An Eye on the Deadeye

[kash.9213]

> @"Storm Blade.9638" said:

> after testing some stuff and playing the new DE it feels super clunky and complicated in comparison to the previous DE. When i kneel i want i miss the intsant stealth now i ve to use a stupid kombo or an dodge, which in a long fight u ll eventually run out of stamina. Pre DE was easy and simply more fun atleast for me.

 

People scramble in WvW when they hear a Mark go up on them but you should only have to chase in melee range to ensure initiative hits for like half a minute or so before going back into range to do the Deadeye thing again. That's unless they stand there on their frontline and let you rifle them.

[Zalavaaris.5329]

My damage with rifle was absolutely crippled... like from 30k down to 16k. And it just feels aweful.

[Aistos.5174]

Seriously?? Today I was looking forward to play with my new geared DE, but as it is now I will not play a minute with it.

If i wanted snipers cover to camp, i would have played SWTOR. And what have you done with death judgement - horrible.

I'm sorry but not a fan of it at all. I really didn't buy POF for smth like this -.- Maybe see you again next winter...

[Vulcaruss.9567]

Congratulations Arena Net, you single handedly made the Deadeyes Rifle completely useless, On the plus side? Every other weapon is completely more Viable (Aside from P/P which has no stealth gains on its own) More Viable thanks to Malice bonus's.

 

So where should I begin? Oh yes, lets start with what you replaced Deaths Judgement with. Snipers Cover. You literally copied Smoke Screen and made it into a 5 second Initiative skill. I can't believe I was expecting something more creative out of you...

 

The New Deaths Judgment. Is such a downgrade... You've effectively reduced a Deadeye's DPS with this, now most every Deadeye will spam Three Round Burst, go into stealth just for Deaths Judgement.

 

On top of that the Silent Scope trait. You call this more intuitive and fluid? I'd like to go back to my statement on my previous post where I said you were Literally going to make us jump through hoops to gain stealth but nahh, you're just going to force us to roll around in the dirt to gain camouflage..

 

From what I can tell this update doesn't do what you said it was intended to do. Make Malice's purpose more useful and known? No you've just made it worthless, and now are forced to take Stealth if we want to make use of it. Not every Thief uses or Requires Stealth to survive. It just feels like your Pigeon Holing us into using Stealth now if we play Deadeye.

 

Just admit you F'd up and change it back to the way it was. Course thats too hopeful of me, Remember when you changed the Elite skill unlock to level 35? Cause I do, everyone complained at you, so what did you do? Moved it to level 31 cause putting it back at Level 30 would of been too much trouble and cause you don't want to look like you make mistakes. Good Job on nailing another class Arena Net... (Sarcasm Abound.)

[Scud.5067]

Really enjoying Power Deadeye with Might generation/sharing. Have had to load up with 3 stealth skills but otherwise great fun.

[Kallist.5917]

> @"Scud.5067" said:

> Really enjoying Power Deadeye with Might generation/sharing. Have had to load up with 3 stealth skills but otherwise great fun.

 

The funny part is that they didn't alter that part of DE.

[Aistos.5174]

Thanks Vulcaruss for this statement, it‘s exactly what I was thinking. The only thing for A-Net to do now: Change it back, please! It would be so nice to have my favourite game back...

[kash.9213]

> @"Vulcaruss.9567" said:

> On top of that the Silent Scope trait. You call this more intuitive and fluid? I'd like to go back to my statement on my previous post where I said you were Literally going to make us jump through hoops to gain stealth but nahh, you're just going to force us to roll around in the dirt to gain camouflage..

 

It would be nice if daredevil runes had ferocity or something instead of toughness otherwise it would be a bright spot of synergy in this update even if it just bites off early daredevil builds style.

 

[Turk.5460]

Loving the changes so far in WvW! This is great, I might actually take D/P as my secondary to Rifle now. It previously didn't perform as well as S/P for my playstyle.

 

Haven't messed around with any Condi build yet, but might give it a go.

[Vulcaruss.9567]

But on a different topic here in relation to this one. Arena Net keeps changing things cause of the reasons of. Being too Confusing, Too Complex, And not enough Explanation as to the purposes, uses, and methods of the Professions, Weapons, Mechanics, Skills, and Traits.

 

Well Boy howdy do I have a solution for you boys and girls! Its called: The Master System. In this system the player can go to an NPC who is their class Master, kinda like how we had those class trainers back in the beginning of the game that sold of the trait books? Only this time these NPCs are portrayed as the players actual teacher. Within this the "Master" will have a ton of tutorials, both in instanced and text based information where the master will explain the basic mechanics of your Core Class, and Elite Specializations. As well as explain skills, weapons, traits, and class mechanics.

