How would an easy mode raid work - VG

[Feanor.2358]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > You're heavily underplaying the cost of rebalancing all the encounters and you're heavily overrating the cost of adding a new squad type. Which is exactly the same as the existing ones, only differing in capacity. I refuse to believe you're *that* bad at estimating the amount of work either would take.

>

> Remember that they had difficulty building raid squads in the first place, even though they are just "squads with different capacities." I doubt it's effortless.

 

Nothing is effortless. **But**, since that particular path has been walked once, the second time will be much easier. And we're still talking about a single, one-time change versus rebalancing **all** the encounters. Just this is far, **FAR** more work. And it scales into the future, creating an extra workload for each and every raid to be released.

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > You're heavily underplaying the cost of rebalancing all the encounters and you're heavily overrating the cost of adding a new squad type. Which is exactly the same as the existing ones, only differing in capacity. I refuse to believe you're *that* bad at estimating the amount of work either would take.

> >

> > Remember that they had difficulty building raid squads in the first place, even though they are just "squads with different capacities." I doubt it's effortless.

>

> Nothing is effortless. **But**, since that particular path has been walked once, the second time will be much easier. And we're still talking about a single, one-time change versus rebalancing **all** the encounters. Just this is far, **FAR** more work. And it scales into the future, creating an extra workload for each and every raid to be released.

 

I did admit that at some point there would be a balance where it would have ended up being less work, I just don't think that balance point would be as close as you think it would be, and I think it would make for better content to actually make the existing raids balanced easier than to just cram more players into them. I think it would be worth the added work.

[Teamkiller.4315]

I feel like at this point ohoni is simply trolling.

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > @"Sephylon.4938" said:

> > No, infact the opposite: that they beat it too quickly that it fails to teach anything.

>

> I'm not sure how you'd fix killing them fast because if you add restrictions, like having to wait for 10 players to be ready before engaging the adds, it would seriously hurt other legit groups that simply want to kill them fast while waiting for the rest of the group to come.

>

> If someone is with a good group that is willing to teach Vale Guardian anyway then beating the pre-event mobs quickly won't make a real difference, the trainers will explain the entire fight. If a group of first timers goes to Raid, without an experienced person to teach them, then it's up to them to not engage the adds before everyone is there, so they practice and learn the mechanics from the adds, before engaging Vale Guardian.

I agree with that. I don't think changing these either way would do anything to help, actually. People do not fail individual guardians (well, if they pay attention anyway). On the other hand, they don't really offer much in way of training - and it's not because they die too fast. I mean, they do introduce mechanics that players will need to deal with later on, but they don't really help players to train with them. Why? Because even casual players generally do not fail _single_ mechanics. The failures start to happen only when you make players deal with a multitude of mechanics at the same time. It's watching out for many mechanics while in a boss fight that is a problem, not those mechanics individually.

 

For example, let's take the greens. If the only thing 4 green runners had to do was to be in the circle when it pops, hardly anyone would fail that. Problem is, the runners need also watch out for blues, avoid the seekers, keep their HPs up so they won't get downed by initial damage pulse, cc when necessary... all the while also dps-ing the boss. Split guardians won't help you with that.

 

An ideal training solution would allow you to experience more and more of those mechanics at the same time until you got used to all of them being up. We're talking here basically about a spawnable "boss instance" where, similarily to a golem, you can manipulate many things, including being able to enable/disable specific boss mechanics.

 

Notice however, that training is _not_ the only purpose of the easy mode, so that wouldn't really work for it (although "raid boss training arena" would make a great guildhall update). If we're talking easy mode, then we're talking a single difficulty, so no scaling of mechanics here. Thus, the next best thing would be to either reduce the possibility of negative interaction of two or more mechanics at the same time, or to weaken the mechanics in such a way that getting them all right would not be as crucial.

 

In VG, the main killer is greens, but at the same time generally it's not due to failing them directly, but due to something else interfering. So, it's one or more of the players getting teleported (and thus not being in green when it pops). It's green spawning on a lit floor (due to tanking fail, or not enough cc). It's seekers downing one of the green runners, or blocking them from getting to green on time. It's someone getting teleported away from stack before green when using overheal strategy.

 

My preferred way would be to reduce the green damage by 25% for each player in green when it pops. So, for 4 players there's no change. If one player won't get there on time, it's 25% of normal damage, and so on.

Now, if we're trying to force training the mechanics (again, notice that not everyone wants that from easy mode, some would prefer that the training part was just a voluntary option, and not something required) we might increase the base damage to 100% of full hp to compensate. That would prevent players from being able to easily ignore the mechanics (for example, overheal would not be possible), and would heavily incentivize having as many as possible of all 4 green runners execute the mechanic correctly.

