Epidemic in raids needs to be nerfed

[DutchRiders.2871]

> @"Sublimatio.6981" said:

> > @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said:

> > > @"Malediktus.9250" said:

> > > 23% is justified. Scourge is much easier to play so it should be less rewarding.

> >

> > I always wonder how these ppl react if ANet would flip the coin tomorrow, giving the Necro _the_ highest dps on golem with 23% difference compared to Ele, you just need "a very complex rotation" and its health bar lowered a bit ... I would not mind at all if they do that, but I bet all these Ele mains will be the very first to complain about how OP Necros are all of the sudden, and how quickly they need to be nerfed. I know: all assumptions, but there is only one way to find out ... Please ANet ... Please! It's about time the tables are turned!

>

> lmao i just imagined that and you are so right :)

 

Scourges being top dps by these margins all while being such a safe pick is a balance issue. Regardless of whether weaver is to strong.

 

Most of the CMs are cheesed by scourges.

[Agrippa Oculus.3726]

> @"steki.1478" said:

> I'm not saying any of those 2 classes are op/up, or that necro needs nerf (it needs some buffs actually), but epidemic is simply game breaking because it's such a low effort/high reward skill on a class which has enough self sustain, making it very easy to stack and abuse.

 

Oh, I agree that Epi needs to be nerfed, but there are some ppl here that find it ok to _only_ do that, and forget about the buffs that the Necro so severely needs. The Necro is atm only useful in raids because of Epi, taking that away (again: still needs to happen, imo) will make it utterly useless in the PvE endgame (and before anyone starts: yea, they would be still viable, but that's any class between level 60 and 80 with green/yellow armor on!). And to only throw that on highly subjective reasoning like, awwwwwww this button pressing and attunement swapping is sooooooo hard, is pathetic at best! If that's really the excuse for justifying so much more DPS (because that 23% is only the _small_ hitbox advantage they have, let's not talk about the _actual_ raid boss advantage they have) .... well it doesn't it just doesn't justify anything for that matter! It's what PC gaming is all about ... pressing buttons and moving your mouse!

 

> @"steki.1478" said:

> How many times have you heard someone say to a new player "play weaver/chrono, it's the strongest dps/support for raids"?

All the time!!! Why?

To back it up, why in the hell would you tell a new player to play Necro, Thief, Revenant, only to be rejected in the PvE endgame by the community. You must really hate that new player, to give him/her that advice. Hell, if you really think playing Ele/Weaver is that hard, a new player has a whole story and open world to first practise its "complex" rotations, which would make its welcome into raiding and fractals even smoother! I would definitely know what to suggest!

[steki.1478]

> @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said:

> > @"steki.1478" said:

> > I'm not saying any of those 2 classes are op/up, or that necro needs nerf (it needs some buffs actually), but epidemic is simply game breaking because it's such a low effort/high reward skill on a class which has enough self sustain, making it very easy to stack and abuse.

>

> Oh, I agree that Epi needs to be nerfed, but there are some ppl here that find it ok to _only_ do that, and forget about the buffs that the Necro so severely needs. The Necro is atm only useful in raids because of Epi, taking that away (again: still needs to happen, imo) will make it utterly useless in the PvE endgame (and before anyone starts: yea, they would be still viable, but that's any class between level 60 and 80 with green/yellow armor on!). And to only throw that on highly subjective reasoning like, awwwwwww this button pressing and attunement swapping is sooooooo hard, is pathetic at best! If that's really the excuse for justifying so much more DPS (because that 23% is only the _small_ hitbox advantage they have, let's not talk about the _actual_ raid boss advantage they have) .... well it doesn't it just doesn't justify anything for that matter! It's what PC gaming is all about ... pressing buttons and moving your mouse!

>

> > @"steki.1478" said:

> > How many times have you heard someone say to a new player "play weaver/chrono, it's the strongest dps/support for raids"?

> All the time!!! Why?

> To back it up, why in the hell would you tell a new player to play Necro, Thief, Revenant, only to be rejected in the PvE endgame by the community. You must really hate that new player, to give him/her that advice. Hell, if you really think playing Ele/Weaver is that hard, a new player has a whole story and open world to first practise its "complex" rotations, which would make its welcome into raiding and fractals even smoother! I would definitely know what to suggest!

 

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/38002/easy-dps-class-for-raid#latest

 

>I'm currently raiding with a condi scourge, and I found it to be **easy to play**. I want to play another class that has great DPS and is **easy to play** well in raids.

 

Why bother learning encounters on a class that requires perfect positioning and rotation when you can play something easy and mindless while doing slightly less dps for no effort? Considering that most of training guilds dont care about what you play, why make it hard when you can do it easy way?

[Agrippa Oculus.3726]

> @"steki.1478" said:

> > @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said:

> > > @"steki.1478" said:

> > > I'm not saying any of those 2 classes are op/up, or that necro needs nerf (it needs some buffs actually), but epidemic is simply game breaking because it's such a low effort/high reward skill on a class which has enough self sustain, making it very easy to stack and abuse.

> >

> > Oh, I agree that Epi needs to be nerfed, but there are some ppl here that find it ok to _only_ do that, and forget about the buffs that the Necro so severely needs. The Necro is atm only useful in raids because of Epi, taking that away (again: still needs to happen, imo) will make it utterly useless in the PvE endgame (and before anyone starts: yea, they would be still viable, but that's any class between level 60 and 80 with green/yellow armor on!). And to only throw that on highly subjective reasoning like, awwwwwww this button pressing and attunement swapping is sooooooo hard, is pathetic at best! If that's really the excuse for justifying so much more DPS (because that 23% is only the _small_ hitbox advantage they have, let's not talk about the _actual_ raid boss advantage they have) .... well it doesn't it just doesn't justify anything for that matter! It's what PC gaming is all about ... pressing buttons and moving your mouse!

