Consolidated Suggestions for DE Changes

[Lithril Ashwalker.6230]

> @"Jack Redline.5379" said:

> Also i would like to note that the skill Maleficient 7 should automatically share the boons to nearby players. Otherwise DE is not welcome in raids. If he could do this we could share quickness swifness 25 might fury aegis and i think there is protection for quite nice time which would make us valuable.

 

then explain the use of bountiful theft...which btw only steals 1 stack of might on an opponent that had 25

[MUDse.7623]

> @"Karnn.4569" said:

> > @"MUDse.7623" said:

> > >>> @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:

> > >>>>TRB does more damage because of the risk that you are immobilized, the thing you dont like about kneel. thats the reason TRB can deal as much spammable damage on that range.

> > >>> No. That's not it at all. I am looking at the damage per initiative spent. If they are going to make Double Tap weaker, then the cost should be proportionate. Otherwise, it should have the same damage as TRB and the only difference between them is range. Kneel should not grant more damage since it trivializes the standing skill.

> > >> >Skirmisher/Spotter Shot is a very good example of what I'm talking about. Same initiative cost, same damage. Each doesn't grant the same boon so each has their own advantages.

> > >>>> higher risk for more damage is a good design choice IMO.

> > >>>I disagree. There is no risk shooting at 1500 range.

> > >>the risk is the immobilization the very reason you want to change kneel, thats why the kneel skills got more damage in the case of TRB and better effects in case of Spotters for the same initative cost, because you are immobilzed during it. you cant just compare the skills seperate from the fact that one is during kneel one is not.

> > > > >> > > >> a thieves defense is : mobility, evasion, stealth.

> > > > >> > > >Stealth is meaningless without mobility. Stealth is meaningless without evasion. Mobility (e.g. swiftness and shadowstep) and Evasion gives 100% damage reduction. Stealth grants no damage reduction except when using Shadow Arts for a mere 25% reduction. Stealth without Shadow Arts is not a defensive mechanism. Stealth is a mechanic that gives access to Stealth Attacks - that's it.

> > >>>>>> and it breaks target, the target break aspect is allways defensive. but indeed it is inferior to mobility/evasion in 1 on 1 combat. but superior in group fights as it will shift the attention away from you.

> > > > >> >Stealth gives the illusion of defense. Unless you have Shadow Arts, it does not provide any sort of defense. It is mainly designed as an offensive mechanic that grants access to stealth attacks.

> > > >>> stealth can be used offensively as it proides you a 'first hit' opportunity, but it still aswell has a very important defensive part in target breaking. shadow arts improve mainly the defensive part.

> > >>>Stealth is an offensive mechanic designed to grant access to stealth attacks. Shadow Art simply gives it a defensive capability. Stealth is not a defensive mechanic, it never was. You can still take damage from stealth since many skills do not require a target.

> > >>you can repeat it as much as you want still wont make stealth a purely offensive mechanic. its a utility it can be used offensive and defensive, but as it can be used defensive this is one of the 3 defenses a thief is designed around.

> > > > >> > > >> deadeye focuses on stealth. and you got a lot of stealth especially while kneeling with a rifle. so far stealth is an underused defensive mechanic because aside from avoiding fights it doesnt do much. and in any mode you need to fight. you can evade while still dealing damage, you can use your mobility to kite while dealing damage but if you stealth you pause the fight. on top mobility and evasion when properly used will reduce incoming damage by 100%, while you can still die in stealth.

> > > >> > > >> Exactly. That's why stealth is not a defensive mechanism.

> > > >> > >> again it is a target break and lets you reposition to regain your range advantage.

> > > >>> > Not all skills require a target. I agree with repositioning but that is not a defensive maneuver, that is an offensive maneuver. Just as you said, "to regain your range advantage". A clear illustration of an offensive maneuver.

> > > >>> why is it offensive? i dont deal more damage on range, i recieve less => defensive. offensive range would be while chasing your target. it is correct that not all skills require a target but it is unwise to spamm them without knowing if you hit.

> > >>> Of course you do deal more damage. The less you have to dodge/evade, the more damage you can deal.

> > >>therefor endure pain, SoS etc are all offensive mechanics as they can focus more on attacking during it?