 

There are a few more adjustments i might make (reduce teleport range, and/or reduce seeker damage, and/or reduce breakbar/cc phase bombardment damage), but the one above i'd say would be most important.

 

Apart from that, i'd see the whole of easy mode have some adjustments that would be common regardless of bosses, like no enrage, removing the ress lockout (notice, that on many bosses being able to ress wouldn't actually help that much) , and making many of the mechanics more clearly visible. NPC shoutouts for more important mechanics, mentioned before, would also be a great idea. They already work well as cues in some of the boss fights on normal mode. In fact i wouldn't mind the last two (visibility changes and voice cues) making their way to current raids as well.

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> For example, let's take the greens. If the only thing 4 green runners had to do was to be in the circle when it pops, hardly anyone would fail that. Problem is, the runners need also watch out for blues, avoid the seekers, keep their HPs up so they won't get downed by initial damage pulse, cc when necessary... all the while also dps-ing the boss. Split guardians won't help you with that.

>

 

That's an organisational problem, the green runners SHOULD only have to deal with going to the green circle when it pops. 3 of them will deal ranged dps, while the 4th will keep them healed and alive. Blue teleport circles spawn near the Value Guardian so unless the green circle appears close to it, you won't have to deal with those at the same time. Team composition is very key in the Vale Guardian fight. It's when players try to do all at once that they fail, it's why we split roles and perhaps that role split isn't as well understood, especially by newer players who are used to the rest of the game doing everything themselves.

 

> An ideal training solution would allow you to experience more and more of those mechanics at the same time until you got used to all of them being up. We're talking here basically about a spawnable "boss instance" where, similarily to a golem, you can manipulate many things, including being able to enable/disable specific boss mechanics.

 

Isn't that what the first phase of Vale Guardian is all about? You first learn about the mechanics individually, fighting the pre-event, then you experience all of them at once in the first phase.

 

> My preferred way would be to reduce the green damage by 25% for each player in green when it pops. So, for 4 players there's no change. If one player won't get there on time, it's 25% of normal damage, and so on.

 

Reduce the green damage by 25% so if 4 players are in the green you take zero damage?

 

> There are a few more adjustments i might make (reduce teleport range, and/or reduce seeker damage, and/or reduce breakbar/cc phase bombardment damage), but the one above i'd say would be most important.

 

I'm not sure about teleport range, but making it less random would certainly be a nice change even for normal mode. Praying to RNG when you get teleported isn't very engaging/fun.

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > For example, let's take the greens. If the only thing 4 green runners had to do was to be in the circle when it pops, hardly anyone would fail that. Problem is, the runners need also watch out for blues, avoid the seekers, keep their HPs up so they won't get downed by initial damage pulse, cc when necessary... all the while also dps-ing the boss. Split guardians won't help you with that.

> >

>

> That's an organisational problem, the green runners SHOULD only have to deal with going to the green circle when it pops. 3 of them will deal ranged dps, while the 4th will keep them healed and alive. Blue teleport circles spawn near the Value Guardian so unless the green circle appears close to it, you won't have to deal with those at the same time.

It works mostly okay during the first phase, and generally as well during the second, but on the third phase it's quite common for blues to spawn inside greens, if the green happens to spawn too close to the path VG is being led on.

 

In general, you only fail greens in first phase when someone doesn't pay attention, you fail them sometimes in second phase sometimes when they spawn too far on the different section (when tank runs back and forth between two sections), and you fail even more often in third phase, when it gets even more chaotic and you need to keep up with VG on top of everything else.

 

And that's only about blues. There's still seekers, breakbar mechanic (both cc and damage from artillery barrage), and fulfilling your basic role (either dps or heal). It's not that bad once you get used to it, but in the beginning for many people it can be too overwhelming.

 

Also, as you say, team composition matters. It's one thing to learn everything if everyone else is doing their job, and the only problems come from your own mistakes. What you think happens though, when, in addition to you being new, your _healer_ is still getting too overwhelmed and you don't get as much healing as you should to keep you afloat? Or when you tank fails and takes the blue (or just moves too slowly/too fast), and green ends up spawning on the wrong section?

 

 

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

>Team composition is very key in the Vale Guardian fight. It's when players try to do all at once that they fail, it's why we split roles and perhaps that role split isn't as well understood, especially by newer players who are used to the rest of the game doing everything themselves.