> >

> > > @"steki.1478" said:

> > > How many times have you heard someone say to a new player "play weaver/chrono, it's the strongest dps/support for raids"?

> > All the time!!! Why?

> > To back it up, why in the hell would you tell a new player to play Necro, Thief, Revenant, only to be rejected in the PvE endgame by the community. You must really hate that new player, to give him/her that advice. Hell, if you really think playing Ele/Weaver is that hard, a new player has a whole story and open world to first practise its "complex" rotations, which would make its welcome into raiding and fractals even smoother! I would definitely know what to suggest!

>

> https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/38002/easy-dps-class-for-raid#latest

>

> >I'm currently raiding with a condi scourge, and I found it to be **easy to play**. I want to play another class that has great DPS and is **easy to play** well in raids.

>

> Why bother learning encounters on a class that requires perfect positioning and rotation when you can play something easy and mindless while doing slightly less dps for no effort? Considering that most of training guilds dont care about what you play, why make it hard when you can do it easy way?

 

Again, subjective and anecdotal! _You_ find that hard, but _he/she_ might not. Maybe _he/she_ had no problems at all (except for an hour practise at Golem) adapting to a Weaver rotation, but find it much harder to Shroud Dance (= position Ice fields so they don't get overwritten) when playing the **far** less damaging Condi Reaper ... And I can come up with many more examples for that matter (from perfect "Full Counter" rotations to "Unscathed Contender" maximizing), of which you probably have not tried any of these, so who are _you_ (or _me_ for that matter) to judge what is hard, and what isn't? It's all subjective!

[Malediktus.9250]

It is not about subjective and anecdotal. You can quantify how many steps a rotation has and the accuracy of timings required to pull off the optimal DPS.

Base health pool and easy of access to additional defenses without DPS loss can also be quantified. Basically the difficulty of anything that is not art or random can be quantified.

[Nephalem.8921]

> @"Malediktus.9250" said:

> It is not about subjective and anecdotal. You can quantify how many steps a rotation has and the accuracy of timings required to pull off the optimal DPS.

> Base health pool and easy of access to additional defenses without DPS loss can also be quantified. Basically the difficulty of anything that is not art or random can be quantified.

 

Condi engi should sit at 50k dps then but even sword weaver outdamages it. Rotation difficulty was never really rewarded with dps in this game.

Weaver is not that hard. Spellbreaker full counter rota and top mirage dps are way harder to pull off than Weaver rotations.

 

While it is true that Scourge gameplay is complete faceroll and epi bouncing isn't really hard just nerfing epi would destroy scourge in pve. It adds at least some depth to the profession. If you remove epi you are left with awesome "press all the buttons off cooldown" gameplay again.

 

Well it's still better than power Reaper. Change autocast to 2 and afk is not really good gameplay when the target reaches 50% hp.

 

[Talindra.4958]

> @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said:

 

> It's all very subjective: ask a good piano-player and they laugh at ALL Weavers how face-rolling easy it is to get SO much dps.

 

I suck at weaver in pve I hate to say that but I can do PvP averagely OK with weaver playing my own build s/d s/f etc.. but gee my dps rotation for pve really bad... u know I was so confident that I can do fine but the dps golem doesn't like me.. also with 350ping I'm kinda cripple a bit I think .. eventually I gave up trying ?? but it's always amazing to see others in the group that play weaver perform really well and shine. Good job to them.

[Malediktus.9250]

> @"Nephalem.8921" said:

> > @"Malediktus.9250" said:

> > It is not about subjective and anecdotal. You can quantify how many steps a rotation has and the accuracy of timings required to pull off the optimal DPS.

> > Base health pool and easy of access to additional defenses without DPS loss can also be quantified. Basically the difficulty of anything that is not art or random can be quantified.

>

> Condi engi should sit at 50k dps then but even sword weaver outdamages it. Rotation difficulty was never really rewarded with dps in this game.

> Weaver is not that hard. Spellbreaker full counter rota and top mirage dps are way harder to pull off than Weaver rotations.

>

> While it is true that Scourge gameplay is complete faceroll and epi bouncing isn't really hard just nerfing epi would destroy scourge in pve. It adds at least some depth to the profession. If you remove epi you are left with awesome "press all the buttons off cooldown" gameplay again.

>

> Well it's still better than power Reaper. Change autocast to 2 and afk is not really good gameplay when the target reaches 50% hp.

>

I agree, condi engi should probably be buffed

But regarding epi I disagree that it adds depths to the game. A one button trick is not really depth, it is just a way overpowered utility skill

[Talindra.4958]

Engineer is another prof I can manage ok in real life but omg really hopeless in game.. all the skills looks like perfume bottles to me not sure which one to pick

[Curennos.9307]

Give scourges another button that just makes their Shades pulse a strike. Remove the pulsed strike from f2-f4. Rebalance the skills and LF costs as needed:

 

- The skill that only has the shades do an attack would likely be low LF cost, low CD, to the point where it resulted in a DPS increase if you used only that skill (instead of f2 on CD and getting nothing out of the condi cleanse)

- f2 cleanse could be stronger/cost a little more/w-e they decide to do with it now that all Scourge's f-utility skills don't also have damage attached to them.

