Drarnor Kunoram.5180 Posted April 29, 2018 Share Posted April 29, 2018 > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > @"HeadCrowned.6834" said: > > My concern with scourges is that they're so over the top AoE orientated that it makes a lot of other classes/builds useless in conquest game mode. > > Not just that but builds too... > > D/D elementalist is my favourite but melee is extremely hard countered by Scourge.... > What actually really pisses me off the most though is Diamond skin and Necro players... > > Necros: "Change Diamond skin because it hard counters Rabid Amulet" > Anet changes Diamond skin > Everyone: "Scourge hard counters melee builds" > Necros: "That's fine and balanced, git gud and l2play" > Major difference there: Diamond Skin at the time didn't hard counter rabid amulet. It was completely invincible to condition Necro. It was mathematically impossible to actually kill an ele with Diamond Skin AFKing in water attunement (with just soothing mist) as a condition necro. Scourge is a strong counter to melee builds, but it's always been able to be killed by them. There it's a matter of one killing the other first, not being completely non-interactive. The second is far healthier for the game, even if you personally don't like it. > @"JTGuevara.9018" said: > > @"Drarnor Kunoram.5180" said: > > > @"JTGuevara.9018" said: > > > lmao Look at all the defenses of scourge on here. I just don't see how people are even defending this class. > > > > > > Ok! From a conceptual standpoint when applied in pvp, scourge is fundamentally _broken_. Their AoEs are larger than the capture point! Plus they are instant. Their condition damage and sustain is absolutely ridiculous. Considering the nature of the game of conquest, there is simply no counterplay for all of those things _as a team_. conquest pvp is tailor-made for the scourge. This is the problem with AoE heavy classes. They're always going to have an advantage. You know there _is_ a reason why I see an average of 2 scourges per game, both on the player's and the opposing teams. > > > > What you're talking about isn't an issue with Scourge, it's an issue with one trait: Sand Savant. > > HA! Yeah right! It's not just one little trait. The ENTIRE spec is a conceptual problem with respect to conquest. Yes, the design that lets them entirely cover a point with 100% uptime! Wait...that's completely from Sand Savant. Without it, they don't have anything close to that coverage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sephiroth.4217 Posted April 29, 2018 Share Posted April 29, 2018 > @"Drarnor Kunoram.5180" said: > > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > > @"HeadCrowned.6834" said: > > > My concern with scourges is that they're so over the top AoE orientated that it makes a lot of other classes/builds useless in conquest game mode. > > > > Not just that but builds too... > > > > D/D elementalist is my favourite but melee is extremely hard countered by Scourge.... > > What actually really pisses me off the most though is Diamond skin and Necro players... > > > > Necros: "Change Diamond skin because it hard counters Rabid Amulet" > > Anet changes Diamond skin > > Everyone: "Scourge hard counters melee builds" > > Necros: "That's fine and balanced, git gud and l2play" > > > > Major difference there: Diamond Skin at the time didn't hard counter rabid amulet. It was completely invincible to condition Necro. It was mathematically impossible to actually kill an ele with Diamond Skin AFKing in water attunement (with just soothing mist) as a condition necro. > > Scourge is a strong counter to melee builds, but it's always been able to be killed by them. There it's a matter of one killing the other first, not being completely non-interactive. The second is far healthier for the game, even if you personally don't like it. > > > @"JTGuevara.9018" said: > > > @"Drarnor Kunoram.5180" said: > > > > @"JTGuevara.9018" said: > > > > lmao Look at all the defenses of scourge on here. I just don't see how people are even defending this class. > > > > > > > > Ok! From a conceptual standpoint when applied in pvp, scourge is fundamentally _broken_. Their AoEs are larger than the capture point! Plus they are instant. Their condition damage and sustain is absolutely ridiculous. Considering the nature of the game of conquest, there is simply no counterplay for all of those things _as a team_. conquest pvp is tailor-made for the scourge. This is the problem with AoE heavy classes. They're always going to have an advantage. You know there _is_ a reason why I see an average of 2 scourges per game, both on the player's and the opposing teams. > > > > > > What you're talking about isn't an issue with Scourge, it's an issue with one trait: Sand Savant. > > > > HA! Yeah right! It's not just one little trait. The ENTIRE spec is a conceptual problem with respect to conquest. > > Yes, the design that lets them entirely cover a point with 100% uptime! Wait...that's completely from Sand Savant. Without it, they don't have anything close to that coverage. They also removed Rabid amulet which meant diamond skin wasn't hard countering anything but bad players. And even when Rabid ammy was in the game, it was still only countering bad Necros who insisted on 1v1 the ele and those who refused to take carrion or change the build a little... It was changed bcause of 1 build, but its fine that scourge counters all classes using melee? