Jski.6180 Posted May 28, 2018 Share Posted May 28, 2018 > @"Dralor.3701" said: > > @"Jski.6180" said: > > > @"DeadlySynz.3471" said: > > > > @"Jski.6180" said: > > > > > @"Threather.9354" said: > > > > > Scourges are just noob killers of this expansion. Its like dragonhunter in last expansion. "omg nerf dragonhunter elite trap!! " > > > > > > > > > > Scourge destroys noobs (Playerbase is way worse now, just look at PvP, WvW is the same, it's just result of MMO genre not being mainstream anymore) but good scourge is way less menacing than a good firebrand, herald, SB, chrono or any other class *against decent players*. > > > > > > > > > > Its just that condi side of scourge can be made useless first engage by decent shoutbreaker, holo, chrono or firebrand in party. > > > > > > > > > > Scourge is too easy to play, I agree, but it definitely doesn't deserve any nerfs. They could remove the shade procs around scourge and change the l target cap around shade to something like 4 normally and 8 with sand savant while buffing the skills by like 20% to shift scourge to more healthy balance. And give dhuumfire 1 sec cooldown. > > > > > > > > But they did nerf the crap out of dragonhunters elite traps and all of them over all and the means of getting stealth / super speed with such traps. > > > > > > > > If your only argument is that they are good vs ppl in wvw and spvp and that most ppl in these game types and where ppl are saying the class is op then your argument is already lost because yes its a problem if every one is running such a class that ppl cant deal with with out playing on that very same class in these game types. > > > > > > > > Scourge is doing power dmg as well as condi dmg so... its not a condi only problem. If any thing this also shows that scorge as a condi support is way to powerful as it dose high power dmg for a class type that should not be doing power dmg as such an amount. You dont crit with condi dmg so all that precision and crit dmg on scorge is going to its power dmg so there is something very wrong here. > > > > > > They aren't too powerful when they're sitting ducks due to their lack of mobility and vulnerability to ranged classes. Many people gave up on their scourge now as they're far too easily killed. > > > > > > The reason people can't deal with scourge is because they are too lazy to either get off their melee classes and onto ranged, or commanders are too belligerent in disallowing ranged into their squads or to be followed. > > > > > > A class does not require to be "nerfed" or "balanced" when it's the players unwillingness to put the proper classes against them to deal with them. This is no different than if I were to run around on a longbow ranger and demand warriors be nerfed into the ground until I could deal with them easily in any given scenario. Then that 1 time they sneak through somehow and start to melee me, well they need to be nerfed again because they are not allowed to do that. That's people's general stance against scourge around here, it's terrible. > > > > Scorge has more mobility then core necro and for just simple attks one could argument that the have the best mobility for necros over all. Reaper can move a bit more then scorge but they must be in melee to land there reaper from attk scorge dose not. > > > > I am not sure what you mean by lazy if ppl put all there work into building one class or another why should it be less viable then others? You do realize what game your playing this is no hard core game that you must play one class or another in one game mood or another. > > > > If you think ranged has a real counter to scorge your living in a dream or playing too much scorge to not see how the other part of gw2 population lives. There so much hard counter to ranged in the game atm its amazing to even land a ranged attk. > > > > It sounds like your trying to convict your self that scorge is not op by the sounds of your arguments. If no class needs to be nerf or buff then why have they nerf and or buffed classes in the past is every thing ok now but all that time before it was not? > > > > When most of your pt is one class there IS something wrong with that class. There are 9 classes with 2 elite spec that you can chose from or simple a core class to stay with. If 60% of your pt is one class with one elite spec. there is something wrong because this dose not happen at random ppl are making a chose to play a class due to how well it is playing. A class like scorge is very boring to play it dose not do big numbers nor can you tell if your supporting well with barrier nor can you tell if your striping boons. So it ppl are not playing this class for fun. > > > > > > Please explain the part where other power ranged specs do not delete scourge? > > Yes, the class needs some nerfs but it is easy to kill with other ranged if you are not brain dead. Well as there are many means of dealing with ranged attks even scourge has a tool from core necro to deal with ranged attks and scorge is a ranged attking class in it self. When ppl say scorge is destroyed by ranged attk what they realy mean the only way to land safe dmg on a scorge is though ranged attks as you cant melee scorge at all. So less of a counter and more of the only chose. The class needs significant nerfs or a higher cost to play like the other necro classes costing an upkeep doing there class effect of DS/reaper form (needs life foce upkeep when you have shades out badly). I am all for making barrier weak vs ranged attk or unblock-able hit though barriers and giving all ranged classes means of unblock-able dmg but that would cause a lot of added problems. Its a lot easier to make scorge weak to burst melee dmg (like all mages type classes) or give them a burn out effect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Specialka.7290 Posted May 28, 2018 Share Posted May 28, 2018 > @"Dralor.3701" said: > > @"Jski.6180" said: > > > @"DeadlySynz.3471" said: > > > > @"Jski.6180" said: > > > > > @"Threather.9354" said: > > > > > Scourges are just noob killers of this expansion. Its like dragonhunter in last expansion. "omg nerf dragonhunter elite trap!! " > > > > > > > > > > Scourge destroys noobs (Playerbase is way worse now, just look at PvP, WvW is the same, it's just result of MMO genre not being mainstream anymore) but good scourge is way less menacing than a good firebrand, herald, SB, chrono or any other class *against decent players*. > > > > > > > > > > Its just that condi side of scourge can be made useless first engage by decent shoutbreaker, holo, chrono or firebrand in party. > > > > > > > > > > Scourge is too easy to play, I agree, but it definitely doesn't deserve any nerfs. They could remove the shade procs around scourge and change the l target cap around shade to something like 4 normally and 8 with sand savant while buffing the skills by like 20% to shift scourge to more healthy balance. And give dhuumfire 1 sec cooldown. > > > > > > > > But they did nerf the crap out of dragonhunters elite traps and all of them over all and the means of getting stealth / super speed with such traps. > > > > > > > > If your only argument is that they are good vs ppl in wvw and spvp and that most ppl in these game types and where ppl are saying the class is op then your argument is already lost because yes its a problem if every one is running such a class that ppl cant deal with with out playing on that very same class in these game types. > > > > > > > > Scourge is doing power dmg as well as condi dmg so... its not a condi only problem. If any thing this also shows that scorge as a condi support is way to powerful as it dose high power dmg for a class type that should not be doing power dmg as such an amount. You dont crit with condi dmg so all that precision and crit dmg on scorge is going to its power dmg so there is something very wrong here. > > > > > > They aren't too powerful when they're sitting ducks due to their lack of mobility and vulnerability to ranged classes. Many people gave up on their