Yes, team composition is the key, and the performance of every player is tightly tied to performance of other team members. Thus, when everyone is new, and everyone is failing, it creates a feedback loop that adds to the chaos.

 

>

> > An ideal training solution would allow you to experience more and more of those mechanics at the same time until you got used to all of them being up. We're talking here basically about a spawnable "boss instance" where, similarily to a golem, you can manipulate many things, including being able to enable/disable specific boss mechanics.

>

> Isn't that what the first phase of Vale Guardian is all about? You first learn about the mechanics individually, fighting the pre-event, then you experience all of them at once in the first phase.

No, the first phase shows you mechanics, but doesn't let you really train them. As i mentioned, each of those mechanics is really easy if you don't need to worry about others. Except perhaps blues, that for new players can often be plain invisible under all the mesmer wells. Thus, "training" on little colored guardians doesn't really help you prepare for the big one.

 

>

> > My preferred way would be to reduce the green damage by 25% for each player in green when it pops. So, for 4 players there's no change. If one player won't get there on time, it's 25% of normal damage, and so on.

>

> Reduce the green damage by 25% so if 4 players are in the green you take zero damage?

Yep, the same as it is now, but gradual (damage decrease per each person in circle), not binary (full damage if even one person is missing, no damage if all 4).

Notice, I'm _not_ speaking of the initial damage greens do to people standing inside, just about the whole party damage when the green pops.

 

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > There are a few more adjustments i might make (reduce teleport range, and/or reduce seeker damage, and/or reduce breakbar/cc phase bombardment damage), but the one above i'd say would be most important.

>

> I'm not sure about teleport range, but making it less random would certainly be a nice change even for normal mode. Praying to RNG when you get teleported isn't very engaging/fun.

Well, if the influence of the RNGesus on the fight could be reduced in normal mode, i definitely wouldn't be against it. I also stil think that even normal mode could use some adjustments to visibility of certain mechanics.

 

 

 

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> Also, as you say, team composition matters. It's one thing to learn everything if everyone else is doing their job, and the only problems come from your own mistakes. What you think happens though, when, in addition to you being new, your _healer_ is still getting too overwhelmed and you don't get as much healing as you should to keep you afloat? Or when you tank fails and takes the blue (or just moves too slowly/too fast), and green ends up spawning on the wrong section?

>

 

Some things are easy to solve, like the healers getting overwhelmed, you get another healer, and/or make sure they use more healing oriented gear. Others are impossible, like in the tank situation. That's why I made a proposal for at least those "raid roles" to have a way of training without hurting the rest of the team. Not an easy mode or anything, make the kitty golem chase you around while the floor is lit and greens spawn (you don't have to go to those) to learn the timing. It can be hard to convince a group of pro players (or even more casual players) to let you practice tanking when there is already someone that knows how to do it, meaning it's much harder to train for it. In the end the most limiting factor of Vale Guardian success is the tank knowledge/skill, which can't be acquired by playing the content in other roles Personally even though I've killed Vale Guardian loads of times, I still have no experience on how to tank him and when to cross. I know the basics because I've seen others doing it, but I'll probably fail some times if I go and train for it.

 

> No, the first phase shows you mechanics, but doesn't let you really train them. As i mentioned, each of those mechanics is really easy if you don't need to worry about others. Except perhaps blues, that for new players can often be plain invisible under all the mesmer wells. Thus, "training" on little colored guardians doesn't really help you prepare for the big one.

>

 

I meant the actual first phase of Vale Guardian, not the pre-event. Blues, Greens, Reds are all there in that phase and you can train those mechanics simultaneously just fine.

 

> Well, if the influence of the RNGesus on the fight could be reduced in normal mode, i definitely wouldn't be against it. I also stil think that even normal mode could use some adjustments to visibility of certain mechanics.

>

 

When I was first fighting Vale Guardian I was always dodging the blue teleport at the last second, reacting to it mostly, it's troublesome because the boss is hidden behind particle effects and is very hard to see the mechanics. Then I figured out that they make a very very distinct sound, green circles also make a unique sound when they spawn, but it's not very audible at a distance. Since the entire game suffers from visibility issues, not just Raids, perhaps the better solution would be to make audible cues instead. The could make the Raid mechanic sounds a separate volume, instead of using your eyes to identify the mechanic (which is hard in this game) you will instead use your ears.

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > Also, as you say, team composition matters. It's one thing to learn everything if everyone else is doing their job, and the only problems come from your own mistakes. What you think happens though, when, in addition to you being new, your _healer_ is still getting too overwhelmed and you don't get as much healing as you should to keep you afloat? Or when you tank fails and takes the blue (or just moves too slowly/too fast), and green ends up spawning on the wrong section?

