Consolidated Suggestions for DE Changes

[Vulcaruss.9567]

> @"Doctor Hide.6345" said:

> > @"binidj.5734" said:

> > I am not a theorycrafter at all, however I can say that I really enjoyed Deadeye at release of PoF and now, post-nerf, it's just kind of ... meh. Where before fights felt dynamic (should I dodge, stealth, or move?) and fluid, now they are really just managing stealth and it feels boring. Sadly I can't see anyone agreeing to revert the profession to its original state so maybe I'll go back to Daredevil, which is a shame because Deadeye was such fun.

>

> You are late to the party for that one. A lot of people would prefer that it gets changed back to the way it was, but we are also wise enough to know that it won't happen. Once A-net does a rework, it is there to stay for the time being until three years down the line they change it again. Most of us here are just trying to get it to work in a semi decent fashion in order to salvage as much of it as we can. They are currently listening to us to a degree, so people are trying to get as much done and said as possible before they switch back to silent mode.

 

It's a damn shame this is how Anet works, they could entirely break and overhaul a profession to wrack and ruin, face a full scale community outrage war and never consider a roll back on changes, and leave it how it is then return to it way later down the road... A sad state of affairs indeed.

[Specialka.7290]

Why should they roll back? It is far better now. A few tweaks are needed, yes, but overall the new malice system is far better.

[Vavume.8065]

> @"Vulcaruss.9567" said:

> If you have nothing to add that improves the Deadeye with kneel, please don't comment here... such feedback is not needed..

 

Sit down son, I am entitled to express my opinion, if you don't like it, too bad.

[Vulcaruss.9567]

> @"Vavume.8065" said:

> > @"Vulcaruss.9567" said:

> > If you have nothing to add that improves the Deadeye with kneel, please don't comment here... such feedback is not needed..

>

> Sit down son, I am entitled to express my opinion, if you don't like it, too bad.

 

Never said you weren't, you're in an incredibly small minority that wants Kneel removed. Since this change happened i've seen maybe one other person want kneel gone. Whats more you're not proposing replacements or better ideas aside just "Remove it now." So unless you want to constructively add to this, your comment is moot.

[Vavume.8065]

> @"Vulcaruss.9567" said:

> Never said you weren't, you're in an incredibly small minority that wants Kneel removed. Since this change happened i've seen maybe one other person want kneel gone. Whats more you're not proposing replacements or better ideas aside just "Remove it now." So unless you want to constructively add to this, your comment is moot.

 

My comment is valid, I do not need to add suggestions as to how to replace kneel, It can be easily replaced, I would just like to see it removed. Once again, sit down boy, you are not the law around here.

[Vulcaruss.9567]

> @"Specialka.7290" said:

> Why should they roll back? It is far better now. A few tweaks are needed, yes, but overall the new malice system is far better.

 

I honestly don't see this as better. You replaced auto attack with consecutive DJ's with Spam your #3 over and over force stealth just to repeat it over again. The Rifle was the only one that was like that now you've spread it to the other weapons. I literally cannot see this as a better alternative.

[Bramymond.7689]

@"Gaile Gray.6029" @"Robert Gee.9246"

 

I just really hope, that Anet remembers to look at daredevil aswell when they are going to work on deadeye. Thief has more than one elite spec and even tho daredevil wasnt touched since 2-3 patches into HoT, it has suffered heavyly from old age, meaning nerfs to GotL, class-auras, food etc.

Once upon a time, we were 2nd place in power dps with ~33-35k. Daredevil never had the burst in PVE like other power classes did (namely ele or dh)and was always much closer to a condi pattern in its dmg application, with the drawback of doing 0 while being away from the boss. The exchange was decent cc and a farely easy playstyle, so it was fair. Nowadays, we are often sup 30k and far behind the most played power classes (weaver, DH, holo). Ele s still top (which is OK now imo), DH and holo are higher aswell and both offer a lot more utility just passively build into their dps kit than DD or DE and are also a bit tankier. I wouldnt count one extra dodge-bar as a defensive tool, when your entire class mechanism is about managing that extra endurance for your dps modifiers, although i can see some people disagreeing.

