 2018 I actually like the idea of implementing a buff on the NPCs you're using Epidemic on to prevent another Epidemic for a certain amount of time. That solution would still enable Epi-bouncing on certain bosses but the degree of coordination would be higher. It probably would still be broken at bosses like Sabetha, but the situation at bosses like Desmina would be defused. It would also add more diversity in squad-setups. In return though, Necro should receive some buffs that make the class viable even without having to rely on Epidemic. I also don't see the need to turn Scourge into a support-only spec. Other specs also have different options. Having both a support- and a dps-build on Scourge would be fine. Another solution could be that the stacks of each condition transfered is lowered per Epidemic used (like initial 25, then 15, then 5 or something like that). That would lead to maybe two or three Necros being nice while each additional Necro is no use whatsoever. About the Weaver-part of this discussion: I really think that Weaver is the worst spec ever in this game. It's the epitome of classical trinity-based gameplay and thus doesn't fit into the game at all on a conceptual level. It's even worse than the Chrono/Druid-Supremacy. No spec in the game should be only DPS, there should always - maybe albeit rudimentary - support-functions. A game that's more or less focused on movement also shouldn't have a spec that can only realize its full potential while (mostly) standing still. I'd welcome an overhaul of Weaver. Give it some support-capabilities, some reliable CC, lower the damage a bit, make Sword/X as single-target-build stronger than Staff and make the rotation somewhat easier. This game is dominantly focused on mechanics anyway and not on dps. Just my thoughts though. :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malediktus.9250 Posted May 28, 2018 Author Share Posted May 28, 2018 > @"Raizel.8175" said: > > About the Weaver-part of this discussion: I really think that Weaver is the worst spec ever in this game. It's the epitome of classical trinity-based gameplay and thus doesn't fit into the game at all on a conceptual level. It's even worse than the Chrono/Druid-Supremacy. No spec in the game should be only DPS, there should always - maybe albeit rudimentary - support-functions. A game that's more or less focused on movement also shouldn't have a spec that can only realize its full potential while (mostly) standing still. I'd welcome an overhaul of Weaver. Give it some support-capabilities, some reliable CC, lower the damage a bit, make Sword/X as single-target-build stronger than Staff and make the rotation somewhat easier. This game is dominantly focused on mechanics anyway and not on dps. > > Just my thoughts though. :D I actually think having no real trinity hurts the game more than anything. If everyone can do everything (or at least multiple things with the same build), then people play alongside each other (= alone in a group) instead of having to work together. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raizel.8175 Posted May 29, 2018 Share Posted May 29, 2018 > @"Malediktus.9250" said: > > @"Raizel.8175" said: > > > > About the Weaver-part of this discussion: I really think that Weaver is the worst spec ever in this game. It's the epitome of classical trinity-based gameplay and thus doesn't fit into the game at all on a conceptual level. It's even worse than the Chrono/Druid-Supremacy. No spec in the game should be only DPS, there should always - maybe albeit rudimentary - support-functions. A game that's more or less focused on movement also shouldn't have a spec that can only realize its full potential while (mostly) standing still. I'd welcome an overhaul of Weaver. Give it some support-capabilities, some reliable CC, lower the damage a bit, make Sword/X as single-target-build stronger than Staff and make the rotation somewhat easier. This game is dominantly focused on mechanics anyway and not on dps. > > > > Just my thoughts though. :D > > I actually think having no real trinity hurts the game more than anything. If everyone can do everything (or at least multiple things with the same build), then people play alongside each other (= alone in a group) instead of having to work together. I agree. But we already have that problem with the trinity-like playstyle the game currently offers. The overabundance of support of Chrono/Druid (alongside with their respective tank- and healer-roles) already negates true cooperative gameplay in most cases and allows pure "selfish" builds like Weaver in the first place. It's also a problem of general encounter-design, not just purely one of balancing though. I mean, I've played a lot of games in which vocal communication was mandatory even for semi-hardcore content, but in GW2, you don't even have to communicate all that much even for what is considered to be hardcore content here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TexZero.7910 Posted May 29, 2018 Share Posted May 29, 2018 > @"Voltekka.2375" said: > If you honestly feel that epidemic wasnt broken in wvw... Dunno what to say. Scourge is still broken as hell,despite the nerfs. That means that Anet clearly dont know what theyre doing, or they dont know how to balance stuff. Imagine what would happen if epidemic was in its prenerf stat, with scourge in existence. > Instead of bashing others, you could actually care about necro getting proper balance, instead of insisting that "epidemic is fine, you are all negative". I want necro to be fun to play, I want nec to be a useful class in all modes because it is properly balanced, not cause it has a ridiculously overpowered skill that defines the entire class. Did i ever once state Epi didn't have issues in WvW ? I'd love you to point out where that was said. I said the first set of skills necro's abused that got gutted for WvW were spectral and minions. If you cannot handle the truth it would be wise of you not to assume inappropriately that you are somehow more informed and know the mode better than others AS YOU DID with your snarky reply. I've given my 2cents on what Necro as a whole needs to be balanced and it's not changing Epidemic. Sorry you don't like that, but unlike you and vast majority of this thread who wants to balance on numbers alone, i don't. I do not see a problem with this iteration of Epidemic because as has been pointed out various times it's only OP when you start stacking past absurdity which can be done with literally any class. This ceased being Epi is OP and moved onto Class Stacking dumb and the Mechanical Depth of Raid design is Lacking at that point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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