> >

>

> Some things are easy to solve, like the healers getting overwhelmed, you get another healer, and/or make sure they use more healing oriented gear.

We actually used 2 healers (we still do), and at that time druids used magi, so it was hard to get any more healing that way. And 3 healers don't work all that good here at all (unlike on cairn, where adding tempest magi auramancer can do wonders for success chances).

 

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> Others are impossible, like in the tank situation. That's why I made a proposal for at least those "raid roles" to have a way of training without hurting the rest of the team. Not an easy mode or anything, make the kitty golem chase you around while the floor is lit and greens spawn (you don't have to go to those) to learn the timing. It can be hard to convince a group of pro players (or even more casual players) to let you practice tanking when there is already someone that knows how to do it, meaning it's much harder to train for it. In the end the most limiting factor of Vale Guardian success is the tank knowledge/skill, which can't be acquired by playing the content in other roles Personally even though I've killed Vale Guardian loads of times, I still have no experience on how to tank him and when to cross. I know the basics because I've seen others doing it, but I'll probably fail some times if I go and train for it.

We had to train our tank from ground up. That was... messy.

 

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > No, the first phase shows you mechanics, but doesn't let you really train them. As i mentioned, each of those mechanics is really easy if you don't need to worry about others. Except perhaps blues, that for new players can often be plain invisible under all the mesmer wells. Thus, "training" on little colored guardians doesn't really help you prepare for the big one.

> >

>

> I meant the actual first phase of Vale Guardian, not the pre-event. Blues, Greens, Reds are all there in that phase and you can train those mechanics simultaneously just fine.

That's indeed better, although the things that come after are important as well. People usually learn the first phase relatively easily, but then it goes really downward.

 

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > Well, if the influence of the RNGesus on the fight could be reduced in normal mode, i definitely wouldn't be against it. I also stil think that even normal mode could use some adjustments to visibility of certain mechanics.

> >

>

> When I was first fighting Vale Guardian I was always dodging the blue teleport at the last second, reacting to it mostly, it's troublesome because the boss is hidden behind particle effects and is very hard to see the mechanics. Then I figured out that they make a very very distinct sound, green circles also make a unique sound when they spawn, but it's not very audible at a distance. Since the entire game suffers from visibility issues, not just Raids, perhaps the better solution would be to make audible cues instead. The could make the Raid mechanic sounds a separate volume, instead of using your eyes to identify the mechanic (which is hard in this game) you will instead use your ears.

Sound cues would be good for some mechanics, like greens and blues, but there are some, like SH walls, where it probably wouldn't work.

 

Edit:

I actually liked the idea from that other thread to slightly ease on damage immunity on blue and red (somewhere between 20 and 40% of power damage on red, and damage through buff on blue sounds reasonable to me) on easy mode. Either that, or add environment weapons on sections that could help (torches on red, some debuffing throwable or asura gun on blue).

 

 

 

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> We actually used 2 healers (we still do), and at that time druids used magi, so it was hard to get any more healing that way. And 3 healers don't work all that good here at all (unlike on cairn, where adding tempest magi auramancer can do wonders for success chances).

>

 

Well if you had two magi druids that were struggling with healing maybe they needed more healing training? Like playing other content as healers to get better healing others? There are more than enough world boss encounters that do way more damage than Vale Guardian and practicing healing there is a better experience. Only reason healing isn't the go to in the open world is because you can easily revive the downed (and even the dead sometimes) Try keeping players alive during Chak Gerent, that's good practice.

 

> That's indeed better, although the things that come after are important as well. People usually learn the first phase relatively easily, but then it goes really downward.

 

What I was getting it at is that if the groups masters phase 1, then the later phases will be significantly easier. Then once you learn phase 2, phase 3 will become easier, it's a gradual experience and not something you master all at once. If a group is struggling at Phase 2, maybe they should practice more on Phase 1, and if they struggle on Phase 3, they should practice on Phase 2. There was a time when my group first done Vale Guardian and we were far more concerned in phasing VG with a good timer on Phase 1 than beating the entire encounter. If we failed, we gg'ed and started over because we *knew* if we moved to the next phase while this messed up we would never succeed.

It gets worse on bosses like Slothasar where dealing with adds from the first minute is important, or Xera with the shards, or Gorseval with the orbs.

 

> Sound cues would be good for some mechanics, like greens and blues, but there are some, like SH walls, where it probably wouldn't work.

 

SH walls need an overhaul, it's one the least well designed mechanics in Raids.

[Ayakaru.6583]

correct me if I'm wrong but..