DE needs fixes, mainly for rifle, but PLS ANET dont forget about daredevil. Thief is currently a class with 2 dps-elites that are both underperforming and it really deserves better. I´m not saying it´s completely horrible, open world stuff is fine and u can totally make it work in a staple fractal group, but it´s unfair treatment, when one class is far less relevant in endgame content than all the others. Necro and Revenant players keep complaining and while i wont deny these classes deserve a look or 2 aswell they at least find a place, while thieves suffered in silence for a long time too.

 

Some constructive ideas i´ve been gatherig contain:

 

>Buffing "havoc mastery" form 7% to 10% - This properly rewards managing to stay in the dangerzone, also round numbers are prettier

>Giving the revealed debuff on "Weakening charge" - Daredevil isnt about stealth, it´s about being in your face and open. This change will give it some more syngergy with deadly arts and "revealed trainging", without leaving the thematic, offering a nice 200 power boost to your dps

>Maybe buff both the autoattacks dmg and the dmg from weakening charge a bit aswell.

>Give us the planned interaction between quickness and staff 5 from ages ago, which sadly never made it back into the game.

>Add some power dmg to a few of the currently underused utility skills, having to rely on poisons for max dps on a power spec isnt very nice.

 

I´ve tried to put my arguements politely and based on evidence i´ve witnessed from the last 2 years of gameplay. I hope i could get my points across, some feedback would be very appreciated. Pls keep up the good work, even tho the DE rework met some murky waters. I enjoy GW2 a lot and love the beauty in it´s art and the heart the devs put into it.

 

Edit: The new stolen skills were a very welcome and nice addition!

 

[Vulcaruss.9567]

> @"Vavume.8065" said:

> > @"Vulcaruss.9567" said:

> > Never said you weren't, you're in an incredibly small minority that wants Kneel removed. Since this change happened i've seen maybe one other person want kneel gone. Whats more you're not proposing replacements or better ideas aside just "Remove it now." So unless you want to constructively add to this, your comment is moot.

>

> My comment is as valid as anyone else's, I do not need to add suggestions as to how to replace it, I do not need it to be replaced, I would just like to see it removed. Once again, sit down boy, you are not the law around here.

 

As valid as it is, it still brings up the problem of replacement, whether or not you like it or how clunky it is to you, it still has to be replaced by something regardless. What would you do to fix the "clunkiness" What would you put in its place? All of those need to be considered, its not as simple as just "Removing it" and letting it go. Your comment just brings more problems to the surface...

[MakubeC.3026]

I would rather have Kneel stealth you again than the new stealth on dodge. When you dodge it is always in a defensive way, having an attack behind a defensive mode it's kind of awkward.

[eldrjth.7384]

> @"Bramymond.7689" said:

>

 

Yeah I think DD could do with some tweaking too. But one thing at time would be the best approach instead of changing both specs at once and having to deal with too many variables without getting feedback. I even think the weapon sets themselves need to be updated, but they tend to be the most static thing whilst other changes happens around them. Thieves have fewer weapon choices when compared to other classes, barring ele and engineer who are special cases because of attunements and kits (now that I mention it kits do need an update cause most skills on them are useless too but atleast it has the holosmith spec). So the limited choices they do have should be functional. SB right now is completely useless and D/D is substandard when you consider it is basically just single target dps weapon with no utility. I think anet shouldve put the focus on ranged weapons _in general_ when designing DE so that they would all benefit from the spec (whilst DD would be melee focused) then wed would be talking about getting melee up to snuff instead right now.

 

[Bramymond.7689]

> @"eldrjth.7384" said:

 

I couldnt agree more

[Curennos.9307]

Might I also suggest another look at shadow arts (shhhh you saw nothing)? Currently, all of the traits encourage -stacking- and -staying in- stealth. I would like the traits to be changed in order to encourage going into and then out of stealth - this would be accomplished by moving the stealth bonus traits to grant their bonuses for x duration when coming out of stealth or upon exiting stealth.

 

For example, one of the GM traits grants ~300 hp/sec every 1 sec and 1 ini every 3 sec while in stealth. This encourages the player to stay in stealth for the maximum duration in multiples of three - staying in stealth for 3 sec gives more benefits (plus inc dmg reduction from other traits) then 2 and 1 sec, and so on. Another trait reduces incoming dmg only while in stealth. It would be nice if (for ex again xD) if the latter trait gave reduced damage for x seconds while coming out of stealth and the GM healed you + restored ini upon coming out of stealth...or, of course, some variation/combination.

