The reasons behind Balthazar's actions

[Fundor.2098]

I'm kind of hoping this will still be relevant in the future and thus cannot be answered, but here it goes! :D

 

After everything Balthazar has done for Tyria, WHY was he so hellbent on battling the Elder Dragons, he didn't care about cutting ties with the other gods or destroying Tyria in the process?

The storysteps explaining how he turned on the other gods, was stripped of his status and why the gods could not intervene are definitely the best in the game at the moment, seriously – pure quality, but despite us getting an answer to _how_ he turned his back to everyone, we are still left asking _why_ would he do that, when five other gods – one of them being the Goddes of Truth – are telling him Tyria simply won't survive it.

 

I've thought a possible answer could be that some of his aspects of godhood, war and conflict, were driving him against his better judgement, but somehow it feels unsatisfying, as he very much kept himself from intervening the events of Nightfall.

[Cregath.7628]

I'm pretty sure the only real reason is just that. He is the God of War. He wants to be in a War. He wants people to War.

There is also the matter that (to my knowledge) the conflict between him and the other Gods happened during GW1. So that means he was pretty much inprisoned, unable to act or move in the Mists for a few hundred years. If you lock anyone up with their thoughts and nothing else for an extended period of time, then they will cling to something and will be obsessed with it. Maybe, if the Gods didn't stop him back then, we might've had a pretty dark war against the Elder Dragons, but would've still survived it.

[LinseyMurdock.4165]

I'd rather not put too fine a point on the motivations of gods, but I think that when we think about the human gods, it's important to consider their actions just as much as their words. Sometimes we (the human population) focus a lot of the way the gods present themselves to us, but their actions (as is oft true of people) speak to their true nature. I think Balthazar was following his true nature as the god of war. I also think he was wrong to do what he did and it led to his downfall. The gods have certainly proven themselves to be fallible and in some cases, can be extremely self-serving and short-sighted. Ours is a world with fallen gods.

[narwhalsbend.7059]

>The reasons behind Balthazar's actions

Screw the older players, this is cartoony and dumb enough that new players will think its cool when we re-write him as a comic book villain.

[Ephemiel.5694]

> @"LinseyMurdock.4165" said:

> I'd rather not put too fine a point on the motivations of gods, but I think that when we think about the human gods, it's important to consider their actions just as much as their words. Sometimes we (the human population) focus a lot of the way the gods present themselves to us, but their actions (as is oft true of people) speak to their true nature. I think Balthazar was following his true nature as the god of war. I also think he was wrong to do what he did and it led to his downfall. The gods have certainly proven themselves to be fallible and in some cases, can be extremely self-serving and short-sighted. Ours is a world with fallen gods.

 

That kinda reminds me of what the game's lore was supposed to be. I remember reading that one of the original drafts for GW2's story was with angels, gods and demons judging us.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

> @"LinseyMurdock.4165" said:

>Balthazar was following his true nature as the god of war.

 

This kind of feels like a weak reason, to be honest. And it's no different than saying "he's a god of war therefore he must be evil".

 

As you say, the gods have proven to be fallible, but at the same time they've also proven to far more than simple ideals and representations, unlike the Elder Dragons. It's part of what makes Abaddon one of Guild Wars' best villains. He was more of "he was following his nature as the god of secrets" because, quite frankly, he was defying that notion by wanting to spread knowledge and power.

 

It feels like Dhuum and Balthazar (especially Dhuum) got dumbed down to be nothing more than a title, ignoring everything that GW1 had built up about them, with exception of a few lines in Balthazar's case. Not very different than how most players view the Elder Dragons to be, and that's simply put not an interesting story to be told.

[Sojourner.4621]

> @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> > @"LinseyMurdock.4165" said:

> >Balthazar was following his true nature as the god of war.

>

> This kind of feels like a weak reason, to be honest. And it's no different than saying "he's a god of war therefore he must be evil".