I thought VG was already an easy mode boss?

I mean.. I don't picture it failing for anyone anymore.

Everytime I see it fail it's because a green spawns in the hostile area, but I dont hear of anyone getting killed, or failing to kill it within the timer anymore.

it's a completely chewed out boss, like tequatl, once difficult, until all mechanics were understoond. now it's press space to win (not literally of course)

[Sephylon.4938]

For experienced players yes. The reason I want to introduce an easy mode is leaning more towards newer/inexperienced players, to provide them an alternative way to be able to get into the current raids. Other options on how to do this have been proposed, such as boss mechanics on training golem, if you have an idea on how to achieve the goal of giving new players an in-game way experience in raids outside of training groups, which I find to be rather rare, especially if you can't play on prime time, I'd be happy to hear of them.

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"Ayakaru.6583" said:

> correct me if I'm wrong but..

> I thought VG was already an easy mode boss?

> I mean.. I don't picture it failing for anyone anymore.

> Everytime I see it fail it's because a green spawns in the hostile area, but I dont hear of anyone getting killed, or failing to kill it within the timer anymore.

> it's a completely chewed out boss, like tequatl, once difficult, until all mechanics were understoond. now it's press space to win (not literally of course)

Nah. It's because you just don't see groups of players that found this encounter too hard anymore. Either because they simply stopped trying at some point, or because they aren't in groups nowadays (and carrying one of such players through the encounter by a group of people that find it easy is not so hard).

 

Take a group of players completely new to raiding, without someone experienced to lead them through the encounter, and it suddenly stops being easy. And that's even when you assume those are the players with "raid-compatible" skills and mindset. Take a group of people that gave up on killing it, and it suddenly becomes an impassable obstacle.

 

Basically, you're wrong here. It being easy for you doesn't mean it's equally easy for others. You not seeing it fail doesn't mean there aren't groups that struggle with it. It just means you don't see those other, struggling players having problems with it, because they do it out of your sight. Or simply gave up long ago.

 

[Henry.5713]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"Ayakaru.6583" said:

> > correct me if I'm wrong but..

> > I thought VG was already an easy mode boss?

> > I mean.. I don't picture it failing for anyone anymore.

> > Everytime I see it fail it's because a green spawns in the hostile area, but I dont hear of anyone getting killed, or failing to kill it within the timer anymore.

> > it's a completely chewed out boss, like tequatl, once difficult, until all mechanics were understoond. now it's press space to win (not literally of course)

> Nah. It's because you just don't see groups of players that found this encounter too hard anymore. Either because they simply stopped trying at some point, or because they aren't in groups nowadays (and carrying one of such players through the encounter by a group of people that find it easy is not so hard).

>

> Take a group of players completely new to raiding, without someone experienced to lead them through the encounter, and it suddenly stops being easy. And that's even when you assume those are the players with "raid-compatible" skills and mindset. Take a group of people that gave up on killing it, and it suddenly becomes an impassable obstacle.

>

> Basically, you're wrong here. It being easy for you doesn't mean it's equally easy for others. You not seeing it fail doesn't mean there aren't groups that struggle with it. It just means you don't see those other, struggling players having problems with it, because they do it out of your sight. Or simply gave up long ago.

>

 

Missing an experienced leader does indeed make it harder for a group of complete newbies. The major difference is the abundance of guides and videos, however.

Anyone interested is able to look up all of the information they'd ever need. While most of the failures in the past came from a lack of knowledge and understanding.

It depends on how well prepared the group in question is going to be. Bosses like VG are hardly impassible unless this is about people giving up after a few tries as the raids do not turn out to be the easy loot people are used to.

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"Henry.5713" said:

> Missing an experienced leader does indeed make it harder for a group of complete newbies. The major difference is the abundance of guides and videos, however.

> Anyone interested is able to look up all of the information they'd ever need. While most of the failures in the past came from a lack of knowledge and understanding.

> It depends on how well prepared the group in question is going to be. Bosses like VG are hardly impassible unless this is about people giving up after a few tries as the raids do not turn out to be the easy loot people are used to.

My experience shows that even fully prepared, it can take far more than "few tries" to succeed. Guides help, of course, but knowing about the mechanics and actually facing them in real encounter is a vastly different experience. And the speed at which people learn the encounter is not the same for everyone.

It's still very far from "hardly failing for anyone anymore".

 

[sokeenoppa.5384]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > > >As far as I know, raids are open to anyone.

