Ideas for T5 and T6 fractals

[CptAurellian.9537]

> @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> > @"Malediktus.9250" said:

> > A good illustration why we need t5+ fractals and cms do not cut it:

> >

> >

> >

> > Current difficulty does not even need a dedicated healer anymore for good players (while still playing squishy weavers) and bosses die before it can even casting a single skill

>

> I don't see why an above average exception is an argument for new tiers. Such gameplay is far beyond reach for most groups.

 

This is one of the few cases where I agree with Kheldorn. That video illustrates the state of something like 0.x% of the population. While I'm usually an advocate for niche content, that niche definitely is too insignificant to warrant the effort of introducing new tiers.

[GrubySzymek.1362]

> @"sokeenoppa.5384" said:

> > @"Warcry.1596" said:

> > I have more trouble in T4s than in raid content. One requires mechanics (with slight emphasis on DPS), one requires DPS (and some mechanics).

> >

> > Mechanics are skill based, dealing a certain amount of DPS is gear based.

>

> Ummm.. you think dps comes from gear More than skill?

 

Coding autoclicker for proper rotation is easier than making a bot dealing with random mechanics flawlessly.

[sokeenoppa.5384]

> @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> > @"sokeenoppa.5384" said:

> > > @"Warcry.1596" said:

> > > I have more trouble in T4s than in raid content. One requires mechanics (with slight emphasis on DPS), one requires DPS (and some mechanics).

> > >

> > > Mechanics are skill based, dealing a certain amount of DPS is gear based.

> >

> > Ummm.. you think dps comes from gear More than skill?

>

> Coding autoclicker for proper rotation is easier than making a bot dealing with random mechanics flawlessly.

 

Best argument ever.

[GrubySzymek.1362]

> @"sokeenoppa.5384" said:

> > @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> > > @"sokeenoppa.5384" said:

> > > > @"Warcry.1596" said:

> > > > I have more trouble in T4s than in raid content. One requires mechanics (with slight emphasis on DPS), one requires DPS (and some mechanics).

> > > >

> > > > Mechanics are skill based, dealing a certain amount of DPS is gear based.

> > >

> > > Ummm.. you think dps comes from gear More than skill?

> >

> > Coding autoclicker for proper rotation is easier than making a bot dealing with random mechanics flawlessly.

>

> Best argument ever.

 

Thank you.

[sokeenoppa.5384]

> @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> > @"sokeenoppa.5384" said:

> > > @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> > > > @"sokeenoppa.5384" said:

> > > > > @"Warcry.1596" said:

> > > > > I have more trouble in T4s than in raid content. One requires mechanics (with slight emphasis on DPS), one requires DPS (and some mechanics).

> > > > >

> > > > > Mechanics are skill based, dealing a certain amount of DPS is gear based.

> > > >

> > > > Ummm.. you think dps comes from gear More than skill?

> > >

> > > Coding autoclicker for proper rotation is easier than making a bot dealing with random mechanics flawlessly.

> >

> > Best argument ever.

>

> Thank you.

 

If we skip cheating part you can agree that good rotation is more important than best Gear tier^^?

[GrubySzymek.1362]

> @"sokeenoppa.5384" said:

> > @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> > > @"sokeenoppa.5384" said:

> > > > @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> > > > > @"sokeenoppa.5384" said:

> > > > > > @"Warcry.1596" said:

> > > > > > I have more trouble in T4s than in raid content. One requires mechanics (with slight emphasis on DPS), one requires DPS (and some mechanics).

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Mechanics are skill based, dealing a certain amount of DPS is gear based.

> > > > >

> > > > > Ummm.. you think dps comes from gear More than skill?

> > > >

> > > > Coding autoclicker for proper rotation is easier than making a bot dealing with random mechanics flawlessly.

> > >

> > > Best argument ever.

> >

> > Thank you.

>

> If we skip cheating part you can agree that good rotation is more important than best Gear tier^^?