> > > >> > > > >> stealth on evade was a good thing for deadeye in terms of power, because it is uninterruptable stealth access on very low cooldow (endurance). but it was bad for the sniper feel. i care more about power then sniper feel, so i love it.

> > > > >> > >> I want to see an uninterruptable stealth, I really do. I like how Hidden Thief works. However, I do not agree that I should be required to sacrifice a dodge to gain stealth. This is not acceptable to me. The stealth on Kneel was perfect.

> > > >> > >> hidden thief is only uninterruptable for core/daredevil, because mark has a cast time.

> > > > >> >Hidden Thief is uninterruptable. The flaw in the design of DE Mark doesn't change that fact.

> > > >> >so you say if my mark get interrupted i still get stealth ? in that case i could stealth stack with mark cancel. but i do not get stealth when mark gets interrupted

> > > > >>> > stealth needs a cost or has to be overrestricted by cooldowns. endurance is a resource you dont need as much as rifle thief unless someone is right in your face then you need to evade and reposition so the stealth on evade is well placed here. i mean with old deadeye i was able to roam with wrong mouse profile so no dodge without realizing it for 5+ hours, thats how much Deadeye needed evades if he used stealth and positioning properly.

> > > >> > >Stealth already has a cost called Revealed or 3-4 second Timeout. Paying additional cost for it with initiative, cooldown, and/or endurance already makes it over the top.

> > > >> >> For instance, the stealth from Cloak and Dagger costs 5 initiatives plus it needs to hit, then after the attack, Revealed.

> > > >> > >Every time the Thief stealth, it also gives their target a breather room. Stealth was never a benefit for the Thief alone.

> > > >>> > In my opinion, Shadow Meld should be a Core F2 skill with the same cooldown as F1 skill. Then a CDR from the Shadow Arts trait should be added. Resilience of Shadows would be a good trait that reduces the CD by 15% and then Cloak in Shadows by another 20%.

> > >>> > werent you the one saying 10s cooldown for silent scope ? i mean thats my main issue i like that there is no cd now. 10s cd would be worse then before the patch with 2 ammo.

> > >>> I'm talking about Rifle flexibility and 10s CD for Silent Scope (original iteration, stealth on kneel) is not a high cost to pay. You have to also consider that part of my suggestion is to eliminate the self-immobilization. That is not worst than before. That is a huge improvement in Rifle flexibility.

> > >>the self immobilizasiton is not an issue at all as you are usually out of range during it, 10s cooldown is a harsher restriction then what we had before the patch if you consider weapon swaps during combat, because we had 2 ammos therefore 20s time to recharge both. with 10 sec some will be lost on weapon swap if you do not use it right before swapping.

> > >>> > a shadow meld usable by core/DD would mean i might consider them for wvw again but with the amount of anti stealth traps i run into i remain deadeye for now.

> > >>> Shadow Meld removes Revealed. As for perma-Revealed, I have no problem with that countermeasure.

> > >>there is no permarevealed in what i talked about, just long reveals, i know it removes revealed i mean read again what i wrote, dont try to educate me.

> > >> > > > >> > not sure what your issue with kneel is, but dont touch my stealth access!

> > > >>> > > > I want the stealth on Kneel back and I want Kneel to be a stance and not a self-inflicting immobilize. Revealed is already a self-inflicted nerf, now we also have self-inflicted immobilize on top of that. That's just too many self-inflicted nerfs.

> > >>> > > > if you give me a 10 sec cooldown on the stealth that is a nerf, a huge one to stealth potential of the deadeye. we got higher stealth uptime on rifle now as endurance gains can be buffed, i dont need more endurance. threfor i dont want to give up alot of stealth because you need evades. yes selfrevealeing is an issue with DJ as it is a stealth attack, but thats no reason to further limit stealth access.

> > >>> > > We have to wait 17-25 seconds for Hidden Thief so 10 second is not a nerf. The current iteration of Silent Scope also has that cooldown, which they intend for it to have that cooldown and for whatever reason, they allow for it to reset on kneel.

> > >>> > > If you think about it, at 5% per second of the base endurance rate, you have to wait for 10s anyway for your next dodge. Sure you can speed this up by applying Vigor but that's another cost you have to pay just to gain stealth in addition to paying the cost of sacrificing an evasion on dodge.