>

> As you say, the gods have proven to be fallible, but at the same time they've also proven to far more than simple ideals and representations, unlike the Elder Dragons. It's part of what makes Abaddon one of Guild Wars' best villains. He was more of "he was following his nature as the god of secrets" because, quite frankly, he was defying that notion by wanting to spread knowledge and power.

>

> It feels like Dhuum and Balthazar (especially Dhuum) got dumbed down to be nothing more than a title, no different than how most players view the Elder Dragons to be, and that's simply put not an interesting story to be told.

 

You're mistaking the cause and effect. Balthazar was following his nature **originally** when he decided he was going to help the humans go to war with the Elder Dragons despite the other gods voting against the idea. The gods felt that this would be a mistake, leading to another Abaddon and Crystal desert type situation and stripped him of his powers. To this point Balthazar had not been strictly self-serving and evil, merely misguided. By stripping him of his power and exiling and chaining him within the mists, the gods proved they too were short-sighted by creating the very vessel of rage and vengeance that they were trying to prevent by doing this in the first place. THAT is what caused Balthazar to curse the other gods and lead his crusade, no matter what cost.

[Ubi.4136]

I think you guys are putting too much into this.

 

First, none of them are gods, they are just aliens who happen to have a pet race, humans.

 

Second, it's more like "aliens moved to a new world and made their pets (who adore them endlessly) a nice playground (at the expense of other native races).

Of course they did some nice things for their pets, idol worship and all was real (I'll keep it PG-13, but early on it was probably like teen girls at a rock concert in the

80's for Balthazaar).

 

Third, after a while, like a kid playing with ants in the backyard, you just get bored or tired of their crap. Sure, they did some nice things for you early on, but later, they care about as much for you as any kid would playing with ants in the backyard. And, as they seem to have extended lives (immortal possibly?) that's a lot of whining and crap to put up with over the centuries. So, when the going gets rough, the tough get going. Leaving you humans behind like people and their family pets fleeing a

hurricane (tied you to a tree out back, and wished you best of luck).

 

I'm sure there could be some interesting story about how Balthazaar ended up in the Mists, but as far as how the "aliens" decided to abandon some random pets (most of whom don't "worship" them anymore) the story is "nothing to see here, move along".

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

> @"Sojourner.4621" said:

 

But his crusade itself was him following "his nature" of being god of war. He wanted war and was denied it, so he caused war but on a different target.

 

What's his motivations? His aspirations? War.

 

What's his course of action? War.

 

What's his method to get around being denied his goals? War.

 

Balthazar, as presented in Path of Fire, is very flat. He lost everything that made him an actual individual despite never even speaking in GW1. From the teachings of honor hating deception, to defending the innocents and the world, to even his more brutal side of hunting down enemies and ensuring they're defeated.

 

There was a possibility of hidden motivations beyond, to quote Balthazar, "I AM CONFLICT!" but apparently not. It now feels like even Zhaitan had more dimensions than Balthazar.

[LinseyMurdock.4165]

> @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> > @"Sojourner.4621" said:

>

> But his crusade itself was him following "his nature" of being god of war. He wanted war and was denied it, so he caused war but on a different target.

>

> What's his motivations? His aspirations? War.

>

> What's his course of action? War.

>

> What's his method to get around being denied his goals? War.

>

> Balthazar, as presented in Path of Fire, is very flat. He lost everything that made him an actual individual despite never even speaking in GW1. From the teachings of honor hating deception, to defending the innocents and the world, to even his more brutal side of hunting down enemies and ensuring they're defeated.

>

> There was a possibility of hidden motivations beyond, to quote Balthazar, "I AM CONFLICT!" but apparently not. It now feels like even Zhaitan had more dimensions than Balthazar.

 

Oh, I'm sorry Konig, I didn't mean to give you the impression that his motives are one dimensional. I didn't even touch on his motives, honestly. I'm just saying that his nature lead to the way he tried to address his problem, which doesn't exactly speak to motive at all. There is a great deal about the gods that has still not been revealed and it goes a whole lot deeper than "the god of war likes war".