 

My Vision of this is voiced NPCs who instance you for training, talk to you, and give instructions in an instanced zone of the Starter Areas where the Book Trainers use to be. It would both be informational and fill the empty void of those locations where Arena Net literally stripped them of purpose when they did the "new player experience" stuff...

 

But hey, this is all speculation... And probably more Effort than Arena Net would be willing to go to make the classes understood... But this is my two cents on the Matter of Profession Confusion.

[eldrjth.7384]

After playing around with DE for a little bit theres are a few things I like and some I dont. I like the change to M7 in that you regain ini, I like the dodge roll into stealth mechanic. I like how weapon sets other than rifle can gain bonuses from malice. (my P/P build got a slight nerf in both durability and dmg though.)

 

However, the drawback with the system is that weapons that dont have built in stealth eg. pistol offhand and SB **must** take the bqobk traitline and then malice is mostly useless even though its the **elite defining** mechanic - its only ever useful for m7 builds and it makes camping at full malice seem extremely wasteful. Previously, the innate 3% dmg/malice buff gave the player reward for gaining malice where now there is none. There needs to be some way to spend/use malice for weapon sets that dont stealth. Maybe it can be a dmg buff or something more interesting but I doubt interesting is going to happen now the these changes have been cemented in.

 

The more interesting idea is to have malice operate as a charge up meter and once it reaches max a player can **dodge roll** to prim the stealth attack even though you didnt stealth. This is like how the mirage ambush mechanic operates but requires a longer build up. After you perform the stealth attack you lose all malice. This makes using malice accessible to all weapon sets without needing to equip stealth skills which is a high opportunity cost, and also makes taking **either** M7 or bqobk viable.

 

[Hikarifuxi.4761]

I never been a main Thief player, but when the Deadeye was added it felt to me like "my thing". All of a sudden I had a hella lot fun with my thief and I really enjoyed it.

The changes now pretty much kills this completely. I thought I might just need to get used to it but.. As many others said already, the "forced stealth" just to do this one specific attack, feels clunky, and weird. And also all this Malice stuff as it is now is rather complicated x_x

Until yesterday you knew: "Ah, max Malice! I am going to do XY now" But now it is gone on abilities that I don't even realize anymore I had max Malice lol

 

I can just join the ones that want it changed back, please ._."

I mean crying and complaining about changes will always happen and is one thing.. But this changes the whole feeling of the entire elite x_x It is not like just changing a few small things on Mesmer focus abilities *coughPhantasmalWardencough*

[Vulcaruss.9567]

Yeah like Hikarifuxi said, this whole Stealth Centered Deadeye, fundamentally changes the whole focus and point of the Deadeye Elite Specialization. It takes focus away from the Rifle, which is the professions defining item. and focuses it more on stealth, the whole classes signature ability. The Point of the Deadeye was to have Melee Level striking power, at a max ranged distance. While at the same time reducing Mobility.

 

This change makes Deadeye a complete chore to play. Malice has had it's purpose as the key mechanic neutered to the point of a drugged cat after the day at the vet. (Cat Refferences!) A change to this degree is class breaking levels of crazy. I don't think any class has had a complete 180 on the functions of its personal energy mechanic since Warrior Adrenaline got cut to being lost immediately on combat drop.

[Cameryn.5310]

So I don't understand this at ALL.

 

The dev Robert mentioned last week that in his opinion, P/P Deadeyes in PVE mode were "better".

 

I'm playing this as a P/P deadeye and in my signet build there's absolutely nothing whatsoever that I'm using that allows me to use Malice stacks. I have to remove a signet and use a particular stealth skill to do so? That's pretty, um, random. Even then I get stealth every, what, 24 seconds?

 

So the signature reason for malice is useless to me now.

 

Very disappointed.

[Sir Vincent III.1286]

> @"Gaile Gray.6029" said:

> **A message from Robert Gee, Guild Wars 2 Systems Team:**

> In order to add more interactivity to malice, we are changing the way malice is gained. Malice no longer will build over time but instead will be gained through dealing damage with initiative skills.

>

 

> @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:

> [iMO, DE Mark should ea passive and auto-applied to my target after hitting them 3 times. This way it doesn't ruin the Thief rhythm.](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/499418#Comment_499418 "IMO, DE Mark should ea passive and auto-applied to my target after hitting them 3 times. This way it doesn't ruin the Thief rhythm.")

>

 

It seems that we both agree that this is how it should be however I do not agree that Malice should be applied only when using Initiative skills. Until the cost of each skill is reduced or give refunds like Unload, this will not work well for the profession. Malice should still build up over time IMO, just change how DE Mark is applied.

 

The cheapest Initiave costs 2 initiative, which means, you are making Malice generate longer if you also add the attack animation. For all other skills that costs 4-6 initiatives, that is a very expensive Malice. Once we reach the maximum Malice, then what? We have no initiatives left.