 

No I can't. Gear and rotation are in pair. You can't provided good dps numbers if you lack any.

[sokeenoppa.5384]

> @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> > @"sokeenoppa.5384" said:

> > > @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> > > > @"sokeenoppa.5384" said:

> > > > > @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> > > > > > @"sokeenoppa.5384" said:

> > > > > > > @"Warcry.1596" said:

> > > > > > > I have more trouble in T4s than in raid content. One requires mechanics (with slight emphasis on DPS), one requires DPS (and some mechanics).

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Mechanics are skill based, dealing a certain amount of DPS is gear based.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Ummm.. you think dps comes from gear More than skill?

> > > > >

> > > > > Coding autoclicker for proper rotation is easier than making a bot dealing with random mechanics flawlessly.

> > > >

> > > > Best argument ever.

> > >

> > > Thank you.

> >

> > If we skip cheating part you can agree that good rotation is more important than best Gear tier^^?

>

> No I can't. Gear and rotation are in pair. You can't provided good dps numbers if you lack any.

 

Thats why i said gear TIER

[CptAurellian.9537]

> @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> > @"sokeenoppa.5384" said:

> > > @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> > > > @"sokeenoppa.5384" said:

> > > > > @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> > > > > > @"sokeenoppa.5384" said:

> > > > > > > @"Warcry.1596" said:

> > > > > > > I have more trouble in T4s than in raid content. One requires mechanics (with slight emphasis on DPS), one requires DPS (and some mechanics).

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Mechanics are skill based, dealing a certain amount of DPS is gear based.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Ummm.. you think dps comes from gear More than skill?

> > > > >

> > > > > Coding autoclicker for proper rotation is easier than making a bot dealing with random mechanics flawlessly.

> > > >

> > > > Best argument ever.

> > >

> > > Thank you.

> >

> > If we skip cheating part you can agree that good rotation is more important than best Gear tier^^?

>

> No I can't. Gear and rotation are in pair. You can't provided good dps numbers if you lack any.

 

For a power class, perfect rotation and exotic gear still yields approx. 90% of the benchmark. Perfect gear and trash rotation, on the other hand ... well, run a dps meter and you'll see the results everywhere. They're not pretty.

[Lexi.1398]

i think it'd be a nice opportunity for dedicated fractal groups (read: NOT pugs- snowcrows cm 100 video linked is a perfect example of a good dedicated group being far better than most ppl will ever get to be, ive no doubt theres groups which have similar clear times/ease with fractals)...but being as pug groups already struggle with t4 dailies, i wonder how wide the appeal would be, and whether encouraging people to get a stable group to run with (or fractal kp to serve as a gate for skill -opens can of worms-) is a good thing or not.

[GrubySzymek.1362]

> @"CptAurellian.9537" said:

> > @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> > > @"sokeenoppa.5384" said:

> > > > @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> > > > > @"sokeenoppa.5384" said:

> > > > > > @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> > > > > > > @"sokeenoppa.5384" said:

> > > > > > > > @"Warcry.1596" said:

> > > > > > > > I have more trouble in T4s than in raid content. One requires mechanics (with slight emphasis on DPS), one requires DPS (and some mechanics).

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Mechanics are skill based, dealing a certain amount of DPS is gear based.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Ummm.. you think dps comes from gear More than skill?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Coding autoclicker for proper rotation is easier than making a bot dealing with random mechanics flawlessly.

> > > > >

> > > > > Best argument ever.

> > > >

> > > > Thank you.

> > >

> > > If we skip cheating part you can agree that good rotation is more important than best Gear tier^^?

> >

> > No I can't. Gear and rotation are in pair. You can't provided good dps numbers if you lack any.

>

> For a power class, perfect rotation and exotic gear still yields approx. 90% of the benchmark. Perfect gear and trash rotation, on the other hand ... well, run a dps meter and you'll see the results everywhere. They're not pretty.

 

Yes I know. But this is original post:

 

> Mechanics are skill based, dealing a certain amount of DPS is gear based.