> > > > >

> > > > > This is disingenuous at best. We've made perfectly clear why the existing raids are not accessible to many players. It's like you're pointing at a building with three steps leading into it and saying "as far as I know, this door is open to anyone," ignoring that some people would have a great deal of difficulty crossing those steps.

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > And I asked before - which of the steps I described you're having trouble with? That's what community does - it helps. Here, I expressed interested so I could help. And you ignored it. It seems like you *don't want* to be helped.

> > >

> > > The problem is, the things that I see as problems, you see as virtues. I've told you which steps I'm having difficulty with and what it would take to resolve them, and so far you answer is "no, you can't have any of that, but have you tried just getting out of that chair and walking? I do it every day."

> >

> > So your answer is "if I don't want to get out of the chair, nobody should ever need to"? Come on.

>

> Again, I've made clear the help *I* need to get into raiding. You refuse to allow that aid to be provided. You're perfectly willing to "help," so long as I do it entirely on your terms, you're willing to help me play like you, but not willing to let me play like me and still be successful. That is not how helping works. It is just pretending to be helpful to avoid doing the hard work of actually solving anything.

 

Are you Happy If we take you raiding with us, you can play what prof/build you ever want and skip all the mechanics that you want?

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"sokeenoppa.5384" said:

> > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > > > >As far as I know, raids are open to anyone.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > This is disingenuous at best. We've made perfectly clear why the existing raids are not accessible to many players. It's like you're pointing at a building with three steps leading into it and saying "as far as I know, this door is open to anyone," ignoring that some people would have a great deal of difficulty crossing those steps.

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > And I asked before - which of the steps I described you're having trouble with? That's what community does - it helps. Here, I expressed interested so I could help. And you ignored it. It seems like you *don't want* to be helped.

> > > >

> > > > The problem is, the things that I see as problems, you see as virtues. I've told you which steps I'm having difficulty with and what it would take to resolve them, and so far you answer is "no, you can't have any of that, but have you tried just getting out of that chair and walking? I do it every day."

> > >

> > > So your answer is "if I don't want to get out of the chair, nobody should ever need to"? Come on.

> >

> > Again, I've made clear the help *I* need to get into raiding. You refuse to allow that aid to be provided. You're perfectly willing to "help," so long as I do it entirely on your terms, you're willing to help me play like you, but not willing to let me play like me and still be successful. That is not how helping works. It is just pretending to be helpful to avoid doing the hard work of actually solving anything.

>

> Are you Happy If we take you raiding with us, you can play what prof/build you ever want and skip all the mechanics that you want?

 

I don't want to be carried, I don't want to provide anything less than my fellow players, I just want no more expected of my fellow players than I'm willing to provide. What I'm asking for here is not just some personal favor, it's a change that I believe would be better for the game as a whole, a mode that is **FUN** for a lot of players that cannot enjoy the mode in its current form.

[sokeenoppa.5384]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"sokeenoppa.5384" said:

> > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > > > > >As far as I know, raids are open to anyone.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > This is disingenuous at best. We've made perfectly clear why the existing raids are not accessible to many players. It's like you're pointing at a building with three steps leading into it and saying "as far as I know, this door is open to anyone," ignoring that some people would have a great deal of difficulty crossing those steps.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > And I asked before - which of the steps I described you're having trouble with? That's what community does - it helps. Here, I expressed interested so I could help. And you ignored it. It seems like you *don't want* to be helped.

> > > > >

> > > > > The problem is, the things that I see as problems, you see as virtues. I've told you which steps I'm having difficulty with and what it would take to resolve them, and so far you answer is "no, you can't have any of that, but have you tried just getting out of that chair and walking? I do it every day."

> > > >

> > > > So your answer is "if I don't want to get out of the chair, nobody should ever need to"? Come on.

> > >

> > > Again, I've made clear the help *I* need to get into raiding. You refuse to allow that aid to be provided. You're perfectly willing to "help," so long as I do it entirely on your terms, you're willing to help me play like you, but not willing to let me play like me and still be successful. That is not how helping works. It is just pretending to be helpful to avoid doing the hard work of actually solving anything.

> >

> > Are you Happy If we take you raiding with us, you can play what prof/build you ever want and skip all the mechanics that you want?

>

> I don't want to be carried, I don't want to provide anything less than my fellow players, I just want no more expected of my fellow players than I'm willing to provide. What I'm asking for here is not just some personal favor, it's a change that I believe would be better for the game as a whole, a mode that is **FUN** for a lot of players that cannot enjoy the mode in its current form.

 

I dont get it. Why you cant enjoy it, is it too hard or what? If 3man can do it, or 10 mesmers can do it, why you and like minded ppl cant do it with your own way and have fun doing it?

