PvP was a failure, should support continue?

[phokus.8934]

> @"Chilli.2976" said:

> > @"phokus.8934" said:

> > PvP is basically in maintenance mode. It's not going away, it's not going to get sweeping quick changes. PvP was grossly mismanaged and it's at a good point now although it does need some better balancing.

> >

> > The glory days are over. Just enjoy PvP for what it is now.

>

> How can you when PvP population is dead?

 

Well it's not dead by definition. You can still PvP although the matches may not be desirable and/or sit through queue times.

[Aza.2105]

> @"witcher.3197" said:

> They should keep GW2 for PvE and push GW1 for PvP tbh.. they even fixed the ping this week so the biggest problem was solved.

 

They can port gw1 to the gw2 engine, rename it gw arena and i'd buy it.

 

So should support continue in gw2 for pvp? Well its been bare minimum for a long long time already.

[JTGuevara.9018]

> @"BMW.2951" said:

> > @"pah.4931" said:

> > I kinda want a complete overhaul. Better balance / splits. More gamemodes. Team-q for ranked conquest with the best rewards, etc.

> >

> > I'd even pay for it. Right now, as mainly a PvP player, I have no incentive to buy gems because that money goes into supporting PvE while PvP languishes. And then their data will show PvPers don't buy gems, so they don't support PvP as much. It's vicious cycle!

>

> The ability to q with a full 5 man premade would break the game man. Why don't people realize this? How would you like to fight against 5 scourges? How about 5 mesmers? Wouldn't be fun would it? The system they have in place now is fine with only 2 people in a party.

>

> Also why would you want ANET to just let PvP go? Myself and a lot of players only enjoy PvP because I love being competitive and playing actual players. The PvP in this MMO is the best I have ever experience and I won't want them to just let it go.

 

So take care of the scourge problem. While doing that, put in 5-man. We can walk and chew gum at the same time. :P

 

I mean, wvw is getting an overhaul...so why not pvp? We all literally have nothing to lose at this point.

 

 

[Buran.3796]

My answer would be NO, because PvE raids are trash in which I have no interest into and I only roam in WvW, so any resource diverted from PvP to WvW probably wouldn't provide any engaging contentfor me.

[Eddbopkins.2630]

Its only a failure when its ignored...even during esl there wasnt this much attention to balance, skill splitting, and overall care that pvp is getting today.

[lordhelmos.7623]

When you think about it, how many gw2 streamers are pvping? There is almost no exposure. Everyone is streaming wvw roaming.

 

Also there are some pvp private rooms but everyone goes to wvw to duel. There are even full guilds and designated areas of the map where people duel outside of pvp due to how bad the amulet system and unavailable rune and stat combinations that make certain builds impossible to run.

 

To be honest I think the player base already abandoned pvp and the game would likely benefit by having it removed.

 

The small population in pvp is not the kind of community that can be grown or sustained simply because it’s just a group of people in a mental waiting room until they come to the realization that they would be happier leaving gw2 behind for a game fully built for pvp such as:

 

Overwatch

DOTA

League of legends

Paladins (which even has a meaner character with a shatter skill and gs beam main weapon)

Fortnite

PUBG

Battlerite

And many others

 

The kind of people that are in pvp should go to these games because they really will just continue to be unhappy in gw2.

 

By eliminating pvp I think the effect on gw2 will be minimal, would remove some toxicity, and allow more resources to the game modes that really define gw2, which are pve and wvw

 

Gw2s competitive design was a mistake because really what guild wars 2 does best it’s create and giant casual and cooperative experience that involves huge numbers of people that is easy to include yourself in.

 

Whether this is taking giant castles with hundreds of people, raiding, doing massive world events, or just standing in heavily populated towns looking cool.

 

The tiny pvp competitive modes just don’t jive with the rest of the game and just hold it back.

 

It’s time to cut the sandbag loose from the hot air balloon and just kill pvp for the good of the game.

[Chaith.8256]

> @"lordhelmos.7623" said:

> By eliminating pvp I think the effect on gw2 will be minimal, would remove some toxicity, and allow more resources to the game modes that really define gw2, which are pve and wvw

> It’s time to cut the sandbag loose from the hot air balloon and just kill pvp for the good of the game.

 

Remove some toxicity, hah. We'll check your toxicity levels if they were to remove the game mode you primarily use and see if it increases.

 

 

[Buran.3796]

> @"lordhelmos.7623" said:

> When you think about it, how many gw2 streamers are pvping? There is almost no exposure. Everyone is streaming wvw roaming.