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

> @"LinseyMurdock.4165" said:

> There is a great deal about the gods that has still not been revealed and it goes a whole lot deeper than "the god of war likes war".

 

Well I hope we get towards that sooner rather than later. The Elder Dragons are one dimensional enough that we don't need the gods to be as well.

 

Though I must say that if there's anything more to Balthazar's story than the whole "Lack of Lyssa cursing" thing, the time has come and gone and that is something that really should have been part of the expansion no ands ifs or buts about it, and not including the main villain's motivations into the story is a pretty prime example of "bad story writing".

[Ashantara.8731]

> @"Fundor.2098" said:

> After everything Balthazar has done for Tyria, WHY was he so hellbent on battling the Elder Dragons, he didn't care about cutting ties with the other gods or destroying Tyria in the process?

 

He did no longer care about Tyria or his worshippers. He wanted to accumulate as much magic as possible to become stronger than the other Gods and have his revenge on them for being chained up abandoned in the Mists. He had grown too power hungry and didn't accept any other power beside the divine (and as we know, the dragons' power is a real competition to that).

 

I'd say he had grown insane, a real megalomaniac.

 

Still think that was one of the worst plots/story-telling in LWS 3. Fortunately, it got much better in PoF, and much was explained along the lines. The story instance in Kormir's Library was one of the best in the whole game.

[Randulf.7614]

> @"LinseyMurdock.4165" said:

> > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> > > @"Sojourner.4621" said:

> >

> > But his crusade itself was him following "his nature" of being god of war. He wanted war and was denied it, so he caused war but on a different target.

> >

> > What's his motivations? His aspirations? War.

> >

> > What's his course of action? War.

> >

> > What's his method to get around being denied his goals? War.

> >

> > Balthazar, as presented in Path of Fire, is very flat. He lost everything that made him an actual individual despite never even speaking in GW1. From the teachings of honor hating deception, to defending the innocents and the world, to even his more brutal side of hunting down enemies and ensuring they're defeated.

> >

> > There was a possibility of hidden motivations beyond, to quote Balthazar, "I AM CONFLICT!" but apparently not. It now feels like even Zhaitan had more dimensions than Balthazar.

>

> Oh, I'm sorry Konig, I didn't mean to give you the impression that his motives are one dimensional. I didn't even touch on his motives, honestly. I'm just saying that his nature lead to the way he tried to address his problem, which doesn't exactly speak to motive at all. There is a great deal about the gods that has still not been revealed and it goes a whole lot deeper than "the god of war likes war".

 

Surely though if his motives weren't elaborated fully within the expansion, the time has now gone for it to be relevant again. If I was to feedback one particular area that needs improvement is that there is still work to be done on rounding off lore explanations within the relevant story arc and not leaving them loose for later. GW2 has a great deal of loose, answered ends for "later" when tighetning things up would actually result in a more satisfying narrative overall.

 

PoF certainly did it better than previous arcs mind you and LS4 is off to a cracking start, but I hope and expect LS4 to leave virtually nothing outstanding beyind the lead in to the next expac, which in turn should be fully, clearly fleshed out and tied off neatly, without the 'but why's' that we are becoming used to due

[Justine.6351]

It's kind of in his scriptures. He hates cowardness and not fighting the dragons ate at him and corrupted his ability to think about more than just destroying them. The other Gods did it wrong by just banishing him and hoping it would go away. That didn't work for abaddon. They should have found a way to support tyria more directly, especially kormir of all gods.

[Fundor.2098]

> @"LinseyMurdock.4165" said:

> I'd rather not put too fine a point on the motivations of gods, but I think that when we think about the human gods, it's important to consider their actions just as much as their words. Sometimes we (the human population) focus a lot of the way the gods present themselves to us, but their actions (as is oft true of people) speak to their true nature. I think Balthazar was following his true nature as the god of war. I also think he was wrong to do what he did and it led to his downfall. The gods have certainly proven themselves to be fallible and in some cases, can be extremely self-serving and short-sighted. Ours is a world with fallen gods.