[Feanor.2358]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"sokeenoppa.5384" said:

> > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > > > > >As far as I know, raids are open to anyone.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > This is disingenuous at best. We've made perfectly clear why the existing raids are not accessible to many players. It's like you're pointing at a building with three steps leading into it and saying "as far as I know, this door is open to anyone," ignoring that some people would have a great deal of difficulty crossing those steps.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > And I asked before - which of the steps I described you're having trouble with? That's what community does - it helps. Here, I expressed interested so I could help. And you ignored it. It seems like you *don't want* to be helped.

> > > > >

> > > > > The problem is, the things that I see as problems, you see as virtues. I've told you which steps I'm having difficulty with and what it would take to resolve them, and so far you answer is "no, you can't have any of that, but have you tried just getting out of that chair and walking? I do it every day."

> > > >

> > > > So your answer is "if I don't want to get out of the chair, nobody should ever need to"? Come on.

> > >

> > > Again, I've made clear the help *I* need to get into raiding. You refuse to allow that aid to be provided. You're perfectly willing to "help," so long as I do it entirely on your terms, you're willing to help me play like you, but not willing to let me play like me and still be successful. That is not how helping works. It is just pretending to be helpful to avoid doing the hard work of actually solving anything.

> >

> > Are you Happy If we take you raiding with us, you can play what prof/build you ever want and skip all the mechanics that you want?

>

> I don't want to be carried, I don't want to provide anything less than my fellow players, I just want no more expected of my fellow players than I'm willing to provide.

 

First off, you *will* provide less regardless. Second, insisting on making everyone the same shade of mediocrity? That sounds way too much like communism. I've lived that, I don't want it again. Especially in my free time.

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"sokeenoppa.5384" said:

> I dont get it. Why you cant enjoy it, is it too hard or what? If 3man can do it, or 10 mesmers can do it, why you and like minded ppl cant do it with your own way and have fun doing it?

 

It's totally ok that you don't get it, so long as you don['t confuse not getting it for there not being a problem.

 

The problem with the current system is that if "10 like-minded people" went in and "just did it," then we would fail, because that's how the content is currently designed, and we wouldn't enjoy that. For us "like minded people" to enjoy it, the actual content needs to change.

 

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> First off, you *will* provide less regardless.

 

Not true at all. If the content is tuned properly, then I full expect to be providing more than my fair share of the effort most of the time, and I'm cool with that.

 

>Second, insisting on making everyone the same shade of mediocrity? That sounds way too much like communism. I've lived that, I don't want it again. Especially in my free time.

 

You don't have to, the hard mode would still exist for those that want it.

[Feanor.2358]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"sokeenoppa.5384" said:

> > I dont get it. Why you cant enjoy it, is it too hard or what? If 3man can do it, or 10 mesmers can do it, why you and like minded ppl cant do it with your own way and have fun doing it?

>

> It's totally ok that you don't get it, so long as you don['t confuse not getting it for there not being a problem.

>

> The problem with the current system is that if "10 like-minded people" went in and "just did it," then we would fail, because that's how the content is currently designed, and we wouldn't enjoy that. For us "like minded people" to enjoy it, the actual content needs to change.

>

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > First off, you *will* provide less regardless.

>

> Not true at all. If the content is tuned properly, then I full expect to be providing more than my fair share of the effort most of the time, and I'm cool with that.

 

Nah, you don't understand. It doesn't matter if you're doing "enough". An experienced player will do more. Not because it is necessary, simply because they can. And you'd end up doing less. In some cases, *MUCH* less. Sometimes when I feel like doing recommended fractals after my daily clear I see random people join on various builds. Since these are cakewalk anyway, we don't mind. I've seen damage dealers deal as low as 1/3rd of my damage output over the course of the fight. I have no doubt they are able to clear the content without me. But they're contributing less regardless.

[sokeenoppa.5384]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"sokeenoppa.5384" said:

> > I dont get it. Why you cant enjoy it, is it too hard or what? If 3man can do it, or 10 mesmers can do it, why you and like minded ppl cant do it with your own way and have fun doing it?

>

> It's totally ok that you don't get it, so long as you don['t confuse not getting it for there not being a problem.

>

> The problem with the current system is that if "10 like-minded people" went in and "just did it," then we would fail, because that's how the content is currently designed, and we wouldn't enjoy that. For us "like minded people" to enjoy it, the actual content needs to change.

>

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > First off, you *will* provide less regardless.

>

> Not true at all. If the content is tuned properly, then I full expect to be providing more than my fair share of the effort most of the time, and I'm cool with that.