 

If anet really wants to make scourge's rotation less brain-dead, they could have the new 'shade attack' skill temporarily pause/stop current casts (not interrupt) when you use it, so you can't just...spam it while doing what you normally do, and instead have to time it properly - auto, shade, auto, shade, auto, skill/shade, etc.

[Nimon.7840]

> @"steki.1478" said:

> > @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said:

> > > @"steki.1478" said:

> > > I'm not saying any of those 2 classes are op/up, or that necro needs nerf (it needs some buffs actually), but epidemic is simply game breaking because it's such a low effort/high reward skill on a class which has enough self sustain, making it very easy to stack and abuse.

> >

> > Oh, I agree that Epi needs to be nerfed, but there are some ppl here that find it ok to _only_ do that, and forget about the buffs that the Necro so severely needs. The Necro is atm only useful in raids because of Epi, taking that away (again: still needs to happen, imo) will make it utterly useless in the PvE endgame (and before anyone starts: yea, they would be still viable, but that's any class between level 60 and 80 with green/yellow armor on!). And to only throw that on highly subjective reasoning like, awwwwwww this button pressing and attunement swapping is sooooooo hard, is pathetic at best! If that's really the excuse for justifying so much more DPS (because that 23% is only the _small_ hitbox advantage they have, let's not talk about the _actual_ raid boss advantage they have) .... well it doesn't it just doesn't justify anything for that matter! It's what PC gaming is all about ... pressing buttons and moving your mouse!

> >

> > > @"steki.1478" said:

> > > How many times have you heard someone say to a new player "play weaver/chrono, it's the strongest dps/support for raids"?

> > All the time!!! Why?

> > To back it up, why in the hell would you tell a new player to play Necro, Thief, Revenant, only to be rejected in the PvE endgame by the community. You must really hate that new player, to give him/her that advice. Hell, if you really think playing Ele/Weaver is that hard, a new player has a whole story and open world to first practise its "complex" rotations, which would make its welcome into raiding and fractals even smoother! I would definitely know what to suggest!

>

> https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/38002/easy-dps-class-for-raid#latest

>

> >I'm currently raiding with a condi scourge, and I found it to be **easy to play**. I want to play another class that has great DPS and is **easy to play** well in raids.

>

> Why bother learning encounters on a class that requires perfect positioning and rotation when you can play something easy and mindless while doing slightly less dps for no effort? Considering that most of training guilds dont care about what you play, why make it hard when you can do it easy way?

 

Well you need to learn encounters with all classes.

 

Perfect positioning?> @"DutchRiders.2871" said:

> > @"Sublimatio.6981" said:

> > > @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said:

> > > > @"Malediktus.9250" said:

> > > > 23% is justified. Scourge is much easier to play so it should be less rewarding.

> > >

That's a joke right? I almost never play ele and without looking at the rotation I pulled out more DPS than necros benchmark.

 

> > > I always wonder how these ppl react if ANet would flip the coin tomorrow, giving the Necro _the_ highest dps on golem with 23% difference compared to Ele, you just need "a very complex rotation" and its health bar lowered a bit ... I would not mind at all if they do that, but I bet all these Ele mains will be the very first to complain about how OP Necros are all of the sudden, and how quickly they need to be nerfed. I know: all assumptions, but there is only one way to find out ... Please ANet ... Please! It's about time the tables are turned!

> >

This would be awesome. Make ele players feel, what necros always feel.

 

> > lmao i just imagined that and you are so right :)

>

> Scourges being top dps by these margins all while being such a safe pick is a balance issue. Regardless of whether weaver is to strong.

>

> Most of the CMs are cheesed by scourges.

 

Lol I think u didn't understand why scourge is taken. Because of one skill: epidemic

And not because of barrier values. Or because it's easy to play. I know only a very small group of people, that can do 90% or higher of the benchmark on necro. But I do know a lot more people, that can do more dmg with ele than with necro, even doe they didn't look into ele rotation.

 

So a facerolling ele can still do more dmg than a almost perfectly played necro?

Or a good played ele with full defensive utility skills does still more dmg and is more tankier than necro?

 

That's real shitbalance.

 

We could also say: KC is always dominated by weavers, that's a balance issue as well.

 

I'm ok with ele being top DPS on big hitbox. But then it should be at the lower end of the table for small hitbox, so that you still can play it, but it's way worse than all other classes.

 

 

Oh and don't tell me that necro is more tanky than ele.

 

Most boss things in raids do percentage dmg. So extra health doesn't matter.

And if you facetanking boss autos will down the necro as fast as an ele.

 

And even if ele had more hp that would change nothing.

Almost all players I know are pressing f when someone goes down. But most of the ele players don't do that.

They go for full dmg and then blame the necro player for the lack of dmg, if the boss encounter fails.

But they didn't see the necro player ressing 5 people. Or they did go down because they didn't want to interrupt their meteor.

 

So just shut the f... Up.

 

A big healthbar isn't what should make the difference in dmg.

 

Then thief should do no dmg because of more evades than any other class and teleports and even a block and invisible

 

Same goes for guard: blocks, invulnerable, jumps, selfheal

 

Ele: invulnerable, teleport, insane self healing and even barrier, jumps

 

Mesmer: teleports, invuln, invisible

 

Engi: jumps, invuln, barrier,selfheal

 

Warrior: big healthbar, invulnerable, jumps, selfheal

 

Rev: invuln, jumps

 

Ranger: invuln,invisible,jumps,block, selfheal

 

Necro: barrier, big healthbar (and almost no other good defensive trait)

 

So in this regard, rev and necro should be top DPS, because they have the lowest defenses.