>

 

Wat

 

The only chanels which can stream with more 100 viewers are from PvP players. No one cares about GW2's PVE/WVW outside the two weeks after a expansion release. At this very moment GW2 in twitch has ~500 viewers, about 1/10 of BDO (which isn't even popular, you known). You can even see a rise when a balance patch is released, because PvPers are testing.

 

[heroicfish.8243]

> @"lordhelmos.7623" said:

> When you think about it, how many gw2 streamers are pvping? There is almost no exposure. Everyone is streaming wvw roaming.

>

> Also there are some pvp private rooms but everyone goes to wvw to duel. There are even full guilds and designated areas of the map where people duel outside of pvp due to how bad the amulet system and unavailable rune and stat combinations that make certain builds impossible to run.

>

> To be honest I think the player base already abandoned pvp and the game would likely benefit by having it removed.

>

> The small population in pvp is not the kind of community that can be grown or sustained simply because it’s just a group of people in a mental waiting room until they come to the realization that they would be happier leaving gw2 behind for a game fully built for pvp such as:

>

> Overwatch

> DOTA

> League of legends

> Paladins (which even has a meaner character with a shatter skill and gs beam main weapon)

> Fortnite

> PUBG

> Battlerite

> And many others

>

> The kind of people that are in pvp should go to these games because they really will just continue to be unhappy in gw2.

>

> By eliminating pvp I think the effect on gw2 will be minimal, would remove some toxicity, and allow more resources to the game modes that really define gw2, which are pve and wvw

>

> Gw2s competitive design was a mistake because really what guild wars 2 does best it’s create and giant casual and cooperative experience that involves huge numbers of people that is easy to include yourself in.

>

> Whether this is taking giant castles with hundreds of people, raiding, doing massive world events, or just standing in heavily populated towns looking cool.

>

> The tiny pvp competitive modes just don’t jive with the rest of the game and just hold it back.

>

> It’s time to cut the sandbag loose from the hot air balloon and just kill pvp for the good of the game.

 

So right now on twitch:

Runescape: 23,113 viewers

WOW: 8,684 viewers

BDO: 4,567 viewers

FFXIV: 1,668 viewers

ESO: 839 viewers

GW2: 480

 

I think those are all the most popular MMOs right now. RS and WOW are all mostly pvp streams, BDO is a pvp game, and then we have the last three which are all squandering, though FFXIV is still decent.

 

I'm going to admit that I don't currently play GW2 and am coming over from BDO because I'm sick of the RNG and want something I can enjoy while playing, which I was hoping could be GW2. As a PVP-centric player, looking at how dead the streams are is pretty disheartening since they're a great place to learn and talk with current players, yet when I look on youtube at recent uploads there are constant PVP or WVW related videos.. so clearly it is an active part of the community.

 

Personally, I think allocating funds into PVP would be what would grow the game immensely, as can be easily seen with viewer ratings of more pvp-centered games, compared to GW2 which is really struggling. It would seem to me that the more PVP focus/options that a game has = the more people who are interested in it, thus the more people who stream it and the more exposure it gets thereafter.. something GW2 definitely used to have, but now seems to be flopping around on. Taking resources from PVP and dumping them into PVE/WVW doesn't seem like it'd do much to grow the game either, because like I've already mentioned, a lot of exposure comes from streams and GW2 is already the lowest of the big boy bunch.

 

Personally, I think if they'd take a handful of servers and enable open world PVP that it would cause a growth spurt as well, so long as it's properly advertised. They could even add some form of territory wars between guilds (GUILD + WARS? WHAT?) and see how that fares. Yes we have WvW, but at the end of the day, guild politics are always a strong pull to keep players interested after they've eaten all the new content. There needs to be something that actually makes the game reflect it's name, 'cuz right now it seems more like a map completion wet-dream rather than GUILDS at WAR.

 

Overall though, I think it can easily be determined that the lack of PVP support/decline of PVP is the reason for such low popularity. If they'd do the exact opposite of what you're proposing, I'm sure they'd get a ton of players to come back. Personally I've seen dozens of BDO youtubers who have GW2 origins.. maybe we should stop sending them off and instead give them reason to come back?

 

[TexZero.7910]

Adding more funds won't fix the fundamental problems that are combat speed and clunky spectator UI.

Even if they do, it wont fix this games "streaming" numbers in the slightest because only a minority of people are invested enough in PvP to watch the stream.

[STIHL.2489]

> @"lordhelmos.7623" said:

> There was a point in time that I enjoyed PvP. Personally I find the little free for all arena in the new mists update more fun and populated than all of PvP itself. This begs the question, as a program manager myself, why continue support for PvP?

>

> I am sure that PvP is a huge resource draw with a full team dedicated to it.

