Flag DPS-Meter user in the game

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"Dayra.7405" said:

> If you would have read the paragraph before your post, you would know that we discuss the consequences of a future law (applicable as of 25 May 2018.) so you are right all is still legal.

>

> Even further: my main point is not to show it will be illegal, but that the continuation of it will be to much administrative effort to do so.

 

That doesn't change anything. The law has been around since 2016 and will enter into force 25 May 2018. The relevant people knew about it for 2 years, do you honestly believe that they knew something was gonna be illegal and didn't do anything for 2 whole years? There is a reason they didn't force the law directly in 2016, to give time to those affected by it to make changes if required. Yet none happened. Everything will stay perfectly legal even after the law enters into force, there is no doubt about that.

Also, other games do way more than simply track the dps of users, yet they didn't do anything to change that either.

[Miko.4158]

other games have it in built , you consent when you sign up to the t+c's

its a level playing field , you know everyone is doing it, or you switch it off

n-e-x-t

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"Miko.4158" said:

> other games have it in built , you consent when you sign up to the t+c's

> its a level playing field , you know everyone is doing it, or you switch it off

> n-e-x-t

 

Can you tell me a game that has a dps meter built-in?

[Miko.4158]

can you show me a arenanet post that endorses the collection of other users data using 3rd party software?

[nia.4725]

> @"Miko.4158" said:

> can you show me a arenanet post that endorses the collection of other users data using 3rd party software?

 

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/505643/#Comment_505643

[BlaqueFyre.5678]

> @"Miko.4158" said:

> can you show me a arenanet post that endorses the collection of other users data using 3rd party software?

 

Fun fact Anet Commented that’s a Combat Data isn’t user data.

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"Miko.4158" said:

> can you show me a arenanet post that endorses the collection of other users data using 3rd party software?

 

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/505643/#Comment_505643

 

edit: someone was faster thank you nia.4725

 

And btw answering a question with a question is really sad. The question remains:

 

> other games have it in built , you consent when you sign up to the t+c's

> its a level playing field , you know everyone is doing it, or you switch it off

> n-e-x-t

 

Which game has a built-in dps-meter?

 

For anyone that doesn't want to click:

 

> ArenaNet authorizes the use and development of 3rd Party tools under the banner of a "DPS Meter". "DPS Meters" is defined as the collection and processing of combat related data in order to develop a statistical and visual representation of that data. This combat data maybe collected from anyone inside of your immediate social group. Social groups are defined as including the player character, and current party and/or squad.

 

Also important:

 

> **Combat data does not have player ownership** as it is being generated by the game server and then transmitted in order to update the status of the world state.

 

So enough with the dps being personal data non-sense. Combat data doesn't belong to anyone, they belong to the game server.

[Alehin.3746]

> @"Linken.6345" said:

> > @"Alehin.3746" said:

> > >muh privacy

> > Just have "chill run" or "non meta" in the tittle, "DPS meter people" wont join you.

>

> Sounds to me the OP dont want to put up lfg and instead join any of the ones already listed, cant seem to find any none meta or chill runs so want everyone to be open to them without any hassle.

 

Hmmm, i see. I think they would feel dissapointed if this change they ask for went live and pretty much all LFG groups have dps meters. lol

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"Dayra.7405" said:

> 1) Anet is a small studio with only a few hundert employees and it has a mother company, NC Soft very likely has lawyers, but does ANet? And even if they have: Are they consulted for everything?

>

> 2) DPS-meter isn't DSP-Meter. A DPS-Meter measuring only your own DPs has nothing to do with the discussion of this thread and nothing with privacy laws.

> But a DPS-Meter measuring and comparing and judging others is at least very close to privacy violations.

No, it is not. People already explained it to you.

 

>

> 3) It's not an ANet DPS-Meter, We are talking about a tolerated, even supported leaking (or publishing) of privacy related data.

Again, it's not because those are not "privacy related data".

 

By the way, you still didn't answer what do you think about content streaming and why aren't you up in arms against it.

 

> @"Dayra.7405" said:

> > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said:

> > neither can be used by a Player under normal circumstances to connect your Gw2 Display Name to your Natural Person, which is needed to make it considered Personal Data.