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aktium.9506 Posted April 29, 2018 Share Posted April 29, 2018 > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > They also removed Rabid amulet which meant diamond skin wasn't hard countering anything but bad players. > > And even when Rabid ammy was in the game m8 rabid is still in the game Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drarnor Kunoram.5180 Posted April 29, 2018 Share Posted April 29, 2018 > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > @"Drarnor Kunoram.5180" said: > > > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > > > @"HeadCrowned.6834" said: > > > > My concern with scourges is that they're so over the top AoE orientated that it makes a lot of other classes/builds useless in conquest game mode. > > > > > > Not just that but builds too... > > > > > > D/D elementalist is my favourite but melee is extremely hard countered by Scourge.... > > > What actually really pisses me off the most though is Diamond skin and Necro players... > > > > > > Necros: "Change Diamond skin because it hard counters Rabid Amulet" > > > Anet changes Diamond skin > > > Everyone: "Scourge hard counters melee builds" > > > Necros: "That's fine and balanced, git gud and l2play" > > > > > > > Major difference there: Diamond Skin at the time didn't hard counter rabid amulet. It was completely invincible to condition Necro. It was mathematically impossible to actually kill an ele with Diamond Skin AFKing in water attunement (with just soothing mist) as a condition necro. > > > > Scourge is a strong counter to melee builds, but it's always been able to be killed by them. There it's a matter of one killing the other first, not being completely non-interactive. The second is far healthier for the game, even if you personally don't like it. > > > > > @"JTGuevara.9018" said: > > > > @"Drarnor Kunoram.5180" said: > > > > > @"JTGuevara.9018" said: > > > > > lmao Look at all the defenses of scourge on here. I just don't see how people are even defending this class. > > > > > > > > > > Ok! From a conceptual standpoint when applied in pvp, scourge is fundamentally _broken_. Their AoEs are larger than the capture point! Plus they are instant. Their condition damage and sustain is absolutely ridiculous. Considering the nature of the game of conquest, there is simply no counterplay for all of those things _as a team_. conquest pvp is tailor-made for the scourge. This is the problem with AoE heavy classes. They're always going to have an advantage. You know there _is_ a reason why I see an average of 2 scourges per game, both on the player's and the opposing teams. > > > > > > > > What you're talking about isn't an issue with Scourge, it's an issue with one trait: Sand Savant. > > > > > > HA! Yeah right! It's not just one little trait. The ENTIRE spec is a conceptual problem with respect to conquest. > > > > Yes, the design that lets them entirely cover a point with 100% uptime! Wait...that's completely from Sand Savant. Without it, they don't have anything close to that coverage. > > They also removed Rabid amulet which meant diamond skin wasn't hard countering anything but bad players. > > And even when Rabid ammy was in the game, it was still only countering bad Necros who insisted on 1v1 the ele and those who refused to take carrion or change the build a little... It was changed bcause of 1 build, but its fine that scourge counters all classes using melee? Rabid amulet is still in the game. Hasn't been touched, even. Carrion builds likewise had a difficult time getting through that threshold on an AFK ele, because power coefficients on Necro condition builds are terrible. I calculated it at one point and it would take 7 Life Blasts from Carrion Necro to actually break Diamond Skin on an Ele that was only standing there auto-attacking. To say that's unreasonable to expect happening in an actual fight is an understatement. Scourge could be bursted by melee builds at PoF launch. Now you have even longer windows to do so. Again, one class killing the other faster is much healthier for the game than one class getting to completely ignore another. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aenaos.8160 Posted April 29, 2018 Share Posted April 29, 2018 Although I won't argue that the core mechanic of Scourge is as anti skilled PvP as it gets,there are ways to improve the class and bring it closer to it's intended role as a support oriented variant of Necromancer,and increase its fun to play with/against factor,without completely redesigning the class. -Make Manifest Sand Shade corrupt only defensive/sustain boons(Regeneration,Protection,Resistance,etc) -Make Punishment abilities corrupt only offensive/utility boons(Might/Quickness/Fury,etc) -Reduce the maximum count of Manifest Sand Shade with the Sand Savant trait,to 2(from 3). -Remove the Barrier function from Desert Shroud,and make it a pure damage ability,give it a AoE blind application on the first pulse. -Double the Barrier application of Sand Cascade and increase its Life Force cost to the same amount as Desert Shroud.Give it a few seconds of AoE Regeneration and Stability application. -Lock the radius of the player Shade to 180. Those few changes imo would go a long way into making the class more fun,as the player now has to manage Life Force and balance its use between support and offence,and also moves the class away from it's current state of "1 button does it all". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vagrant.7206 Posted April 29, 2018 Share Posted April 29, 2018 > @"HeadCrowned.6834" said: > My concern with scourges is that they're so over the top AoE orientated that it makes a lot of other classes/builds useless in conquest game mode. They also render most other condi builds irrelevant in PvP. Plague signet, AWAAAAAAAAAAYYYYY! The only other condi build I see in PvP right now on any semi-regular basis is mirage, and that's not that popular either. Everyone has had to design their builds around scourge condi, that's how powerful it is. The net result is that any other condi build is just a complete joke in this meta. > @"Aktium.9506" said: > > @"Drarnor Kunoram.5180" said: > > What you're talking about isn't an issue with Scourge, it's an issue with one trait: Sand Savant. > What makes this sad is that lots of people told Anet that the trait was going to be mandatory in PvP back in PoF beta and that they should either remove it completely or baseline and rebalance shades with the new size in mind. In retrospect, the latter option would have been terrible. But still, it was brought up. > > As it is right now Scourge will feel oppressive and overpowered as long as shades do anything at all because of how utterly huge a 300 radius 100% uptime AoE actually is. You would have to gut shade skills until they are very nearly useless for them to not be problematic with Sand Savant. > > That's not the only problem with Sand Savant. Because in ANet's infinite wisdom, they also made scourge their own shade, the awfulness of sand savant is doubled. Scourge wouldn't be nearly as much of a problem if they weren't their own shades too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTGuevara.9018 Posted April 29, 2018 Share Posted April 29, 2018 > @"Drarnor Kunoram.5180" said: > > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > > @"HeadCrowned.6834" said: > > > My concern with scourges is that they're so over the top AoE orientated that it makes a lot of other classes/builds useless in conquest game mode. > > > > Not just that but builds too... > > > > D/D elementalist is my favourite but melee is extremely hard countered by Scourge.... > > What actually really pisses me off the most though is Diamond skin and Necro players... > > > > Necros: "Change Diamond skin because it hard counters Rabid Amulet" > > Anet changes Diamond skin > > Everyone: "Scourge hard counters melee builds" > > Necros: "That's fine and balanced, git gud and l2play" > > > > Major difference there: Diamond Skin at the time didn't hard counter rabid amulet. It was completely invincible to condition Necro. It was mathematically impossible to actually kill an ele with Diamond Skin AFKing in water attunement (with just soothing mist) as a condition necro. > > Scourge is a strong counter to melee builds, but it's always been able to be killed by them. There it's a matter of one killing the other first, not being completely non-interactive. The second is far healthier for the game, even if you personally don't like it. > > > @"JTGuevara.9018" said: > > > @"Drarnor Kunoram.5180" said: > > > > @"JTGuevara.9018" said: > > > > lmao Look at all the defenses of scourge on here. I just don't see how people are even defending this class. > > > > > > > > Ok! From a conceptual standpoint when applied in pvp, scourge is fundamentally _broken_. Their AoEs are larger than the capture point! Plus they are instant. Their condition damage and sustain is absolutely ridiculous. Considering the nature of the game of conquest, there is simply no counterplay for all of those things _as a team_. conquest pvp is tailor-made for the scourge. This is the problem with AoE heavy classes. They're always going to have an advantage. You know there _is_ a reason why I see an average of 2 scourges per game, both on the player's and the opposing teams. > > > > > > What you're talking about isn't an issue with Scourge, it's an issue with one trait: Sand Savant. > > > > HA! Yeah right! It's not just one little trait. The ENTIRE spec is a conceptual problem with respect to conquest. > > Yes, the