 

It's not about same gear tiers, but gear in general. You can't make good dps using soldiers instead of zerkers in power build. That's why I said gear and rotation are equally important. The difference between exotic and ascended of same gear stat indeed is not important if you can execute your rotation.

[Geisterlicht.6083]

> @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> > @"Malediktus.9250" said:

> > A good illustration why we need t5+ fractals and cms do not cut it:

> >

> >

> >

> > Current difficulty does not even need a dedicated healer anymore for good players (while still playing squishy weavers) and bosses die before it can even casting a single skill

>

> I don't see why an above average exception is an argument for new tiers. Such gameplay is far beyond reach for most groups.

 

I don't think this argument of "only few people are capable of this" is not true, since 80% of my FL can run such comps - it really is not hard with the massive powercreep that we currently have.

 

Also I know many people that barely play or left gw2 BECAUSE the content got dumbed down so much (and fractal was our main content pre hot).

 

I think a t5 could make things more interesting (remember people used to run up to lvl 80 fractals despite getting no reward for it).

[GrubySzymek.1362]

> @"Geisterlicht.6083" said:

> > @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> > > @"Malediktus.9250" said:

> > > A good illustration why we need t5+ fractals and cms do not cut it:

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > Current difficulty does not even need a dedicated healer anymore for good players (while still playing squishy weavers) and bosses die before it can even casting a single skill

> >

> > I don't see why an above average exception is an argument for new tiers. Such gameplay is far beyond reach for most groups.

>

> I don't think this argument of "only few people are capable of this" is true, since 80% of my FL can run such comps - it really is not hard with the massive powercreep that we currently have.

>

> Also I know many people that barely play or left gw2 BECAUSE the content got dumbed down so much (and fractal was our main content pre hot).

>

> I think a t5 would make things more interesting.

 

Or simply nerf damage acoss the board and break support trio to make fights harder without losing resources on another tier for fractals which will be farmed in next few weeks after which we make full circle to this thread asking for T7.

[Geisterlicht.6083]

Of course that would be the best solution, I'm all for that.

But then you have all those lazy farmers complaining that their daily gold farm got harder..

 

Edit: I think a nerf across the board down to like 25k max would be good for this game. And in addition they should remove the damage bonus from breakbars.

[Warcry.1596]

Pushing skills in the right order at the right time isn't really skillful play. Its memorization. I am NOT taking anything away from those that work hard to figure out what the best way to do it is, I'm just saying that itself isn't skillful.

 

Being able to dodge and worry about mechanics while doing that, is skillful. Raids have less of it than some of the harder T4s. I figured that was common knowledge.

[Bakeneko.5826]

We don't need another content pack with stupidly long waiting times. Let Anet put CM on all 90+ fractals only with some currency to get special rewards, make it daily and call it done

[Karnasis.6892]

You guys know that some of the issues with Fractals vs Raids for hard content comes down to the Fractal potions and the titles right. They are in the game to make your content easier. I mean you get 25% mobility (10% endurance regen), 25% damage reduction, and 15% increased damage just for having those (which makes content easier). At least raids don't have these buffs because it was designed from the get go to be challenging. But as with all games with with PvE as it's core, once you know the content and complete it enough times the content is easy.

 

And then lets not forget the new Mist Attunements (which the video from the Snowcrows have). They really don't need healers (mostly because their damage is very very high), but also because they get heals every second as well just from having the title. I have 12 characters and with the title if I had it I would get 600 hp a second in healing. Not a lot, but if I had the maximum amount of characters if I wanted to game the system (which is 69 character slots) I would get 3450 hp in healing a second. And yes Fractal God heals based off how many characters you have. Also the title gives you more ar and an increase to damage (not a lot but damage matters)

 

I'm just saying that we have tools to make the game easier, as that's how progression works. However if you want challenge, don't use your Mist Potions, or obtain the fractal titles. Don't use mistlock singularities (since they automatically apply the Infinite/Omnipotions and repair all your gear in addition to giving you a saving grace).

