The State of PvE balance

[Bearbrunt.4196]

There has been some interesting discourse going on in the wake of today's update.

I thought I'd share this comment from a reddit thread, written in response to initial backlash about the **Meteor Shower change**:

 

> It's about time. PvE balance has essentially been in the same state for years, and I love that they're shaking things up by _finally_ nerfing the most blatantly OP ability (let's hope epidemic is next).

 

> Hopefully this helps close the damage gap there's been for such a long time between eles and other classes. Looking forward to seeing _**diverse**_ top benchmarks and more **build diversity** overall. Let's let people play what they _really want to play_. So many classes/specs get [pooped] on because of how long-standing the imbalances have been.

 

> If Anet keeps up with changes like this, evens the playing field in PvE and keeps things interesting, I wouldn't take as many breaks from the game as I usually do. This also gives me a reason to recommend the game to more people.

 

Being a necro main for the past 4 years, I read that comment and couldn't help but feel the same.

 

For a long time, I've been discouraged by many players from playing necro because of its lack of potential DPS in end-game content. I've even been discouraged from playing necro because it's "reputation is tarnished." "Go re-role weaver" and "Oh, another necro meme" become typical jargon one reads just before getting kicked right after joining a raid/fractal group as a necro. In general, the game has become a lot less tolerable for many players that want to play necro (and a few other specs/builds, like power rev, etc.) and refuse such "advice." These imbalances, along with the toxicity they promote are the **prime** reasons I lose my interest in the game after returning for only about a week or so.

 

Of course, there's always going to be a class/spec that has #1 DPS potential. I'm happy to see ele's get a substantial nerf like this, not because they're the top benchmark, but because they're so _**far above the average DPS of every other class/spec**_ . There aren't very many situations where an Elementalist _isn't_ useful. For years, they have consistently benchmarked the highest of all classes. You are pretty much guaranteed a semi-decent dps when you pick a weaver in a pug, not because the player might be good, but because a weaver's potential damage output is so much higher than most other builds.

 

The Necromancer is in a position pretty much opposite the Elementalist. Besides the rare encounter that a necro is forced into going condi and using epidemic (severely overtuned), there aren't very many situations that they're particularly useful or can pull as much damage. For years, they have consistently benchmarked the lowest of all classes, with a damage potential that is _**far below the average DPS of every other class.**_ If you pug a reaper, the general consensus is that they will do bad even if they are decent players. So, I'm (kind of) happy that certain necro builds got a slight buff today, not because it's substantial, but because at this point I'll take anything I can get. Anet has provided necros with some minor utility in the past few updates, but it has hardly made up for the discrepancy in a necro's damage compared to other classes.

 

Despite what Anet have done with eles and necros, the other classes during this expansion seem to have been on a relatively level playing field when taking a look at the most recent benchmarks. All classes have been able to pull at least 31k on avg for small hit box. Necro hasn't been able to push much past 29k for either reaper or scourge -- and this is a necro at their _best_. Weaver's, on the other hand, have been easily pulling 35 to 37k, with substantial increases to 42-46k on large hitboxes (something no other classes besides warrior can come close to). All this begs the questions: Will the Necromancer always be the under-dog? Are Elementalists always going to be flicking their staves in our faces?

 

Do you think Anet is making an effort to level the playing field? Or were the changes to non-aquatic skills more of the same? The recent strides made to split PvP/PvE skills have given me hope, and with today's surprise changes I'm slightly more hopeful that PvE balance is moving in the right direction.

[mauried.5608]

Put your hand up if you would like to see the class / classes that you like playing the most get nerfed, so that there is better balance with all the other classes that you dont like playing.

 

[Bearbrunt.4196]

> @"mauried.5608" said:

> Put your hand up if you would like to see the class / classes that you like playing the most get nerfed, so that there is better balance with all the other classes that you dont like playing.

>

~*raises hand*~

If necro were in the position that elementalist were in, I would be all for a nerf if it were justified. Scourge _was_ in that position at the beginning of the expansion before the shade fix.