design that lets them entirely cover a point with 100% uptime! Wait...that's completely from Sand Savant. Without it, they don't have anything close to that coverage. Sand Savant or not. It doesnt matter. Scourge is broken, end of story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vague Memory.2817 Posted April 29, 2018 Share Posted April 29, 2018 All Anet have to do find out which elites are broken is look at how the class population changes after they add new elite specs. Currently almost every game I play (literally) there are 2 necros and 2 mirages on each team. The fact MM can't compose matches without adding 2 of each means these are the two top played elites specs at the moment. Why? Because they are easy mode, you can jump on them and not knowing how to play the class and reap high reward for little effort. Good for PvP achievements, not so good for PvP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Les.4872 Posted April 29, 2018 Share Posted April 29, 2018 > @"Meteor.3720" said: > > @"Chum Chum.7234" said: > > > @"Meteor.3720" said: > > > > @"Chum Chum.7234" said: > > > > I'm rather shocked that people are still complaining about the class. Scourge is rather easy to counter, particularly if you make a point of catching them in the open. They are also still rather squishy and can be burned in short order if a decent team focuses them first. In this meta my primary focus is on Deadeyes. > > > > > > Thank you for the silver tier advice that both misses the point and states the obvious. > > > > scourges are easily handled in plat tier. > > Plz stop Why? Because he's making sense? Scourge is the most targeted class in pvp and spamming skills won't get anyone too far. At this point you're just being salty and delusional like most of the bads in this thread. Just STFU and get good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sigmoid.7082 Posted April 29, 2018 Share Posted April 29, 2018 > @"JTGuevara.9018" said: > > @"Drarnor Kunoram.5180" said: > > > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > > > @"HeadCrowned.6834" said: > > > > My concern with scourges is that they're so over the top AoE orientated that it makes a lot of other classes/builds useless in conquest game mode. > > > > > > Not just that but builds too... > > > > > > D/D elementalist is my favourite but melee is extremely hard countered by Scourge.... > > > What actually really pisses me off the most though is Diamond skin and Necro players... > > > > > > Necros: "Change Diamond skin because it hard counters Rabid Amulet" > > > Anet changes Diamond skin > > > Everyone: "Scourge hard counters melee builds" > > > Necros: "That's fine and balanced, git gud and l2play" > > > > > > > Major difference there: Diamond Skin at the time didn't hard counter rabid amulet. It was completely invincible to condition Necro. It was mathematically impossible to actually kill an ele with Diamond Skin AFKing in water attunement (with just soothing mist) as a condition necro. > > > > Scourge is a strong counter to melee builds, but it's always been able to be killed by them. There it's a matter of one killing the other first, not being completely non-interactive. The second is far healthier for the game, even if you personally don't like it. > > > > > @"JTGuevara.9018" said: > > > > @"Drarnor Kunoram.5180" said: > > > > > @"JTGuevara.9018" said: > > > > > lmao Look at all the defenses of scourge on here. I just don't see how people are even defending this class. > > > > > > > > > > Ok! From a conceptual standpoint when applied in pvp, scourge is fundamentally _broken_. Their AoEs are larger than the capture point! Plus they are instant. Their condition damage and sustain is absolutely ridiculous. Considering the nature of the game of conquest, there is simply no counterplay for all of those things _as a team_. conquest pvp is tailor-made for the scourge. This is the problem with AoE heavy classes. They're always going to have an advantage. You know there _is_ a reason why I see an average of 2 scourges per game, both on the player's and the opposing teams. > > > > > > > > What you're talking about isn't an issue with Scourge, it's an issue with one trait: Sand Savant. > > > > > > HA! Yeah right! It's not just one little trait. The ENTIRE spec is a conceptual problem with respect to conquest. > > > > Yes, the design that lets them entirely cover a point with 100% uptime! Wait...that's completely from Sand Savant. Without it, they don't have anything close to that coverage. > > Sand Savant or not. It doesnt matter. Scourge is broken, end of story. But how many complaints do you see about scourge that aren't directly related to sand savant ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sephiroth.4217 Posted April 29, 2018 Share Posted April 29, 2018 > @"Aktium.9506" said: > > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > They also removed Rabid amulet which meant diamond skin wasn't hard countering anything but bad players. > > > > And even when Rabid ammy