Epidemic in raids needs to be nerfed

[Feanor.2358]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > But at 29k, it would be trash.

> > > That's not however weaver-specific.

> >

> > But it is worse for weavers because of how ridiculously unreliable their dps is.

> > See my post in [this](en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/48330/should-the-difficulty-level-of-skill-rotation-reflect-in-the-amount-of-dps-or-being-melee-ranged "this") thread.

> Curiously how that never seemed to apply to engis, who had even more complex rotation and unreliable dps. Also, by your own post that you linked, DE daggers/DD staff should at least get some points for being strictly melee builds (and equally squishy as eles, btw).

 

It does apply, and I've even mentioned condi engi as an example. But I don't think their dps is more unreliable overall. Their rotation is only more complex on the mechanical/apm side.

 

Thieves do get points for melee range, but that's literally their only shortcoming.

[TexZero.7910]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> Thieves do get points for melee range, but that's literally their only shortcoming.

 

Only shortcoming ?

Same base HP as Ele, Limited to no AoE, Outside of BVenom little to no utility.

 

But sure "only shortcoming".

[Feanor.2358]

> @"TexZero.7910" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > Thieves do get points for melee range, but that's literally their only shortcoming.

>

> Only shortcoming ?

> Same base HP as Ele, Limited to no AoE, Outside of BVenom little to no utility.

>

> But sure "only shortcoming".

 

1. Same base hp, higher base armor, higher eHP.

2. The importance of cleave is greatly exaggerated, especially in raids. Being not really a good pick on Sloth & Xera hardly warrants being OP everywhere else. FYI, ele is also a not good pick on Matthias and Desmina.

3. Weaver doesn't even have BVenom.

 

So let's call all these a tie, even though Thief is actually in a slightly better position. The remaining factors are ele's ability to range and its much more unreliable rotation. But then you don't really range anything except Deimos on the "safe" strat. Everywhere else you're stacked on the boss, because it's where all the buffs and healing are. So there.

[Anchoku.8142]

Why is this thread still active?

 

Epi-bouncing was an unintended use of the skill resulting in high dps when two or more Necro's coordinated their use at the right moment. Players coordinating skill combinations should be rewarded for doing so but the dps increase was so much it might as well have been called an exploit.

 

* I am fine with the Epi-nerf.

* I am fine with a profession that peaks around 27k-29k dps when built for dps-ing.

* I am not fine with a profession that does not bring needed group support when building for support, or enough minor support when building for dps, to make up for the difference from expected dps.

 

What kind of support does Necro bring? Here is a list:

1. Vampiric Presence (AoE siphon)

2. Well of Blood (AoE heal)

3. Well of Power (AoE condi-flip)

4. Well of Darkness (AoE blind)

5. Staff 2: Mark of Blood (AoE regen)

6. Focus 4: Reaper's Touch (RNG regen)

7. Signet of Vampirism (RNG siphon)

8. Blood is Power (AoE might)

9. Corrosive Poison Cloud (blocks missiles)

10. Plague Signet (transfers 1 condition from an ally every 3 sec to the Necro)

11. Signet of Undeath (3 sec cast to res 3 downed players that have to be right next to each other on a long cool down)

12. Spectral Wall (protection and ethereal field)

13. Life from Death (small AoE heal exiting shroud)

14. Abrasive Grit (barriers also remove a condition and grant might)

15. Transfusion (AoE siphon heal and 600 teleport)

16. Nefarious Favor (AoE 1-condi-flip)

17. Oppressive Collapse (AoE condi to might)

18. Dessicate (AoE might)

19. Ghastly Breach (AoE might)

20. Ritual of Life (AoE heal with res)

21. Fields; dark (7), poison (4 +minions), ice (1-Reaper), light (1), ethereal (1)

 

Look at this list and tell me what you see, what you think groups need a Necro for.

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"Anchoku.8142" said:

> Look at this list and tell me what you see, what you think groups need a Necro for.