 

I would bet there is no direct dedicated team at all, but more floaters that work on sPvP when they have a lull in their other more pressing projects.

[Arioch.4810]

Population is not an issue:

Type of players that remained in PvP - that is the issue.

Khewra salt mines and PvP chat = same amount of salt.

If you had 100 good sociable players, PvP would be in a good spot. Same faces each match? Maybe, but faces you don't mind seeing. Ideally, players you love playing with/against :)

I would start by filtering chat logs for let's say last 3 month, then give some reward to each PvP-er that typed ggwp while being on a losing side at the end, each PvP-er that opened with glhf..you get the idea.

Reduce amount of salt -> simple way to promote gametype.

[lilypop.7819]

PvP is a key part of GW2 because it keeps people with limited time in the game, it's problem is lack of creditability.

 

There is a strong suspicion that the gameplay is not fair, that peeps are using hacks and/or key marcos, that balance is impossible because of the fog of cheating, that Anet is tolerant of cheaters. I also suspect that Anet's belief in high PvP burst dynamics is not as entertaining as they might think, rather that it encourages cheating. If cheating is PvP 1st failing, the high dependence on Burst, above all other considerations, is the second, imo. I am willing to bet that none of these other games have random 2 seconds kills as a gameplay feature*.

 

Frankly I think they should redo the queuing to create 'boxing weights divisions' - light, middle, heavy weight etc - where burst damage is capped, for example 1k, 2K, 3K. This would be a big turn off for the cheaters - or push them into the heavy weight division - and I suspect would make more build specs available for PvP entertainment. Alternatively, the weights could reflect a health bars mod, i.e, x1, x2, x3, at the cost of suitable reduction is base movement (or offer this trade off to all players prior to entry to the PvP queue - I think this is worth a season's experiment as it could be implemented via additional amulets). As long as Anet go for the High burst gameplay then PvP will be plagued by cheaters and be hostile to new players (2sec kills makes learning anything hopeless). Why not leave this choice to the players?

 

* Yes I know, l2p issue, but these types of kills 'feel' random and clearly the whole of PvP is designed around one thing and one thing only, and it's not skill it's dps burst!

 

[Felipe.1807]

Stop the support the game mode have? lol Which support you talking about? As someone allready said here, sPvP patches move at "glacial pace"...come on, how long took then to "fix" chorno? Months! That to just nerf a single skill lol Glorious "2.5" is taking years to be done(is not even a new model, just a freaking retex haha, this should take at best a week), while this we have constant gem store stuff been put(the outfit and scythe are pretty cool lol)...how many game modes did sPvP got in this 6 years of GW2? How many new maps? Now compare it with PvE lol...PvP on this game get close to zero support, you are fooling yourself if you think the devs take any time away from PvE to work on something for sPvP.

[Jacobin.8509]

The problem has always been conquest which no other PvP game uses as its primary competitive mode. Respawns is totally anti competitive as it kills the ability to have definitive fights and the constant standing in circles/capping kills the action and means you are relying on people to rotate and play the map when they would rather pvp.

 

If GW2 had an arena mode similar to Battlerite it would be a much better game.

[heroicfish.8243]

> @"TexZero.7910" said:

> Adding more funds won't fix the fundamental problems that are combat speed and clunky spectator UI.

> Even if they do, it wont fix this games "streaming" numbers in the slightest because only a minority of people are invested enough in PvP to watch the stream.

 

Funds could be allocated in any number of ways, such as fixing combat and UI. Personally though, from streams and videos I've watched, I don't see much difference from other game arenas which remain popular. More game-modes that don't include *stand on point and slap fish on rock* would be a good start, but who knows because other games with arena pvp are as basic as killing the other team first.. so combat could be a big focus as well.

 

> @"Arioch.4810" said:

> Population is not an issue:

> Type of players that remained in PvP - that is the issue.

> Khewra salt mines and PvP chat = same amount of salt.

> If you had 100 good sociable players, PvP would be in a good spot. Same faces each match? Maybe, but faces you don't mind seeing. Ideally, players you love playing with/against :)

> I would start by filtering chat logs for let's say last 3 month, then give some reward to each PvP-er that typed ggwp while being on a losing side at the end, each PvP-er that opened with glhf..you get the idea.

> Reduce amount of salt -> simple way to promote gametype.

 

Salt is pretty common, I see no reason it keeps PvPers from the game mode. Imbalance, lack of variety, and pay walls for elite specs is more likely. There must be other reasons, though, because generally salty whales love to come and pay to be the best, so something is keeping them away.

 

> @"lilypop.7819" said:

> PvP is a key part of GW2 because it keeps people with limited time in the game, it's problem is lack of creditability.