was in the game > > m8 > > rabid is still in the game Sorry my bad, could have sworn they removed a toughness condition ammy there somewhere that I used on my ranger/warrior at the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeadCrowned.6834 Posted April 29, 2018 Share Posted April 29, 2018 > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > Sorry my bad, could have sworn they removed a toughness condition ammy there somewhere that I used on my ranger/warrior at the time. That was Settlers amulet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emapudapus.1307 Posted April 29, 2018 Share Posted April 29, 2018 Size increase should only be for support effects like cleanse and barriers. To compesate little this, F4/5 should also get little support effect, like fear enemis and give x boon to allies/ the dmg this skill does heals allies 50% of it. Dmg shroud traits would only work in small dmg circle. While this would be baseline, new grandmaster trait would be pullsing shade out of necro beside only sand shade (not baseline as its now). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meteor.3720 Posted April 29, 2018 Author Share Posted April 29, 2018 > @"Chum Chum.7234" said: > > @"Meteor.3720" said: > > > @"Chum Chum.7234" said: > > > > @"Meteor.3720" said: > > > > > @"Chum Chum.7234" said: > > > > > I'm rather shocked that people are still complaining about the class. Scourge is rather easy to counter, particularly if you make a point of catching them in the open. They are also still rather squishy and can be burned in short order if a decent team focuses them first. In this meta my primary focus is on Deadeyes. > > > > > > > > Thank you for the silver tier advice that both misses the point and states the obvious. > > > > > > scourges are easily handled in plat tier. > > > > Plz stop > > So the Scourge is a "brainless/ op" class in your opinion. > > So the top of the leader board is stuffed with Scourges? > > Scourges don't even exist in bronze/silver tier because anyone playing one can't possibly be bad? > > Come on now, let's be honest. > > Honestly, I deliberately class stack scourges because they're strong in duos or packs. Solo they are easily countered. I will not play on Scourge if the other team has a good deadeye or dps ranger unless there is another scourge. Even then I hesitate because good ranged players can own scourges. Point being, there is nothing wrong with scourges, but we all know that class stacking is the core problem. If you want to complain, refocus your aim towards class stacking/switching classes before the match starts which is completely allowed. Just because the leaderboards aren't stuffed with them doesn't mean they're not brainless and not op - a large part of it is because chrono is even more brainless and most people don't care about leaderboards anymore so they don't represent the state of pvp. When you say "there is nothing wrong with scourges", it's just scary how people can have such a warped view of pvp. Yes - scourge is weak to ranged pressure. All necro builds are. But if you think that means there is nothing wrong with them, then you're just delusional. You can line of sight ranged classes and kite, you can have support classes with reflect and projectile denial, you can have teammates counter pressure. The fact being that in higher tiers of pvp, teammates know the weaknesses of scourge and so will protect scourges to let them wreak havoc. Class stacking is a whole other issue. This doesn't mean scourge is fine as it is. As I said, any class which actively encourages aoe spam, massive boon denial and condi pressure (as a "support" spec) on a node focused pvp mode is braindead and bad for pvp. End of story. > @"Les.4872" said: > > @"Meteor.3720" said: > > > @"Chum Chum.7234" said: > > > > @"Meteor.3720" said: > > > > > @"Chum Chum.7234" said: > > > > > I'm rather shocked that people are still complaining about the class. Scourge is rather easy to counter, particularly if you make a point of catching them in the open. They are also still rather squishy and can be burned in short order if a decent team focuses them first. In this meta my primary focus is on Deadeyes. > > > > > > > > Thank you for the silver tier advice that both misses the point and states the obvious. > > > > > > scourges are easily handled in plat tier. > > > > Plz stop > Why? Because he's making sense? Scourge is the most targeted class in pvp and spamming skills won't get anyone too far. At this point you're just being salty and delusional like most of the bads in this thread. Just kitten and get good. No. Asking him to stop because he is making no sense. Trying to defend the indefensible. As to your points: Scourge is the most targeted - so what? Doesn't mean they're not a broken and braindead class. Spamming skills gets scourges very far in fact. Just look at the leaderboards from last season and there are plenty of scourges who don't deserve to be there (some in the top 10) carried just by spamming skills.. Not salty. Not delusional. In fact only you and Chum Chum seem to be defending scourge. I'm quite happy sitting in top 25 as a reaper, thanks. Just to reiterate. Scourge is broken and braindead. Increased CD means they're not completely OP anymore. Doesn't mean mechanically they are justifiable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emapudapus.1307 Posted April 29, 2018 Share Posted April 29, 2018 .......