Request for swim speed infusions

[Swagger.1459]

1. A very clear explanation about base swim speed numbers and swim speed numbers modified by infusions. Also, the guild chat was vague, so let us know clearly what modifies swim speed, what stacks, what doesn’t. Like this below please...

 

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Movement_Speed

 

2. Please change the infusion reward formula to something, well, far more reasonable. Also, let’s evaluate, and improve, methods to obtain these infusions... A direct port of the fractal infusion formulas isn’t really healthy for these swim speed infusions.

 

...I’m pretty sure these items weren’t meant to be viewed as “you don’t need them, so ignore, but I’m going to take advantage of things and make a profit off of the trading post”.

[SlippyCheeze.5483]

> @"Swagger.1459" said:

> 2. Please change the infusion reward formula to something, well, far more reasonable. Also, let’s evaluate, and improve, methods to obtain these infusions... A direct port of the fractal infusion formulas isn’t really healthy for these swim speed infusions.

 

Why not? I mean, the benefits are kind of marginal beyond +10, the cost of obtaining +20 is fairly low, and they are high priced on the market because 512 of them buy a shiny new skin ... which, once "early adopters" have their hands on them, will cause a drop in demand and, consequently, price.

[Swagger.1459]

> @"SlippyCheeze.5483" said:

> > @"Swagger.1459" said:

> > 2. Please change the infusion reward formula to something, well, far more reasonable. Also, let’s evaluate, and improve, methods to obtain these infusions... A direct port of the fractal infusion formulas isn’t really healthy for these swim speed infusions.

>

> Why not? I mean, the benefits are kind of marginal beyond +10, the cost of obtaining +20 is fairly low, and they are high priced on the market because 512 of them buy a shiny new skin ... which, once "early adopters" have their hands on them, will cause a drop in demand and, consequently, price.

 

“Why not?”

 

Rewards should be about rewards, not a poorly designed system that mostly serves to feed long term profits for marketeers...

 

Also...

 

"Even assuming the price would go down, you'd need 10,4k gold if the +10 infusions would drop to 1 silver."

 

 

"It's obvious that this item is based on being a long-term goal, even if it is a little rediculous. For comparison:

• It takes 220 +10 infusions to reach the +30 infusion.

• That is a total of 1.048.576 +10 infusions.

• If you were to get an average of 3 infusions a day, it would take you 349.525 (and a third) days.

• At the time of calculation, it would take ~943k gold to buy it all (and the price has gone up right now)

• Even assuming the price would go down, you'd need 10,4k gold if the +10 infusions would drop to 1 silver.

• You'd lose 1% of swimming speed (presumably) for half the cost of all this.

It's a little overtuned, don't worry about it, although it would be nice to know if this huge investment was intended. Only the richest of tp barons even stand a chance of reaching this infusion, and that is while buying up most of, if not all, the listings. If you want to make your main as powerful as possible, stop earlier. For comparison, at the current price, it would cost ~921 gold in order to get the +20 infusion."

 

 

“Earlier today a friend came to me and pointed out that in order to maximize the swim speed infusion, it seems to require over 1 million of the new swim speed infusions.

Calculation:

 

+10 Swim Speed Infusion x32 ->

+15 Swim Speed Infusion x32 ->

+20 Swim Speed Infusion x32 ->

+25 Swim Speed Infusion x32 ->

+30 Swim Speed Infusion

= 32 ^ 4 = 1,048576

According to the wiki, the drop rate from the daily chest indicates they can be acquired at a rate of 0-4 (Avg 2) per day.

At an acquisition rate of 2 per day, and 365 days per year, we can calculate that it will take 1,436 years to achieve the maximum level swim speed infusion. I'm sure that my great-great-great-great-great-great grandchildren will appreciate getting to their locations faster when they are playing GW2 on their retro-gaming simulators, but for the rest of us mortals this type of reward seems, to put it lightly, quite poorly tuned.

Is this correct? Even if the drop rates for this item were 100 times higher, it would seem like excessive grind.”

[Illconceived Was Na.9781]

> @"Swagger.1459" said:

> Rewards should be about rewards, not a poorly designed system that mostly serves to feed long term profits for marketeers...

 

First, it's still a reward. Second, if the prices are falling, it's actually sinking money from marketeers. Third, having the high Swim+30 item means there's a theoretical demand, which will help maintain some value.