It wouldn't necessarily have to be a nerf though. There's always the option of _buffing_ other classes too. Anet have shown they can scale enemy health to match new numbers.

[theory.3580]

If it makes you feel better, my raid static has recently swapped to be: 2 chrono, 1 druid, 1 warrior, 6 scourge. Epidemic bouncing in an organized group, coordinated by voice communication, is ridiculously powerful. Necro is secretly massively overpowered, not underpowered. It just takes a lot of group coordination to unlock its full power.

[Voltekka.2375]

> @"Bearbrunt.4196" said:

> > @"mauried.5608" said:

> > Put your hand up if you would like to see the class / classes that you like playing the most get nerfed, so that there is better balance with all the other classes that you dont like playing.

> >

> ~*raises hand*~

> If necro were in the position that elementalist were in, I would be all for a nerf if it were justified. Scourge _was_ in that position at the beginning of the expansion before the shade fix.

> It wouldn't necessarily have to be a nerf though. There's always the option of _buffing_ other classes too. Anet have shown they can scale enemy health to match new numbers.

 

I would love to see necro be dps-cpomparable to weaver/ele. But necro will have to have much lower base hp, become more of a glass cannon. Weaver/ele is high risk high reward. Necro - dont get me wrong, I main necro- is a low risk class. You can see it in fractals, where full necro groups - even bad players- will breeze through most fractals, whereas a bad weaver will be permadowned (99cm and 100cm are exceptions). So, I propose a big overhaul in necro class, if its dps and its role should be comparable to the rotation-risk of a weaver. An overhaul of necro is long overdue, anyway.

[LucianDK.8615]

Yes, Scourges needs to be nerfed.

[Feanor.2358]

Fun fact: Epidemic *was* and still is, the most blatantly OP ability in the game.

 

Another fun fact: Equal damage numbers do not create diversity in the dps role when they come with different drawbacks. Close the damage gaps and Weaver will be useless.

[Raizel.8175]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> Fun fact: Epidemic *was* and still is, the most blatantly OP ability in the game.

>

> Another fun fact: Equal damage numbers do not create diversity in the dps role when they come with different drawbacks. Close the damage gaps and Weaver will be useless.

 

I don't think so. Even if damage were to be more balanced, Weaver still had the advantage of huge burst/cleave AoE-damage which is quite good on several encounters. Also it's direct and not conditional damage and people still have some weird thing going on with how they need pdps for certain bosses and stuff like ramp up times and bla. I still think that Weaver would still have a spot.

[Feanor.2358]

> @"Raizel.8175" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > Fun fact: Epidemic *was* and still is, the most blatantly OP ability in the game.

> >

> > Another fun fact: Equal damage numbers do not create diversity in the dps role when they come with different drawbacks. Close the damage gaps and Weaver will be useless.

>

> I don't think so. Even if damage were to be more balanced, Weaver still had the advantage of huge burst/cleave AoE-damage which is quite good on several encounters. Also it's direct and not conditional damage and people still have some weird thing going on with how they need pdps for certain bosses and stuff like ramp up times and bla. I still think that Weaver would still have a spot.

 

Read what I wrote again. If there were no damage differences, you'd be much better off picking a more reliable power class like DH or Holo. Why risk getting interrupted all the time, screwing the much more complex rotation or having your conjures stolen? Even assuming you *can* play it perfectly and end with the same results, how would your teammates know that? Why wouldn't they prefer to get another damage dealer that is much easier to play and therefore statistically more likely to be played well?

[Xantaria.8726]

I agree to Feanor.2358. The very reason weaver does more dps is simply the fact that his performance is hard to pull off. In a realistic raid scenario, you need to build the team around the weaver in order to bring those benchmarknumbers, which is in most cases only possible in statics. Otherwise in most pug groups i saw a weaver he was below our bs on the fifth place in the meter. Demanding a nerf to a class with one of the hardest rotation, which has several disadvantages and almost none cc or group support without sacrificing an incredible amount of dps is silly. There would be no more reason to play weaver, cause you could then rather switch to dh or holo if you need power dps, cause with them you would then have more group support, cc and a easy rotation which is hard to screw up.