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTGuevara.9018 Posted April 29, 2018 Share Posted April 29, 2018 > @"Sigmoid.7082" said: > > @"JTGuevara.9018" said: > > > @"Drarnor Kunoram.5180" said: > > > > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > > > > @"HeadCrowned.6834" said: > > > > > My concern with scourges is that they're so over the top AoE orientated that it makes a lot of other classes/builds useless in conquest game mode. > > > > > > > > Not just that but builds too... > > > > > > > > D/D elementalist is my favourite but melee is extremely hard countered by Scourge.... > > > > What actually really pisses me off the most though is Diamond skin and Necro players... > > > > > > > > Necros: "Change Diamond skin because it hard counters Rabid Amulet" > > > > Anet changes Diamond skin > > > > Everyone: "Scourge hard counters melee builds" > > > > Necros: "That's fine and balanced, git gud and l2play" > > > > > > > > > > Major difference there: Diamond Skin at the time didn't hard counter rabid amulet. It was completely invincible to condition Necro. It was mathematically impossible to actually kill an ele with Diamond Skin AFKing in water attunement (with just soothing mist) as a condition necro. > > > > > > Scourge is a strong counter to melee builds, but it's always been able to be killed by them. There it's a matter of one killing the other first, not being completely non-interactive. The second is far healthier for the game, even if you personally don't like it. > > > > > > > @"JTGuevara.9018" said: > > > > > @"Drarnor Kunoram.5180" said: > > > > > > @"JTGuevara.9018" said: > > > > > > lmao Look at all the defenses of scourge on here. I just don't see how people are even defending this class. > > > > > > > > > > > > Ok! From a conceptual standpoint when applied in pvp, scourge is fundamentally _broken_. Their AoEs are larger than the capture point! Plus they are instant. Their condition damage and sustain is absolutely ridiculous. Considering the nature of the game of conquest, there is simply no counterplay for all of those things _as a team_. conquest pvp is tailor-made for the scourge. This is the problem with AoE heavy classes. They're always going to have an advantage. You know there _is_ a reason why I see an average of 2 scourges per game, both on the player's and the opposing teams. > > > > > > > > > > What you're talking about isn't an issue with Scourge, it's an issue with one trait: Sand Savant. > > > > > > > > HA! Yeah right! It's not just one little trait. The ENTIRE spec is a conceptual problem with respect to conquest. > > > > > > Yes, the design that lets them entirely cover a point with 100% uptime! Wait...that's completely from Sand Savant. Without it, they don't have anything close to that coverage. > > > > Sand Savant or not. It doesnt matter. Scourge is broken, end of story. > > But how many complaints do you see about scourge that aren't directly related to sand savant ? Ahem....Scourge is broken. End of story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chum Chum.7234 Posted April 30, 2018 Share Posted April 30, 2018 > @"Meteor.3720" said: > > @"Chum Chum.7234" said: > > > @"Meteor.3720" said: > > > > @"Chum Chum.7234" said: > > > > > @"Meteor.3720" said: > > > > > > @"Chum Chum.7234" said: > > > > > > I'm rather shocked that people are still complaining about the class. Scourge is rather easy to counter, particularly if you make a point of catching them in the open. They are also still rather squishy and can be burned in short order if a decent team focuses them first. In this meta my primary focus is on Deadeyes. > > > > > > > > > > Thank you for the silver tier advice that both misses the point and states the obvious. > > > > > > > > scourges are easily handled in plat tier. > > > > > > Plz stop > > > > So the Scourge is a "brainless/ op" class in your opinion. > > > > So the top of the leader board is stuffed with Scourges? > > > > Scourges don't even exist in bronze/silver tier because anyone playing one can't possibly be bad? > > > > Come on now, let's be honest. > > > > Honestly, I deliberately class stack scourges because they're strong in duos or packs. Solo they are easily countered. I will not play on Scourge if the other team has a good deadeye or dps ranger unless there is another scourge. Even then I hesitate because good ranged players can own scourges. Point being, there is nothing wrong with scourges, but we all know that class stacking is the core problem. If you want to complain, refocus your aim towards class stacking/switching classes before the match starts