Needs? Nothing. That's the point. There's nothing Necro offers that would be worth the dps sacrificed.

 

If you want subpar dps class to be brought for boons, then those boons need to offer to the group more dps than is lost by taking that support instead of a good dps. And those boons must not have another, better source available.

 

 

[maxwelgm.4315]

> @"Anchoku.8142" said:

> Why is this thread still active?

>

> Epi-bouncing was an unintended use of the skill resulting in high dps when two or more Necro's coordinated their use at the right moment. Players coordinating skill combinations should be rewarded for doing so but the dps increase was so much it might as well have been called an exploit.

>

> * I am fine with the Epi-nerf.

> * I am fine with a profession that peaks around 27k-29k dps when built for dps-ing.

> * I am not fine with a profession that does not bring needed group support when building for support, or enough minor support when building for dps, to make up for the difference from expected dps.

>

> What kind of support does Necro bring? Here is a list:

> 1. Vampiric Presence (AoE siphon)

> 2. Well of Blood (AoE heal)

> 3. Well of Power (AoE condi-flip)

> 4. Well of Darkness (AoE blind)

> 5. Staff 2: Mark of Blood (AoE regen)

> 6. Focus 4: Reaper's Touch (RNG regen)

> 7. Signet of Vampirism (RNG siphon)

> 8. Blood is Power (AoE might)

> 9. Corrosive Poison Cloud (blocks missiles)

> 10. Plague Signet (transfers 1 condition from an ally every 3 sec to the Necro)

> 11. Signet of Undeath (3 sec cast to res 3 downed players that have to be right next to each other on a long cool down)

> 12. Spectral Wall (protection and ethereal field)

> 13. Life from Death (small AoE heal exiting shroud)

> 14. Abrasive Grit (barriers also remove a condition and grant might)

> 15. Transfusion (AoE siphon heal and 600 teleport)

> 16. Nefarious Favor (AoE 1-condi-flip)

> 17. Oppressive Collapse (AoE condi to might)

> 18. Dessicate (AoE might)

> 19. Ghastly Breach (AoE might)

> 20. Ritual of Life (AoE heal with res)

> 21. Fields; dark (7), poison (4 +minions), ice (1-Reaper), light (1), ethereal (1)

>

> Look at this list and tell me what you see, what you think groups need a Necro for.

 

To sum up your post, necro is awesome and can soft carry groups that would otherwise die (said groups don't need to worry as much with dodging with all the barriers and such) to bosses, but it won't happen because pug players and speed runners strictly define optimal = viable. So yeah, why is this thread still here? Player mentality won't change and Anet shouldn't keep accommodating to it. If anything they should introduce mechanics that enforce the variety, make use of the fact that classes are unique and 10 players is a large number (e.g specifically favor a single trait such as health stealing or barrier during a specific fight).

[Nephalem.8921]

> @"Anchoku.8142" said:

> Why is this thread still active?

>

> Epi-bouncing was an unintended use of the skill resulting in high dps when two or more Necro's coordinated their use at the right moment. Players coordinating skill combinations should be rewarded for doing so but the dps increase was so much it might as well have been called an exploit.

>

 

> * I am fine with a profession that peaks around 27k-29k dps when built for dps-ing.

 

What? That just makes it immediately useless at that role. Why would you want a necro over anything else than? Most other professions can do 20-30% more dps and have burst + other benefits. Low dps just destroys strategies and makes some fights and especially fractal fights tedious. Necro just needs a rework to be less focused around shroud facetanking.

Also 27k peak dps would just be an instant kick from like 99% of pug groups. Thats not okay.

 

> * I am not fine with a profession that does not bring needed group support when building for support, or enough minor support when building for dps, to make up for the difference from expected dps.

 

Half of that list is just might stacking. Aoe regen on staff? Why do you even list that there.

 

 

[Nephalem.8921]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > @"TexZero.7910" said:

> > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > Thieves do get points for melee range, but that's literally their only shortcoming.

> >

> > Only shortcoming ?