 

> @"LinseyMurdock.4165" said:

> > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> > > @"Sojourner.4621" said:

> >

> > But his crusade itself was him following "his nature" of being god of war. He wanted war and was denied it, so he caused war but on a different target.

> >

> > What's his motivations? His aspirations? War.

> >

> > What's his course of action? War.

> >

> > What's his method to get around being denied his goals? War.

> >

> > Balthazar, as presented in Path of Fire, is very flat. He lost everything that made him an actual individual despite never even speaking in GW1. From the teachings of honor hating deception, to defending the innocents and the world, to even his more brutal side of hunting down enemies and ensuring they're defeated.

> >

> > There was a possibility of hidden motivations beyond, to quote Balthazar, "I AM CONFLICT!" but apparently not. It now feels like even Zhaitan had more dimensions than Balthazar.

>

> Oh, I'm sorry Konig, I didn't mean to give you the impression that his motives are one dimensional. I didn't even touch on his motives, honestly. I'm just saying that his nature lead to the way he tried to address his problem, which doesn't exactly speak to motive at all. There is a great deal about the gods that has still not been revealed and it goes a whole lot deeper than "the god of war likes war".

 

Thank you for your replies, Linsey. :)

I like the idea of Balthazar's nature as the god of war ending up in too aggressive self-expression the other gods saw too dangerous and unbalanced, taken the risks of the situation. We'll be eagerly waiting for more things revealed! :)

[Jessica Price.1649]

Being extremely powerful and having access to a lot of secret knowledge tends to result in hubris.

[Rajani Isa.6294]

> @"Ubi.4136" said:

> I'm sure there could be some interesting story about how Balthazaar ended up in the Mists

 

The story explains it actually.

 

As a God of War, Balthazaar's nature is more physically confrontational. The dragons were threatening Tyria, and he wanted to end that threat. Specifically by ending them. The other gods - recalling the Fall of Abaddon and such - how Kormir came to be a god as well as the damage to the world that accompanied it - didn't want that style of solution. So to stop him, the beat him, stole his power, and sealed him in the mists.

 

Then Rytlock got lost.

 

[Icewolfnector.1487]

> @"LinseyMurdock.4165" said:

>There is a great deal about the gods that has still not been revealed and it goes a whole lot deeper than "the god of war likes war".

 

Well, I'm glad there is still more to be said about the gods in this game's future. While stories with such enigmatic and mighty beings are hard to get right, I always quite liked them in the past. To be honest I was fearing they would be totally out of the picture, looking for a new home for humankind. Or what every they are doing out there in the mists.

 

[Athrenn.9468]

Every story is driven by a theme. "This is the deep meaning of an author's work," says authors Randy Ingermanson and Peter Economy, "the central message they're trying to get across to their reader. It may be "the moral of the story," if they wrote their story to have a moral. It may be their own vision of how the world works, their philosophy on life, or their recipe for the perfect brownie. An author's theme is whatever they want it to be." "Art has meaning," they say, "just as food has flavor," and that is just a basic fact of fiction.

 

I believe that Balthazar's return arc marks a shift in the theme of Guild Wars from one of ambiguity over the question of "what is a god" to a story that blatantly states: "But, are they gods? I [Xakk] say no. They are what we would all become if given the amount of magical energy they possess and allowed to live as long as they appear to have." Like it or not, the voice of this asura seems to capture that of the writers as well.

 

What is a god, according to the game writers, other than a mortal with extraordinary power? You could call them a level 99 wizard who has gained immortality and unimaginable amounts of power and you would appear to be correct. What is religion in Tyria, then—the question necessarily follows—other than the worship of extreme power? These are the central themes that Guild Wars 2 has decided to embrace. Sadly, there is no place for theism in a world where all gods are merely actors playing the part.