 

> @"Gaile Gray.6029" said:

> Stealth attacks will consume all your current malice when striking your mark to grant bonus effects based on the amount of malice consumed.

 

Not good. Try playing a Condition Build and tell us if this is a good idea preferably using P/D where stealth attacks are used to stack bleed. Each stealth attack will flush the Malice stacks which will be counterproductive.

 

> **The Perfect Shot**

>

> With these changes, the iconic Deadeye malice skill, Death's Judgment, is also becoming a stealth attack. This gave us room to make some adjustments to the rest of the rifle skills in order to address its somewhat stale gameplay loop. Kneel and the Silent Scope trait have been changed to allow for more flexible kneeling and stealth while Sniper's Cover has been totally reworked into a new defensive skill that fills the slot previously occupied by Death's Judgement. This new skill creates a defensive barrier while kneeling that can combo with other thief abilities. When taken together, these changes help to give each rifle skill a more defined purpose and allow rifle wielders to handle a larger variety of combat situations.

>

 

The problem is the casting time on kneeling, not the kneel itself.

The problem is kneeling is not canceled after dodging.

The problem is kneeling requires activation that locks the DE in place instead of making it a passive state/stance.

- For instance, if the kneel is activated, the DE will kneel when they stop moving but able to move around normally. Skills flip automatically to kneel skills when the DE stopped moving.

 

> **Reloading Traits**

>

 

I want to see traits that grants Cantrip CDR.

 

 

[babazhook.6805]

Tests so far.

 

P/d Condition DE. A definite boost. Can now drop TR and not worry about the lost Confusion or uncatachable as the Torment off sneak attack is real. Trait up with trappers Runes and one trap +respite. You can pretty well have stealth in every utility slot if wished. While it can be a little slow building the malice, it well worth building that malice.

 

P/P s/d Boon duration build. The build I was using had high boon duration prior to these changes and now pushes 100 percent. It hardly like this amount of duration needed but this thing runs around with permanent might to 25 stacks, permanent swiftness/vigor/fury/regen/ and when there a steal of boons or a MALI 7 kickin you are swimming in boons. I really have not been too worried about the Stealth Attack and malice as of yet but I am really not noticing any real loss in damage. Fattening up the number of times I can dodge after a sneak attack might be worth a go so I might use more CnD

 

Still going to test out the RIFLE build and the Hybrid in Grieving. D/P uberpower also looks promising.

 

As to gameplay itself, while early, I am rather enjoying it and what I have tried so far. I DO Like the added INI sources in DE which might well allow me to drop TR in other builds.

[Cameryn.5310]

More fun here. Dual pistols Deadeye... the ONLY use I have for Malice is when forced to use a stealth cantrip, and even then, it applies a little torment in one fell swoop. I'm a power build deadeye... one condition for all that? Really?

 

Why doesn't the Payback trait work (in giving you stealth) for ALL weapons, not just rifles?

 

I've never been so let down by a skills update in all the years I've played this game. My thief was my main character, and now he's completely useless.

[Volrath.1473]

Just got home from work and finally tried it out.

It's not as bad as i thought!

 

is far worse... BUT there is something good that i personally get from this patch. more free time to get ready for the next expansion! Battle for Azeroth

[Phosphorite.6192]

I tried it out a bit now and my d/d pure condi DE flows much much better now with almost no empty ini bar. No idea if the DPS is higher or lower than before bc I don't remember my pre-patch dps but it feels very nice.

I don't really use the new stealth skills at all, except when I switch to p/d but that doesn't happen much. I'm happy with the changes so far.

[Astyrah.4015]

> @"Vulcaruss.9567" said:

> Good Job on nailing another class Arena Net... (Sarcasm Abound.)

 

they just about nailed the DE coffin for me... very sad about the changes...but i will still play thief and hope they change it back or rework it again

 

 

[Kherae.2109]

I have to say, I'm very disappointed with most of the deadeye changes. Here's why:

1) Rifle skills. death's judgement was iconic, yes. It FELT right, right where it was. You lined up for a perfect shot and decimated a target. Now? Rifle plays about the same as dual pistols. Spam 3 for large damage. It's disappointing, and it plays quite braindead. It is also unsatisfying. For me, the height of playing my deadeye on big targets was lining up those beautiful 20-30k crits. Sure, I only got 2-3 of them every 20-something seconds, but they were gorgeous. Now? Wall of bullets. Spam three-round burst until your wrists get tired. Unengaging, uninteresting, boring. If I wanted that playstyle, I would be using dual pistols. Now, it's forced on me.