 

But more importantly, you realize that the Swim+30 cap is entirely arbitrary, right? They could have stopped at Swim+20 or Swim+40 instead. Swim+20 would still be expensive, but not as interesting; Swim+40 would obviously be something no one was ever meant to obtain. Swim+30 is there entirely so people have a ridiculous goal to focus on, which is something ANet has done before and will continue to do in the future.

 

Similarly, the game also has a couple of items with drop rates so low, there's a constant line of people waiting to pay 10k on the TP for them. Having expensive and largely unobtainable items makes loot more appealing. If there were no Swim+30, the price for the Swim+1 infusions would be dropping even more, making it less of a reward.

 

In short, this is a self-imposed concern. It's simply not the sort of system that you'd suggest, but that doesn't make it "bad" or "poorly designed;" it just makes it not your cup of tea.

 

So instead of worrying about it, why not pretend that there is no Swim+30, just a Swim+20 cap?

[Swagger.1459]

> @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:

> > @"Swagger.1459" said:

> > Rewards should be about rewards, not a poorly designed system that mostly serves to feed long term profits for marketeers...

>

> First, it's still a reward. Second, if the prices are falling, it's actually sinking money from marketeers. Third, having the high Swim+30 item means there's a theoretical demand, which will help maintain some value.

>

> But more importantly, you realize that the Swim+30 cap is entirely arbitrary, right? They could have stopped at Swim+20 or Swim+40 instead. Swim+20 would still be expensive, but not as interesting; Swim+40 would obviously be something no one was ever meant to obtain. Swim+30 is there entirely so people have a ridiculous goal to focus on, which is something ANet has done before and will continue to do in the future.

>

> Similarly, the game also has a couple of items with drop rates so low, there's a constant line of people waiting to pay 10k on the TP for them. Having expensive and largely unobtainable items makes loot more appealing. If there were no Swim+30, the price for the Swim+1 infusions would be dropping even more, making it less of a reward.

>

> In short, this is a self-imposed concern. It's simply not the sort of system that you'd suggest, but that doesn't make it "bad" or "poorly designed;" it just makes it not your cup of tea.

>

> So instead of worrying about it, why not pretend that there is no Swim+30, just a Swim+20 cap?

 

 

Obviously these are a reward... you should absorb that entire sentence to understand the meaning.

 

What do you stand to lose by a change in the reward structure to something reasonable?

 

“expensive and largely unobtainable items makes loot more appealing”... to whom? The marketeers who would like to supplement their daily gold intake?

 

You have said these items are nothing to “worry” about, “unimportant”, “not needed”... so by that extension why even have them at all? right?

 

Are they a long term goal? That would take over 1k human years to achieve gathering... That’s reasonable to defend right?

 

The price might drop so investors would lose money? You fully know that given the process to obtain them will keep the price higher.

 

I don’t care about what Anet has done before. I don’t care about any comparisons you are trying to make. This is not about the confetti infusion. This isn’t about the Chak infusion. This is not about fractal ar infusions... this is about these particular items, not related to any other item(s), or requirements to obtain said item(s) in the game. That’s the argument here.

 

The devs took the time and resources to revamp underwater skills, create rewards for underwater play... and try to hype up these additions.. (and I’m pretty sure more underwater “stuff” for the game will come) ... and I’m willing to bet that more in the community would prefer a different reward structure for these items.

 

And I’m going to make an assumption here, so feel free to correct me if I’m wrong... You seem to keep your fingers on the economy pulse, and I get the feeling you work the market for gold, so if you prefer this type of reward structure so you can benefit from sales of “unimportant” items, then just say so... I mention that because your angle seems to come off as someone who would rather benefit from these infusions, than have a reasonable reward system for them.

 

So you know my angle... I play for fun. I have sunk easily over 1k cash PER year into the game, and can buy anything I want. I sat in raids for a year tossing out globs of ectos, and tipping on every run, to get legendary armor... even tipped the group 2k+ gold worth of ectos when I completed the last run for armor. I buy any gen 1 legendary when I want. I will buy anything with cash here if I want it, including whatever the costs are for the swim infusions... I have zero problem with high end items, costly items, long term goals.... whatever... However, I do have a problem with the ridiculous way these particular items are being handled... My gripe isn’t about me, it’s about the devs placing in a completely unreasonable reward structure, and process, for these particular items for the community at large.... Rewards in HoT were revamped to (paraphrased) “be mindful of players time and effort”... PoF rewards are dropping like crazy because the devs knew the mistakes from HoT... If you think a 1k human year reward structure, or one that would cost minimum10k gold (if these items were 1 silver each), reasonable for these particular items in game, you’re definitely not thinking in any rational way, or about the community at all.. You're just coming across as someone who wants to make gold by taking advantage of a flawed “reward” structure.