scourge now as they're far too easily killed. > > > > > > The reason people can't deal with scourge is because they are too lazy to either get off their melee classes and onto ranged, or commanders are too belligerent in disallowing ranged into their squads or to be followed. > > > > > > A class does not require to be "nerfed" or "balanced" when it's the players unwillingness to put the proper classes against them to deal with them. This is no different than if I were to run around on a longbow ranger and demand warriors be nerfed into the ground until I could deal with them easily in any given scenario. Then that 1 time they sneak through somehow and start to melee me, well they need to be nerfed again because they are not allowed to do that. That's people's general stance against scourge around here, it's terrible. > > > > Scorge has more mobility then core necro and for just simple attks one could argument that the have the best mobility for necros over all. Reaper can move a bit more then scorge but they must be in melee to land there reaper from attk scorge dose not. > > > > I am not sure what you mean by lazy if ppl put all there work into building one class or another why should it be less viable then others? You do realize what game your playing this is no hard core game that you must play one class or another in one game mood or another. > > > > If you think ranged has a real counter to scorge your living in a dream or playing too much scorge to not see how the other part of gw2 population lives. There so much hard counter to ranged in the game atm its amazing to even land a ranged attk. > > > > It sounds like your trying to convict your self that scorge is not op by the sounds of your arguments. If no class needs to be nerf or buff then why have they nerf and or buffed classes in the past is every thing ok now but all that time before it was not? > > > > When most of your pt is one class there IS something wrong with that class. There are 9 classes with 2 elite spec that you can chose from or simple a core class to stay with. If 60% of your pt is one class with one elite spec. there is something wrong because this dose not happen at random ppl are making a chose to play a class due to how well it is playing. A class like scorge is very boring to play it dose not do big numbers nor can you tell if your supporting well with barrier nor can you tell if your striping boons. So it ppl are not playing this class for fun. > > > > > > Please explain the part where other power ranged specs do not delete scourge? > > Yes, the class needs some nerfs but it is easy to kill with other ranged if you are not brain dead. In a 1v1 situation, you can kill a scourge with a ranged spec, most of the time. In a Wvw settings, it is near impossible to kill scourges. SImple as that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrus.7403 Posted May 28, 2018 Share Posted May 28, 2018 > @"Rezzet.3614" said: > > @"Traveller.7496" said: > > I'm starting to see squads with 80-90% scourges. Not even a real good organized team of similar size can take them down because of the sheer number of AoE and condi. > > > > Something needs to be done - it should be either damage or barriers/support, not both at the same time. > > also should only trigger 1 shade effect , its ridiculous to have so much aoe coverage and ontop of it with a 10 player target limit , 5 necros alone hit up to 50 targets for those who dont realize how big that little detail is You rarely hit 10 targets with scourge. Normaly you pirateship most of the time. Enemy at 900-1200 range so you hit 5 targets. Maybe you hit a yolo spellbreaker but thats it. 90% of the time yu hit 10 ppl the fight is already over and your enemy is already in mass retreat or if the enemy commander is stupid enough to push trough a choke with a full blob waiting behind. But that is more a l2p issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inoki.6048 Posted May 28, 2018 Share Posted May 28, 2018 > @"Awe.1096" said: >  > Scourges are fine. I am pretty sure this thing above is just a strange coincidence > /sarcasm > I giggle every time I see this :joy: Astounding how Houston fails to address the obvious and keep it as if it was perfectly OK. ANet, usually when the majority agrees on the same thing there's good reasons behind it you know ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LetoII.3782 Posted May 28, 2018 Share Posted May 28, 2018 > @"Garrus.7403" said: > > @"Rezzet.3614" said: > > > @"Traveller.7496" said: > > > I'm starting to see squads with 80-90% scourges. Not even a real good organized team of similar size can take them down because of the sheer number of AoE and condi. > > > > > > Something needs to be done - it should be either damage or barriers/support, not both at the same time. > > > > also should only trigger 1 shade effect , its ridiculous to have so much aoe coverage and ontop of it with a 10 player target limit , 5 necros alone hit up to 50 targets for those who dont realize how big that little detail is > > You rarely hit 10 targets with scourge. You rarely share your barrier with 10 players? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sovereign.1093 Posted May 28, 2018 Share Posted May 28, 2018 use scourge while it is hot. :3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gwaihir.1745 Posted May 28, 2018 Share Posted May 28, 2018 Neuter scourge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brujeria.7536 Posted May 28, 2018 Share Posted May 28, 2018 > @"Inoki.6048" said: > > @"Awe.1096" said: > >  > > Scourges are fine. I am pretty sure this thing above is just a strange coincidence > > /sarcasm > > > > I giggle every time I see this :joy: > > Astounding how Houston fails to address the obvious and keep it as if it was perfectly OK. > > ANet, usually when the majority agrees on the same thing there's good reasons behind it you know ;) The majority of people in WvW are bad players. You know why they are bad? They cry and complain instead of adapting. Any halfway decent zerg cleans the floor against that kinda setup. Just push them, and they die. Even 3 skilled eles with a staff are more dangerous than that an entire zerg of scourges. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jski.6180 Posted May 28, 2018 Share Posted May 28, 2018 > @"Brujeria.7536" said: > > @"Inoki.6048" said: > > > @"Awe.1096" said: > > >  > > > Scourges are fine. I am pretty sure this thing above is just a strange coincidence > > > /sarcasm > > > > > > > I giggle every time I see this :joy: > > > > Astounding how Houston fails to address the obvious and keep it as if it was perfectly OK. > > > > ANet, usually when the majority agrees on the same thing there's good reasons behind it you know ;) > > The majority of people in WvW are bad players. You know why they are bad? They cry and complain instead of adapting. > > Any halfway decent zerg cleans the floor against that kinda setup. Just push them, and they die. Even 3 skilled eles with a staff are more dangerous than that an entire zerg of scourges. Adapting as in playing scorge? Its a silly argument that you are making. "I do not agree with what other ppl are saying so i will attk thoughts ppl and question there skill." Its going to get you no where and its been proven wrong countless times as skills do get nerfed and buff. If that all you can think of saying i think your point of view helps the argument that there is something wrong with scourge as the def of scourge as is becomes attking ppl who are trying to point out why the CLASS is op but not the players them self who are playing it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brujeria.7536 Posted May 28, 2018 Share Posted May 28, 2018 > @"Jski.6180" said: > > @"Brujeria.7536" said: > > > @"Inoki.6048" said: > > > > @"Awe.1096" said: > > > >  > > > > Scourges are fine. I am pretty sure this thing above is just a strange coincidence > > > > /sarcasm > > > > > > > > > > I giggle every time I see this :joy: > > > > > > Astounding how Houston