> > >>>> i dont have a cooldown on it as i use my kneel to reset it, fact is i do stealth more then every 10 seconds and you want a rifle without kneel so i need to give this up ? ever considered playing p/p?

> > >>> I never said, "rifle without kneel". I said Kneel can be a toggled stance.

> > >>> Yes, I play P/P all the time. How is this relevant?

> > >>it is relevant as i dont want to play p/p , you want rifle to be more like p/p with nerfing stealth access and removing the self immob.

> > >>i dont have issues at all with self immobilze but with you attempt to nerf my stealth access.

> > >>> > you pretty much allways have vigor with m7 and with the food you got tons of endurance

> > >>> M7 hardly triggers in WvW or PvP. You practically have to waste Initiatives on Spotter Shot just so you can dodge to get stealth. It's insanity.

> > >>that so my m7 triggers alot, and i can dodge alot for stealth, 0 issues here.

> > >>> > and what has hiddenthief to do with silentscope cooldown now?

> > >>> Silent Scope is 10s CD. Hidden Thief is 17-25s depending on your build. Before Silent Scope, waiting for 17s to stealth was not a big deal. Now you're making 10s CD a big deal.

> > >>before silent scope there was no rifle? and i used other sets to enter stealth. i never had to wait for hiddenthief. so yes 10sec cooldown is a nerf as it is worse then before the patch with 10sec + 2 ammo.

> >

> > i think we could discuss this here for ages and lose ourselves in details wich this thread is not about. and at the end will just agree to disagree. so to summrize :

> >

> > -> you dont want kneel to be self immobilisation and you dont want to spent endurance on stealth. to get that you want a clunky toggle on off and standing still to kneel with a 10s cooldown on stealth.

> > -> i on the other hand position myself properly so that i dont have an issue with the immobilize and am perfectly fine with using endurance for stealth as in a situation i need to dodge, i mostly want to stealth anyway. therefor your suggestion feels to me all but nerfs as you lower the stealth access, i have no issues keeping up vigor and the food for a ton of stealth. i can even permastealth with mainly silent scope , thats how much endurance i can get. you want to cap it at 40% uptime( less infight cause 10s cd and no ammo) and it wasted on my kneeling, therefor even less stealth access infight then before patch. thats a huge nerf just because you dont like the immobilise. we will never agree on this so no point in further discussing it here, the devs can read both sides and deside what they favor.

>

> You know kneel is alot less clunky if you hold 5 not toggle it. Which was what you did to get stealth with instant immobilize cancel.

 

i know , i am not the one having issues with kneel.

[Urejt.5648]

After many games on new deadeye i must say new rifle 5 mechanics with trait is very bad for the class. **Rifle deadeye gor better sneak atack**, but tradeoff is much lower stealth available, **much lower surviavalability.** Cooldown on stealth on dodge and being revealed when dodge makes silent scope trait (stealth on dodge) very weak not usefull at all in pvp. Its better than nothing but still it triggers very rarly.

 

I suggest to** remove cooldown on silent scope**. Stealth is already extremely limited by number of dodges. What is more, sometimes u have to dodge while revealed so u waste "stealth" OPORTUNITY.

[MUDse.7623]

> @"Urejt.5648" said:

> After many games on new deadeye i must say new rifle 5 mechanics with trait is very bad for the class. **Rifle deadeye gor better sneak atack**, but tradeoff is much lower stealth available, **much lower surviavalability.** Cooldown on stealth on dodge and being revealed when dodge makes silent scope trait (stealth on dodge) very weak not usefull at all in pvp. Its better than nothing but still it triggers very rarly.

>

> I suggest to** remove cooldown on silent scope**. Stealth is already extremely limited by number of dodges. What is more, sometimes u have to dodge while revealed so u waste "stealth" OPORTUNITY.