>

> I know do do not want to hear that nor will you believe me: Relation to a fixed identifier (i.e. an account-id) generated and used by a online-system of a company is enough.

I know you don't want to hear this, nor will you believe me, but it _isn't_. Not unless you gain access to something else that can link that account id to some some other data that might violate your privacy (like linking it to your real person, or bank account, for example). Which you can't (Anet possibly could, but they aren't sharing that part of the data).

The worst you can say is that dps meters might infringe on privacy data of your _in-game character_. There are however no privacy laws that protect privacy of ingame characters. They all protect only real people.

 

> @"Dayra.7405" said:

> Are you Lawyer? I am not, I prefer to read the comprehension and explanation of other people on laws than the laws directly.

> https://www.i-scoop.eu/gdpr/gdpr-personal-data-identifiers-pseudonymous-information/

> The section titled "Identifiability and identifiers in practice: the meaning of ‘all means’"

> I conclude from that, that it's sufficient that someone e.g. ANet can map it (easily) to real-world persons, to make it PII.

Yes, potentially for anet it might fall under personal data, because they might be able to link it to your real self. Which is why they are required to have specific procedures to handle that data and show they are compliant with the legislation.

Players using the dps meters however aren't dealing with personal data because they _can't_ do that. Unless anet leaks any info that might allow them to do so (which, as far as i know, they _don't_), it's perfectly okay.

 

By the way, i'm pretty sure you already know that, because you keep targeting dps meters specifically, ignoring things like streaming (which for someone concerned with privacy should have been a bigger target).

 

 

[Miko.4158]

.

> Also, other games do way more than simply track the dps of users, yet they didn't do anything to change that either.

 

more than , but not inclusive?, its your quote/

most command and conquer type games have dps type meters.

 

regardless of gw2 interpretation of data protection, they still have a duty of care to their players, and from the thread's content and complaints its clear its being mis-used.

 

 

 

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"Miko.4158" said:

> .

> > Also, other games do way more than simply track the dps of users, yet they didn't do anything to change that either.

>

> more than , but not inclusive?, its your quote/

> most command and conquer type games have dps type meters.

>

> regardless of gw2 interpretation of data protection, they still have a duty of care to their players, and from the thread's content and complaints its clear its being mis-used.

>

>

>

 

Command and Conquer games are not MMORPGs... but nice try. The truth is almost all MMORPGs that have dps-meters use third party tools.

By "more than that" I mean in a lot of other MMORPGs they also allow full gear inspections, you right click on someone's name and you can select Inspect to see everything they use. Of course no consent is required.

[BlaqueFyre.5678]

> @"Miko.4158" said:

> .

> > Also, other games do way more than simply track the dps of users, yet they didn't do anything to change that either.

>

> more than , but not inclusive?, its your quote/

> most command and conquer type games have dps type meters.

>

> regardless of gw2 interpretation of data protection, they still have a duty of care to their players, and from the thread's content and complaints its clear its being mis-used.

>

>

>

 

Anet does care for their players hence why their players Data is safeguarded and nothing of the player’s personal data is being misused or transmitted.

 

Players can complain all they want, doesn’t mean their complaints are valid or have any substance, especially when they aren’t backed by anything.

[Miko.4158]

which is why I've said if people whisper about DPS and are bullying/toxic people they should report them.

pretty much the title of this thread.

GW2 can then work out if its worth the hassle of their 'unsupported' approval.

everyone's a winner.

(boringly I don't see why squads of little tanks for loads of people isn't a mmorpg if everyone plays together, but its been a while)

[Miko.4158]

> @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said:

> > @"Miko.4158" said:

> > .

> > > Also, other games do way more than simply track the dps of users, yet they didn't do anything to change that either.

> >

> > more than , but not inclusive?, its your quote/

> > most command and conquer type games have dps type meters.

> >

> > regardless of gw2 interpretation of data protection, they still have a duty of care to their players, and from the thread's content and complaints its clear its being mis-used.

> >

> >

> >

>

> Anet does care for their players hence why their players Data is safeguarded and nothing of the player’s personal data is being misused or transmitted.

>

> Players can complain all they want, doesn’t mean their complaints are valid or have any substance, especially when they aren’t backed by anything.