 

Tbh some revamping of core traitlines and how they interact with elites is pretty long overdue, imo. Something to tone down some of the lingering cheesiness that wasn't quite evident back when we didn't have elite specs/only had one.

 

Edit: Was thinking about this in relation to the issue of getting stealth via dodge roll and immediately being pulled out.

[Bramymond.7689]

> @"Curennos.9307" said:

 

I think u meant Shadow Arts?

[Yureii.4236]

allowing silent scope to trigger with p/p might also be a fun thing to play with. doing so gives them the ability to use stealth attacks to consume malice similar to rifle which also doesnt have a built in weapon skill for stealth.

[Nachyochez.9758]

One suggestion I'd like to add is for Payback:

 

Currently the skill operates wonderfully against most open world content, but during boss fights it essentially stops existing. Would it be possible to have the effect trigger when you cast mark, thus allowing it to be used multiple times in a combat against a single large combatant?

[Wondrouswall.7169]

Change "On Kill" on Collateral Damage and Payback to "When hitting a Marked target with a Stolen Skill".

 

This would allow both of them to be usable multiple times in combat and link well with One in the Chamber, Fire for Effect, and Improvisation. Would also provide an option between adding AOE offense to hitting stolen skills with Collateral Damage or gaining a stolen skill via Cantrips with One in the Chamber.

[babazhook.6805]

> @"Wondrouswall.7169" said:

> Change "On Kill" on Collateral Damage and Payback to "When hitting a Marked target with a Stolen Skill".

>

> This would allow both of them to be usable multiple times in combat and link well with One in the Chamber, Fire for Effect, and Improvisation. Would also provide an option between adding AOE offense to hitting stolen skills with Collateral Damage or gaining a stolen skill via Cantrips with One in the Chamber.

 

I suggested it be "On downed" rather then on kill and added a knockback effect but your suggestion works as well (if not better)

 

In its current form it of little use in PvP or WvW. If in a 1v1 and you kill a guy there little need to apply more damage. If you do manage to down someone and someone else is rezzing your chances of turning it into a kill are minimal. If in a raid against a boss this will never do anything.

[Lucinellia.9247]

> @"Bramymond.7689" said:

> @"Gaile Gray.6029" @"Robert Gee.9246"

> I´ve tried to put my arguements politely and based on evidence i´ve witnessed from the last 2 years of gameplay. I hope i could get my points across, some feedback would be very appreciated. Pls keep up the good work, even tho the DE rework met some murky waters. I enjoy GW2 a lot and love the beauty in it´s art and the heart the devs put into it.

>

> Edit: The new stolen skills were a very welcome and nice addition!

>

You absolutely have and I think anyone that disagrees with you regarding the situation of Daredevil PvE hasn't really played Thief or kept up to date with how the damage output, damage patterns and utility of Daredevil compare with other power DPS.

 

However, I'm concerned that your points will get drowned out by the Deadeye issues. So, while we have the scarce attention of the developers for what feels like the first time ever, I'd implore you to make a full thread about this and other people experienced with Daredevil can chime in to make suggestions.

 

It isn't just Deadeye that needs a rework of a rework. In PvE, the entirety of Thief is hurting from neglect, lack of updates and questionable design decisions that weren't tested (I'm looking at you Quickness on Vault).

 

[Orpheal.8263]

DE in itself is the problem.. it should have never become an Elite Spec.. the gameplay aspects of it shoudl have been used for a Redesign of the Thief Class with Rifle becoming baseline for the Thief together with Offhand Sword and the Utility Skills of DE replacing Venoms, with Venoms getting redesigned into a F3-Skil lSlot, so that every Thief woudl have from then on always 1 out of 5 possible Venoms with them.