fails to address the obvious and keep it as if it was perfectly OK. > > > > > > ANet, usually when the majority agrees on the same thing there's good reasons behind it you know ;) > > > > The majority of people in WvW are bad players. You know why they are bad? They cry and complain instead of adapting. > > > > Any halfway decent zerg cleans the floor against that kinda setup. Just push them, and they die. Even 3 skilled eles with a staff are more dangerous than that an entire zerg of scourges. > > Adapting as in playing scorge? > > Its a silly argument that you are making. "I do not agree with what other ppl are saying so i will attk thoughts ppl and question there skill." Its going to get you no where and its been proven wrong countless times as skills do get nerfed and buff. > > If that all you can think of saying i think your point of view helps the argument that there is something wrong with scourge as the def of scourge as is becomes attking ppl who are trying to point out why the CLASS is op but not the players them self who are playing it. Well it is a fact. There is a reason that you dont stack Scourges in such an amount in PvP. In organized WvW groups or guild wvw groups. Scourge isn't nearly half as strong as people are overreacting here. Any decently set up raid group will roflstomp such a comp, and yet people argument such a meaningless screenshot of a failed squad as a prove for god-knows how many false arguments simply because it fits their narrow mind. Its not like every argument that scourge is too strong that has been mentioned in this topic has been proven either wrong / or has been thoroughly explained. I know, as a fact that only bad players would honestly complain that much. I dont know much about the State of WvW on NA side, but really, it cant be that much different. I havent seen a single argument on here that really provides a fair point on why scourge should be too strong - just QQ and L2P issues. Stacked scourges? -> hard push them and you win. Scourge has very long cooldowns and bad sustain once you have burned trough barrier (which btw is hard capped at 50% life and 150% total life is nothing against a pushing zerg.) Why scourges stack? -> Its easy because people dont know what to do against them. Of course people always look for the easiest way, just because its easy (and most players that hop on the bandwaggon here are bad scourges that really spam skills without thinking), doenst mean its the best way, the most efficient way or overpowered in any manner. Scourges hit so many targets? -> The effects are rather small in both, damage and effects. Of course if you stack them, it sums up, 10 Scourges can hurt - but so can 10 coordinated hammer revs, or 10 eles with meteor shower and staff skills. And these classes can also support each other with heals, boons and all other goodies, just much more reliable as they can FOCUS on healing / supporting for a period on time. A scourge barely can because its supporting aspects are either tied to the offensive ones (leaving you a choice, damage, or sustain, in the best case both) OR supporting the group vs self -> if teammates are low but you are healthy you have to blow your BIG cooldowns to help them, you cant focus your heal onto one person without sacrificing huge cooldowns, like for example an Ele or druid can. On top of that its barrier, and really not much health recovery in that sense Basicly scourge is a one trick pony -> Offensive skills tied to defensive ones + long cooldowns = huge window of punishment, if played right. Of course if a zerg pirate ships in a bad spot, or fails at movement and pushing it will die rather quick - but really in such a scenario they would have lost against any team comp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jski.6180 Posted May 29, 2018 Share Posted May 29, 2018 > @"Brujeria.7536" said: > > @"Jski.6180" said: > > > @"Brujeria.7536" said: > > > > @"Inoki.6048" said: > > > > > @"Awe.1096" said: > > > > >  > > > > > Scourges are fine. I am pretty sure this thing above is just a strange coincidence > > > > > /sarcasm > > > > > > > > > > > > > I giggle every time I see this :joy: > > > > > > > > Astounding how Houston fails to address the obvious and keep it as if it was perfectly OK. > > > > > > > > ANet, usually when the majority agrees on the same thing there's good reasons behind it you know ;) > > > > > > The majority of people in WvW are bad players. You know why they are bad? They cry and complain instead of adapting. > > > > > > Any halfway decent zerg cleans the floor against that kinda setup. Just push them, and they die. Even 3 skilled eles with a staff are more dangerous than that an entire zerg of scourges. > > > > Adapting as in playing scorge? > > > > Its a silly argument that you are making. "I do not agree with what other ppl are saying so i will attk thoughts ppl and question there skill." Its going to get you no where and its been proven wrong countless times as skills do get nerfed and buff. > > > > If that all you can think of saying i think your point of view helps the argument that there is something wrong with scourge as the def of scourge as is becomes attking ppl who are trying to point out why the CLASS is op but not the players them self who are playing it. > > Well it is a fact. There is a reason that you dont stack Scourges in such an amount in PvP. In organized WvW groups or guild wvw groups. Scourge isn't nearly half as strong as people are overreacting here. Any decently set up raid group will roflstomp such a comp, and yet people argument such a meaningless screenshot of a failed squad as a prove for god-knows how many false arguments simply because it fits their narrow mind. > > Its not like every argument that scourge is too strong that has been mentioned in this topic has been proven either wrong / or has been thoroughly explained. I know, as a fact that only bad players would honestly complain that much. I dont know much about the State of WvW on NA side, but really, it cant be that much different. > > I havent seen a single argument on here that really provides a fair point on why scourge should be too strong - just QQ and L2P issues. > > Stacked scourges? -> hard push them and you win. Scourge has very long cooldowns and bad sustain once you have burned trough barrier (which btw is hard capped at 50% life and 150% total life is nothing against a pushing zerg.) > > Why scourges stack? -> Its easy because people dont know what to do against them. Of course people always look for the easiest way, just because its easy (and most players that hop on the bandwaggon here are bad scourges that really spam skills without thinking), doenst mean its the best way, the most efficient way or overpowered in any manner. > > Scourges hit so many targets? -> The effects are rather small in both, damage and effects. Of course if you stack them, it sums up, 10 Scourges can hurt - but so can 10 coordinated hammer revs, or 10 eles with meteor shower and staff skills. And these classes can also support each other with heals, boons and all other goodies, just much more reliable as they can FOCUS on healing / supporting for a period on time. A scourge barely can because its supporting aspects are either tied to the offensive ones (leaving you a choice, damage, or sustain, in the best case both) OR supporting the group vs self -> if teammates are low but you are healthy you have to blow your BIG cooldowns to help them, you cant focus your heal onto one person without sacrificing huge cooldowns, like for example an Ele or druid can. On top of that its barrier, and really not much health recovery in that sense > > Basicly scourge is a one trick pony -> Offensive skills tied to defensive ones + long cooldowns = huge window of punishment, if played right. Of course if a zerg pirate ships in a bad spot, or fails at movement and pushing it will die rather quick - but really in such a scenario they would have lost against any team comp. You stack scorge because they are effectively adding 2 players to your group as they hit 10 targets. If ele could hit 10 targets with its other skills then MS (and the reason why MS is still usable) then you would see nothing but eles. As things stand scorge dose not do any thing less then other classes to hit thoughts 10 targets if any thing they tend to do more then most classes as well as braking the stander target caps making them the ideal class in wvw. If scorge could not hit 10 targets then you would see 1 scorge per pt as they will become over stacked and start to over do it with pt only overlapping support and effects. Being able to support and hit 10 targets lets you start to stack up barrier on ppl out side of your pt and outside of a 5 target bomb. There a good reason why we do not see 10 target caps size on other support skills why is it ok for scorge to get this unfair treatment for target caps? Even most elite skills dont even brake this 5 target cap. Your still not giving a reason why scorge is not op vs other classes and still going after ppl for thinking different then you are so please stop attking the person making the argument and deal with the class. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dralor.3701 Posted May 29, 2018 Share Posted May 29, 2018 It’s just fotm, you would down the other team faster stacking raw power dps. Still think scourge needs nerfs but as others said there is a lot of overreacting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
morrolan.9608 Posted May 29, 2018 Share Posted May 29, 2018 > @"Brujeria.7536" said: > Well it is a fact. There is a reason that you dont stack Scourges in such an amount in PvP. In organized WvW groups or guild wvw groups. Scourge isn't nearly half as strong as people are overreacting here. Any decently set up raid group will roflstomp such a comp, and yet people argument such a meaningless screenshot of a failed squad as a prove for god-knows how many false arguments simply because it fits their narrow mind. This or something similar keeps being said yet from T1 to T4 in NA I have yet to see it, or even hear of such alternate comps being run with any success. Literally every single group I see from T1 to T4 is running a somewhat similar comp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silver.2076 Posted May 29, 2018 Share Posted May 29, 2018 OMG. Can you not or do you not understand that the number of Scourges results from the fact that this offers a unique way of playing, but this advantage does not outweigh the unique advantages of other classes? The Ele can do massive damage, the Guard massive blocks and healing, the Necro spam masses of conditions. Everyone can provide some kind of support somewhere, all have their specific roles. What you can see is a setup that the players COMMUNITY has decided to use. They want to play with many spamers, fewer healers and dmg-dealers - that is up to them, because it is so much more fun and brings them success. Understand that such setups, when you see them, have one thought, one common goal and one common tactic. They can be countered, often with the same setup - if you bring it over better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brujeria.7536 Posted May 29, 2018 Share Posted May 29, 2018 > @"Jski.6180" said: > > @"Brujeria.7536" said: > > > @"Jski.6180" said: > > > > @"Brujeria.7536" said: > > > > > @"Inoki.6048" said: > > > > > > @"Awe.1096" said: > > > > > >  > > > > > > Scourges are fine. I am pretty sure this thing above is just a strange coincidence > > > > > > /sarcasm > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I giggle every time I see this :joy: > > > > > > > > > > Astounding how Houston fails to address the obvious and keep it as if it was perfectly OK. > > > > > > > > > > ANet, usually when the majority agrees on the same thing there's good reasons behind it you know ;) > > > > > > > > The majority of people in WvW are bad players. You know why they are bad? They cry and complain instead of adapting. > > > > > > > > Any halfway decent zerg cleans the floor against that kinda setup. Just push them, and they die. Even 3 skilled eles with a staff are more dangerous than that an entire zerg of scourges. > > > > > > Adapting as in playing scorge? > > > > > > Its a silly argument that you are making. "I do not agree with what other ppl are saying so i will attk thoughts ppl and question there skill." Its going to get you no where and its been proven wrong countless times as skills do get nerfed and buff. > > > > > > If that all you can think of saying i think your point of view helps the argument that there is something wrong with scourge as the def of scourge as is becomes attking ppl who are trying to point out why the CLASS is op but not the players them self who are playing it. > > > > Well it is a fact. There is a reason that you dont stack Scourges in such an amount in PvP. In organized WvW groups or guild wvw groups. Scourge isn't nearly half as strong as people are overreacting here. Any decently set up raid group will roflstomp such a comp, and yet people argument such a meaningless screenshot of a failed squad as a prove for god-knows how many false arguments simply because it fits their narrow mind. > > > > Its not like every argument that scourge is too strong that has been mentioned in this topic has been proven either wrong / or has been thoroughly explained. I know, as a fact that only bad players would honestly complain that much. I dont know much about the State of WvW on NA side, but really, it cant be that much different. > > > > I havent seen a single argument on here that really provides a fair point on why scourge should be too strong - just QQ and L2P issues. > > > > Stacked scourges? -> hard push them and you win. Scourge has very long cooldowns and bad sustain once you have burned trough barrier (which btw is hard capped at 50% life and 150% total life is nothing against a pushing zerg.) > > > > Why scourges stack? -> Its easy because people dont know what to do against them. Of course people always look for the easiest way, just because its easy (and most players that hop on the bandwaggon here are bad scourges that really spam skills without thinking), doenst mean its the best way, the most efficient way or overpowered in any manner. > > > > Scourges hit so many targets? -> The effects are rather small in both, damage and effects. Of course if you stack them, it sums up, 10 Scourges can hurt - but so can 10 coordinated hammer revs, or 10 eles with meteor shower and staff skills. And these classes can also support each other with heals, boons and all other goodies, just much more reliable as they can FOCUS on healing / supporting for a period on time. A scourge barely can because its supporting aspects are either tied to the offensive ones (leaving you a choice, damage, or sustain, in the best case both) OR supporting the group vs self -> if teammates are low but you are healthy you have to blow your BIG cooldowns to help them, you cant focus your heal onto one person without sacrificing huge cooldowns, like for example an Ele or druid can. On top of that its barrier, and really not much health recovery in that sense > > > > Basicly scourge is a one trick pony -> Offensive skills tied to defensive ones + long cooldowns = huge window of punishment, if played right. Of course if a zerg pirate ships in a bad spot, or fails at movement and pushing it will die rather quick - but really in such a scenario they would have lost against any team comp. > > You stack scorge because they are effectively adding 2 players to your group as they hit 10 targets. If ele could hit 10 targets with its other skills then MS (and the reason why MS is still usable) then you would see nothing but eles. As things stand scorge dose not do any thing less then other classes to hit thoughts 10 targets if any thing they tend to do more then most classes as well as braking the stander target caps making them the ideal class in wvw. > What are you talking about? Meteor shower has how many hits? 20? 