 

Pls stay to all the fact instead of crying around that a specific build does the most dmg (and yeah even 10k above second place) without looking at the contras of that build.

I have no problem with buffing certain builds like power necro though.

[Xca.9721]

The thing is:

 

Ele = hard rotation, squishy, almost no sustain, bad cc, no team buffs

Scourge = no rotation (just faceroll keyboard), do all your damage by pressing 1 skill (epidemic), give barriers so u can ignore mechanics, good cc, boon strip if needed

 

Dont expect to do the same dps as a weaver when you give sustain to your group and there is no skill required to play that class

[gateless gate.8406]

Coming from WoW, it's very strange to see such a massive gap between DPS in this game.

 

Here's the breakdown of DPS classes in my previous MMO: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/17#

There is only a 15% difference between the best and worst specs. Removing the absolute best and absolute worst, that difference shrinks to just 10%. Compare that to the 24% difference between a GW2 Necro's 29k and a Weaver's 36k. For kicks, compare it to the 52% (!!!) difference between 29k and 44k. You cannot have a class doing 52% more damage than another.

 

Arguments like "class X is harder to play than Y so therefore it NEEDS to do more DPS" is a fallacy, as (1) any gameplay difficulty is often both overstated and easily overcome by good players, and (2) raid groups will always demand the best and reject the worst, especially when you have sites like metabattle and tools like DPS meters. And that's really the most toxic effect of egregious balancing: Players who have spent possibly hundreds of hours on Necro are simply locked out of a significant portion of game content.

[Oldirtbeard.9834]

> @"gateless gate.8406" said:

> Coming from WoW, it's very strange to see such a massive gap between DPS in this game.

>

> Here's the breakdown of DPS classes in my previous MMO: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/17#

> There is only a 15% difference between the best and worst specs. Removing the absolute best and absolute worst, that difference shrinks to just 10%. Compare that to the 24% difference between a GW2 Necro's 29k and a Weaver's 36k. For kicks, compare it to the 52% (!!!) difference between 29k and 44k. You cannot have a class doing 52% more damage than another.

>

> Arguments like "class X is harder to play than Y so therefore it NEEDS to do more DPS" is a fallacy, as (1) any gameplay difficulty is often both overstated and easily overcome by good players, and (2) raid groups will always demand the best and reject the worst, especially when you have sites like metabattle and tools like DPS meters. And that's really the most toxic effect of egregious balancing: Players who have spent possibly hundreds of hours on Necro are simply locked out of a significant portion of game content.

 

This is why I only Raid in games that take balance seriously, I never delve deeper here than T1 Fractals/Story Dungeons/Open World because I can't take Raids and Top Tier Fractals seriously in this game if the Devs can't take it seriously either by doing proper balance.

 

There's enough GW2 does right to keep me interested though so what does it matter if I miss a new Raid release every 9 Months to a Year (I imagine it gets pretty boring doing the same 4 bosses over and over for that amount of time, when I get to do new Open World content every 2.5 months).

[Feanor.2358]

> @"gateless gate.8406" said:

> Coming from WoW, it's very strange to see such a massive gap between DPS in this game.

>

> Here's the breakdown of DPS classes in my previous MMO: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/17#

> There is only a 15% difference between the best and worst specs. Removing the absolute best and absolute worst, that difference shrinks to just 10%. Compare that to the 24% difference between a GW2 Necro's 29k and a Weaver's 36k. For kicks, compare it to the 52% (!!!) difference between 29k and 44k. You cannot have a class doing 52% more damage than another.

>

> Arguments like "class X is harder to play than Y so therefore it NEEDS to do more DPS" is a fallacy, as (1) any gameplay difficulty is often both overstated and easily overcome by good players, and (2) raid groups will always demand the best and reject the worst, especially when you have sites like metabattle and tools like DPS meters. And that's really the most toxic effect of egregious balancing: Players who have spent possibly hundreds of hours on Necro are simply locked out of a significant portion of game content.