[Blocki.4931]

It's okay for an item like this to exist. It can be as unfeasible as it is. We don't know what's planned in the future. Perhaps normal underwater mobs will get infusions added to their drop table, maybe the underwater fractal will have it as a reward too after it got reworked. Maybe we get to exchange normal agony infusions for it.. everything is possible.

 

Besides that, I don't mind another gold sink existing in the game since it's not required for anything.

[Zaklex.6308]

> @"Swagger.1459" said:

> > @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:

> > > @"Swagger.1459" said:

> > > Rewards should be about rewards, not a poorly designed system that mostly serves to feed long term profits for marketeers...

> >

> > First, it's still a reward. Second, if the prices are falling, it's actually sinking money from marketeers. Third, having the high Swim+30 item means there's a theoretical demand, which will help maintain some value.

> >

> > But more importantly, you realize that the Swim+30 cap is entirely arbitrary, right? They could have stopped at Swim+20 or Swim+40 instead. Swim+20 would still be expensive, but not as interesting; Swim+40 would obviously be something no one was ever meant to obtain. Swim+30 is there entirely so people have a ridiculous goal to focus on, which is something ANet has done before and will continue to do in the future.

> >

> > Similarly, the game also has a couple of items with drop rates so low, there's a constant line of people waiting to pay 10k on the TP for them. Having expensive and largely unobtainable items makes loot more appealing. If there were no Swim+30, the price for the Swim+1 infusions would be dropping even more, making it less of a reward.

> >

> > In short, this is a self-imposed concern. It's simply not the sort of system that you'd suggest, but that doesn't make it "bad" or "poorly designed;" it just makes it not your cup of tea.

> >

> > So instead of worrying about it, why not pretend that there is no Swim+30, just a Swim+20 cap?

>

>

> Obviously these are a reward... you should absorb that entire sentence to understand the meaning.

>

> What do you stand to lose by a change in the reward structure to something reasonable?

>

> “expensive and largely unobtainable items makes loot more appealing”... to whom? The marketeers who would like to supplement their daily gold intake?

>

> You have said these items are nothing to “worry” about, “unimportant”, “not needed”... so by that extension why even have them at all? right?

>

> Are they a long term goal? That would take over 1k human years to achieve gathering... That’s reasonable to defend right?

>

> The price might drop so investors would lose money? You fully know that given the process to obtain them will keep the price higher.

>

> I don’t care about what Anet has done before. I don’t care about any comparisons you are trying to make. This is not about the confetti infusion. This isn’t about the Chak infusion. This is not about fractal ar infusions... this is about these particular items, not related to any other item(s), or requirements to obtain said item(s) in the game. That’s the argument here.

>

> The devs took the time and resources to revamp underwater skills, create rewards for underwater play... and try to hype up these additions.. (and I’m pretty sure more underwater “stuff” for the game will come) ... and I’m willing to bet that more in the community would prefer a different reward structure for these items.

>

> And I’m going to make an assumption here, so feel free to correct me if I’m wrong... You seem to keep your fingers on the economy pulse, and I get the feeling you work the market for gold, so if you prefer this type of reward structure so you can benefit from sales of “unimportant” items, then just say so... I mention that because your angle seems to come off as someone who would rather benefit from these infusions, than have a reasonable reward system for them.

>

> So you know my angle... I play for fun. I have sunk easily over 1k cash PER year into the game, and can buy anything I want. I sat in raids for a year tossing out globs of ectos, and tipping on every run, to get legendary armor... even tipped the group 2k+ gold worth of ectos when I completed the last run for armor. I buy any gen 1 legendary when I want. I will buy anything with cash here if I want it, including whatever the costs are for the swim infusions... I have zero problem with high end items, costly items, long term goals.... whatever... However, I do have a problem with the ridiculous way these particular items are being handled... My gripe isn’t about me, it’s about the devs placing in a completely unreasonable reward structure, and process, for these particular items for the community at large.... Rewards in HoT were revamped to (paraphrased) “be mindful of players time and effort”... PoF rewards are dropping like crazy because the devs knew the mistakes from HoT... If you think a 1k human year reward structure, or one that would cost minimum10k gold (if these items were 1 silver each), reasonable for these particular items in game, you’re definitely not thinking in any rational way, or about the community at all.. You're just coming across as someone who wants to make gold by taking advantage of a flawed “reward” structure.