 

See. That's not an argument.

 

 

 

[steki.1478]

> @"Nimon.7840" said:

> > @"steki.1478" said:

> > > @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said:

> > > > @"steki.1478" said:

> > > > I'm not saying any of those 2 classes are op/up, or that necro needs nerf (it needs some buffs actually), but epidemic is simply game breaking because it's such a low effort/high reward skill on a class which has enough self sustain, making it very easy to stack and abuse.

> > >

> > > Oh, I agree that Epi needs to be nerfed, but there are some ppl here that find it ok to _only_ do that, and forget about the buffs that the Necro so severely needs. The Necro is atm only useful in raids because of Epi, taking that away (again: still needs to happen, imo) will make it utterly useless in the PvE endgame (and before anyone starts: yea, they would be still viable, but that's any class between level 60 and 80 with green/yellow armor on!). And to only throw that on highly subjective reasoning like, awwwwwww this button pressing and attunement swapping is sooooooo hard, is pathetic at best! If that's really the excuse for justifying so much more DPS (because that 23% is only the _small_ hitbox advantage they have, let's not talk about the _actual_ raid boss advantage they have) .... well it doesn't it just doesn't justify anything for that matter! It's what PC gaming is all about ... pressing buttons and moving your mouse!

> > >

> > > > @"steki.1478" said:

> > > > How many times have you heard someone say to a new player "play weaver/chrono, it's the strongest dps/support for raids"?

> > > All the time!!! Why?

> > > To back it up, why in the hell would you tell a new player to play Necro, Thief, Revenant, only to be rejected in the PvE endgame by the community. You must really hate that new player, to give him/her that advice. Hell, if you really think playing Ele/Weaver is that hard, a new player has a whole story and open world to first practise its "complex" rotations, which would make its welcome into raiding and fractals even smoother! I would definitely know what to suggest!

> >

> > https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/38002/easy-dps-class-for-raid#latest

> >

> > >I'm currently raiding with a condi scourge, and I found it to be **easy to play**. I want to play another class that has great DPS and is **easy to play** well in raids.

> >

> > Why bother learning encounters on a class that requires perfect positioning and rotation when you can play something easy and mindless while doing slightly less dps for no effort? Considering that most of training guilds dont care about what you play, why make it hard when you can do it easy way?

>

> Well you need to learn encounters with all classes.

>

> Perfect positioning?> @"DutchRiders.2871" said:

> > > @"Sublimatio.6981" said:

> > > > @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said:

> > > > > @"Malediktus.9250" said:

> > > > > 23% is justified. Scourge is much easier to play so it should be less rewarding.

> > > >

> That's a joke right? I almost never play ele and without looking at the rotation I pulled out more DPS than necros benchmark.

>

> > > > I always wonder how these ppl react if ANet would flip the coin tomorrow, giving the Necro _the_ highest dps on golem with 23% difference compared to Ele, you just need "a very complex rotation" and its health bar lowered a bit ... I would not mind at all if they do that, but I bet all these Ele mains will be the very first to complain about how OP Necros are all of the sudden, and how quickly they need to be nerfed. I know: all assumptions, but there is only one way to find out ... Please ANet ... Please! It's about time the tables are turned!

> > >

> This would be awesome. Make ele players feel, what necros always feel.

>

> > > lmao i just imagined that and you are so right :)

> >

> > Scourges being top dps by these margins all while being such a safe pick is a balance issue. Regardless of whether weaver is to strong.

> >

> > Most of the CMs are cheesed by scourges.

>

> Lol I think u didn't understand why scourge is taken. Because of one skill: epidemic

> And not because of barrier values. Or because it's easy to play. I know only a very small group of people, that can do 90% or higher of the benchmark on necro. But I do know a lot more people, that can do more dmg with ele than with necro, even doe they didn't look into ele rotation.

>

> So a facerolling ele can still do more dmg than a almost perfectly played necro?

> Or a good played ele with full defensive utility skills does still more dmg and is more tankier than necro?

>

> That's real shitbalance.

>

> We could also say: KC is always dominated by weavers, that's a balance issue as well.

>

> I'm ok with ele being top DPS on big hitbox. But then it should be at the lower end of the table for small hitbox, so that you still can play it, but it's way worse than all other classes.

>

>

> Oh and don't tell me that necro is more tanky than ele.

>

> Most boss things in raids do percentage dmg. So extra health doesn't matter.

> And if you facetanking boss autos will down the necro as fast as an ele.

>

> And even if ele had more hp that would change nothing.

> Almost all players I know are pressing f when someone goes down. But most of the ele players don't do that.

> They go for full dmg and then blame the necro player for the lack of dmg, if the boss encounter fails.

> But they didn't see the necro player ressing 5 people. Or they did go down because they didn't want to interrupt their meteor.

>

> So just shut the f... Up.

>

> A big healthbar isn't what should make the difference in dmg.