25? each of these hits can hit up to 5 people- where talking about potential 100 ticks of damage from ONE skill. The same for Lava Font. It hits 5 targets up to 4 times = 20 hits. What about tempest or water attunement skills in general? They pulse often, they heal MANY targets, just like druid skills- even if they only heal 5 at times, they are much more spammable due to a lower cooldown. > If scorge could not hit 10 targets then you would see 1 scorge per pt as they will become over stacked and start to over do it with pt only overlapping support and effects. Being able to support and hit 10 targets lets you start to stack up barrier on ppl out side of your pt and outside of a 5 target bomb. > Yes and with what frequency and reliability? There is not a single "channeling" barrier skill that allows to spread it out evenly - its for your party and random members. What happens to a zerg that has uneven buffs / barrier when they get bombed? Yes, the less protected targets die early. Reducing the target cap kills the only purpose the espec should bring to the game in the first place - zone controll. Shade skill effects are VERY low tuned effect wise, honestly, it cant get any lower than simple barrier, simple fear, simple condi remove with a skill, excluding skill synergies and the shade strikes. > There a good reason why we do not see 10 target caps size on other support skills why is it ok for scorge to get this unfair treatment for target caps? Even most elite skills dont even brake this 5 target cap. because its what the e-spec focuses on? Scourge sucks at raw healing, and defensive boons like ele / druid/ firebrands yet its a support class!!! Why cant i spam aegis, heals and protection on allies?! Why this unfair treatment? Why are shade skills gated behind BOTH cooldown AND Lifeforce? Why cant i use all of my skills on cooldown like an ele or firebrand? Why this unfair treatment? You are comparing apples to pears here. > > Your still not giving a reason why scorge is not op vs other classes and still going after ppl for thinking different then you are so please stop attking the person making the argument and deal with the class. Because i dont see any reasonable argument on why it IS op? All i see are some arguments like - they hit 10 targets+ etc. etc. which in a vacuum, doenst matter, the skills could hit 5 targets and PULSE like ele skills do, it comes out to the same thing, yet kills the flavour of the class. Its not OP because it has reasonable counterplay. Its not OP because an properly built Zerg of the same size wipes floor with such a scourge heavy comp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brujeria.7536 Posted May 29, 2018 Share Posted May 29, 2018 > @"morrolan.9608" said: > > @"Brujeria.7536" said: > > Well it is a fact. There is a reason that you dont stack Scourges in such an amount in PvP. In organized WvW groups or guild wvw groups. Scourge isn't nearly half as strong as people are overreacting here. Any decently set up raid group will roflstomp such a comp, and yet people argument such a meaningless screenshot of a failed squad as a prove for god-knows how many false arguments simply because it fits their narrow mind. > > This or something similar keeps being said yet from T1 to T4 in NA I have yet to see it, or even hear of such alternate comps being run with any success. Literally every single group I see from T1 to T4 is running a somewhat similar comp. > Well i see it every day. To specify - it has been since the start of WvW that there usually is 1 or max 2 necros per group, initially for well bombing and ranged damage. As reaper is in a really bad spot WvW wise, scourge is the spiritual successor to vanilla necros in zergs- so when i say they get roflstomped doenst mean that a zerg isnt using necros / scourges at all. If you take a balanced team with 1 - max 2 scourges per group vs a team with a team that heavily stacks them you will win. Of course you gotta play it different, you bait out some cooldowns and you need to wait for the right moment to hard push them - after that push though you usually win. As scourge is rather vulnerable, with no hard invulnerability skill and bad self healing. A balanced comp will heal more, provide more protection and raw, continued damage where a scourges cooldowns are spent for the time being. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
morrolan.9608 Posted May 29, 2018 Share Posted May 29, 2018 > @"Brujeria.7536" said: > > @"morrolan.9608" said: > > > @"Brujeria.7536" said: > > > Well it is a fact. There is a reason that you dont stack Scourges in such an amount in PvP. In organized WvW groups or guild wvw groups. Scourge isn't nearly half as strong as people are overreacting here. Any decently set up raid group will roflstomp such a comp, and yet people argument such a meaningless screenshot of a failed squad as a prove for god-knows how many false arguments simply because it fits their narrow mind. > > > > This or something similar keeps being said yet from T1 to T4 in NA I have yet to see it, or even hear of such alternate comps being run with any success. Literally every single group I see from T1 to T4 is running a somewhat similar comp. > > > > Well i see it every day. To specify - it has been since the start of WvW that there usually is 1 or max 2 necros per group, initially for well bombing and ranged damage. As reaper is in a really bad spot WvW wise, scourge is the spiritual successor to vanilla necros in zergs- so when i say they get roflstomped doenst mean that a zerg isnt using necros / scourges at all. > > If you take a balanced team with 1 - max 2 scourges per group vs a team with a team that heavily stacks them you will win. Of course you gotta play it different, you bait out some cooldowns and you need to wait for the right moment to hard push them - after that push though you usually win. As scourge is rather vulnerable, with no hard invulnerability skill and bad self healing. A balanced comp will heal more, provide more protection and raw, continued damage where a scourges cooldowns are spent for the time being. What server? What exact comps? Because you're just making assertions. Scourge is vulnerable which is why they're bad 1v1, but in groups they have firebrands keeping them alive and constant barrier support from other scourges and constant spellbreaker bubbles enabling their damage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grifflyman.8102 Posted May 29, 2018 Share Posted May 29, 2018 > @"jdallen.5179" said: > I just spent several hours playing in a T1 match - SoS, StormBluff & Blackgate - and I watched zergs with decent commanders getting erased by "Scourge Spam". I tend to play a support guardian in zerg - I'm not a top end PvP player, but I do well with and providing support - configured for applying boons, heals and stripping conditions. Dealing with massed scourges I cannot keep up with it - I'm typically the last downed, but I simply can't take conditions off of people fast enough, or heal them enough to keep up. > > When my guild havocs and we deal with groups, even 5v2 (us vs a scourge and one other) we need to play carefully - if we get bunched up or let them get too close, they'll take us down. By contrast, dealing with groups the same size and similar composition, our success rate is more like 50-50, which is what I'd expect. > > This isn't newbs shedding tears - this is a serious imbalance. The only effective in-game counter to a blob of scourges is a similarly sized group of about the same composition. Power based ranged classes do not have enough range advantage to counter it - I gave my ranger a power-based build (2500+ power, 200%+ Ferocity, 50+% crit chance) to try exactly that and haven't found it effective yet, though the build is very fun to play. > > Watching it play out, when dealing with large squads of scourges, other classes simply do not have enough synergy to counter to AOE/Conditions/Boon strip/Boon conversion spam they have, even when those other classes are well