 

And keep in mind what's boring for you since you've mastered something doesn't mean it's boring for the majority of players.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

> @"Malediktus.9250" said:

> > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

> > Maybe asking for more challenge motes would be more realistic.

> But the challenge motes are just a bit harder than normal mode, tier 5 and 6 would have the additional mechanics from cms (if a fractal has a cm) as baseline.

>

> Bosses T5 (lets say +50% compared to T4) and T6 (+100%) would also have a lot more HP so you cannot 100-0 burn the phases anymore and people actually have to account for the mechanics.> @"Trae.2384" said:

> > I think the general consensus is that instabilities dont make things harder they just make them much more annoying and rng unpleasant. Some of these ideas sound like aids with a side order of hepatitis A.B.C. I do agree there should be at least a t5 but the changing every minute, no rezes and wipes start from beginning would certainly be way too absurd for probably 99% of the player base. I feel they should add a t5 though so we agree on that and I also think they should add a challenge mote to at least one of the high fractals, or maybe 87. 2 integrated matrixes a day is kind of rough considering whats needed for higher attunments.

>

> I disagree. Instabilties should add chaos to the playstyle. That is why I proposed instabilities getting randomly changed every minute in t5/t6 so people have to adjust all the time and not just spam their rotations without spending attention for everything else.

> Instabilities you can easily ignore or dont affect playstyles are useless.

>

> > @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:

> > > @"Malediktus.9250" said:

> > > Alot of people are getting bored with how easy T4 fractals are, I believe we need to have t5 and possibly even t6 fractals implemented.

> > How many do you think "a lot" is compared to how many people play T4? ANet seems to think that 99/cm and 100/cm plus raids are already there for those looking for greater challenges. Why should they also invest in T5 fracts, especially when the already have a full plate of changes they want to make to the existing fracts?

> Most of the time Anet changes something about existing fractals it basically makes them even easier and more mindnumbing boring. T1 to t3 already are braindead easy and not even worth running unless you need pages for the fractal titles.

> I prefer having something harder. Why stop at level 100? Infusions go all the way to +30 (granted they are currently impossible to craft, but it could be fixed by making +20 infusions a possible drop).

> Maybe not even stop at t6 fractals, make the cap just based on the amount of AR you can afford.

>

> While a lot of raid encounters are harder, they are also 10 man content and weekly. Fractals are 5 man and daily. So there is no logical reason to not have 5man content that matches or exceeds 10man content difficulty.

> > @"yann.1946" said:

> > I personally feel like it would separate the playerbase more and as such would be a bad idea.

> That is literally a non issue since you only need 5 people to do a fractal. Since t1-t4 fractals stay the same noone would loose his preferred difficulty.

>

> > @"Amineo.8951" said:

> > I have a better idea: Make new dungeons or add CM to existing ones with lvl80 requirements...

> New dungeons would be great, so would be more CMs. But the latest fractal did not even get a CM (and they even added a checkpoint during the boss fight @65% lol). I guess those CMs are more effort to create since you have to think of entirely new mechanics and changes to existing mechanics. Adjusting just the health and dmg of enemies + having more instabilities at the same time should be much less effort.

>

 

I still think having a CM for every T4 fractal would be the way to go. There's you're T5 fractal dailies right there. Give us vets something more interactive to do.

[spiritualabyss.7016]

> @"Karnasis.6892" said:

> You guys know that some of the issues with Fractals vs Raids for hard content comes down to the Fractal potions and the titles right. They are in the game to make your content easier. I mean you get 25% mobility (10% endurance regen), 25% damage reduction, and 15% increased damage just for having those (which makes content easier). At least raids don't have these buffs because it was designed from the get go to be challenging. But as with all games with with PvE as it's core, once you know the content and complete it enough times the content is easy.