> > Same base HP as Ele, Limited to no AoE, Outside of BVenom little to no utility.

> >

> > But sure "only shortcoming".

>

> 1. Same base hp, higher base armor, higher eHP.

Thats neglectable.

> 2. The importance of cleave is greatly exaggerated, especially in raids. Being not really a good pick on Sloth & Xera hardly warrants being OP everywhere else. FYI, ele is also a not good pick on Matthias and Desmina.

You just underestimate good cleave. Try stacking deadeyes on any boss with adds and you will understand. Statues at KC dont die that easy anymore, MO statues dont die either. Deimos prides take like no dmg. Reveal is btw still on raid encounters. As soon as there is a fixated mechanic it comes with a nice 30sec revealed debuff.

> 3. Weaver doesn't even have BVenom.

It has LH 3 + IB 5. Stop arguing like Weaver has no support. Weapon sharing is also pretty imortant in fractals and boosts party dps a lot.

>

> So let's call all these a tie, even though Thief is actually in a slightly better position. The remaining factors are ele's ability to range and its much more unreliable rotation. But then you don't really range anything except Deimos on the "safe" strat. Everywhere else you're stacked on the boss, because it's where all the buffs and healing are. So there.

 

Stacking Deadeyes just doesn't work really well for most encounters while stacking weavers still does. At least it is not optimal anymore. I'm so sick of weavers everywhere but weaver mains just can't accept that there are 8 other professions that need to be relevant aswell. At least weavers are now slightly less op in fractals. Still top though.

 

On topic: Glad epi is finally fixed. It removed just every difficulties from fights like SH or Xera. But as expected necro is dead in pve again.

[Grogba.6204]

The fix to Epi feels more like a bandaid than an thoughtful act of balancing though. It was probably much easier to just cut the duration in half but it could have been done differently and in a way that doesn't neuter Necromancer but oh well.

[Anchoku.8142]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"Anchoku.8142" said:

> > Look at this list and tell me what you see, what you think groups need a Necro for.

> Needs? Nothing. That's the point. There's nothing Necro offers that would be worth the dps sacrificed.

>

> If you want subpar dps class to be brought for boons, then those boons need to offer to the group more dps than is lost by taking that support instead of a good dps. And those boons must not have another, better source available.

>

>

That was my conclusion, too.

 

I made the list to see all of the support options that might be used by the balance team to justify the low dps on dps builds and even lower dps on support builds.

 

Do small barriers on power-Scourge justify its dps? How about taking Blood Magic on power or condi-Reaper for Vampiric Presence? Is AoE might in short supply? Maybe more dark fields and regen would be useful.

[Walhalla.5473]

> @"Grogba.6204" said:

> The fix to Epi feels more like a bandaid than an thoughtful act of balancing though. It was probably much easier to just cut the duration in half but it could have been done differently and in a way that doesn't neuter Necromancer but oh well.

 

They could have buffed some condi necro skills to compensate for the well deserved epi nerf. That would have made sure that necro would be still good.

[TexZero.7910]

> @"Walhalla.5473" said:

> > @"Grogba.6204" said:

> > The fix to Epi feels more like a bandaid than an thoughtful act of balancing though. It was probably much easier to just cut the duration in half but it could have been done differently and in a way that doesn't neuter Necromancer but oh well.

>

> They could have buffed some condi necro skills to compensate for the well deserved epi nerf. That would have made sure that necro would be still good.

 

They could have, but instead they decided scepter didn't need to corrupt on auto chain and instead thought better to give corrupt boon charges :trollface:

 

[Walhalla.5473]

> @"Anchoku.8142" said:

> Why is this thread still active?

> * I am fine with a profession that peaks around 27k-29k dps when built for dps-ing.

 

27k DPS peak for a class would only be fine if the best DPS build would be like 29k or 30k dps. Nearly all good dps builds are between 31k and 34k which is a good range. ( counting small only ). There are now two classes who are completely outside of it, Thief and Necro. Anet just needs to adjust those two classes and things would be much better.