 

Yeah, right. Then why everyone stacked scourges in ERP 2? Because they were locked out?

[Yamazuki.6073]

DPS Elementalist is essentially the traditional glass cannon spec, nearly nothing at all but dps. If anyone really cared about balance they would want glass cannon Ele to be the highest, because the moment something else is equal they become useless in comparison due to many other options having their dps while offering group buffs, cc, and other forms of utility. For every dps spec to have equal dps then they all have to be given the same amount of group buffs, cc, and utility.

[Raizel.8175]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > @"Raizel.8175" said:

> > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > Fun fact: Epidemic *was* and still is, the most blatantly OP ability in the game.

> > >

> > > Another fun fact: Equal damage numbers do not create diversity in the dps role when they come with different drawbacks. Close the damage gaps and Weaver will be useless.

> >

> > I don't think so. Even if damage were to be more balanced, Weaver still had the advantage of huge burst/cleave AoE-damage which is quite good on several encounters. Also it's direct and not conditional damage and people still have some weird thing going on with how they need pdps for certain bosses and stuff like ramp up times and bla. I still think that Weaver would still have a spot.

>

> Read what I wrote again. If there were no damage differences, you'd be much better off picking a more reliable power class like DH or Holo. Why risk getting interrupted all the time, screwing the much more complex rotation or having your conjures stolen? Even assuming you *can* play it perfectly and end with the same results, how would your teammates know that? Why wouldn't they prefer to get another damage dealer that is much easier to play and therefore statistically more likely to be played well?

 

> @"Xantaria.8726" said:

> I agree to Feanor.2358. The very reason weaver does more dps is simply the fact that his performance is hard to pull off. In a realistic raid scenario, you need to build the team around the weaver in order to bring those benchmarknumbers, which is in most cases only possible in statics. Otherwise in most pug groups i saw a weaver he was below our bs on the fifth place in the meter. Demanding a nerf to a class with one of the hardest rotation, which has several disadvantages and almost none cc or group support without sacrificing an incredible amount of dps is silly. There would be no more reason to play weaver, cause you could then rather switch to dh or holo if you need power dps, cause with them you would then have more group support, cc and a easy rotation which is hard to screw up.

>

> Pls stay to all the fact instead of crying around that a specific build does the most dmg (and yeah even 10k above second place) without looking at the contras of that build.

> I have no problem with buffing certain builds like power necro though.

 

> @"Xca.9721" said:

> The thing is:

>

> Ele = hard rotation, squishy, almost no sustain, bad cc, no team buffs

> Scourge = no rotation (just faceroll keyboard), do all your damage by pressing 1 skill (epidemic), give barriers so u can ignore mechanics, good cc, boon strip if needed

>

> Dont expect to do the same dps as a weaver when you give sustain to your group and there is no skill required to play that class

 

I'd rather say that your arguments don't speak against Scourge, but rather against Weaver. To elaborate: I really don't get why the (pseudo-) elitism about dps is so strong in a game in which endgame-content is mainly about executing mechanics properly. To be honest, people in GW2 should be able to play whatever dps-spec they want as long as they have a reasonable build and reasonable gear. It rather seems that ANet should rework Weaver/Elementalist to make it both simpler and more self-sufficient instead of nerfing other specs, because - honestly - how stupid is it to build a team around a single spec? Nearly every other spec also has some support-capabilities/brings cc, only Weaver is dps-only. I'd much rather see Weaver/Elementalist reworked instead of nerfing other specs.

[Feanor.2358]

> @"Raizel.8175" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > @"Raizel.8175" said:

> > > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > Fun fact: Epidemic *was* and still is, the most blatantly OP ability in the game.

> > > >

> > > > Another fun fact: Equal damage numbers do not create diversity in the dps role when they come with different drawbacks. Close the damage gaps and Weaver will be useless.

> > >

> > > I don't think so. Even if damage were to be more balanced, Weaver still had the advantage of huge burst/cleave AoE-damage which is quite good on several encounters. Also it's direct and not conditional damage and people still have some weird thing going on with how they need pdps for certain bosses and stuff like ramp up times and bla. I still think that Weaver would still have a spot.

