More Condi in WvW

[Korgov.7645]

> @mulzi.8273 said:

> > @ilMasa.2546 said:

> > See...the problem ,once again, is called **balance**.

> > I do understand the attempt to make condi builds a viable choice for a specific portion of the game (the so called "end game"),prior to this power builds were considered the standard and some variety was needed.

> > So while these changes brought fresh air,fun and variety in the pve enviroment,at the same time those changes killed the very variety in WvW.

>

> It also killed the variety in all other aspects of the game. Look at the raid metas. 95% of them are condi based.

>

>

Never look at PvE for balancing WvW.

[Sethanon Stormrage.6721]

> @Korgov.7645 said:

> > @mulzi.8273 said:

> > > @ilMasa.2546 said:

> > > See...the problem ,once again, is called **balance**.

> > > I do understand the attempt to make condi builds a viable choice for a specific portion of the game (the so called "end game"),prior to this power builds were considered the standard and some variety was needed.

> > > So while these changes brought fresh air,fun and variety in the pve enviroment,at the same time those changes killed the very variety in WvW.

> >

> > It also killed the variety in all other aspects of the game. Look at the raid metas. 95% of them are condi based.

> >

> >

> Never look at PvE for balancing WvW.

 

Tell that to Anet

[Shining One.1635]

> @"Sethanon Stormrage.6721" said:

> I've just taken down the inner wall of bay. I want to push in with my group but the choke is filled with aoe and boon strips. The enemy blob just standing there spamming the choke.

>

> Pre boon hate i could push that with cleanses. Now with boon hate. It's constant cc and Condi spam. Can't pop stab nor resistance.

>

> What would you do there? Go on.. educate me.

We ran into a similar situation within the last week. We ended up taking down the adjacent walls and the gate too. It left too much space for the enemy zerg to cover, so we got in and took the keep.

[Sethanon Stormrage.6721]

> @"Shining One.1635" said:

> > @"Sethanon Stormrage.6721" said:

> > I've just taken down the inner wall of bay. I want to push in with my group but the choke is filled with aoe and boon strips. The enemy blob just standing there spamming the choke.

> >

> > Pre boon hate i could push that with cleanses. Now with boon hate. It's constant cc and Condi spam. Can't pop stab nor resistance.

> >

> > What would you do there? Go on.. educate me.

> We ran into a similar situation within the last week. We ended up taking down the adjacent walls and the gate too. It left too much space for the enemy zerg to cover, so we got in and took the keep.

 

The area in front of the lords room can be covered by 3 bubbles. I'd say you capping is more down to your enemies incompetence than the fact you took down extra walls and a gate.

 

That and taking down extra walls and a gate in a fully upgraded by is a long draw out siege. Can be just as boring as pirate shipping

[Aeolus.3615]

welll mty DH shoutbuild condi cleanse cant compete with the current spam.. guess i need to leave the game...since l2adapt means buy new vertical progressions gimmick....

 

even DH f2 and DH f3 now are always interrupted with the caster having stability >_>.....

[Vardy.3592]

I have to agree that it's the number of conditions causing the issue. Next to impossible to clear them all and easily re-applied.

 

They need to simplify the conditions greatly. Looking on the Wiki, there are fourteen different conditions. My current cancer necro can output eight of them very quickly.

 

For me, there should be three different types of condition:

* Damage causing

* Movement impairing

* Skill impairing

 

The same can also be said about boons too. Just the opposite of the above.

[Lawrencii.1356]

Where is the option for **more** condi? =)

[Bigpapasmurf.5623]

With all the complaints, wonder if it would help to re-look at the condi caps per source (max 15-20 stacks per player kind of thing).

[kathy.8291]

pLEASE PLEASE nerf condi already like Anet nerfs all the other classes. PvP and WvW are NOT THE SAME so dont treat Condi like its the same

[CrimsonNeonite.1048]

This is why they should really split WvW balance, from every other game mode.

I don't know if they'll even balance Scourge or Spellbreaker, for the sake of WvW anytime soon, because this is just as bad when they changed stability for the worse, just before HoT. This just promotes for Pirate ship, just to avoid getting facerolled by dozens of Boon removal, Condis and AOE melting you, in terms of zerging.