[Anchoku.8142]

> @"Walhalla.5473" said:

> > @"Anchoku.8142" said:

> > Why is this thread still active?

> > * I am fine with a profession that peaks around 27k-29k dps when built for dps-ing.

>

> 27k DPS peak for a class would only be fine if the best DPS build would be like 29k or 30k dps. Nearly all good dps builds are between 31k and 34k which is a good range. ( counting small only ). There are now two classes who are completely outside of it, Thief and Necro. Anet just needs to adjust those two classes and things would be much better.

 

27k dps would be perfectly fine if it gave 1k dps to 5 allies, helped another profession to claim a Mes or Rang slot, or allowed allies higher dps builds with less condi mitigation, etc.

 

Is balance so difficult, or are we all missing Necro's hidden uber-skillz? Honestly, the gap to becoming "average" is so small this should be easy to balance.

[Eramonster.2718]

> @"Walhalla.5473" said:

> > @"Grogba.6204" said:

> > The fix to Epi feels more like a bandaid than an thoughtful act of balancing though. It was probably much easier to just cut the duration in half but it could have been done differently and in a way that doesn't neuter Necromancer but oh well.

>

> They could have buffed some condi necro skills to compensate for the well deserved epi nerf. That would have made sure that necro would be still good.

 

Couldn't agree more. Epi is the only reliable source of doing aoe damage for condi necro and it's specializations. The nerf is meant to curb the exploitation but it effected the whole class profession :anguished:.

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"Eramonster.2718" said:

> > @"Walhalla.5473" said:

> > > @"Grogba.6204" said:

> > > The fix to Epi feels more like a bandaid than an thoughtful act of balancing though. It was probably much easier to just cut the duration in half but it could have been done differently and in a way that doesn't neuter Necromancer but oh well.

> >

> > They could have buffed some condi necro skills to compensate for the well deserved epi nerf. That would have made sure that necro would be still good.

>

> Couldn't agree more. Epi is the only reliable source of doing aoe damage for condi necro and it's specializations. The nerf is meant to curb the exploitation but it effected the whole class profession :anguished:.

Basically, as every necro player was saying : epi needed to be nerfed, but only _after_ making the class not thrash tier without it.

 

[Feanor.2358]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"Eramonster.2718" said:

> > > @"Walhalla.5473" said:

> > > > @"Grogba.6204" said:

> > > > The fix to Epi feels more like a bandaid than an thoughtful act of balancing though. It was probably much easier to just cut the duration in half but it could have been done differently and in a way that doesn't neuter Necromancer but oh well.

> > >

> > > They could have buffed some condi necro skills to compensate for the well deserved epi nerf. That would have made sure that necro would be still good.

> >

> > Couldn't agree more. Epi is the only reliable source of doing aoe damage for condi necro and it's specializations. The nerf is meant to curb the exploitation but it effected the whole class profession :anguished:.

> Basically, as every necro player was saying : epi needed to be nerfed, but only _after_ making the class not thrash tier without it.

>

 

So a full balance cycle where everyone played epi bounce everywhere because it did 55k boss dps per scourge? Sounds legit.

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > > @"Eramonster.2718" said:

> > > > @"Walhalla.5473" said:

> > > > > @"Grogba.6204" said:

> > > > > The fix to Epi feels more like a bandaid than an thoughtful act of balancing though. It was probably much easier to just cut the duration in half but it could have been done differently and in a way that doesn't neuter Necromancer but oh well.

> > > >

> > > > They could have buffed some condi necro skills to compensate for the well deserved epi nerf. That would have made sure that necro would be still good.

> > >

> > > Couldn't agree more. Epi is the only reliable source of doing aoe damage for condi necro and it's specializations. The nerf is meant to curb the exploitation but it effected the whole class profession :anguished:.

> > Basically, as every necro player was saying : epi needed to be nerfed, but only _after_ making the class not thrash tier without it.