> >

> > Read what I wrote again. If there were no damage differences, you'd be much better off picking a more reliable power class like DH or Holo. Why risk getting interrupted all the time, screwing the much more complex rotation or having your conjures stolen? Even assuming you *can* play it perfectly and end with the same results, how would your teammates know that? Why wouldn't they prefer to get another damage dealer that is much easier to play and therefore statistically more likely to be played well?

>

> > @"Xantaria.8726" said:

> > I agree to Feanor.2358. The very reason weaver does more dps is simply the fact that his performance is hard to pull off. In a realistic raid scenario, you need to build the team around the weaver in order to bring those benchmarknumbers, which is in most cases only possible in statics. Otherwise in most pug groups i saw a weaver he was below our bs on the fifth place in the meter. Demanding a nerf to a class with one of the hardest rotation, which has several disadvantages and almost none cc or group support without sacrificing an incredible amount of dps is silly. There would be no more reason to play weaver, cause you could then rather switch to dh or holo if you need power dps, cause with them you would then have more group support, cc and a easy rotation which is hard to screw up.

> >

> > Pls stay to all the fact instead of crying around that a specific build does the most dmg (and yeah even 10k above second place) without looking at the contras of that build.

> > I have no problem with buffing certain builds like power necro though.

>

> > @"Xca.9721" said:

> > The thing is:

> >

> > Ele = hard rotation, squishy, almost no sustain, bad cc, no team buffs

> > Scourge = no rotation (just faceroll keyboard), do all your damage by pressing 1 skill (epidemic), give barriers so u can ignore mechanics, good cc, boon strip if needed

> >

> > Dont expect to do the same dps as a weaver when you give sustain to your group and there is no skill required to play that class

>

> I'd rather say that your arguments don't speak against Scourge, but rather against Weaver. To elaborate: I really don't get why the (pseudo-) elitism about dps is so strong in a game in which endgame-content is mainly about executing mechanics properly. To be honest, people in GW2 should be able to play whatever dps-spec they want as long as they have a reasonable build and reasonable gear. It rather seems that ANet should rework Weaver/Elementalist to make it both simpler and more self-sufficient instead of nerfing other specs, because - honestly - how stupid is it to build a team around a single spec? Nearly every other spec also has some support-capabilities/brings cc, only Weaver is dps-only. I'd much rather see Weaver/Elementalist reworked instead of nerfing other specs.

 

Should and would are irrelevant. People already can beat the encounters with whatever dps specs they wish. They'll still go with what they perceive to be best, as this minimizes the perceived risks. Saying they shouldn't do it is about as useful as saying wind shouldn't blow. It's just reality.

[ysnake.3619]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > @"gateless gate.8406" said:

> > Coming from WoW, it's very strange to see such a massive gap between DPS in this game.

> >

> > Here's the breakdown of DPS classes in my previous MMO: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/17#

> > There is only a 15% difference between the best and worst specs. Removing the absolute best and absolute worst, that difference shrinks to just 10%. Compare that to the 24% difference between a GW2 Necro's 29k and a Weaver's 36k. For kicks, compare it to the 52% (!!!) difference between 29k and 44k. You cannot have a class doing 52% more damage than another.

> >

> > Arguments like "class X is harder to play than Y so therefore it NEEDS to do more DPS" is a fallacy, as (1) any gameplay difficulty is often both overstated and easily overcome by good players, and (2) raid groups will always demand the best and reject the worst, especially when you have sites like metabattle and tools like DPS meters. And that's really the most toxic effect of egregious balancing: Players who have spent possibly hundreds of hours on Necro are simply locked out of a significant portion of game content.

>

> Yeah, right. Then why everyone stacked scourges in ERP 2? Because they were locked out?

 

That's the whole point he is trying to make.

 

Necromancers(Scourge) can be good in a certain situations and can do these crazy things if communicated properly. If this is not done, it does not matter how good of a player you are, you are tunneled into one spec and one particular playstyle to be considered "viable".