>

> There is a strong suspicion that the gameplay is not fair, that peeps are using hacks and/or key marcos, that balance is impossible because of the fog of cheating, that Anet is tolerant of cheaters. I also suspect that Anet's belief in high PvP burst dynamics is not as entertaining as they might think, rather that it encourages cheating. If cheating is PvP 1st failing, the high dependence on Burst, above all other considerations, is the second, imo. I am willing to bet that none of these other games have random 2 seconds kills as a gameplay feature*.

>

> Frankly I think they should redo the queuing to create 'boxing weights divisions' - light, middle, heavy weight etc - where burst damage is capped, for example 1k, 2K, 3K. This would be a big turn off for the cheaters - or push them into the heavy weight division - and I suspect would make more build specs available for PvP entertainment. Alternatively, the weights could reflect a health bars mod, i.e, x1, x2, x3, at the cost of suitable reduction is base movement (or offer this trade off to all players prior to entry to the PvP queue - I think this is worth a season's experiment as it could be implemented via additional amulets). As long as Anet go for the High burst gameplay then PvP will be plagued by cheaters and be hostile to new players (2sec kills makes learning anything hopeless). Why not leave this choice to the players?

>

> * Yes I know, l2p issue, but these types of kills 'feel' random and clearly the whole of PvP is designed around one thing and one thing only, and it's not skill it's dps burst!

>

 

Actually, BDO is awful for "random 2 second kills," yet still remains incredibly popular even with all of its glaring flaw. Lots of people can die in a single skill in RBF or world pvp, depending on the class and if they were caught without superarmor/block/iframe. I 100% agree with you that it's not fun, so this could definitely be why PvP is failing after 6 years. I'm kind of hoping they'll make a f2p elite spec sometime soon, to try and at least somewhat "balance" the distance between free players and those who've bought expansions. If anything, it could lead to more purchases when people want to experience other elite specs, but would also keep people from immediately leaving once they get the notion they're less powerful than those who've bought expansions. I don't feel like the elite specs could be the biggest thing keeping people away, though, because a large portion of players love to pay for an edge.

 

I still maintain, though, that it's a glaring problem with the game in no way reflecting its name. Having anything that would set players against eachother in the open world, particularly against each-others guilds, would definitely be a draw for players who've moved on to other games in search of that.

[BMW.2951]

> @"Chum Chum.7234" said:

> > @"BMW.2951" said:

> > > @"pah.4931" said:

> > > I kinda want a complete overhaul. Better balance / splits. More gamemodes. Team-q for ranked conquest with the best rewards, etc.

> > >

> > > I'd even pay for it. Right now, as mainly a PvP player, I have no incentive to buy gems because that money goes into supporting PvE while PvP languishes. And then their data will show PvPers don't buy gems, so they don't support PvP as much. It's vicious cycle!

> >

> > The ability to q with a full 5 man premade would break the game man. Why don't people realize this? How would you like to fight against 5 scourges? How about 5 mesmers? Wouldn't be fun would it? The system they have in place now is fine with only 2 people in a party.

> >

> > Also why would you want ANET to just let PvP go? Myself and a lot of players only enjoy PvP because I love being competitive and playing actual players. The PvP in this MMO is the best I have ever experience and I won't want them to just let it go.

>

> I refuse to believe that GW2 provides the best PvP anyone has experienced unless they've only played 1 or 2 MMOs ever. Granted, I moved from better PvP to GW2 because players in the better PvP games were exploiting weak matching systems. It is humorous in hindsight.

>

> I've also experienced significant issues with people running 3rd party apps, people exploiting the games use of their system with God mode like hacks, map exploits, people inflating rankings through alt accounts, DDOSing servers or star players when losing, etc. Most of these issues exist on GW2 as well though. Having experienced it in game after game, I've come to accept that losers are just going to cheat in life and online rankings mean absolutely nothing. It is extra humorous in GW2 though, as there isn't any real in-game reward. Cheaters can get the pip rewards faster I suppose, but the real carrot is a pointless title.

 

I have played 10+ mmos but good guess ;) Also cheating is part of any PC game, companies just need to do something about it. So sad that people need to cheat in a video game to "win" though. They are a jokkkkkkkkkkkkkkke

[Aeolus.3615]

Big problem in gw2 pvp is that is still made for pve players :D

[BMW.2951]

> @"JTGuevara.9018" said:

> > @"BMW.2951" said:

> > > @"pah.4931" said:

> > > I kinda want a complete overhaul. Better balance / splits. More gamemodes. Team-q for ranked conquest with the best rewards, etc.