 

Perhaps the math is not correct or the formula for creating the higher end swim infusions is wrong somewhere along the way, because if it's designed the same as Fractal infusions then we're most likely looking at an upcoming boost in locations to obtain the smaller infusions(and they might want to adjust the daily average to 3 from 2).

[SlippyCheeze.5483]

> @"Swagger.1459" said:

> > @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:

> > > @"Swagger.1459" said:

> > > Rewards should be about rewards, not a poorly designed system that mostly serves to feed long term profits for marketeers...

> >

> > First, it's still a reward. Second, if the prices are falling, it's actually sinking money from marketeers. Third, having the high Swim+30 item means there's a theoretical demand, which will help maintain some value.

> >

> > But more importantly, you realize that the Swim+30 cap is entirely arbitrary, right? They could have stopped at Swim+20 or Swim+40 instead. Swim+20 would still be expensive, but not as interesting; Swim+40 would obviously be something no one was ever meant to obtain. Swim+30 is there entirely so people have a ridiculous goal to focus on, which is something ANet has done before and will continue to do in the future.

> >

> > Similarly, the game also has a couple of items with drop rates so low, there's a constant line of people waiting to pay 10k on the TP for them. Having expensive and largely unobtainable items makes loot more appealing. If there were no Swim+30, the price for the Swim+1 infusions would be dropping even more, making it less of a reward.

> >

> > In short, this is a self-imposed concern. It's simply not the sort of system that you'd suggest, but that doesn't make it "bad" or "poorly designed;" it just makes it not your cup of tea.

> >

> > So instead of worrying about it, why not pretend that there is no Swim+30, just a Swim+20 cap?

>

> Obviously these are a reward... you should absorb that entire sentence to understand the meaning.

> What do you stand to lose by a change in the reward structure to something reasonable?

 

I think I see where you are coming from, and while I completely disagree with you, you have a reasoned position. Ultimately, I think @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" is right, and realistically people will -- as they do with fractal agony infusions -- simply stop caring beyond a certain point.

 

Having a +10 (== 33%) infusion is fast enough that, for me, underwater movement now feels comparable to land movement, where previously it felt slow and cumbersome. A realistic +15 or +20 would be around 50 or 66 percent improvement, enough to feel fast. I think that is a perfectly reasonable reward structure for what is, honestly, a pretty trivial daily.

 

(Also, the new underwater breather skin is cool and all, but not a must have, which I also think makes it a perfectly reasonable reward for investing some time into.)

 

> You have said these items are nothing to “worry” about, “unimportant”, “not needed”... so by that extension why even have them at all? right?

 

Because they are rewarding, and fun to work towards, and trivially address one pain point of underwater activity without costing substantial time. (Like, literally doing one chest, with the free key, is sufficient to get you the most significant part of the bonus.)

 

Part of our disagreement is over items that are, essentially, vanity goals. Like the title for donating 1,000 gold to the Castaway Circus, I'm OK with things that are purely for stupid vanity and nothing more. You are not, and that is OK.

 

> Are they a long term goal? That would take over 1k human years to achieve gathering... That’s reasonable to defend right?

 

Of course it is. I'm not arguing in bad faith (and I'm confident to say that @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" isn't either), I just don't agree with you. I assume the reverse is true: you legitimately think this is a bad reward structure, for honest reasons, having considered it.

 

I don't think we can agree here, as our difference is not around the edges, but at the fundamental question of "are essentially unobtainable rewards appropriate."

 

We can, however, respectfully disagree.

 

[Illconceived Was Na.9781]

I simply don't agree that the rewards are flawed or that it's that big an issue in the manner in which the OP describes.

 

* Swim+10 is a fine reward. It's worth a couple of extra gold per day... and will be for at least a short while.

* Being able to upgrade them to whatever size we want seems fine to me — it gives us options.

* Setting a limit... I have no idea why ANet decided that there should a limit, or that it should stop at Swim+30, a largely unobtainable goal. But that doesn't make it flawed. It just means that ANet set the limit higher than we can imagine affording.

 

The OP seems to think that the reward is the Swim+30 infusion — it's not, the reward is the Swim+10 infusion, with the option to upgrade or turn them in for new skins (that cost 250 infusions, not a million). Swim+30 is simply the arbitrary max-sized infusion; it could have been Swim+20 or Swim+30.