 

Elementalists surely are harder to play than Necro, I don't play either of those classes - they should be a bit more rewarding to play if one can execute their rotation correctly and adapt to the situation. But that doesn't mean Necro should be overshadowed by how hard Elementalist is to play.

 

The point he made with WoW is that even there, there are classes that are harder to play than others. At one point Beastmaster Hunters only required 1 Macro to do the entire rotation and less than 6 buttons overall (counting major cooldowns) - while at some point, Shadow Priests (a DPS class) had this ridiculously overpowered ability that was anything but easy to use and the slightest lag spike/out of range meant you are dead.

 

GW2 prides itself with that most classes feel unique and bring some of their flavor to the midst and one can (most of the time) adapt on spot to whatever is needed of them. That's the whole point why one brings a Warrior to a raid (Banners or Bar Breaking), if every class did ONLY DPS (like WoW is), you would just have a lot of whatever class is the best stacked and faceroll through raids.

For example, Condi DD is piss-easy to play and the highest single-target sustained DPS class there is. No one complains about them for a simple reason, they are not wanted outside of the fact that that's the only thing they bring to the table, DPS - with super awesome gear and needs a specific setting where it can shine. Good luck trying to find a group in Fractals as a Thief or Necromancer. However, if you jump on that Mesmer of yours...

 

Please stop being a closed-minded turd and type out stuff like "omg this class is so hard to play, therefore I should be #1 all the time" - that is simply goddamn wrong. Because if you follow that logic, Engineers should be doing 60k DPS (I play Warrior btw,) just by logging in, let alone pressing actual buttons - as their mechanics are finnicky, gimmicky, not fluid and sometimes annoying to deal with.

[Ardid.7203]

> @"theory.3580" said:

> If it makes you feel better, my raid static has recently swapped to be: 2 chrono, 1 druid, 1 warrior, 6 scourge. Epidemic bouncing in an organized group, coordinated by voice communication, is ridiculously powerful. Necro is secretly massively overpowered, not underpowered. It just takes a lot of group coordination to unlock its full power.

 

You are not saying Necro is OP. You are saying Epidemic is OP. There is a huge difference.

[TheNecrosanct.4028]

The elementalists isn't _far above the average dps of every other class/spec_, especially not on small hitboxes. There are a lot of builds out there that come very close to weaver dps on a small hitbox. I do agree it's true that a necromancer can be much more useful, except for only condition weak enemies or bosses with lots of adds (because of epidemic). However, I used to use my condition reaper a lot when pugging Fractals, before Path of Fire came out. I was never kicked because of it, don't remember any remarks about my class' so-called inefficiency either. In fact, I used to take it for pug runs because of the many cc's and survivability, especially in certain Fractals that a lot of pug groups couldn't efficiently handle (the Gladiator at the end of the Chaos Fractal comes to mind, remembering all those times pugs ran in all directions except the boss' whenever his break bar would pop up; or pugs staying away from Bloomhunger whenever he could be cc'd). CC is often an obstacle in pug runs, in my experience. But it matters more that you know what to do.

[perilisk.1874]

Aside from the difficulty of play question, Necro is supposed to have better survivability in exchange for the DPS loss -- basically, Necro gets to keep doing damage while the ele is downed and taking everyone's DPS for reviving. It's just that the value of survivability is broken in PvE, thanks to overpowered active defenses that don't require a stat tradeoff (also, event timers tend to artificially push things in favor of DPS even in long fights where it should matter less). But that's been in need of a fix for a while now. Barrier is a step in the right direction, as it is a stat-based defense.

[ugrakarma.9416]

since HoT bring reaper, and now PoF with Scourge, i never understading these complaints about lack of damage of necro. Necro is still by far the most condi-spam spec. Since HoT the necro is my class for "impossible tasks" in PvE, like when i did the migraine achievment. Not to mention what happens with necro stacking groups to faceroll fractals or raids.

 

i always wanted necro as the "plague man" full of condi spam, and the scourge made my dreams come true.