>

> >Second, insisting on making everyone the same shade of mediocrity? That sounds way too much like communism. I've lived that, I don't want it again. Especially in my free time.

>

> You don't have to, the hard mode would still exist for those that want it.

 

When Me and My friends did VG first Time, we used strange builds and strange team comp. It Took couple of tries yes but we did it and it was fun. By Strange Comp i mean we didn't had any druids or chronos. So why you think that you and others cant do it?

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

>Nah, you don't understand. It doesn't matter if you're doing "enough". An experienced player will do more. Not because it is necessary, simply because they can.

 

Maybe, but I don't expect to see many more experienced players around, since they would be in the harder mode. I pulled my weight in dungeons and fractals, I expect to pull my weight here too, I'd just have less weight to pull.

 

>I have no doubt they are able to clear the content without me. But they're contributing less regardless.

 

It's not their fault that you're overbuilt for the content. So long as they contribute their fair share of what is *necessary* to complete the content, they've done their part, regardless of how much you do.

 

 

> @"sokeenoppa.5384" said:

> When Me and My friends did VG first Time, we used strange builds and strange team comp. It Took couple of tries yes but we did it and it was fun. By Strange Comp i mean we didn't had any druids or chronos. So why you think that you and others cant do it?

 

Different people, different personalities. Again, that isn't a problem, unless you decide to assume that everyone else either *is* or *should be* like you.

[Feanor.2358]

What would "overbuilt" even mean? Am I somehow wrong now, for understanding the combat system and making use of it? :lol:

[sokeenoppa.5384]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> >Nah, you don't understand. It doesn't matter if you're doing "enough". An experienced player will do more. Not because it is necessary, simply because they can.

>

> Maybe, but I don't expect to see many more experienced players around, since they would be in the harder mode. I pulled my weight in dungeons and fractals, I expect to pull my weight here too, I'd just have less weight to pull.

>

> >I have no doubt they are able to clear the content without me. But they're contributing less regardless.

>

> It's not their fault that you're overbuilt for the content. So long as they contribute their fair share of what is *necessary* to complete the content, they've done their part, regardless of how much you do.

>

>

> > @"sokeenoppa.5384" said:

> > When Me and My friends did VG first Time, we used strange builds and strange team comp. It Took couple of tries yes but we did it and it was fun. By Strange Comp i mean we didn't had any druids or chronos. So why you think that you and others cant do it?

>

> Different people, different personalities. Again, that isn't a problem, unless you decide to assume that everyone else either *is* or *should be* like you.

 

But you said that If you try it, it will fail. What makes you think that? Its not hard or hardcore, players just tend to make it look like that you have to min/max everything and do perfect rotations. Arah dungeon IMO is lot harder.

[Sephylon.4938]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"sokeenoppa.5384" said:

> > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > > > > >As far as I know, raids are open to anyone.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > This is disingenuous at best. We've made perfectly clear why the existing raids are not accessible to many players. It's like you're pointing at a building with three steps leading into it and saying "as far as I know, this door is open to anyone," ignoring that some people would have a great deal of difficulty crossing those steps.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > And I asked before - which of the steps I described you're having trouble with? That's what community does - it helps. Here, I expressed interested so I could help. And you ignored it. It seems like you *don't want* to be helped.

> > > > >

> > > > > The problem is, the things that I see as problems, you see as virtues. I've told you which steps I'm having difficulty with and what it would take to resolve them, and so far you answer is "no, you can't have any of that, but have you tried just getting out of that chair and walking? I do it every day."

> > > >

> > > > So your answer is "if I don't want to get out of the chair, nobody should ever need to"? Come on.

> > >

> > > Again, I've made clear the help *I* need to get into raiding. You refuse to allow that aid to be provided. You're perfectly willing to "help," so long as I do it entirely on your terms, you're willing to help me play like you, but not willing to let me play like me and still be successful. That is not how helping works. It is just pretending to be helpful to avoid doing the hard work of actually solving anything.

> >

> > Are you Happy If we take you raiding with us, you can play what prof/build you ever want and skip all the mechanics that you want?

>

> I don't want to be carried, I don't want to provide anything less than my fellow players, I just want no more expected of my fellow players than I'm willing to provide. What I'm asking for here is not just some personal favor, it's a change that I believe would be better for the game as a whole, a mode that is **FUN** for a lot of players that cannot enjoy the mode in its current form.

 

I wouldn't look this gift horse in the mouth just because it's not how you want to recieve your legy armor. You're being offered something most people would only dream of. I'd swalow my pride and take this offer if I were you. Just my 2 cents