played. There's no finesse, no alternate strategy available to commanders to counter them with groups containing different combinations of classes. Outcomes are brute force affairs with victory pretty much based on one characteristic - which side has the most scourges. I was in this much up. When the enemy zerg has so many scourge they can just run through you with mass red circles on the ground it takes a lot of fun out if the game. The amount of coverage they can zine control is really awful to try and counter and there's really no way around it other than avoiding the zerg. It's impossible to pick them off from range due to barrier and the fact that they're getting constant boon share. Shades should have diminishing returns or something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grifflyman.8102 Posted May 29, 2018 Share Posted May 29, 2018 > @"Spurnshadow.3678" said: > The biggest flaw in the scourge is that it acts as a shade. That alone doubles the dps/support aspect. These skills are able to fire off with little cool down. No other class can effect 10 allies/enemies that much. There are only a handful of other skills in the game that effect 10 allies/ememies. WoD has a long CD. A druid healing skill, some rev skill that no one uses. Most of those only effect either allies or enemies, not both, whereas shades usually do something to both allies and enemies. > Get rid of that aspect and you can actually get close to balancing again. Make each skill effect 3 targets. Easy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sigmoid.7082 Posted May 29, 2018 Share Posted May 29, 2018 > @"grifflyman.8102" said: > > @"Spurnshadow.3678" said: > > The biggest flaw in the scourge is that it acts as a shade. That alone doubles the dps/support aspect. These skills are able to fire off with little cool down. No other class can effect 10 allies/enemies that much. There are only a handful of other skills in the game that effect 10 allies/ememies. WoD has a long CD. A druid healing skill, some rev skill that no one uses. Most of those only effect either allies or enemies, not both, whereas shades usually do something to both allies and enemies. > > Get rid of that aspect and you can actually get close to balancing again. > > Make each skill effect 3 targets. Easy. Shade skills by default only affect 3 targets per necromancer / shade I am still incredibly confused at how people think the issue is anything other than sand savant. Pretty much every complaint can be tied back to an attribute the trait grants. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jski.6180 Posted May 29, 2018 Share Posted May 29, 2018 > @"Brujeria.7536" said: > > @"Jski.6180" said: > > > @"Brujeria.7536" said: > > > > @"Jski.6180" said: > > > > > @"Brujeria.7536" said: > > > > > > @"Inoki.6048" said: > > > > > > > @"Awe.1096" said: > > > > > > >  > > > > > > > Scourges are fine. I am pretty sure this thing above is just a strange coincidence > > > > > > > /sarcasm > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I giggle every time I see this :joy: > > > > > > > > > > > > Astounding how Houston fails to address the obvious and keep it as if it was perfectly OK. > > > > > > > > > > > > ANet, usually when the majority agrees on the same thing there's good reasons behind it you know ;) > > > > > > > > > > The majority of people in WvW are bad players. You know why they are bad? They cry and complain instead of adapting. > > > > > > > > > > Any halfway decent zerg cleans the floor against that kinda setup. Just push them, and they die. Even 3 skilled eles with a staff are more dangerous than that an entire zerg of scourges. > > > > > > > > Adapting as in playing scorge? > > > > > > > > Its a silly argument that you are making. "I do not agree with what other ppl are saying so i will attk thoughts ppl and question there skill." Its going to get you no where and its been proven wrong countless times as skills do get nerfed and buff. > > > > > > > > If that all you can think of saying i think your point of view helps the argument that there is something wrong with scourge as the def of scourge as is becomes attking ppl who are trying to point out why the CLASS is op but not the players them self who are playing it. > > > > > > Well it is a fact. There is a reason that you dont stack Scourges in such an amount in PvP. In organized WvW groups or guild wvw groups. Scourge isn't nearly half as strong as people are overreacting here. Any decently set up raid group will roflstomp such a comp, and yet people argument such a meaningless screenshot of a failed squad as a prove for god-knows how many false arguments simply because it fits their narrow mind. > > > > > > Its not like every argument that scourge is too strong that has been mentioned in this topic has been proven either wrong / or has been thoroughly explained. I know, as a fact that only bad players would honestly complain that much. I dont know much about the State of WvW on NA side, but really, it cant be that much different. > > > > > > I havent seen a single argument on here that really provides a fair point on why scourge should be too strong - just QQ and L2P issues. > > > > > > Stacked scourges? -> hard push them and you win. Scourge has very long cooldowns and bad sustain once you have burned trough barrier (which btw is hard capped at 50% life and 150% total life is nothing against a pushing zerg.) > > > > > > Why scourges stack? -> Its easy because people dont know what to do against them. Of course people always look for the easiest way, just because its easy (and most players that hop on the bandwaggon here are bad scourges that really spam skills without thinking), doenst mean its the best way, the most efficient way or overpowered in any manner. > > > > > > Scourges hit so many targets? -> The effects are rather small in both, damage and effects. Of course if you stack them, it sums up, 10 Scourges can hurt - but so can 10 coordinated hammer revs, or 10 eles with meteor shower and staff skills. And these classes can also support each other with heals, boons and all other goodies, just much more reliable as they can FOCUS on healing / supporting for a period on time. A scourge barely can because its supporting aspects are either tied to the offensive ones (leaving you a choice, damage, or sustain, in the best case both) OR supporting the group vs self -> if teammates are low but you are healthy you have to blow your BIG cooldowns to help them, you cant focus your heal onto one person without sacrificing huge cooldowns, like for example an Ele or druid can. On top of that its barrier, and really not much health recovery in that sense > > > > > > Basicly scourge is a one trick pony -> Offensive skills tied to defensive ones + long cooldowns = huge window of punishment, if played right. Of course if a zerg pirate ships in a bad spot, or fails at movement and pushing it will die rather quick - but really in such a scenario they would have lost against any team comp. > > > > You stack scorge because they are effectively adding 2 players to your group as they hit 10 targets. If ele could hit 10 targets with its other skills then MS (and the reason why MS is still usable) then you would see nothing but eles. As things stand scorge dose not do any thing less then other classes to hit thoughts 10 targets if any thing they tend to do more then most classes as well as braking the stander target caps making them the ideal class in wvw. > > > What are you talking about? Meteor shower has how many hits? 20? 