 

****

 

 

> @"Swagger.1459" said:

> Obviously these are a reward... you should absorb that entire sentence to understand the meaning.

No, the reward is the Swim+10. The Swim+30 is an optional and arbitrary goal for combining those rewards.

 

> What do you stand to lose by a change in the reward structure to something reasonable?

You seem to be under the misunderstanding that I care one way or another. I'm not objecting to a change; I don't see the value to the game for ANet to spend the energy worrying about it.

 

In fact, if it were up to me, and as I've suggested before, (a) breathers wouldn't be in the game at all and (b) increased swim speed would be a mastery instead of an infusion.

 

> “expensive and largely unobtainable items makes loot more appealing”... to whom? The marketeers who would like to supplement their daily gold intake?

To everyone who likes rolling the dice hoping for a big, big prize, as so many people do. When a game lacks "expensive items," including "largely unobtainable ones," a lot of people lose interest because they think it's boring and grindy.

 

> You have said these items are nothing to “worry” about, “unimportant”, “not needed”... so by that extension why even have them at all? right?

Swim+30, yes, there's no particular need for it. Which is why I have been saying: pretend as if it isn't in the game.

 

> Are they a long term goal? That would take over 1k human years to achieve gathering... That’s reasonable to defend right?

It's a long term goal for people who have more gold than you or I.

 

> The price might drop so investors would lose money? You fully know that given the process to obtain them will keep the price higher.

The price on Swim+10 might drop, so _you_ would lose money selling off your excess.

 

> I don’t care about what Anet has done before. I don’t care about any comparisons you are trying to make. This is not about the confetti infusion. This isn’t about the Chak infusion. This is not about fractal ar infusions... this is about these particular items, not related to any other item(s), or requirements to obtain said item(s) in the game. That’s the argument here.

I get that you're saying it. I'm saying: the ship has sailed _in this game_ for that particular argument. It's not the first and it won't be the last item like this.

 

> The devs took the time and resources to revamp underwater skills, create rewards for underwater play... and try to hype up these additions.. (and I’m pretty sure more underwater “stuff” for the game will come) ... and I’m willing to bet that more in the community would prefer a different reward structure for these items.

It's always a safe bet that people will prefer getting more for equal or lesser effort.

 

>

> And I’m going to make an assumption here, so feel free to correct me if I’m wrong... You seem to keep your fingers on the economy pulse, and I get the feeling you work the market for gold, so if you prefer this type of reward structure so you can benefit from sales of “unimportant” items, then just say so... I mention that because your angle seems to come off as someone who would rather benefit from these infusions, than have a reasonable reward system for them.

First, if I were the venal sort of person you're imagining, why would I tell you and ruin my markets?

But second, no, you're absolutely wrong: I don't see any way at all for any profit from investing in Swim+10: in the long run, the price will keep dropping. It's vaguely similar to the price of AR+1 (trend is down, even though there have been periodic spikes as ANet has added new sinks) or Mini Professor Mew (price was a gold or more for months when introduced; it's now worth pennies on the TP). There's only a limited number of people who want them in bulk, and once they obtain the amount they 'need', the demand will drop. Meanwhile, the supply will continue to increase as people collect 2 or more each day.

 

 

> You're just coming across as someone who wants to make gold by taking advantage of a flawed “reward” structure.

I simply don't agree that it's flawed or that it's that big an issue in the manner in which you describe.

Swim+10 is a fine reward. Being able to upgrade them to whatever size we want seems fine to me. Setting a limit... I have no idea why ANet decided that there should a limit, but that doesn't make it flawed. It just means there's a limit.

 

 

[Daddicus.6128]

I don't care about the price, but I would like a way to actually get them. You only get around 2 per chest (average), and you need thousands of them to do anything useful.

 

With only being able to open one chest a day, and with drops of keys being exceptionally rare, there's just no way a normal player can ever get anything useful out of them. We're talking years of play time for the skins. Longer if you want higher-level infusions (one skin is the same cost as a +9).

[Inculpatus cedo.9234]

Well, a 33% speed boost is pretty useful, and only takes a few minutes to acquire. At least, seems pretty useful to me.

As for the skin, I don't think several months, or less with Gold, is outrageous. But, that's just me.

[Tanner Blackfeather.6509]

> @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:

> But more importantly, you realize that the Swim+30 cap is entirely arbitrary, right? They could have stopped at Swim+20 or Swim+40 instead. Swim+20 would still be expensive, but not as interesting; Swim+40 would obviously be something no one was ever meant to obtain. Swim+30 is there entirely so people have a ridiculous goal to focus on, which is something ANet has done before and will continue to do in the future.