which is completely allowed. > > Just because the leaderboards aren't stuffed with them doesn't mean they're not brainless and not op - a large part of it is because chrono is even more brainless and most people don't care about leaderboards anymore so they don't represent the state of pvp. > > When you say "there is nothing wrong with scourges", it's just scary how people can have such a warped view of pvp. Yes - scourge is weak to ranged pressure. All necro builds are. But if you think that means there is nothing wrong with them, then you're just delusional. > You can line of sight ranged classes and kite, you can have support classes with reflect and projectile denial, you can have teammates counter pressure. > The fact being that in higher tiers of pvp, teammates know the weaknesses of scourge and so will protect scourges to let them wreak havoc. > > Class stacking is a whole other issue. This doesn't mean scourge is fine as it is. As I said, any class which actively encourages aoe spam, massive boon denial and condi pressure (as a "support" spec) on a node focused pvp mode is braindead and bad for pvp. > > End of story. > > > > @"Les.4872" said: > > > @"Meteor.3720" said: > > > > @"Chum Chum.7234" said: > > > > > @"Meteor.3720" said: > > > > > > @"Chum Chum.7234" said: > > > > > > I'm rather shocked that people are still complaining about the class. Scourge is rather easy to counter, particularly if you make a point of catching them in the open. They are also still rather squishy and can be burned in short order if a decent team focuses them first. In this meta my primary focus is on Deadeyes. > > > > > > > > > > Thank you for the silver tier advice that both misses the point and states the obvious. > > > > > > > > scourges are easily handled in plat tier. > > > > > > Plz stop > > Why? Because he's making sense? Scourge is the most targeted class in pvp and spamming skills won't get anyone too far. At this point you're just being salty and delusional like most of the bads in this thread. Just kitten and get good. > > No. Asking him to stop because he is making no sense. > Trying to defend the indefensible. > > As to your points: > Scourge is the most targeted - so what? Doesn't mean they're not a broken and braindead class. > Spamming skills gets scourges very far in fact. Just look at the leaderboards from last season and there are plenty of scourges who don't deserve to be there (some in the top 10) carried just by spamming skills.. > Not salty. Not delusional. In fact only you and Chum Chum seem to be defending scourge. > I'm quite happy sitting in top 25 as a reaper, thanks. > > Just to reiterate. Scourge is broken and braindead. Increased CD means they're not completely OP anymore. Doesn't mean mechanically they are justifiable. You all need to stop with the whole 'my view is the only right perspective and if you disagree you must be dumb or insane' nonesense. Your followup to our points are that high level players play as a team and protect the otherwise vulnerable scourge with "support classes with reflect and projectile denial". So the OP spam class needs support classes to survive? You are correct that they require support classes in order to stay upright, which is exactly why they aren't a broken OP class. They are a strong class and they do benefit from being able to roll the F1-5 when in danger or delivering pressure, but they are easily countered with range and high dps burst classes, as well as guardian bunkers. Mesmer, Thief, and Necro are the most frequently played classes this season in my observation. I'd assume that means they all have some advantages over the other classes in this meta, but claiming any is broken is a touch too extreme IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crab Fear.1624 Posted April 30, 2018 Share Posted April 30, 2018 Next expansion. Just wait Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Virelion.4128 Posted April 30, 2018 Share Posted April 30, 2018 The general advice I would give to people complaining here would be. Get go play scourge for some time. You clearly are not aware of weakesses of the spec and necro in general. The best way to learn this weaknesses is to actualy play the spec and see how people will counter you. > @"milego.4830" said: > You see it's broken when they literally turned them into raid bosses. They're pretty much walking dancing floors. Red circle AOE indication was asked by community and anet added it. Pro tip -> you dont have to dodge every red circle, they are not boss abilities, they are just skills which were made more visible for some reason. > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > D/D elementalist is my favourite but melee is extremely hard countered by Scourge.... Try sw/d weaver, very similar playstyle and actualy manages scourges quite good even why standig in shades. Everyone has a playstyle they liked and was nerfed/not meta anymore. > @"JTGuevara.9018" said: > Sand Savant or not. It doesnt matter. Scourge is broken, end