25? each of these hits can hit up to 5 people- where talking about potential 100 ticks of damage from ONE skill. The same for Lava Font. It hits 5 targets up to 4 times = 20 hits. What about tempest or water attunement skills in general? They pulse often, they heal MANY targets, just like druid skills- even if they only heal 5 at times, they are much more spammable due to a lower cooldown. That on a 24 sec cd at best on a 3 sec chanal and a very limited aoe its so much work put in to one skill that its nothing compared to instant cast of any f2-f5 skill so its not even close in ideal of balancing of targets. That how skills that hit so many targets should work you must give up movement and have to wait a long time before you can redo it. Big target aoe spells that impact larg scales should be harder to cast then what scorge has. > > > If scorge could not hit 10 targets then you would see 1 scorge per pt as they will become over stacked and start to over do it with pt only overlapping support and effects. Being able to support and hit 10 targets lets you start to stack up barrier on ppl out side of your pt and outside of a 5 target bomb. > > > Yes and with what frequency and reliability? There is not a single "channeling" barrier skill that allows to spread it out evenly - its for your party and random members. What happens to a zerg that has uneven buffs / barrier when they get bombed? Yes, the less protected targets die early. Reducing the target cap kills the only purpose the espec should bring to the game in the first place - zone controll. Shade skill effects are VERY low tuned effect wise, honestly, it cant get any lower than simple barrier, simple fear, simple condi remove with a skill, excluding skill synergies and the shade strikes. > Its the most reliable effect in the game. You can use the F2-F5 skills even when stunned . > > There a good reason why we do not see 10 target caps size on other support skills why is it ok for scorge to get this unfair treatment for target caps? Even most elite skills dont even brake this 5 target cap. > > because its what the e-spec focuses on? Scourge sucks at raw healing, and defensive boons like ele / druid/ firebrands yet its a support class!!! Why cant i spam aegis, heals and protection on allies?! Why this unfair treatment? Why are shade skills gated behind BOTH cooldown AND Lifeforce? Why cant i use all of my skills on cooldown like an ele or firebrand? Why this unfair treatment? You are comparing apples to pears here. > > No becuse it brakes zerg and makes blobs the only viable way to play wvw. And necro core / reaper eats up lifeforce during there DS and can only use there DS skills when in DS so the easier of use of scorge is so much more then any necro before AND they are stronger. > > Your still not giving a reason why scorge is not op vs other classes and still going after ppl for thinking different then you are so please stop attking the person making the argument and deal with the class. > > Because i dont see any reasonable argument on why it IS op? All i see are some arguments like - they hit 10 targets+ etc. etc. which in a vacuum, doenst matter, the skills could hit 5 targets and PULSE like ele skills do, it comes out to the same thing, yet kills the flavour of the class. Its not OP because it has reasonable counterplay. Its not OP because an properly built Zerg of the same size wipes floor with such a scourge heavy comp. I am saying the same argument i said before and nothing you said and even come close to dealing with the reality of what going on in wvw. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brujeria.7536 Posted May 29, 2018 Share Posted May 29, 2018 > @"Jski.6180" said: > > @"Brujeria.7536" said: > > > @"Jski.6180" said: > > > > @"Brujeria.7536" said: > > > > > @"Jski.6180" said: > > > > > > @"Brujeria.7536" said: > > > > > > > @"Inoki.6048" said: > > > > > > > > @"Awe.1096" said: > > > > > > > >  > > > > > > > > Scourges are fine. I am pretty sure this thing above is just a strange coincidence > > > > > > > > /sarcasm > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I giggle every time I see this :joy: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Astounding how Houston fails to address the obvious and keep it as if it was perfectly OK. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ANet, usually when the majority agrees on the same thing there's good reasons behind it you know ;) > > > > > > > > > > > > The majority of people in WvW are bad players. You know why they are bad? They cry and complain instead of adapting. > > > > > > > > > > > > Any halfway decent zerg cleans the floor against that kinda setup. Just push them, and they die. Even 3 skilled eles with a staff are more dangerous than that an entire zerg of scourges. > > > > > > > > > > Adapting as in playing scorge? > > > > > > > > > > Its a silly argument that you are making. "I do not agree with what other ppl are saying so i will attk thoughts ppl and question there skill." Its going to get you no where and its been proven wrong countless times as skills do get nerfed and buff. > > > > > > > > > > If that all you can think of saying i think your point of view helps the argument that there is something wrong with scourge as the def of scourge as is becomes attking ppl who are trying to point out why the CLASS is op but not the players them self who are playing it. > > > > > > > > Well it is a fact. There is a reason that you dont stack Scourges in such an amount in PvP. In organized WvW groups or guild wvw groups. Scourge isn't nearly half as strong as people are overreacting here. Any decently set up raid group will roflstomp such a comp, and yet people argument such a meaningless screenshot of a failed squad as a prove for god-knows how many false arguments simply because it fits their narrow mind. > > > > > > > > Its not like every argument that scourge is too strong that has been mentioned in this topic has been proven either wrong / or has been thoroughly explained. I know, as a fact that only bad players would honestly complain that much. I dont know much about the State of WvW on NA side, but really, it cant be that much different. > > > > > > > > I havent seen a single argument on here that really provides a fair point on why scourge should be too strong - just QQ and L2P issues. > > > > > > > > Stacked scourges? -> hard push them and you win. Scourge has very long cooldowns and bad sustain once you have burned trough barrier (which btw is hard capped at 50% life and 150% total life is nothing against a pushing zerg.) > > > > > > > > Why scourges stack? -> Its easy because people dont know what to do against them. Of course people always look for the easiest way, just because its easy (and most players that hop on the bandwaggon here are bad scourges that really spam skills without thinking), doenst mean its the best way, the most efficient way or overpowered in any manner. > > > > > > > > Scourges hit so many targets? -> The effects are rather small in both, damage and effects. Of course if you stack them, it sums up, 10 Scourges can hurt - but so can 10 coordinated hammer revs, or 10 eles with meteor shower and staff skills. And these classes can also support each other with heals, boons and all other goodies, just much more reliable as they can FOCUS on healing / supporting for a period on time. A scourge barely can because its supporting aspects are either tied to the offensive ones (leaving you a choice, damage, or sustain, in the best case both) OR supporting the group vs self -> if teammates are low but you are healthy you have to blow your BIG cooldowns to help them, you cant focus your heal onto one person without sacrificing huge cooldowns, like for example an Ele or druid can. On top of that its barrier, and really not much health recovery in that sense > > > > > > > > Basicly scourge is a one trick pony -> Offensive skills tied to defensive ones + long cooldowns = huge window of punishment, if played right. Of course if a zerg pirate ships in a bad spot, or fails at movement and pushing it will die rather quick - but really in such a scenario they would have lost against any team comp. > > > > > > You stack scorge because they are effectively adding 2 players to your group as they hit 10 targets. If ele could hit 10 targets with its other skills then MS (and the reason why MS is still usable) then you would see nothing but eles. As things stand scorge dose not do any thing less then other classes to hit thoughts 10 targets if any thing they tend to do more then most classes as well as braking the stander target caps making them the ideal class in wvw. > > > > > What are you talking about? Meteor shower has how many hits? 20? 