 

This new expac, added much more AOE effect Clutter aswell.

[miriforst.1290]

Reduce stacks and increase duration by a similar factor. This way "but muh raid dps" isn't affected and might actually increase variety (depending on the phases on the bosses and importance of burst).

 

Meanwhile in pvp conditions wont be as bursty and can go back to being low/medium damage ramping up slowly instead of 5k+ damage/sec.

 

Then we reduce the uptime of resistance and spread it out a little. If i play a class without boon removal (not mesmer/necro) and i come across a spellbreaker i might as well start checking if any of my rares have sold on the trading post while i wait for him to kill me. And there are only a few professions with good enough access. It seemed like they wanted you to use resistance to buy yourself enough time to clear the massive condition stacks without dying but then it needs to be viable for everyone in the same way that everyone got a heal skill. Its not good to have a whole zerg resistance sharing so make it mostly personal with aoe application only on long cooldown/situational skills.

 

I remember when the strength of the condition engineer was its large amount of cover conditions covering a single stack of burn. Now everyone got equal or even worse condition application with burn stacking in intensity not to mention the covers themselves not really being "covers" anymore but hard hitting in their own right. We need more specific condition removal skills implemented which may have a shorter cooldown than the full clears. And the same goes for boon removal (skills specifically removing protection or stability for example).

 

Finally we make some "purity of purpose" by reducing the amount of cleansing traits and limiting the amounts of instant cleanses, especially aoe. Cleansing should be an action you do thoughtfully, not by accidentally proccing a clear while bursting someone down or similar. We need to find a balance between the situation where everyone is essentially immune to conditions while not even thinking about it and the situation where doing nothing but spamming condition clears only makes you a sitting duck for more conditions.

 

One or more of the above suggestions might help restore balance to the force, if only a little.

[kathy.8291]

> @CrimsonNeonite.1048 said:

> This is why they should really split WvW balance, from every other game mode.

> I don't know if they'll even balance Scourge or Spellbreaker, for the sake of WvW anytime soon, because this is just as bad when they changed stability for the worse, just before HoT. This just promotes for Pirate ship, just to avoid getting facerolled by dozens of Boon removal, Condis and AOE melting you, in terms of zerging.

>

> This new expac, added much more AOE effect Clutter aswell.

 

Agreed,, game mode should be split but unfortunately it is not. Just beccause it works in PvP doesn't mean it will work in WvW.

[Sethanon Stormrage.6721]

> @kathy.8291 said:

> > @CrimsonNeonite.1048 said:

> > This is why they should really split WvW balance, from every other game mode.

> > I don't know if they'll even balance Scourge or Spellbreaker, for the sake of WvW anytime soon, because this is just as bad when they changed stability for the worse, just before HoT. This just promotes for Pirate ship, just to avoid getting facerolled by dozens of Boon removal, Condis and AOE melting you, in terms of zerging.

> >

> > This new expac, added much more AOE effect Clutter aswell.

>

> Agreed,, game mode should be split but unfortunately it is not. Just beccause it works in PvP doesn't mean it will work in WvW.

 

PvE* WvW is linked to pve not PvP. Hell it would be a lot better if it was linked to PvP instead.

But it should be it's own game mode. I just don't think Anet care about it enough to do that

[Kidel.2057]

Again, the problem is not condi power, but condi variance. When a class can output 5 different conditions, there is no option for cleanses. Every class should just output 1 condition, 2 at best. Scourge is currently a problem because it can spam all the conditions (except confusion) with no effort at all.

[Swagg.9236]

The problem with condi is that it doesn't do anything that power already does. Since they both just do untyped damage, one of them is going to be better than the other without granting any purpose to the one in "second place." It creates a paradigm run by anet's arbitrary balance: if condi has bigger numbers, power has no purpose and vice versa. Everybody complained about the "zerk meta" being bad for the game, but once condi was broken with a combination of 2013-14 PvP condi-powercreep and then the PvE condition stack patch, we ended up with the exact same paradigm as the "zerk meta" except for conditions (and it's even worse than the zerk meta because at least it was very easy to gear for the zerk meta).