 

What saddens me most about this change in direction is that it runs starkly against the themes embraced by most of Guild Wars 1. These were stories with deep roots in Greco-Roman antiquity and the polytheistic fantasy world of Kryta, Ascalon, and Orr, providing a glimpse into what the world might have been like if the ancients were right and the gods truly were beings of unknowable yet benevolent purpose—such was the basis of Cicero's theory of natural law as outlined in his [De Legibus (On the Laws)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Legibus "De Legibus (On the Laws)").

 

Guild Wars 2 has become, in my opinion, a work of science fiction that wears the trappings of fantasy after the fashion of Gene Wolfe's _Book of the New Sun_ where 'magic' is really just advanced particle physics affected by genetically inherited mutations and those who worship any form of higher power are invariably fooling themselves. In short, the message has shifted away from "polytheism has merit" to "theism (within the world of Tyria) is a lie."

 

Before you get me wrong, let it be known that I have nothing against this theme in other works of fiction. I love science fiction and I love settings where valiant mortals battle against aliens pretending to be gods. (It worked for Stargate SG-1 after all). What I don't like is having the sequel to a successful story world dramatically change its theme, therefore nullifying its original meaning and replacing it with something that runs directly counter to what it once stood for.

 

At least one of the major themes of this new rendition of the story has been made clear in this thread: "Being extremely powerful and having access to a lot of secret knowledge tends to result in hubris." That seems to be the message of this game's story world, and if you agree, then that's great for you. If you don't? It seems like you might be out of luck.

[Arden.7480]

> @"LinseyMurdock.4165" said:

> I'd rather not put too fine a point on the motivations of gods, but I think that when we think about the human gods, it's important to consider their actions just as much as their words. Sometimes we (the human population) focus a lot of the way the gods present themselves to us, but their actions (as is oft true of people) speak to their true nature. I think Balthazar was following his true nature as the god of war. I also think he was wrong to do what he did and it led to his downfall. The gods have certainly proven themselves to be fallible and in some cases, can be extremely self-serving and short-sighted. Ours is a world with fallen gods.

 

Yes, I can see that (I made some posts saying that), but why you wrote him so stubborn? I mean he was the god that was praised, people loved him for who he was, they understood him. Even villains have hearts, so making him keep looking like: "KILL KILL KILL, DIE DIE DIE, EAT MAGIC EAT MAGIC EAT MAGIC" was so empty.

 

Also in "Facing the Truth" we could see a holo of Balthazar, what was very disappointing to me was that we couldn't see other gods reacting, the TRUEST behind the scenes. Why couldn't we see Melandru, Greth etc holograms? Seeing for example Melandru saying: Balthazar, please stop it. Or Lyssa: Please listen to your reason; would make this whole situation around Balthazar more lively.

 

Also (moving far away from the topic) why couldn't we for this whole time for many ages go to the Tomb of Primeval Kings and ask them (the spirits of kings) for the portal to the Mists? Why couldn't GW2 start with a blur vision of killing the dragons, not mentioning that this will turn badly?

 

It was kind of weird that there was the portal to contact with the gods, and suddenly Kasmeer came up and said: Oh guys, there is a portal to the Mists, let's go!

 

It felt like: What? So there was the portal where we can ask the gods and meet them?!

 

That what Kas said anyway: _I think we should go to the gods and ask them ourselves._

 

That is the most ridiculous line in this game! Why couldn't we do it years ago? People were starting to deny gods, thinking that they don't care at all, and there was freaking portal to the gods? :O

 

Thanks for reading. :)

[Eekasqueak.7850]

Honestly I'm glad for the shift way from the theism of the first game. It's something countless settings have already done into the ground and GW2 being more of a sci fantasy setting is one of the reasons I like it so much. > @"Athrenn.9468" said:

> Every story is driven by a theme. "This is the deep meaning of an author's work," says authors Randy Ingermanson and Peter Economy, "the central message they're trying to get across to their reader. It may be "the moral of the story," if they wrote their story to have a moral. It may be their own vision of how the world works, their philosophy on life, or their recipe for the perfect brownie. An author's theme is whatever they want it to be." "Art has meaning," they say, "just as food has flavor," and that is just a basic fact of fiction.