 

yes not having to kneel to reset cooldown would make it feel alot more fluid, if the cooldown has to stay it should only apply if we actually got stealthed.

but overall i prefer the stealth on dodge to the previous stealth on kneel

[kash.9213]

I preferred kneeling for stealth as it looked awesome but also held your foot print if you found just the right perch. This new dodge to stealth feels as stupid as it looks (what's so silent about flipping around with a rifle like a Daredevil?) and I don't think I'll ever be fine with it. I would be okay however just not using stealth as much and managing Meld ammo more tightly if I could get a crouch stance or something, maybe make the master traits different stance with different ways to gain stealth or to gain Death's Judgment with their own pros and cons. Dodging to stealth might be cool but dodging to stealth with a rifle for our big hitter is just dumb and I'll thumb wrestle anyone who disagrees.

[Sir Vincent III.1286]

> @"kash.9213" said:

> I preferred kneeling for stealth as it looked awesome but also held your foot print if you found just the right perch. This new dodge to stealth feels as stupid as it looks (what's so silent about flipping around with a rifle like a Daredevil?) and I don't think I'll ever be fine with it. I would be okay however just not using stealth as much and managing Meld ammo more tightly if I could get a crouch stance or something, maybe make the master traits different stance with different ways to gain stealth or to gain Death's Judgment with their own pros and cons. Dodging to stealth might be cool but dodging to stealth with a rifle for our big hitter is just dumb and I'll thumb wrestle anyone who disagrees.

 

lol, harsh. I share your frustration on how stupidly clunky the dodge-for-stealth is. Not to mention, the self-immobilization is a very bad design which becomes ironic when they talk about Rifle Flexibility. Nothing flexible when it comes to self-immobilization.

[Jack Redline.5379]

> @"Lithril Ashwalker.6230" said:

> then explain the use of bountiful theft...which btw only steals 1 stack of might on an opponent that had 25

 

Yes i see what you mean. The point is we would not steal the boons we are generating them as a DE and we do generate 25 stacks of might if you play p\p since the constant 3Unload rotation grants it to you. Also Maleficient 7 grants you the remaining boons i mentioned = fury, protection, swiftnes, vigor, regeneration. These are not taken from anyone DE generates it for himself on his own. Point would be if M7 would share these boons we could be valuable in raids since we would give away these to other players around (or at least 5 of them) as the m7 would activate you would copy boons from you including 25might and maybe quickness if you have it generated by runes or traits and share it around. never used bountiful theft tbh since it wasn't optimal for my condi dd build so i cant speak for it but m7 could do what bountiful theft was supposed to do and more if it was adjusted.

[babazhook.6805]

> @"Jack Redline.5379" said:

> Also i would like to note that the skill Maleficient 7 should automatically share the boons to nearby players. Otherwise DE is not welcome in raids. If he could do this we could share quickness swifness 25 might fury aegis and i think there is protection for quite nice time which would make us valuable.

 

There no point to Fire for effect then. If you give tha boon share to Mali 7 why would any take FFE/ Right now as it is the ONLY reason to take over Mali 7 is the share as it has much fewer boons and less stacks of the same.

[Lucinellia.9247]

> @"babazhook.6805" said:

> There no point to Fire for effect then. If you give tha boon share to Mali 7 why would any take FFE/ Right now as it is the ONLY reason to take over Mali 7 is the share as it has much fewer boons and less stacks of the same.

 

That leads to an interesting thought - one of the reasons that Chronomancers are so desirable is boon share through Signet of Inspiration (in addition to the huge amount of boons they can put out and utilities such as pulls and Moa). So what about leaving Fire for Effect as is for Might and Fury sharing and adding an additional effect;

 

_"When Deadeye's Mark is applied, share one instance of any boon applied on you to nearby allies"_

 

With just this change, the Deadeye still needs to pay a considerable opportunity cost to be the sole provider of Might for a raid or fractal group but switching to Fire for Effect could have additional advantages for groups that need improved boon uptime. Again, far from a meta use or role but it would be something a touch more interesting that a Thief could bring - basically a weaker and more allies reliant version of Explode Plasma.

[Sodeni.6041]

I think Anet tried to make a second Mirage with modified stealth attacks instead of dodge-ambush attacks.

 

However, they missed the point.

 

**Every mirage has easy access to mirage cloak via dodging regardless off their build**.

 

Deadeye needs to be stealthed to do the malicious stealth attacks. But **you HAVE to use stealth utilities, traits and elites in order to use your new class mechanic.**

 

This is a major flaw of the Deadeye rework. Your build diversity is very limited if you take stealth utilities and traits.