 

DE as E-Spec should get replaced with the Longbow using Rogue, so that the Class has then two longrange weapons, one thats baseline (by merging Rifles together with Harpoon Guns to gte rid as well of an obsolete underwater weapon, doing the same with Staff and Trident, replacing Daredevil as well too with an other E-Spec after that overall Thief Redesign) and an alternative through the Elite Spec Rogue, which would be the needed counter spec which this game needs for Traps, (Trap Control via Ability to see and remove traps) Banners (Stat Debuffs through Disarms), immunity to Stealth by being able to see stralthed foes, if you go as Rogue into stealth as well, being thentogether in the same realm of shadows basically. plus additionalyl having as Rogue the specialization of being better in Boon Steal and Boon Sharing, so that you can be as Rogue significantly better as Thief in the role as Group Supporter in this game, kind of Robid Hood style.. take something from somebody and share it with everybody who needs it more...

 

Both Thief Specs fell not like being good E-Specs, but more liek diorect sidegrades of the core class with features, that the core class should have to be in fact a convincign Thief of what you expect a Thief to be in a game like GW2... instead the core thief feels like gettign constantly dumbed down by Anet, just so that the stuff the s-pecs of the thief provide get this way a reason for their existance, which is a shame... just like Daredevil massively dumbed down the Agility Traitline of the Thief, just so that Dearedevil feels like beign an specialized and improved version of that, like an enhancement of Agility, where one thign without the other feels like being useless and incomplete to give the player the impresison of having a fast and very mobile thief which can hardly be stopped moving by anything, which we already had before DD got added and for what Agility got dumbed down for then to give those elements that got removed from agility basicalyl to the traits of Daredevil...

 

The thief class needs a complete full redesign including its specs, making sweeping changes only on one of its specs, while ignorign all the rest of the thief class is only a massive waste of time!!

[saerni.2584]

@"Wondrouswall.7169" @"babazhook.6805" @"Nachyochez.9758"

 

Updated OP to reflect these suggestions.

[Almondjoy.8964]

> @"Schnuschnu.9857" said:

> > @"saerni.2584" said:

>

> > I’ll respond briefly to the stealth access issue for P/P compared to other sets. As mainhand Pistol has always been a hybrid weapon (Sneak Attack) the offhand has always determined the “flavor” of the set. P/P with Unload behaves more like a power focused hybrid and P/D is a condi focused hybrid (much more condi than power). I don’t consider the power/condi balance on Sneak Attack a DE issue (and one that I prefer to keep separate from a thread about DE).

>

> I agree with you on the hybrid nature of P/D. The auto has bleeding (and torment with the stealth attack and DE but the set has stealth access), the second can have poison with Deadly Arts (good for passive effect of poison and cover condi with weakness from Lotus Poison), Torment on 3 and 4, and poison on 5 if you trait for it (wouldn't make that much sense but the possibility exists at least). So minimum 3, maximum 5 skills of the set apply damaging conditions (minimum bleeding and torment, can take poison)+ some utility conditions (at least cripple, immobilize and vulnerability, can take weakness) on top. This screams condi or at least hybrid.

> P/P on the other hand has access to bleed via the stealth attack (torment with DE). That's it for damaging conditions **on the whole set**. (You could trait for poison, but this requires a whole condi trait lines for it to force a power set in a suboptimal hybrid role as is has only access to bleeding normaly due to missing stealth access for torment and the rest of the set doesn't support a condition focused play style). It has also access to blind, immobilize and vulnerability which work fine for power as the don't need condition damage to work properly. So minimum 1 skill, maximum 2 skills **of the whole set** apply conditions. Hardly a hydrid set, not even a power focused hydrid as you would only lose damage by focusing on hybrid due to the good power damage of 3 and gaining not that much from a 4s base duration bleed and nearly no access to torment due to stealth. Would be like saying D/P is hydrid because it has access to 1 damaging condition which can be applied at least regulary and heavily traited for with Deadly Arts (so at least 3 of 5 skills can apply damaging conditions), so much more reliable that the conditions of P/P.

>

>

> > That said, the Deadeye specific issue for P/P is that Malicious Sneak Attack is required to clear malice to use M7 in light of how easy it is to push max malice using Unload. This feels less like a reward and more like a chore. The solution might be to add some power-typed bonus in addition to torment. However, this may require taking some of the bonuses out of Unload to not make the set too strong.

> >

> > Ultimately, I feel this makes the, very real, P/P issue unsuitable for a Deadeye focused rework consolidation thread and more a general thread on how to reduce how overloaded Unload is for power P/P.