>

> Then thief should do no dmg because of more evades than any other class and teleports and even a block and invisible

>

> Same goes for guard: blocks, invulnerable, jumps, selfheal

>

> Ele: invulnerable, teleport, insane self healing and even barrier, jumps

>

> Mesmer: teleports, invuln, invisible

>

> Engi: jumps, invuln, barrier,selfheal

>

> Warrior: big healthbar, invulnerable, jumps, selfheal

>

> Rev: invuln, jumps

>

> Ranger: invuln,invisible,jumps,block, selfheal

>

> Necro: barrier, big healthbar (and almost no other good defensive trait)

>

> So in this regard, rev and necro should be top DPS, because they have the lowest defenses.

>

> See. That's not an argument.

>

>

>

 

That's a shitty argument because only thief and mirage are using their defense (dodges) to do damage, while almost all other builds use pure offense.

 

And yes, scourge is taken only for epidemic which was the point of this thread. Not weavers or other classes. If epi was removed, or 25 stack condi majorly reduced, necro could be properly balanced (buffed to compensate). That's not possible with current epidemic.

[Sublimatio.6981]

> @"steki.1478" said:

 

>

> That's a kitten argument because only thief and mirage are using their defense (dodges) to do damage, while almost all other builds use pure offense.

>

> And yes, scourge is taken only for epidemic which was the point of this thread. Not weavers or other classes. If epi was removed, or 25 stack condi majorly reduced, necro could be properly balanced (buffed to compensate). That's not possible with current epidemic.

so how do you explain power necro? because it's not taking advantage of epidemic as it is and never was.

 

[Deadvillager.1956]

Gotta love these epi discussions. Necro has one way to actually be BiS for like 10% of all raid encounters? Inacceptible. Know your place. IF epi gets nerfed, necro needs at least 50% of that lost damage potential added to its base kit. Is that better? And no, rotation difficulty does not matter, condi engi and DH prove that.

[steki.1478]

> @"Sublimatio.6981" said:

> > @"steki.1478" said:

>

> >

> > That's a kitten argument because only thief and mirage are using their defense (dodges) to do damage, while almost all other builds use pure offense.

> >

> > And yes, scourge is taken only for epidemic which was the point of this thread. Not weavers or other classes. If epi was removed, or 25 stack condi majorly reduced, necro could be properly balanced (buffed to compensate). That's not possible with current epidemic.

> so how do you explain power necro? because it's not taking advantage of epidemic as it is and never was.

>

 

10k extra health, spamming only 1 button after 50% (or so I've heard) big cc potential. It's the class with highest self sustain, might/vuln application, max crit rate for solo play. It simply doesnt scale into group content, which seems pretty balanced to me. Weaver for example has barely of those in solo play, but it has highest potential when buffed by allies.

 

Not every build has to be acceptable everywhere, but every class should have a viable build for every content. Which is the case currently.

[Nimon.7840]

> @"steki.1478" said:

> > @"Sublimatio.6981" said:

> > > @"steki.1478" said:

> >

> > >

> > > That's a kitten argument because only thief and mirage are using their defense (dodges) to do damage, while almost all other builds use pure offense.

> > >

 

 

Err no? U rlly didn't get the point of my post. Reread play.

 

> > > And yes, scourge is taken only for epidemic which was the point of this thread. Not weavers or other classes. If epi was removed, or 25 stack condi majorly reduced, necro could be properly balanced (buffed to compensate). That's not possible with current epidemic.

> > so how do you explain power necro? because it's not taking advantage of epidemic as it is and never was.

> >

>

> 10k extra health, spamming only 1 button after 50% (or so I've heard) big cc potential. It's the class with highest self sustain, might/vuln application, max crit rate for solo play. It simply doesnt scale into group content, which seems pretty balanced to me. Weaver for example has barely of those in solo play, but it has highest potential when buffed by allies.

 

 

 

Highest self sustain? Please gimme that build. I wanna use it in PvP.

 

Do you even know anything bout the game?

Ever watched a weaver roaming video?

Ever played reaper these days?

 

U notice that it's an mmo not a soloplayer offline game?

 

 

>

> Not every build has to be acceptable everywhere, but every class should have a viable build for every content. Which is the case currently.

 

And you want to take away epi so necro doesn't have a viable build for pve engame anymore? It's pretty rare that you getting a full necro squad in raids. Way easier to stack Eles.

 

 

Sorry. But it seems to me, that you are just one of these guys, that don't know what their class is capable of because they never used their own build and only copy from metabattle.

 

Sure remove epi. Then remove meteor shower as well. Or per cast enemies can only be hit by one meteor. That would be balance as well.

 

See you are way off from reality.

 

I rlly hope that ele players have to experience, what necro players had to experience. And not just for 2 months. Maybe 1 year where ele is out of meta and only gets taken in premade groups because the others know, that u are a good player.

 

Then we might talk again

[Magnus Godrik.5841]

you know, not every1 knows how to epibounce correctly. go do dhumm cm with a bunch of necro pugs and tell me how long before you got the kill. or better yet delete ele staff.

[Malediktus.9250]

> @"Magnus Godrik.5841" said:

> you know, not every1 knows how to epibounce correctly. go do dhumm cm with a bunch of necro pugs and tell me how long before you got the kill. or better yet delete ele staff.

PvP gets balanced for the 100th percentile people, so why should it be different for PvE? If they fail something as simple as using one skill it is their own fault

[steki.1478]

> @"Nimon.7840" said:

> > @"steki.1478" said:

> > > @"Sublimatio.6981" said:

> > > > @"steki.1478" said:

> > >

> > > >

> > > > That's a kitten argument because only thief and mirage are using their defense (dodges) to do damage, while almost all other builds use pure offense.