 

Loads of GW2 is toxic, I wouldn't let my kids play untill they started shaving. The ingame toxity seems to be because people think 'king of swords' isn't a real person so they can say what they like. which is a mistake. I can well believe the DPS meter is the icing on the cake for a fair amount of trolls.

[BlaqueFyre.5678]

> @"Miko.4158" said:

> > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said:

> > > @"Miko.4158" said:

> > > .

> > > > Also, other games do way more than simply track the dps of users, yet they didn't do anything to change that either.

> > >

> > > more than , but not inclusive?, its your quote/

> > > most command and conquer type games have dps type meters.

> > >

> > > regardless of gw2 interpretation of data protection, they still have a duty of care to their players, and from the thread's content and complaints its clear its being mis-used.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> >

> > Anet does care for their players hence why their players Data is safeguarded and nothing of the player’s personal data is being misused or transmitted.

> >

> > Players can complain all they want, doesn’t mean their complaints are valid or have any substance, especially when they aren’t backed by anything.

>

> Loads of GW2 is toxic, I wouldn't let my kids play untill they started shaving. The ingame toxity seems to be because people think 'king of swords' isn't a real person so they can say what they like. which is a mistake. I can well believe the DPS meter is the icing on the cake for a fair amount of trolls.

 

Toxicity existed long before Meters and is arguably worse since it wasn’t even relavent to the content or reasons, and this topic isn’t even about Toxicity so please keep to the topic of the thread and not attempt to keep derailing.

[Ashen.2907]

> @"Miko.4158" said:

> > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said:

> > > @"Miko.4158" said:

> > > .

> > > > Also, other games do way more than simply track the dps of users, yet they didn't do anything to change that either.

> > >

> > > more than , but not inclusive?, its your quote/

> > > most command and conquer type games have dps type meters.

> > >

> > > regardless of gw2 interpretation of data protection, they still have a duty of care to their players, and from the thread's content and complaints its clear its being mis-used.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> >

> > Anet does care for their players hence why their players Data is safeguarded and nothing of the player’s personal data is being misused or transmitted.

> >

> > Players can complain all they want, doesn’t mean their complaints are valid or have any substance, especially when they aren’t backed by anything.

>

> Loads of GW2 is toxic, I wouldn't let my kids play untill they started shaving. The ingame toxity seems to be because people think 'king of swords' isn't a real person so they can say what they like. which is a mistake. I can well believe the DPS meter is the icing on the cake for a fair amount of trolls.

 

Internet anonymity contributing to a less civil experience is not unique to GW2, or even gaming.

 

I have found the existence of an objective measure of performance, DPS meters, to decrease toxicity.

[Miko.4158]

I would argue most of the attempts on this thread to derail, are based on "I'm not doing anything illegal"

with a fair amount of of other users opinions don't count.

same users who obviously use dps meters.

[IndigoSundown.5419]

I don't use a DPS meter. I am highly unlikely to ever use a DPS meter. I am unlikely to ever join a group that advertises any kind of requirement. It does not take using a DPS meter to reject arguments which don't stand up to unbiased scrutiny.

 

The debate about privacy _is_ the derail. The debate about privacy has nothing to do with combat data. If there is a privacy issue, it is that ANet allows other users to see the actual online identifier -- our user ID. Even that is a sketchy argument at best, as only ANet can connect that identifier to our person. Either way, the User ID is not the subject of this thread.

 

The subject of this thread is whether ANet should require ARCDPS to provide a flag so that players who don't have their software can ID players who do. This would provide an advantage to meter-abstainers that meter-users do not have.

 

As things work now, both pro and con groups have two options:

 

+ play content in a group with other players to discover whether those other players have preferences they prefer to avoid

+ advertise their preferences and hope that other players respect them

 

Likewise, both groups can use a similar process if they choose the first option, or others disrespect their expressed preferences. Once the unwanted behavior occurs, they can leave or kick.

[AliamRationem.5172]

> @"Miko.4158" said:

> I would argue most of the attempts on this thread to derail, are based on "I'm not doing anything illegal"

> with a fair amount of of other users opinions don't count.

> same users who obviously use dps meters.

 

Are we reading the same thread? Because it looks like the OP and most of those in support of that position keep making dubious claims that cause others to respond explaining why there is no violation of any law here. As always, you're welcome to your own opinion, but not your own facts.