 

If they gave the deadeye a F3 ability that lets them stealth for a short duration in order to do the malicious stealth attacks it would be a completely different story. *A new profession mechanic should not require you to use certain utilities or weapons (pistol offhand, dagger offhand) to benefit from it.*

 

If they did that they could then balance the malicious stealth attacks and improve the Deadeye further.

[Jack Redline.5379]

> @"babazhook.6805" said:

 

> There no point to Fire for effect then. If you give tha boon share to Mali 7 why would any take FFE/ Right now as it is the ONLY reason to take over Mali 7 is the share as it has much fewer boons and less stacks of the same.

 

I dont understand what you just said? at all. What FFe are you talking about? I said that since M7 gives you forementioned 6 boons it would be nice to have this trait upgraded or it could be done by other trait that we as DE could share these boons after we have them generated by M7

[Jack Redline.5379]

> > @"babazhook.6805" said:

i just found out what you mean. Nobody plays FFE it is not even in builds you either play M7 or Quick or dead both to increase ur dps. Playing FFe is pointless giving someone one stack of might and furry for 12 sec is less than nothing. we need to give a propper set of boons or we need higher dps for more builds than just rifle which also isnt that high

[babazhook.6805]

> @"Jack Redline.5379" said:

> > > @"babazhook.6805" said:

> i just found out what you mean. Nobody plays FFE it is not even in builds you either play M7 or Quick or dead both to increase ur dps. Playing FFe is pointless giving someone one stack of might and furry for 12 sec is less than nothing. we need to give a propper set of boons or we need higher dps for more builds than just rifle which also isnt that high

 

FFE is a BOON share though. I really do no think anything more should go to MALI 7. If anything FFe should be upgraded and leverage its boon share.

[Jack Redline.5379]

 

> > > > @"babazhook.6805" said:

>

> FFE is a BOON share though. I really do no think anything more should go to MALI 7. If anything FFe should be upgraded and leverage its boon share.

 

But you will lack dps M7 lets you use boon upgraded dmg trait (forgot name now) you get 1% dmg + per boom on you ALSO you gain initiative which enlenghtens ur burst AND you would share plenty more boons with more stacks for might

 

[Yuki Aburame.5283]

Just wanted to chime in. Since the rework I have tried playing with rifle but it's just not working for me the way it did before rework. It was not perfect but the rifle skills worked (for me) numbers and some trait changes would have made it great. Now after the rework I do play DE, but as a d/p & sb thief for the quickness. basically I only play DE for the be quick or be killed trait that boost power and precision and the % damage increase :/

While I before the rework played DE to play with the rifle.

[Blacksarevok.8104]

I don't understand what was wrong with the old malice system. Seemed to work just fine in both PVE and PVP. Why try to fix something that's not broken?

 

Now it feels like malice is just pointless in PVE. They should just revert these changes imo.

[Jack Redline.5379]

> @"Blacksarevok.8104" said:

> I don't understand what was wrong with the old malice system. Seemed to work just fine in both PVE and PVP. Why try to fix something that's not broken?

>

> Now it feels like malice is just pointless in PVE. They should just revert these changes imo.

 

Players: Is this a bug or a feature

Anet: Yes

[saerni.2584]

So I've been busy this weekend and unable to be online so I’m just now catching up on various threads.

 

I’ll be including issues with how Kneel and Silent Scope function together in the OP.

 

As to FfE there is some misinformation in the last few posts. It is 8 stacks of might per stolen skill and the builds that use it often have multiple stolen skills that can be used. Zergs can often get perma 25 might and now fury using it in quick succession. The fury aspect is especially important for a solo Deadeye because it helps with malice generation and can be maintained through FfE more consistently than with other sources.

[Chrysaliss.8720]

I would like to add something, that is my main source of frustration (especialy in fractals).

 

Kneel / Free action ability should overrule all inputs.

What usually happens is that I am channeling Three round burst and then some boss ability that requires movement takes place. I press 5 to get up, but instead of getting up the character starts channeling another three round burts, because it was already in queue. Imo when I press the Free action button, then the character should instantly cancel whatever it is doing and get up.