of story. > @"JTGuevara.9018" said: > Ahem....Scourge is broken. End of story. Useless post is useless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sephiroth.4217 Posted April 30, 2018 Share Posted April 30, 2018 > @"Virelion.4128" said: > The general advice I would give to people complaining here would be. Get go play scourge for some time. You clearly are not aware of weakesses of the spec and necro in general. The best way to learn this weaknesses is to actualy play the spec and see how people will counter you. > > > @"milego.4830" said: > > You see it's broken when they literally turned them into raid bosses. They're pretty much walking dancing floors. > > Red circle AOE indication was asked by community and anet added it. Pro tip -> you dont have to dodge every red circle, they are not boss abilities, they are just skills which were made more visible for some reason. > > > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > D/D elementalist is my favourite but melee is extremely hard countered by Scourge.... > > Try sw/d weaver, very similar playstyle and actualy manages scourges quite good even why standig in shades. Everyone has a playstyle they liked and was nerfed/not meta anymore. > > > @"JTGuevara.9018" said: > > Sand Savant or not. It doesnt matter. Scourge is broken, end of story. > > @"JTGuevara.9018" said: > > Ahem....Scourge is broken. End of story. > > Useless post is useless. > > > I would if I could... Due to Australian ping, I can't play any build involving 130 range on attacks... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witcher.3197 Posted April 30, 2018 Share Posted April 30, 2018 > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > D/D elementalist is my favourite but melee is extremely hard countered by Scourge.... lol what year is it? everything hardcounters d/d ele now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sephiroth.4217 Posted April 30, 2018 Share Posted April 30, 2018 > @"witcher.3197" said: > > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > D/D elementalist is my favourite but melee is extremely hard countered by Scourge.... > > lol what year is it? everything hardcounters d/d ele now > Mostly Scourge and DH traps for me, otherwise most things are an even match up. (for me anyway) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aeolus.3615 Posted April 30, 2018 Share Posted April 30, 2018 > @"Aktium.9506" said: > > @"Aza.2105" said: > > > @"Aeolus.3615" said: > > > Change scourge aoe into cones..... > > > > You beat me to it. When you look at scourge from a design perspective, changing the SHAPE of their aoes would work wonders. Large circles don't offer much counter play. Because the shape is even all around and larger than the point itself. Even if sand savant was gone, the aoes would still be relatively large. Probably almost larger than the point. Really only two shapes come to mind: > > > > **Cone**: Would offer counter play and make the move weaker around the base of the scourge. A small cone shape would be perfectly balanced. > > > > **Rectangle**: The same shape as warrior zerker burst with bow. A narrow rectangle shape would require positioning to hit and could be side stepped by players. > > > > Why hasn't Anet even considered this? > You're both plebeians. > > Donut shades would be much cooler. Actually Air keep veteran has some donuts and cones actually :), would be a decent thing for some of the next expantion aoe skills, ill still remain blunt to scourge design to short cones but wider. Hammer Ele with "donuting" The Forger xD. @Aza.2105, it is Anet dont expect much, some stuff in this game still works badly has if game in beta state. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vagrant.7206 Posted April 30, 2018 Share Posted April 30, 2018 > @"Vague Memory.2817" said: > All Anet have to do find out which elites are broken is look at how the class population changes after they add new elite specs. Currently almost every game I play (literally) there are 2 necros and 2 mirages on each team. The fact MM can't compose matches without adding 2 of each means these are the two top played elites specs at the moment. Why? Because they are easy mode, you can jump on them and not knowing how to play the class and reap high reward for little effort. Good for PvP achievements, not so good for PvP. Easier said than done. Everybody hops on the new stuff for the first few months, and there will always be an adjustment period. It's self-apparent *now* that chrono and scourge are too easy to play for the reward, but that's not easy to figure out shortly after launch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pah.4931 Posted April 30, 2018 Share Posted April 30, 2018 Just think about this. Scourges have had almost nothing but nerfs since PoF launched and can still dominate. That means someone actually thought "scourges were gtg" for PvP months ago... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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