> > >

> > > I'd even pay for it. Right now, as mainly a PvP player, I have no incentive to buy gems because that money goes into supporting PvE while PvP languishes. And then their data will show PvPers don't buy gems, so they don't support PvP as much. It's vicious cycle!

> >

> > The ability to q with a full 5 man premade would break the game man. Why don't people realize this? How would you like to fight against 5 scourges? How about 5 mesmers? Wouldn't be fun would it? The system they have in place now is fine with only 2 people in a party.

> >

> > Also why would you want ANET to just let PvP go? Myself and a lot of players only enjoy PvP because I love being competitive and playing actual players. The PvP in this MMO is the best I have ever experience and I won't want them to just let it go.

>

> So take care of the scourge problem. While doing that, put in 5-man. We can walk and chew gum at the same time. :P

>

> I mean, wvw is getting an overhaul...so why not pvp? We all literally have nothing to lose at this point.

>

>

 

Trust me. You and your team would be so sick of people abusing OP builds to completely stomp your premade team. It would't be fair at all.

[omgdracula.6345]

> @"Sunshine.5014" said:

> Unless they double down and hire a real balance team (like some one worked at Blizzard) and release a monthly balance patch, my humble opinion is that they should not spend more resources on this "PvP".

>

> They have way more debt on the skills/balance side than they realize. Even when Mesmer got nerfed, things are still not balance due to several other things (SB will be next..). They will have to constantly nerf stuff monthly for a year before they even get to an OK state.

 

You probably should not talk about balance if you reference blizzard as your go to for balance. All of their games are a complete joke balance wise rofl.

Overwatch is a good example .

 

Moira is a support but can literally carry a game in damage and eliminations while also maintaining gold healing. Has been out for months with 0 adjustments. Brigette albeit the newest hero can also do everything as well.

 

Junkrat is a key offender and a good example of blizzard not being able to address key issues. On the PTR they nerfed his projectile size and his RIP Tire ult traveling speed, but those aren't the issues with junkrat. Junkrat is "OP" because he can literally walk up to anyone and detonate his explosives and fire his auto attacks with 0 consequence.

 

Pharah and 76 can both die to their explosives but Junkrat cant(he used to but they removed it).

 

Reaper is another good example. While Reaper himself is in a decent spot, he is not played simply because why play Reaper when you have 76 and McCree? They buffed his wraith form, but then added in Brigette who can more or less full counter him.

 

Blizzard doesn't understand much about balance at all.

[Leodon.1564]

GW2 will never be eSports because it's fundamentally flawed.

 

ArenaNet is dumb because they went with a business model of "lets spend money to advertise our broken eSport mode" instead of "lets spend money to fix our eSport mode and the crowd/money will come".

 

They keep failing because they don't understand the root of their problems and they are hoping things will be better if they just copy ideas from other games and slap it onto GW2.

[Crab Fear.1624]

Conquest, and especially Ranked Conquest is the rough equivalent of Random Arenas (combined with some competitive mission) from Guild Wars 1. Random Arenas was never the main PVP mode. If you wanted glory is O GW you played in HA or GVG, RA was filler and full of players trying to "sync".

 

[Guild Wars 1 PVP Modes](https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Player_versus_Player "https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Player_versus_Player")

 

So many modes, and most required a team. I want to say "look, the population supported all of these modes" , but in GW2 having modes like these wouldn't be a huge draw on PVP, they would take away from PVE and WvW. GW1 didnt have this huge open world, it was all instanced.

[EdgasXE.2049]

Time when I enjoyed PvP the most was when it was up to 10vs10 hotjoin, no ratings, no long ques, constant action, no metas, play what you want, even tanky builds could get zerged because of 10vs10. Ahh the times, now one guy afk and whole game blobs.

[Kako.1930]

> @"EdgasXE.2049" said:

> Time when I enjoyed PvP the most was when it was up to 10vs10 hotjoin, no ratings, no long ques, constant action, no metas, play what you want, even tanky builds could get zerged because of 10vs10. Ahh the times, now one guy afk and whole game blobs.

 

Not gonna lie, 10v10 hotjoin was pretty fun with the old maps and specs. Very nostalgic. Idk if it would be as fun with all the elite specs though.

[pah.4931]

> @"EdgasXE.2049" said:

> Time when I enjoyed PvP the most was when it was up to 10vs10 hotjoin, no ratings, no long ques, constant action, no metas, play what you want, even tanky builds could get zerged because of 10vs10. Ahh the times, now one guy afk and whole game blobs.

 

That is one of the biggest issues with a random-q ranked system with 5v5 teams. Too small. It's a mode made for premades then they removed premades.