 

Edit: Not sure if it is already mentioned in this thread as I did not read every comment.

[MUDse.7623]

> @"Chrysaliss.8720" said:

> I would like to add something, that is my main source of frustration (especialy in fractals).

>

> Kneel / Free action ability should overrule all inputs.

> What usually happens is that I am channeling Three round burst and then some boss ability that requires movement takes place. I press 5 to get up, but instead of getting up the character starts channeling another three round burts, because it was already in queue. Imo when I press the Free action button, then the character should instantly cancel whatever it is doing and get up.

 

 

as free action no longer removes soft cc, you can stow weapon wich will do the same and cancel what you are doing unless you are in the mid of a roll (dodge, withdrawl, RfI). so till we maybe get what you ask for here you can do that to avoid the issue.

[Chrysaliss.8720]

 

> @"MUDse.7623" said:

> as free action no longer removes soft cc, you can stow weapon wich will do the same and cancel what you are doing unless you are in the mid of a roll (dodge, withdrawl, RfI). so till we maybe get what you ask for here you can do that to avoid the issue.

 

Thank you. I did not know that.

 

 

[babazhook.6805]

Redoing this post so give a second.

 

[Lucinellia.9247]

> @"saerni.2584" said:

> As to FfE there is some misinformation in the last few posts. It is 8 stacks of might per stolen skill and the builds that use it often have multiple stolen skills that can be used. Zergs can often get perma 25 might and now fury using it in quick succession. The fury aspect is especially important for a solo Deadeye because it helps with malice generation and can be maintained through FfE more consistently than with other sources.

 

Which doesn't help in PvE where Thief remains the only profession which cannot support without massive opportunity costs. So perhaps a split between PvP/WvW/PvE is needed? Since those Improvisation / Trickery cantrip heavy builds aren't going to work in PvE without wrecking already low DPS.

 

This is why Fire for Effect needs to grant more Might (ideally 10) with a longer duration (ideally 18 seconds) to see any use in PvE.

[saerni.2584]

> @"Miatela.5047" said:

> > @"saerni.2584" said:

> > As to FfE there is some misinformation in the last few posts. It is 8 stacks of might per stolen skill and the builds that use it often have multiple stolen skills that can be used. Zergs can often get perma 25 might and now fury using it in quick succession. The fury aspect is especially important for a solo Deadeye because it helps with malice generation and can be maintained through FfE more consistently than with other sources.

>

> Which doesn't help in PvE where Thief remains the only profession which cannot support without massive opportunity costs. So perhaps a split between PvP/WvW/PvE is needed? Since those Improvisation / Trickery cantrip heavy builds aren't going to work in PvE without wrecking already low DPS.

>

> This is why Fire for Effect needs to grant more Might (ideally 10) with a longer duration (ideally 18 seconds) to see any use in PvE.

 

It’s been noted in a few places that DE really has issues with large HP targets being difficult to get the benefit of certain traits (Payback for example).

 

One option is increased effect in PvE but that just makes DE even stronger in some situations.

 

I would suggest an alternative. Make FfE have a cooldown and apply might in an area around the target and DE when the DE strikes their marked target. You could also tie it to maxing out Malice like M7.

 

Basically FfE would be the boonshare Deadeye focusing on sharing might and fury but giving up the extra malice, initiative regen and personal variety of boons. But the gameplay would be easier to reconcile with PvE targets with a lot of HP where stolen skills don’t reset as much as other game modes (this also could make boonsharing DE more PvP viable as well.

[Specialka.7290]

Everyone is asking for a F3 skill? Why not put DJ up there? Remove the Stealth requirement, but allow only its use when you hit full malice on your target? Or when you use F3 you stealth and cast Dj at the same time (so this skill should work as Shadow meld does remove "revealed" and give us stealth). And give us back cursed bullet as a stealth attack.

 

That way we can keep the stealth on roll (and not at the end of the roll to band aid the issue with DJ) which help in Pvp.

 

And maybe while we are it, make the F3 skill a malice spender for all weapons set? Dj for Rifle, Execution for dagger, etc....

 

Buff Rifle dmg across the board obviously.