2) Malice. As a mechanic, has a clear role now...buffing stealth attacks. Almost nothing more. We can consume it via stealth attacks (requiring the elite or other stealth skills), or via Mercy for initiative. For my build, it's largely a useless mechanic, and somewhat disappointing. No more benefitting stolen skills, or increase to overall damage output. No more benefit from carefully timed burst. Optimal usage is "when available." Also of note, I somewhat preferred how it worked prior to the "refresh to keep malice" change. That change also took skill out, and created some thematic...clunkiness...with Maleficent Seven.

3) Overall utility shifts. I actually loved having cursed bullet as my stealth attack. Good boon strip for when I am facing permanent protection targets and the like. I took Hide in Shadows and Shadow Meld, and where needed the Trickery trait Bountiful Theft. Now I only have one boon strip, unless I take the changed Shadow Gust, and it's a trait that's tied to Steal/Deadeye's Mark.

4) Traits. Maleficent Seven requires using Mercy or letting the Mark expire to make proper use of, and doing so with mercy feeds more into the "spam three-round burst" aspect. Doesn't feel right. I understand why it works the way it does, but I feel like it would be better to allow it to trigger on refresh as well, even if it's only to a lesser degree. Also, look at One in the Chamber. When your mark expires you lose stolen skills, an unobvious fact that isn't stated anywhere; you only see it by playtesting. Now look at the cantrip Mercy. It's an interaction that makes you question what will happen, because it's not entirely clear. This needs addressing.

5) Skills. The new stealth skills feel tacked on, on the interface, particularly daggers. The tooltip wall doesn't fit on my 16:9 screen. It also STILL doesn't show more than the default first skill in chains on the hero panel.

 

Cons out of the way, some things I like about the deadeye changes:

1) Traits. Malicious Intent is now much less awkward. Not going to ever use it, though. Premeditation/payback: very good changes; they help me keep permanent max might stacks. Yay! Silent scope: another one I'll never use, but it's good that it's no longer a kneel replacement. Fire for Effect: I have perma-fury. Now everyone else can have it, too!

2) Skills. Kneel no longer has the clunky (and illogical) charge system, or the (equally silly) condition removal on standing up.

 

TL;DR: keep kneel as it is, give us back death's judgement (replace three round burst with it!) as a normal attack, even as it is now. Ditch the "machine gun" playstyle and leave that for dual pistols, where it belongs. Give rifles back their sniper theme, and I'll be happy.

[Zhou.3605]

Thank you for now "REQUIRING" me to use stealth to use a mechanic other than stealth. I am so happy that now I have no choice but add stealth to my build.

 

[Zarfall.6521]

I came back to GW2 when PoF released because I was excited to see a sniper playstyle, something very few MMOs offer and something I wholeheartedly enjoyed, setting up for that perfect shot, that huge burst of damage before resetting again. There was a flow to it, and it was simple to understand, didn't have to think too hard, but not to the point of just ham-fisting all the buttons like a greatsword guardian. Now it's become an in depth dance just to get the same, if not worse, dps, and having to choose between whether I want to deal damage or survive because my main source of damage is now stealth based, and my main source of stealth is dodging, and since you don't deal damage when the boss' big ability has killed you... survival wins every time. This kind of playstyle is _exactly why I didn't play thief in the first place_. All this because the play style was 'stale.' Had you considered, that maybe, just maybe, not every class needs to have starcraft-like reactions to feel enjoyable? That some people enjoy simplicity?!

 

Thanks for giving me a clear decision on whether or not I should play this or Battle for Azeroth. I had hopes, Anet. I really did. If you need me, I'll be off fighting for the Alliance, giving my money and patronage to your competitor.

[Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497]

> @"DragonSlayer.1087" said:

> > @"Arakiel GhostEyes.4598" said:

> > Can't wait to do even less dmg and be unable to build malice cause of evade spam, stealth, general mesmeryness or just being out of range and obstructed all the time.

>

> OMG This! >.>

> Unless they increase the range and make the projectile faster....

 

Nah it's fine. I love the changes so far. It's a bit more engaging, and you're no longer shoehorned into rifle.

 

Daredevil passively gets a bigger DPS boost from traits. But Deadeye was all about burst and gets a decent damage reduction for free.

 

Too me, this is fair.

[CattyWampus.9721]

Im going to be simple and quick about this. Because I dont want to go on a long anger filled rant about how bad these changes are. Dear Arena net please give us back the old Deadeye we had these changes were unnecessary and unwanted. I think the other posts here after the patch attest to that. Other than that. all I can say is hopefully you listen to the community and not pull a (35lvl elite to a 31 if you get my meaning). Just put Deadeye back and leave it alone, It was fine how it was. Go rework something that needs it. Im going to go play GW1 and hope it blows away like the bad dream it feels like it is.