>

> And then lets not forget the new Mist Attunements (which the video from the Snowcrows have). They really don't need healers (mostly because their damage is very very high), but also because they get heals every second as well just from having the title. I have 12 characters and with the title if I had it I would get 600 hp a second in healing. Not a lot, but if I had the maximum amount of characters if I wanted to game the system (which is 69 character slots) I would get 3450 hp in healing a second. And yes Fractal God heals based off how many characters you have. Also the title gives you more ar and an increase to damage (not a lot but damage matters)

>

> I'm just saying that we have tools to make the game easier, as that's how progression works. However if you want challenge, don't use your Mist Potions, or obtain the fractal titles. Don't use mistlock singularities (since they automatically apply the Infinite/Omnipotions and repair all your gear in addition to giving you a saving grace).

>

> And keep in mind what's boring for you since you've mastered something doesn't mean it's boring for the majority of players.

 

Your are wrong about the healing part - it does NOT scale with the amount of characters on your account.

The highest tier available "fractal god" gives you 100hp/s.

 

And of those people in that SC video only one Weaver has fractal god (+7% dmg) while the other two are at tier one or two of the title (1-2% dmg increase & 25-50hp/s)

[Vinceman.4572]

> @"spiritualabyss.7016" said:

> > @"Karnasis.6892" said:

> > You guys know that some of the issues with Fractals vs Raids for hard content comes down to the Fractal potions and the titles right. They are in the game to make your content easier. I mean you get 25% mobility (10% endurance regen), 25% damage reduction, and 15% increased damage just for having those (which makes content easier). At least raids don't have these buffs because it was designed from the get go to be challenging. But as with all games with with PvE as it's core, once you know the content and complete it enough times the content is easy.

> >

> > And then lets not forget the new Mist Attunements (which the video from the Snowcrows have). They really don't need healers (mostly because their damage is very very high), but also because they get heals every second as well just from having the title. I have 12 characters and with the title if I had it I would get 600 hp a second in healing. Not a lot, but if I had the maximum amount of characters if I wanted to game the system (which is 69 character slots) I would get 3450 hp in healing a second. And yes Fractal God heals based off how many characters you have. Also the title gives you more ar and an increase to damage (not a lot but damage matters)

> >

> > I'm just saying that we have tools to make the game easier, as that's how progression works. However if you want challenge, don't use your Mist Potions, or obtain the fractal titles. Don't use mistlock singularities (since they automatically apply the Infinite/Omnipotions and repair all your gear in addition to giving you a saving grace).

> >

> > And keep in mind what's boring for you since you've mastered something doesn't mean it's boring for the majority of players.

>

> Your are wrong about the healing part - it does NOT scale with the amount of characters on your account.

> The highest tier available "fractal god" gives you 100hp/s.

>

> And of those people in that SC video only one Weaver has fractal god (+7% dmg) while the other two are at tier one or two of the title (1-2% dmg increase & 25-50hp/s)

 

Well, I was curious about that as well and looked at the wiki:

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mist_Attunement_4

"and 50 health per second in fractals for every character in your account"

 

The last edit was from 14th January 2018 but I swear to god that this hasn't been there over the last 4 months.

 

And yeah, the correct number is 100hp/s and not depending on the amount of the characters on your account:

 

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Fractal_God

"Gain 25 agony resistance, 7% outgoing damage, and 100 health per second."

 

[Malediktus.9250]

Yes, it is healing independed of amount of characters on the account. Otherwise it would be pay to win and you would forced to max out your character slots

 

> @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> > @"Malediktus.9250" said:

> > A good illustration why we need t5+ fractals and cms do not cut it:

> >

> >

> >

> > Current difficulty does not even need a dedicated healer anymore for good players (while still playing squishy weavers) and bosses die before it can even casting a single skill

>

> I don't see why an above average exception is an argument for new tiers. Such gameplay is far beyond reach for most groups.