>

> I believe that Balthazar's return arc marks a shift in the theme of Guild Wars from one of ambiguity over the question of "what is a god" to a story that blatantly states: "But, are they gods? I [Xakk] say no. They are what we would all become if given the amount of magical energy they possess and allowed to live as long as they appear to have." Like it or not, the voice of this asura seems to capture that of the writers as well.

>

> What is a god, according to the game writers, other than a mortal with extraordinary power? You could call them a level 99 wizard who has gained immortality and unimaginable amounts of power and you would appear to be correct. What is religion in Tyria, then—the question necessarily follows—other than the worship of extreme power? These are the central themes that Guild Wars 2 has decided to embrace. Sadly, there is no place for theism in a world where all gods are merely actors playing the part.

>

> What saddens me most about this change in direction is that it runs starkly against the themes embraced by most of Guild Wars 1. These were stories with deep roots in Greco-Roman antiquity and the polytheistic fantasy world of Kryta, Ascalon, and Orr, providing a glimpse into what the world might have been like if the ancients were right and the gods truly were beings of unknowable yet benevolent purpose—such was the basis of Cicero's theory of natural law as outlined in his [De Legibus (On the Laws)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Legibus "De Legibus (On the Laws)").

>

> Guild Wars 2 has become, in my opinion, a work of science fiction that wears the trappings of fantasy after the fashion of Gene Wolfe's _Book of the New Sun_ where 'magic' is really just advanced particle physics affected by genetically inherited mutations and those who worship any form of higher power are invariably fooling themselves. In short, the message has shifted away from "polytheism has merit" to "theism (within the world of Tyria) is a lie."

>

> Before you get me wrong, let it be known that I have nothing against this theme in other works of fiction. I love science fiction and I love settings where valiant mortals battle against aliens pretending to be gods. (It worked for Stargate SG-1 after all). What I don't like is having the sequel to a successful story world dramatically change its theme, therefore nullifying its original meaning and replacing it with something that runs directly counter to what it once stood for.

>

> At least one of the major themes of this new rendition of the story has been made clear in this thread: "Being extremely powerful and having access to a lot of secret knowledge tends to result in hubris." That seems to be the message of this game's story world, and if you agree, then that's great for you. If you don't? It seems like you might be out of luck.

 

 

[Fundor.2098]

> @"Arden.7480" said:

 

> It was kind of weird that there was the portal to contact with the gods, and suddenly Kasmeer came up and said: Oh guys, there is a portal to the Mists, let's go!

>

> It felt like: What? So there was the portal where we can ask the gods and meet them?!

>

> That what Kas said anyway: _I think we should go to the gods and ask them ourselves._

>

> That is the most ridiculous line in this game! Why couldn't we do it years ago? People were starting to deny gods, thinking that they don't care at all, and there was freaking portal to the gods? :O

>

> Thanks for reading. :)

 

The portal has been there for ages and it wasn't that much of a secret, we even used it during the the times of Guild Wars 1, but for a long time it was right next to Kralkatorrik the Elder Dragon, who only lately flew further into Elona. :)

Why it wasn't used before Kralkatorrik's awakening might be explained by the remote and dangerous location: Even without the branded swarming the place, the desert is a dangerous place only a few dared to adventure to, and even fewer survived. And then there was Joko and his awakened, who angered the spirits guarding the Tombs.

Not quite anyone could have actually reached the portal, let alone survived the Mists to reach the gods. Our trip through the Mists themselves was a surprisingly safe one.