> > > >

>

>

> Err no? U rlly didn't get the point of my post. Reread play.

>

> > > > And yes, scourge is taken only for epidemic which was the point of this thread. Not weavers or other classes. If epi was removed, or 25 stack condi majorly reduced, necro could be properly balanced (buffed to compensate). That's not possible with current epidemic.

> > > so how do you explain power necro? because it's not taking advantage of epidemic as it is and never was.

> > >

> >

> > 10k extra health, spamming only 1 button after 50% (or so I've heard) big cc potential. It's the class with highest self sustain, might/vuln application, max crit rate for solo play. It simply doesnt scale into group content, which seems pretty balanced to me. Weaver for example has barely of those in solo play, but it has highest potential when buffed by allies.

>

>

>

> Highest self sustain? Please gimme that build. I wanna use it in PvP.

>

> Do you even know anything bout the game?

> Ever watched a weaver roaming video?

> Ever played reaper these days?

>

> U notice that it's an mmo not a soloplayer offline game?

>

>

> >

> > Not every build has to be acceptable everywhere, but every class should have a viable build for every content. Which is the case currently.

>

> And you want to take away epi so necro doesn't have a viable build for pve engame anymore? It's pretty rare that you getting a full necro squad in raids. Way easier to stack Eles.

>

>

> Sorry. But it seems to me, that you are just one of these guys, that don't know what their class is capable of because they never used their own build and only copy from metabattle.

>

> Sure remove epi. Then remove meteor shower as well. Or per cast enemies can only be hit by one meteor. That would be balance as well.

>

> See you are way off from reality.

>

> I rlly hope that ele players have to experience, what necro players had to experience. And not just for 2 months. Maybe 1 year where ele is out of meta and only gets taken in premade groups because the others know, that u are a good player.

>

> Then we might talk again

 

Pvp was never topic of this thread. Neither was power necro. It was epi and its balance. Epi isnt used in none of those builds. So pay attention when yoh defend something only because you play same class in some completely different content. But since we're on it anyways, how much damage does that weaver build do? How much might does it have? How much stats does it waste on defense? Yes I'm aware of other builds, but none of them have any connections with this post.

 

There was a period where tempest was only useful for gorse/kc/sloth and overscaled by ranger/engi and half of other classes on nearly everything else including fractals. And I agree that it was a lot more balances than now, but that's not part of this topic and that elite spec/build had potential of cleansing condies, small aoe healing, cc, aoe stun breaking (rebound was only used by plebs, but it was still effective in such groups). All with a minor dps loss (fresh air build at least). Weaver cant do any of that. Scourge does everything except stun breaking (heal->barrier).

 

 

> @"Magnus Godrik.5841" said:

> you know, not every1 knows how to epibounce correctly. go do dhumm cm with a bunch of necro pugs and tell me how long before you got the kill. or better yet delete ele staff.

 

And not everyone can outdps dps classes as warrior, not every weaver does 30k dps, not every druid knows how to outheal VG, not every chrono stacks perma quick/alacrity etc etc. What's your point?

[Sublimatio.6981]

> @"steki.1478" said:

> > @"Sublimatio.6981" said:

> > > @"steki.1478" said:

> >

> > >

> > > That's a kitten argument because only thief and mirage are using their defense (dodges) to do damage, while almost all other builds use pure offense.

> > >

> > > And yes, scourge is taken only for epidemic which was the point of this thread. Not weavers or other classes. If epi was removed, or 25 stack condi majorly reduced, necro could be properly balanced (buffed to compensate). That's not possible with current epidemic.

> > so how do you explain power necro? because it's not taking advantage of epidemic as it is and never was.

> >

>

> 10k extra health, spamming only 1 button after 50% (or so I've heard) big cc potential. It's the class with highest self sustain, might/vuln application, max crit rate for solo play. It simply doesnt scale into group content, which seems pretty balanced to me. Weaver for example has barely of those in solo play, but it has highest potential when buffed by allies.

>

> Not every build has to be acceptable everywhere, but every class should have a viable build for every content. Which is the case currently.

 

did you ever solo anything? because im predominantly lowman pve player and i know the difference. if you want to solo something you gear for it and use dumplings. it's called self-buffing and any class can do it.

and no, reaper has the worst survivability especially in the aspect you mentioned - soloing. try soloing lupicus for example - you have to take rise, CPC (self weakness) and other minions and hope for aggro to be taken from you. eles and other classes simply have bonus evades, invulns, blocks that they can select for particular challenge. (on top of superior dps)

 

~125hp from lifesteals per half a second doesn't mean shit as sustain if im hit for 10k dmg or 30k by single attack.

 

and reaper dps is so bad that even when you compare solos, your so called superior self-buffing of reaper doesn't mean anything if any weaver will do more damage without even trying to self-buff.

 

also, below 50% you don't just spam gravedigger, that's what you see on golem videos but often you have to interrupt it to do other important things like cc, chill, dodge or when mob walks away and you get cooldown. that being said, explain daredevil or mirage rotations being so simple and yet it's all good.

 

and it's not 10k more hp, it's 7.5 and warrior has the same health pool, better armor type, great dps, tons of active defense integrated even in the meta build. so maybe you should stop embarassing yourself by your ignorance and saying it's fair balance.

 

 

[Ceit.7619]

One thing that I keep seeing come up and find hilarious is ele's complaining about complicated rotations. You guys need a perspective switch. You guys have SO MANY AWESOME DAMAGE SKILLS that you need to do a lot just so you can hit them all and are complaining about a class that has ONE AWESOME DAMAGE SKILL that for 4 fights, is higher dps than ele, but not as much higher as ele is compared to necro everywhere else. Are you guys being serious right now?