 

I disagree. First even two weavers instead of 3 do enough damage to skip the majority of boss attacks. Second even the most top tier players shouldnt be able to do enough damage to make bosses meaningless in the high end content specifically called challenge mode. No matter how you twist it. Either Anet needs to greatly nerf damage across the board (say -50%) OR fix existing content by giving everything significantly higher HP (lets say 100% for a start and see how it works out) OR make higher tiers of content.

[Karnasis.6892]

> @"spiritualabyss.7016" said:

> Your are wrong about the healing part - it does NOT scale with the amount of characters on your account.

> The highest tier available "fractal god" gives you 100hp/s.

>

> And of those people in that SC video only one Weaver has fractal god (+7% dmg) while the other two are at tier one or two of the title (1-2% dmg increase & 25-50hp/s)

 

Then the in-game description needs to be fixed for Mist Attunement 1-4, because I wasn't getting the effect from the wiki or word of mouth

I don't have access to Mist Attunement yet, but the first description IN GAME says "5 Agony Resistance, 1% increased outgoing damage, and 10 health per second in fractals for every character in your account."

 

To me that reads that I'd get 10 hp a second for every character I have on my account (which is currently 12) . However the wiki description for Fractal God (linked above) has a different description. I clearly remember the in game description stating for every character in your account from day one of these titles being out, but maybe they tested that internally and found it to be a tad op (but your a god right :P), but never updated the description. Whatever.

 

However I feel my other points are still valid, even with all of these additions to our damage mitigation (and general power creep), if you want harder content, you just don't use them/obtain them.

[Vinceman.4572]

That's a mistake. It definitely is this one here:

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Fractal_God

[CptAurellian.9537]

While it may not be the best wording, you are simply interpreting "for every character in your account" the wrong way. It means that the effect applies to every character on your account (in contrast to being bound to the character that purchased it), not that the strength of the effect is multiplied by the number of your characters. Thinking logically, that is the only possible solution even if you don't have Fractal Savant+ to check for yourself - multiplying the effect by your character number would be hilariously stupid design.

[Karnasis.6892]

> @"CptAurellian.9537" said:

> While it may not be the best wording, you are simply interpreting "for every character in your account" the wrong way. It means that the effect applies to every character on your account (in contrast to being bound to the character that purchased it), not that the strength of the effect is multiplied by the number of your characters. Thinking logically, that is the only possible solution even if you don't have Fractal Savant+ to check for yourself - multiplying the effect by your character number would be hilariously stupid design.

 

Sure, but at the same time I expected it to be something more powerful than 100 hp a second..... that's barely enough to be helpful (but still better than nothing I suppose). For the amount of effort anyone who hasn't run fractals since they launched would have to do i would think the reward would be a tad better then.

 

However this is A.net and the rewards usually don't warrant the amount of work you need to do to get said rewards (not saying they need to be super short rewards either.... just some are longer than others)

[CptAurellian.9537]

> @"Karnasis.6892" said:

> > @"CptAurellian.9537" said:

> > While it may not be the best wording, you are simply interpreting "for every character in your account" the wrong way. It means that the effect applies to every character on your account (in contrast to being bound to the character that purchased it), not that the strength of the effect is multiplied by the number of your characters. Thinking logically, that is the only possible solution even if you don't have Fractal Savant+ to check for yourself - multiplying the effect by your character number would be hilariously stupid design.

>

> Sure, but at the same time I expected it to be something more powerful than 100 hp a second..... that's barely enough to be helpful (but still better than nothing I suppose). For the amount of effort anyone who hasn't run fractals since they launched would have to do i would think the reward would be a tad better then.

>

> However this is A.net and the rewards usually don't warrant the amount of work you need to do to get said rewards (not saying they need to be super short rewards either.... just some are longer than others)

It's a fine line between "not helpful" and "overpowered". In this case, the devs seem to have hit the sweet spot rather well, since it has been clear from beginning that these titles are primarily a resource sink for a prestige thing. Besides, 100 HP/s, 25 AR and, more so, 7% more damage are nothing to scoff at. Wouldn't be fun if the buff made you completely overpowered.