 

As it stands, conditions have 0 purpose except to apply damage. I've often heard the argument that condi also provides "Soft CC," but Soft CC pales in comparison to Hard CC when it comes to end-game PvE break bar situations, and Soft CC is often outright ignored in PvP with all the cleanses, invulnerability and resistance that players pass around and generate on demand nowadays. Soft CC is a joke argument, and Soft CC won't save conditions from a purposeless existence if their damage is brought back down from beyond the brink of insanity.

 

If we want to kill condicancer without removing condi's purpose from the game, then conditions just need a unique purpose separate from direct (power) damage (something that they should have had from launch). They'd be much better off as a sort of "battery" for power specs. Giving everyone and their grandmother Vulnerability, for instance, was a huge mistake. If Power inflicted 0 conditions and conditions were re-worked in such a way that maybe stacking burning could eventually turn into vulnerability (sort of like a "melted" status), we could see the emergence of condition specs as the most critical means of boosting a party's damage. The other conditions could be reworked in a similar manner.

 

**tl;dr: Conditions need a function that isn't damage if we are going to remove them from the damage-dealing role. It might be best if they were changed into a damage booster role, and confined to only a few classes/specs which could only inflict 1-2 conditions respectively.**

[Jana.6831]

> @Swagg.9236 said:

> Everybody complained about the "zerk meta" being bad for the game,

That was PvE - I was a noob back then so I don't really have an idea how everybody was geared, but I ran around as a soldier's thief and it worked just fine. Only some D/D signet thieves were zerker, those who ran with the zerg actually had some toughness stats. PvE complained that they were required to run zerker in Dungeons, that's why anet introduced ferocity (April 15th 2014) - they forgot about condi and people in WvW started to run around with zerker as otherwise you wouldn't do enough damage. I know of quite a few people who ran as full zerkers with ther zerg. No idea about their exact builds though as I became a solo roamer and my opponents were either full zerker or dire. Because anet forgot about condi and didn't balance it = it became OP in comparison to power. Still it was the most fun time I've had and skill still mattered. Just that tanky stats were kind of obsolete.

 

 

>but once condi was broken with a combination of 2013-14 PvP condi-powercreep and then the PvE condition stack patch, we ended up with the exact same paradigm as the "zerk meta" except for conditions (and it's even worse than the zerk meta because at least it was very easy to gear for the zerk meta).

They actually recalculated the damage condis do with the June 2015th patch, but you're right. Just that it didn't go 'on top of the already there conditions' as their damage was altered. The rest is true though.

 

 

> As it stands, conditions have 0 purpose except to apply damage. I've often heard the argument that condi also provides "Soft CC," but Soft CC pales in comparison to Hard CC when it comes to end-game PvE break bar situations, and Soft CC is often outright ignored in PvP with all the cleanses, invulnerability and resistance that players pass around and generate on demand nowadays. Soft CC is a joke argument, and Soft CC won't save conditions from a purposeless existence if their damage is brought back down from beyond the brink of insanity.

True. It's just a clusterkitten of all kinds of effects.

 

> If we want to kill condicancer without removing condi's purpose from the game, then conditions just need a unique purpose separate from direct (power) damage (something that they should have had from launch). They'd be much better off as a sort of "battery" for power specs. Giving everyone and their grandmother Vulnerability, for instance, was a huge mistake. If Power inflicted 0 conditions and conditions were re-worked in such a way that maybe stacking burning could eventually turn into vulnerability (sort of like a "melted" status), we could see the emergence of condition specs as the most critical means of boosting a party's damage. The other conditions could be reworked in a similar manner.

I agree, the access to all kinds of conditions is way too easy for some classes.

 

> **tl;dr: Conditions need a function that isn't damage if we are going to remove them from the damage-dealing role. It might be best if they were changed into a damage booster role, and confined to only a few classes/specs which could only inflict 1-2 conditions respectively.**

If you make them only damage, then condi would just be another power damage, wouldn't it? Or would the trick be that it deals damage over time?

Maybe go the opposite direction (again) and make them tools and reduce their damage - that would be smarter (if not every class can basically disk out the same conditions)

I'd guess a condi player could answer that better, but unfortunately no condi player admits that there is a problem with condis.

 

[Swagg.9236]

> If you make them only damage, then condi would just be another power damage, wouldn't it? Or would the trick be that it deals damage over time?