> >

>

> So a full balance cycle where everyone played epi bounce everywhere because it did 55k boss dps per scourge? Sounds legit.

More legit than a whole season (and not the first one) of a class being out of meta due to overnerfing.

 

A season in the spotlight for a normally underused class is not going to kill the game. Tempest, for example, had at least whole season of 60k+ boss damage which wasn't even dependant on other weavers to pull off (and it _wasn't_ the underused class before). Haven't seen you complaining then. And besides, you seriously overestimate that "everyone".

 

Although, yeah, more frequent balancing would do a lot of good for everyone.

[TexZero.7910]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> So a full balance cycle where everyone played epi bounce everywhere because it did 55k boss dps per scourge? Sounds legit.

 

1 balance cycle compared to Ele's having nearly 6 years now ?

 

Yeah i'm okay with that, i'm sure many people are.

[Feanor.2358]

> @"TexZero.7910" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > So a full balance cycle where everyone played epi bounce everywhere because it did 55k boss dps per scourge? Sounds legit.

>

> 1 balance cycle compared to Ele's having nearly 6 years now ?

>

> Yeah i'm okay with that, i'm sure many people are.

 

6 years of being broken? I don't think so.

[TexZero.7910]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > @"TexZero.7910" said:

> > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > So a full balance cycle where everyone played epi bounce everywhere because it did 55k boss dps per scourge? Sounds legit.

> >

> > 1 balance cycle compared to Ele's having nearly 6 years now ?

> >

> > Yeah i'm okay with that, i'm sure many people are.

>

> 6 years of being broken? I don't think so.

 

Yes yes, we know you don't. Outside of the launch there's been exactly 1 time ele wasn't meta. The same cannot be said of necro.

[Feanor.2358]

Being in meta isn't the same as being broken.

[Agrippa Oculus.3726]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> Being in meta isn't the same as being broken.

Well, the fact it has (near) always been one of the chosen few (read: 4 out of 9 classes) to always be in the meta, is already a sign of it being broken! No class should ever have that privilege or all classes should!

[Feanor.2358]

> @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > Being in meta isn't the same as being broken.

> Well, the fact it has (near) always been one of the chosen few (read: 4 out of 9 classes) to always be in the meta, is already a sign of it being broken!

 

No, it isn't.

 

> @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said:

> No class should ever have that privilege or all classes should!

 

Agreed, but this only means there were balance issues *somewhere*, not necessarily with ele. There have been times where the damage output was too high, but it most certainly was not all the time. Last time ele was actually too high was right after PoF launch and even then it wasn't the most OP thing (hint: there were Firebrands and later Mirages).

 

P.S. Besides. Prior to the last patch each and every profession had at least one usable dps build, with Thief being somewhat lackluster. The current balance simply swapped the roles of Necro and Thief, making the lackluster class broken and the broken class lackluster.

[Voltekka.2375]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said:

> > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > Being in meta isn't the same as being broken.

> > Well, the fact it has (near) always been one of the chosen few (read: 4 out of 9 classes) to always be in the meta, is already a sign of it being broken!

>

> No, it isn't.

>

> > @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said:

> > No class should ever have that privilege or all classes should!

>

> Agreed, but this only means there were balance issues *somewhere*, not necessarily with ele. There have been times where the damage output was too high, but it most certainly was not all the time. Last time ele was actually too high was right after PoF launch and even then it wasn't the most OP thing (hint: there were Firebrands and later Mirages).

>

> P.S. Besides. Prior to the last patch each and every profession had at least one usable dps build, with Thief being somewhat lackluster. The current balance simply swapped the roles of Necro and Thief, making the lackluster class broken and the broken class lackluster.

 

> @"Karl McLain.5604" said:

> An update on this:

> The window for hot-fixing the issue was missed. The fix will be going out with the next update, which is the planned for this upcoming Tuesday. Damage is currently 60% above what's intended (per-strike) and we'll be setting it back down to its normal levels.

 

Just thought to leave this here.