>

> The P/P problem is a deadeye rework problem as it became a problem only after the rework. Now DE offers not really much for P/P (M7 without stealth access is not that much). Even DrD as the melee spec offers more for the P/P set with Bounding Dodger for Stealth and flexible bonus damage (not only the marked target) or Unhindered Combatant for much needed mobility on a range weapon set and Impacting Disruption for pistol 4 or Escapist's Absolution for much needed condi cleanse. When after a rework a melee spec has more to offer for a ranged weapon set than the reworked ranged spec something is definitly wrong and this has nothing to do with hydrid or not.

>

> So imo the P/P problem is very real in conjunction with the deadeye rework and has to be addressed with it.

>

>

 

Deadeye wasn't made for P/P though. I know a lot of people are upset about it, but the chief design is about the rifle, so that takes priority of for the spec.

 

These elite specs can't suit every single playstyle while having a very specific design. The design they went with was a stealth based sniper, and it might not be suitable with P/P anymore which is unfortunate but not wrong.

 

As you mentioned in your post that because P/P daredevil is more flexible then I suggest using it.

 

As a side note this is thier "Guild wars 2" interpretation of a sniper. I think they tied it to stealth simply because there aren't a lot of snipers irl that are just chillin out in the open but in order to make the class work for the game's sake they added things that aren't so sniper like as we see them. Thats is okay because thats what makes games an art. Just look at the beserker class. If you compare a somewhat traditional view you'd think fast swinging dual axes or in another interpretation a giant slow two handed axe but in this case they gave them a TORCH!?!?! Its crazy but that is their version of a beserker.

[Volrath.1473]

There is no possible scenario were we win...

Sorry to say but after this re(nerf)work it's like we're being cooked alive in a frying pan and the only solution is to jump into the fire...

 

I'm already getting use to the idea that I won't be able to play DE again in any game mod.

 

Back to DD it is. :'(

[Platanos.8107]

> @"Miatela.5047" said:

> The reason that Deadeye is not taken in a support slot is because the opportunity cost to bring Might and Fury is _far too high_ for a class that will be a DPS support rather than a healing support. As things stand, Druid sacrifices a bit of healing through one talent in order to be able to bring Might - this Might is easily upkept through a standard rotation and the lost healing output is easily covered by the secondary healer which can now be another Druid, Tempest, Scourge, Scrapper, Renegade or Firebrand.

>

> **I strongly urge you to consider making Fire for Effect grant 10 Might for 20 seconds instead of 8 Might for 12 seconds.**

>

>

 

I would like FoF to not grant might/fury on steal skill, and instead self-applied boons are also applied to allies near you and the mark. Can be a might/fury stacker with p/p, some might/fury stacking on rifle (and vigor if you want to use spotter's shot too). Can use trickery+Haste for some quickness too. In PvE, it's probably gonna be perma 25 might/fury and 30% quickness uptime while dishing out 20k dps. Also would make deadeye S/D pretty good in PvP since Bountiful Steal would apply stolen boons twice to allies, and S/D #3 would apply boons to allies.

 

 

 

[saerni.2584]

I think you underestimate how powerful FfE is when you take OitC. The extra might from stolen skills can easily spike to 25 on you and allies around you.

 

I’m not inclined to agree with changes to FfE unless someone can point to an actual issue with the trait and explain how their solution addresses the perceived problem.

[Platanos.8107]

> @"saerni.2584" said:

> I think you underestimate how powerful FfE is when you take OitC. The extra might from stolen skills can easily spike to 25 on you and allies around you.

>

> I’m not inclined to agree with changes to FfE unless someone can point to an actual issue with the trait and explain how their solution addresses the perceived problem.

 

I think it varies between being too strong in some cases and too weak in others. In PvE it's outshined by other support classes, and in PvP it can be too strong due to no ramp-up time (but I"ll defer to you to make that call). Anet has nerfed and buffed FoF, so I don't know if it was either underperforming, overperforming, or both.

 

Sure there's probably better things to worry about, and I can understand not fixing what isn't broken. In my view, I thought it would overall would be a healthier change with a buff to PvE (and I like playing S/D).