25? each of these hits can hit up to 5 people- where talking about potential 100 ticks of damage from ONE skill. The same for Lava Font. It hits 5 targets up to 4 times = 20 hits. What about tempest or water attunement skills in general? They pulse often, they heal MANY targets, just like druid skills- even if they only heal 5 at times, they are much more spammable due to a lower cooldown. > > That on a 24 sec cd at best on a 3 sec chanal and a very limited aoe its so much work put in to one skill that its nothing compared to instant cast of any f2-f5 skill so its not even close in ideal of balancing of targets. That how skills that hit so many targets should work you must give up movement and have to wait a long time before you can redo it. Big target aoe spells that impact larg scales should be harder to cast then what scorge has. > > Yes, its one skill with a 24 second cooldown that surpasses all potential damage a scourge can do. With a single skill. You still have other weapon skills, spamable, utility skills and 3 more attunements. Scourge doenst give up movement - it gives up its base profession mechanic death shroud. Thats a much bigger deal. And again: the effects of scourge skills are not potent. They are instant and affect more targets, but from the individual effects they are weak. A single barrier, a single condi convert, a single fear and a barrier/damage skill. Of course these can and will be traited, and modified, but by that you also sacrifice some of its purpose because its STILL the same skill with the same cooldown. Need some heal now and the fear later? Sorry bro not possible. Need condi remove now and boon remove later? Sorry bro, not possible. Need personal defense now and damage later? Sorry bro, not possible. That all gated behind resource cost, bigger cooldowns and the sacrifice of a core profession mechanic is more than enough of a tradeoff. > > > If scorge could not hit 10 targets then you would see 1 scorge per pt as they will become over stacked and start to over do it with pt only overlapping support and effects. Being able to support and hit 10 targets lets you start to stack up barrier on ppl out side of your pt and outside of a 5 target bomb. > > > > > Yes and with what frequency and reliability? There is not a single "channeling" barrier skill that allows to spread it out evenly - its for your party and random members. What happens to a zerg that has uneven buffs / barrier when they get bombed? Yes, the less protected targets die early. Reducing the target cap kills the only purpose the espec should bring to the game in the first place - zone controll. Shade skill effects are VERY low tuned effect wise, honestly, it cant get any lower than simple barrier, simple fear, simple condi remove with a skill, excluding skill synergies and the shade strikes. > > > Its the most reliable effect in the game. You can use the F2-F5 skills even when stunned > . Yes but you cant focus it on targets. You can do all, or nothing. You cant single target heal or barrier on a short cooldown as needed. You can only do it to all allies, with that big cooldown, even though you may need it for allies now, and a few seconds later for yourself. Its not possible, to split as an ele or druid can with ease. > > > There a good reason why we do not see 10 target caps size on other support skills why is it ok for scorge to get this unfair treatment for target caps? Even most elite skills dont even brake this 5 target cap. > > > > because its what the e-spec focuses on? Scourge sucks at raw healing, and defensive boons like ele / druid/ firebrands yet its a support class!!! Why cant i spam aegis, heals and protection on allies?! Why this unfair treatment? Why are shade skills gated behind BOTH cooldown AND Lifeforce? Why cant i use all of my skills on cooldown like an ele or firebrand? Why this unfair treatment? You are comparing apples to pears here. > > > > No becuse it brakes zerg and makes blobs the only viable way to play wvw. And necro core / reaper eats up lifeforce during there DS and can only use there DS skills when in DS so the easier of use of scorge is so much more then any necro before AND they are stronger. > wait what? Does scourge break zergs or create zergs? You dont make any sense here. Its actually quite the opposite -> the lesser targets the worse scourge is, so actually it should create smaller groups, which is not the case as people bandwagon instead of adapt or build proper teams. It doenst really matter what reaper / core necro does with lifeforce, its the fact that scourge is the only espec in the game that SACRIFICES something completly. it sacrifices the conventional shroud. unlike berserker or mirage or ele that has still ALL parts of their kit intact and at the disposal, scourge offers that aspect completly and on top sacrifices its personal safety trough shroud for AOE skills. fair enough of a tradeoff. > > > Your still not giving a reason why scorge is not op vs other classes and still going after ppl for thinking different then you are so please stop attking the person making the argument and deal with the class. > > > > Because i dont see any reasonable argument on why it IS op? All i see are some arguments like - they hit 10 targets+ etc. etc. which in a vacuum, doenst matter, the skills could hit 5 targets and PULSE like ele skills do, it comes out to the same thing, yet kills the flavour of the class. Its not OP because it has reasonable counterplay. Its not OP because an properly built Zerg of the same size wipes floor with such a scourge heavy comp. > > I am saying the same argument i said before and nothing you said and even come close to dealing with the reality of what going on in wvw. > your arguments are non existant, its just scourge hits many targets and can spam skills while stunned - both are completly okay as there is a huge amount of tradeoff that you conveniently ignore cause you lack real arguments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meetshield.1756 Posted May 30, 2018 Share Posted May 30, 2018 I do think Scourges should be nerfed more on the Condi side, pre-change Reaper was a good condi / power balance class with very dynamic play. Scourge is brainless condi spam. Scourge would likely be fine if it were a pure power class, the power side of scourge has remained somewhat untouched and is strong. So either they buff the condi clearing of all the classes or the change scourges condi from Torment to bleed, so that Necro remains the main bleed based condi class. The issue with scourge is that he can place 6 conditions on you instantly at 900-1200 range. And if you have 5-10 scourges doing that ... Almost none of the other classes except Firebrand can deal with the combined condition pressure so instead of killing 1 player they kill 10 players. As for the counter to scourge zerg... Power counters Condi... 1200-1500 range counters 900-1200 range. Staff Weaver is working just fine for me to counter the scourge zergs. 1 Staff Weaver holding 20-30 scourges back seems to baffle them. Its quite funny. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
intox.6347 Posted May 30, 2018 Share Posted May 30, 2018 People still talking about condi scourge, but wvw guilds running power scourge and lot of more ppl. Lesser survivability... but that spike with wells is heavy bomb. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meetshield.1756 Posted May 30, 2018 Share Posted May 30, 2018 Yeah i ran power scourge 6 months ago, just came back to the game, and our server is stuck with CD so we are seeing the bottom feeder condi scourge zergs... Weaver would still counter power scourge. I would prefer scourge be pure support honestly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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