[Agrippa Oculus.3726]

> @"Ceit.7619" said:

> One thing that I keep seeing come up and find hilarious is ele's complaining about complicated rotations. You guys need a perspective switch. You guys have SO MANY AWESOME DAMAGE SKILLS that you need to do a lot just so you can hit them all and are complaining about a class that has ONE AWESOME DAMAGE SKILL that for 4 fights, is higher dps than ele, but not as much higher as ele is compared to necro everywhere else. Are you guys being serious right now?

 

This (don't get me wrong, still want Epi to be nerfed, though ... in combination with huge buffs to anything else Necro related), but what strikes me the most is that most of these Ele mains talk about other classes while they clearly have never (properly) played them before. And I understand as well, you don't _have_ to "read" into other classes, cause you're already needed everywhere anyway! Have you ever heard of a Raid PUG saying: we don't want Ele's cause they have "complex rotations"???

Most Necro mains on the other hand, they _have_ tried other classes, mainly because they're simply not wanted in the PvE endgame as a Necro.

 

To some Ele fanatics out there: it's really easy to spit down from your Ivory tower, show some empathy please! Don't worry, ANet will not nerf your awesome Top 1 damage, they've NEVER done it before, so why would they start now. But a little bit more leniency to the other classes is appreciated. Thanks.

[steki.1478]

> @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said:

> > @"Ceit.7619" said:

> > One thing that I keep seeing come up and find hilarious is ele's complaining about complicated rotations. You guys need a perspective switch. You guys have SO MANY AWESOME DAMAGE SKILLS that you need to do a lot just so you can hit them all and are complaining about a class that has ONE AWESOME DAMAGE SKILL that for 4 fights, is higher dps than ele, but not as much higher as ele is compared to necro everywhere else. Are you guys being serious right now?

>

> This (don't get me wrong, still want Epi to be nerfed, though ... in combination with huge buffs to anything else Necro related), but what strikes me the most is that most of these Ele mains talk about other classes while they clearly have never (properly) played them before. And I understand as well, you don't _have_ to "read" into other classes, cause you're already needed everywhere anyway! Have you ever heard of a Raid PUG saying: we don't want Ele's cause they have "complex rotations"???

> Most Necro mains on the other hand, they _have_ tried other classes, mainly because they're simply not wanted in the PvE endgame as a Necro.

>

> To some Ele fanatics out there: it's really easy to spit down from your Ivory tower, show some empathy please! Don't worry, ANet will not nerf your awesome Top 1 damage, they've NEVER done it before, so why would they start now. But a little bit more leniency to the other classes is appreciated. Thanks.

 

Exactly one year ago (and a bit more), staff tempest was only useful on big hitboxes. You could play it on small ones, but you could also play class with 3k higher benchmark. I played mesmer and engi on such bosses. Mesmer was carried by spamming few buttons of cd and afk, engi had actually fun gameplay. Gw2 is very alt friendly; besides supports there's no class that's optimal on every single boss, so swapping classes for certain bosses is a standard procedure, in any meta. I understand that scourge is completely unviable or useless on every single boss, but it's just case with big hitboxes, not every boss like you make it look like. Power reaper is a different story, just like LB ranger, it has slow skills that spike hard without high sustained damage, so there's no place for them in prolonged fights. Condi reaper is just too gimmick with ice fields, no idea why anet keeps it that way for so long.

 

PUGs' performance is random, no matter what class they play. They choose to require ele (top dmg on static golem kek) because they've never played it despite most of pugs failing miserably on those. But nothing stops you for putting your own group on lfg without class requirements. You just say "lf dps", people join on their mains, they fail a lot less, run is smooth, problem solved. And this doesn't have to be ele, I've seen people failing to dps as 3xSB, and people constantly have low dps on warrs. Bosses still die, no?

 

And when it comes to complexity, scourge's main problem is maintaining shades in long fights (non existant since almost all bosses phase quite often, alternatively you can use expertise infusions) and casting punishments before F1 (so not a complete button smash, my bad). None of those are an issue if you're bouncing epidemic though, since epi doesn't scale with expertise (correct me if I'm wrong) and 1 burn stack is nothing compared to 25. Not saying it's the easiest, but it's braindead just like dd, mirage and 3xsb.

 

I honestly dont see how other classes are factor of nerfing epidemic when it was always the biggest issue of necro balance.

[Nimon.7840]

> @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said:

> > @"Ceit.7619" said:

> > One thing that I keep seeing come up and find hilarious is ele's complaining about complicated rotations. You guys need a perspective switch. You guys have SO MANY AWESOME DAMAGE SKILLS that you need to do a lot just so you can hit them all and are complaining about a class that has ONE AWESOME DAMAGE SKILL that for 4 fights, is higher dps than ele, but not as much higher as ele is compared to necro everywhere else. Are you guys being serious right now?

>

 

Exactly on point. Any ele player, did u ever play condi reaper. U have a pretty strict rotation as well, that has to keep almost all skills on cd to do 30k DPS.

Ele puts down lava font + the fire/earth thing, autoattacks and does almost similar DPS. And u try to tell me that it rotation is komplex? U have to use like F1,f4,1,2,3

To do more dmg than someone who needs to use

1,2,3,4,5,F1 and all utility skills other than healskill?