[Korvous.6340]

Good god, this isn't personal data. There is nothing revealing anything private here.

I totally understand wanting to not have people judging you but the truth of it is that this sounds like a l2p issue. Do high damage and play well and no-one's going to say anything. If you want to avoid "toxic" people simply play with your guild mates or friends. I agree that -as a few others have said- you can also simply advertise that you're looking for a relaxed run of whatever content.

 

I have no idea why you're even trying to bring the law into this. It's just so amazingly excessive. The vast majority of mmorpg's have addons including the use of dps meters so this is far from an exception. This entire argument causes my eye to roll hard.

 

Tl:dr: Play as you'd like to play with friends or learn to play adequately well.

[TexZero.7910]

> @"IndigoSundown.5419" said:

> The subject of this thread is whether ANet should require ARCDPS to provide a flag so that players who don't have their software can ID players who do. This would provide an advantage to meter-abstainers that meter-users do not have. As it is, both groups have two options:

>

> + play content in a group with other players to discover whether those other players have preferences they prefer to avoid

> + advertise their preferences and hope that other players respect them

 

 

Not really, it would do the exact opposite. The moment that flag is turned on is the moment people just remove said people without giving them a chance. It also just opens the floodgate for even more petty drama and name calling.

 

As is in the current system, even if you're not the alpha as far as dps goes, so long as you do your job the raid will go on without a hitch.

If however, you're not and this new flag system goes into place and you aren't using a meter good luck getting into groups because in your effort to do group content you've indirectly labeled yourself as unwilling to work with others as that's the stigma that will be applied just or not.

[IndigoSundown.5419]

> @"TexZero.7910" said:

> > @"IndigoSundown.5419" said:

> > The subject of this thread is whether ANet should require ARCDPS to provide a flag so that players who don't have their software can ID players who do. This would provide an advantage to meter-abstainers that meter-users do not have. As it is, both groups have two options:

> >

> > + play content in a group with other players to discover whether those other players have preferences they prefer to avoid

> > + advertise their preferences and hope that other players respect them

>

>

> Not really, it would do the exact opposite. The moment that flag is turned on is the moment people just remove said people without giving them a chance. It also just opens the floodgate for even more petty drama and name calling.

>

> As is in the current system, even if you're not the alpha as far as dps goes, so long as you do your job the raid will go on without a hitch.

> If however, you're not and this new flag system goes into place and you aren't using a meter good luck getting into groups because in your effort to do group content you've indirectly labeled yourself as unwilling to work with others as that's the stigma that will be applied just or not.

 

You seem to have mistaken my points about the current iteration of grouping with a prediction about how it would be with the OP's desired flag. I've edited the original to hopefully be more clear.

[GrubySzymek.1362]

All of the above would have been avoided if dps meter, no matter 3rd party or built in, was opt-in.

[Feanor.2358]

> @"Miko.4158" said:

> I would argue most of the attempts on this thread to derail, are based on "I'm not doing anything illegal"

> with a fair amount of of other users opinions don't count.

> same users who obviously use dps meters.

 

Right now, you're doing *exactly* the same you've been reprimanding a moment ago. You're not looking at the persons behind, you're looking at the generic label "dps meter user" and are being toxic toward them. Ironic, isn't it?

 

In my experience, this isn't something you can avoid. People have different expectations and conflicts are inevitable. The online anonymity makes toxicity easier because you're being toxic to people outside your social circle and therefore your toxicity has no real social consequences for you. It's very easy to slip for it, especially when under the effects of an emotion. Everyone does it. I think that's just one more fact of life people will have to accept.

 

[Feanor.2358]

> @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> All of the above would have been avoided if dps meter, no matter 3rd party or built in, was opt-in.

 

It is opt-in. You don't want your dps checked? You don't join the party. Simple. Arc doesn't show the dps of random other players around, only those in your party/squad.

Being any more opt-in would be counterproductive. People would start *requiring* it to keep using it as a filter. And make no mistake, a filter will always be used. It's a manifestation of toxicity, but it is just a reaction to another behavior. One which is unintentionally, yet equally, toxic - joining a party where you can't pull your own weight. This is the underlying reason for toxicity, and it isn't going to change.