 

i dont care about look "smart" with support class or anything like that, i just want to spread diseases and conditions.

[ButcherofMalakir.4067]

> @"gateless gate.8406" said:

> Coming from WoW, it's very strange to see such a massive gap between DPS in this game.

>

> Here's the breakdown of DPS classes in my previous MMO: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/17#

> There is only a 15% difference between the best and worst specs. Removing the absolute best and absolute worst, that difference shrinks to just 10%. Compare that to the 24% difference between a GW2 Necro's 29k and a Weaver's 36k. For kicks, compare it to the 52% (!!!) difference between 29k and 44k. You cannot have a class doing 52% more damage than another.

>

> Arguments like "class X is harder to play than Y so therefore it NEEDS to do more DPS" is a fallacy, as (1) any gameplay difficulty is often both overstated and easily overcome by good players, and (2) raid groups will always demand the best and reject the worst, especially when you have sites like metabattle and tools like DPS meters. And that's really the most toxic effect of egregious balancing: Players who have spent possibly hundreds of hours on Necro are simply locked out of a significant portion of game content.

 

I am not saying that x should be better because it is harder (or that much better). I am saying that class x without drawback shouldnt have same dps as class y with drwabacks.

 

Ele needs to stay still, die to 1 hit so he needs to cancel some of his casted skills ( - dps loss) and provide no ultility but require setup from other classes. For this it should have higher dps then condi soulbeast that need to press 5 buttons whenever they come off cd (and thankfully ele still has 40k+ dps).

Necro is maybe lowest dps on golem but on some fights it is the highest dps (epidemic bounce) so it would be insane if he was same as other dps on fights where he cannot bounce.

[ugrakarma.9416]

> @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said:

> Ele needs to stay still, die to 1 hit so he needs to cancel some of his casted skills ( - dps loss) and provide no ultility but require setup from other classes. For this it should have higher dps then condi soulbeast that need to press 5 buttons whenever they come off cd (and thankfully ele still has 40k+ dps).

> Necro is maybe lowest dps on golem but on some fights it is the highest dps (epidemic bounce) so it would be insane if he was same as other dps on fights where he cannot bounce.

 

without mentioning that in the matter of open world Pve, necro can solo several bosses due to its numerous mechanics and variations like minion-spam.,, in other hand a full zerk ele with highest dmg, simply cant solo a champion.

[JackassTheX.6351]

Has anyone actually benchmarked the über-squishy Weaver build post-update to see what an impact it actually had, practically, on the damage output? There were other changes, such as Glyph of Storms now sharing CD based on what attunement you were in when you cast it and it's CD was lowered by 5 seconds. I'm sure people like the SnowCrows guild are working on an updated DPS Weaver as we speak, so don't worry. We'll get our new, maybe even less complicated, Ele DPS build.

 

I somewhat agree with the OP that the fact that most classes output around 20-30k DPS while one single class easily does 30+ on decent execution seems a bit off and I'd be interested to know if this brought that particular build's damage down to what the other classes have. Coming from a necro which I mained years ago to a Weaver which I main now since I came back in early 2018, I found the Elementalist's lack of CC and basic support quite annoying. I would often sacrifice some DPS via for example Primordial Stance for something like Armor of Earth, use the Frost Bow instead of the Lightning Hammer (even though skill 4 is arguably the most OP skill ever), skipped rotation parts to use the limited Earth Attunement or Air Attunement CC abilities and I never felt like it detracted radically from the performance of the build. I think my teammates prefered me alive and able to continue to do damage than dead on the ground admiring my "epic burst DPS". If anything, I'd get kicked out of PUGs for dying all the time, not dealing less damage.

 

I always felt like the design of GW2 was geared against the holy trinity of tank-dps-healer, and yet, the Weaver DPS is to me the only truly specialized build - even the Power Holosmith, which is another rather specialized DPS build, has commendable CC and utilities. So I think this was ANet's way of sticking to their guns, trying to get the players to explore the Elementalist in a less narrow light.