> Maybe go the opposite direction (again) and make them tools and reduce their damage - that would be smarter (if not every class can basically disk out the same conditions)

> I'd guess a condi player could answer that better, but unfortunately no condi player admits that there is a problem with condis.

 

I'm playing a Scourge right now because I like how my Necromancer character looks, and because Scourge is meta now. There is a huge problem with conditions, and it's because of a continuity of arbitrary powercreep that has been going on since 2013.

 

The trick to "fixing" them was basically to remove conditions' ability to deal high damage and replace it with a sort of "debuff" functionality which would allow direct damage (power) builds to deal even more damage (i.e. a "damage battery"). Conditions could still deal damage over time, but it would have to be "over time," not spike damage; the damage would have to be drastically reduced and then normalized. My original idea was:

 

* Condition A would stack in intensity, not necessarily in order to increase outgoing damage, but to build to a threshold beyond which it would begin generating stacks of Condition B. In the case I gave in the last post: Burning stacks would eventually start applying Vulnerability stacks.

 

Other conditions could receive similar treatment. Doing all of that would not only reduce condition spam across the entire game (alleviating the PvP situation), but it would give Conditions a unique role within PvE parties (as well as PvP ones if balanced properly).

[Jana.6831]

Ok, so if I got you right: Condi build has in theory 2 conditions, one vulnerability, one burning. The burning damage does damage regardless, but the vulnerability would need at least x stacks to even have an effect. Don't you think that it's very hard to make cleanses vs stacking conditions fair? Or even: Condi applies 5 stacks of burning which deal damage, also hits which als deals damage, the vulnerability is at 2 stacks (starts to have effect at 5), power decides to cleanse but can only take the burning away, condi applies vulnerability and burn again and power is dead.

Yes, it would take away some of the condi spam and that is an interesting idea how to play, but I still think making a max cap, reducing the number of stacks classes can have and/or reducing the overall damage conditions dish out would be easier.

Just take away 1 billion HP off tequatl so that pve players don't complain and call it a day.

 

ETA: Come to think of it - that's already the case with thief poison/choking gas. You stun if you hit a target that has x (5? forgot) stacks of poison. Barely ever happend to me although I was spamming choking gas in zerg/blobfights. Had to be nerfed for PvP though because thieves were hindering people to heal themselves or something. So your idea might be rather wonky after all - especially small scale/zerg/blob. I know it's hard to balance blobs - but as you can see: my choking gas had no effect in blobfights while it had to be nerfed for small scale.

[kathy.8291]

nerf nerf nerf, Im noticing WvW is at the point where it is almost dead if not dead to some servers already. New players cant even play in WvW let alone having a blob come after you with 1 CONDI bomb. Forget roaming.

[Reaper Alim.4176]

> @kathy.8291 said:

> nerf nerf nerf, Im noticing WvW is at the point where it is almost dead if not dead to some servers already. New players cant even play in WvW let alone having a blob come after you with 1 CONDI bomb. Forget roaming.

 

Nah you just have to put on some dire and or trailblazer on either a Thief or Mesmer. And just go ham roaming and condi bombing with the best of them. That's the whole balance don't need to balance power or condi if people completely forget power builds even exists.

[Gaab.4257]

I think ppl are not saying they cannot accomodate; they are saying that this is not fun.

I tend to agree with that.

[Silverstone.4539]

Conditions are fucking obscene. This shit need fixing.

[Junkpile.7439]

double message

[Jski.6180]

I think going after condis with added effect or the need to have condiston to do there best dmg to be cut back. Bleed is a good example of a pure condi dmg that only is strong at high stacks. Things like torment has too much passive dmg due to pve balncing that makes the not moving for a sec pointless. Or things like poison who has the strongest added effect but also better scaling / base dmg then bleeding. Bleed dmg should be the bechmake for condi dmg if the condi does more then just dmg it should do less then bleeds if it has an stronger effect when you do an action or move the passive should be much less then bleed dmg.

[Junkpile.7439]

Scourge is disgusting. People did whine about reaper, but at least reaper did have to come close if he wanted to contribute. Scourge is just pure cancer. Funny how i did think that scourge is op even before i even know how f1 skill works. I played hours before somebody told be that you can throw f1 skill middle of enemy zerg and just smash buttons in range. :)