 

 

> This (don't get me wrong, still want Epi to be nerfed, though ... in combination with huge buffs to anything else Necro related), but what strikes me the most is that most of these Ele mains talk about other classes while they clearly have never (properly) played them before.

 

 

Most of those people even never ever played their own builds, tried to get high dmg numbers without looking at Qt or sc or whatsoever raid guild.

Most of them just copy from metabattle and then try to tell people, that ele doesn't have survivability or dmg mitigation or that they can't do anything solo.

 

As a ele u can easily play those oneshot builds even in normal pve. Sure. U cannot oneshot champs.

But u can do high pressure.

 

Example:

U want to kill a normal mob as ele. U take a scepter and almost oneshot it. Now you have some options:

Kite for a little while and burst again after 4seconds so mob is dead, or use those evade abilities or blocks or teleport to get away safely.

Now necro single mob. Needs to take full offensive utility skills to kill that mob. So he doesn't have a teleport. U put conditions on the enemy, and since it takes a little time, the enemy will reach u and hit you.

 

Let's assume we don't use our regular dodges.

Necro has to take those hits with his face while having only pretty bad self healing.

Ele still has enough dmg prevention to not take the dmg from the mob.

So these 8k(10k traited) more health just mean nothing. And after those 10k are gone, u are even worse than ele, because you have less dmg and less survivability.

 

So the difference in DPS is pretty stupid.

 

Next up. A group of enemies:

Ele casts meteor and then all his other are abilities. Easy kills, easy life. While blocking enemies path with icefields, crippels and other stuff.

Necro uses his things to build up condistacks. And uses epi. Oh wait. The condis on the target of epi killed its target while the projectiles were midair?: Result: 40 dmg to 5 mobs, all don't get the condis from the first target and u have to face against those 5 because u pulled them but u don't have a good dmg spell left.

Ok. That's maybe the worst case scenario. But this can happen pretty easily.

 

And for raids its the same. In pugs epibounces almost never work, because there are a lot of bad necros out there. They know their rotation and do ok dmg. But when they are not in TS or discord, most of them are too bad for epibounces because they are too slow and the enemy to renounce will die while casting epi on it or while epi-projectile is midair. Which will lead to a dmg loss cause epi has some casttime and will only do a very small amount of dmg and will actually be a DPS loss.

 

 

 

>And I understand as well, you don't _have_ to "read" into other classes, cause you're already needed everywhere anyway! Have you ever heard of a Raid PUG saying: we don't want Ele's cause they have "complex rotations"???

> Most Necro mains on the other hand, they _have_ tried other classes, mainly because they're simply not wanted in the PvE endgame as a Necro.

>

> To some Ele fanatics out there: it's really easy to spit down from your Ivory tower, show some empathy please! Don't worry, ANet will not nerf your awesome Top 1 damage, they've NEVER done it before, so why would they start now. But a little bit more leniency to the other classes is appreciated. Thanks.

 

Guess they are just worried to get the same treatment necro always got from the community.

 

[Agrippa Oculus.3726]

> @"steki.1478" said:

> > @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said:

> > > @"Ceit.7619" said:

> > > One thing that I keep seeing come up and find hilarious is ele's complaining about complicated rotations. You guys need a perspective switch. You guys have SO MANY AWESOME DAMAGE SKILLS that you need to do a lot just so you can hit them all and are complaining about a class that has ONE AWESOME DAMAGE SKILL that for 4 fights, is higher dps than ele, but not as much higher as ele is compared to necro everywhere else. Are you guys being serious right now?

> >

> > This (don't get me wrong, still want Epi to be nerfed, though ... in combination with huge buffs to anything else Necro related), but what strikes me the most is that most of these Ele mains talk about other classes while they clearly have never (properly) played them before. And I understand as well, you don't _have_ to "read" into other classes, cause you're already needed everywhere anyway! Have you ever heard of a Raid PUG saying: we don't want Ele's cause they have "complex rotations"???

> > Most Necro mains on the other hand, they _have_ tried other classes, mainly because they're simply not wanted in the PvE endgame as a Necro.

> >

> > To some Ele fanatics out there: it's really easy to spit down from your Ivory tower, show some empathy please! Don't worry, ANet will not nerf your awesome Top 1 damage, they've NEVER done it before, so why would they start now. But a little bit more leniency to the other classes is appreciated. Thanks.

>

> Exactly one year ago (and a bit more), staff tempest was only useful on big hitboxes.

And what are most Raid bosses? Exactly: big Hitboxes (bigger than small, at least). So they were still number 1 .... As always! Never really changed, except for maybe a few weeks, but it was obviously a bug then (Scourge after PoF release being an example at that).

 

> @"steki.1478" said:

> And when it comes to complexity, scourge's main problem is maintaining shades in long fights (non existant since almost all bosses phase quite often, alternatively you can use expertise infusions) and casting punishments before F1 (so not a complete button smash, my bad).

And plague sending optimization after BiP; Shade count 'sweet spot' management: _when_ to have 2 or 3 up (bursting when 3); Life Force management: F5 needs to be _able_ to be pressed on CD, but you also want as many other shade skills in as long as your Life Force permits; to name a few (and completely ignoring Epi mechanics here).

Almost all classes have their try hard min-maxing rotations, as far as I know (please correct me if I'm wrong), and I wouldn't be surprised if you can _all_ make them as complex as you want! The only real difference lies in the results 'on paper' (DPS, etc.): and they differ hugely!