 

I'm thinking it might actually not be arbitrary.

Wiki research indicates Swim+10 is +33% movement speed. It is *speculated* that it's a linear increase of 3.3% per +1. That would put +30 at 100% (technically 99.9%) movement speed.

It is *possible* that is the highest it can mechanically go and still function with Swiftness etc.

 

So - speculation, but *might* not be entirely arbitrary.

[Rauderi.8706]

> @"SlippyCheeze.5483" said:

> Why not? I mean, the benefits are kind of marginal beyond +10, the cost of obtaining +20 is fairly low, and they are high priced on the market because 512 of them buy a shiny new skin ... which, once "early adopters" have their hands on them, will cause a drop in demand and, consequently, price.

 

I too am willing to surf these dailies for bonus gold, until the infusions get kitten cheap, then I can buy Ascended aquabreathers for (hopefully) far less than it would take to farm/make them.

My only bit of the wishlist would be that the swim infusion had its own dedicated slot. Not that a +9 infusion means a hill of beans (<.5% power dps...), but some folks want every edge they can get, even underwater.

[SlippyCheeze.5483]

> @"Rauderi.8706" said:

> > @"SlippyCheeze.5483" said:

> > Why not? I mean, the benefits are kind of marginal beyond +10, the cost of obtaining +20 is fairly low, and they are high priced on the market because 512 of them buy a shiny new skin ... which, once "early adopters" have their hands on them, will cause a drop in demand and, consequently, price.

>

> I too am willing to surf these dailies for bonus gold, until the infusions get kitten cheap, then I can buy Ascended aquabreathers for (hopefully) far less than it would take to farm/make them.

> My only bit of the wishlist would be that the swim infusion had its own dedicated slot. Not that a +9 infusion means a hill of beans (<.5% power dps...), but some folks want every edge they can get, even underwater.

 

You mean the +5 infusions here, which sit on the agony infusions, yes? I'm sure people are upset about that. Way too many people over-value marginal amounts of damage generating stats, when random chance makes significantly more difference to their performance. :)

[Swagger.1459]

> @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:

> I simply don't agree that the rewards are flawed or that it's that big an issue in the manner in which the OP describes.

>

> * Swim+10 is a fine reward. It's worth a couple of extra gold per day... and will be for at least a short while.

> * Being able to upgrade them to whatever size we want seems fine to me — it gives us options.

> * Setting a limit... I have no idea why ANet decided that there should a limit, or that it should stop at Swim+30, a largely unobtainable goal. But that doesn't make it flawed. It just means that ANet set the limit higher than we can imagine affording.

>

> The OP seems to think that the reward is the Swim+30 infusion — it's not, the reward is the Swim+10 infusion, with the option to upgrade or turn them in for new skins (that cost 250 infusions, not a million). Swim+30 is simply the arbitrary max-sized infusion; it could have been Swim+20 or Swim+30.

>

> ****

>

>

> > @"Swagger.1459" said:

> > Obviously these are a reward... you should absorb that entire sentence to understand the meaning.

> No, the reward is the Swim+10. The Swim+30 is an optional and arbitrary goal for combining those rewards.

>

> > What do you stand to lose by a change in the reward structure to something reasonable?

> You seem to be under the misunderstanding that I care one way or another. I'm not objecting to a change; I don't see the value to the game for ANet to spend the energy worrying about it.

>

> In fact, if it were up to me, and as I've suggested before, (a) breathers wouldn't be in the game at all and (b) increased swim speed would be a mastery instead of an infusion.

>

> > “expensive and largely unobtainable items makes loot more appealing”... to whom? The marketeers who would like to supplement their daily gold intake?

> To everyone who likes rolling the dice hoping for a big, big prize, as so many people do. When a game lacks "expensive items," including "largely unobtainable ones," a lot of people lose interest because they think it's boring and grindy.

>

> > You have said these items are nothing to “worry” about, “unimportant”, “not needed”... so by that extension why even have them at all? right?

> Swim+30, yes, there's no particular need for it. Which is why I have been saying: pretend as if it isn't in the game.

>

> > Are they a long term goal? That would take over 1k human years to achieve gathering... That’s reasonable to defend right?

> It's a long term goal for people who have more gold than you or I.

>

> > The price might drop so investors would lose money? You fully know that given the process to obtain them will keep the price higher.

> The price on Swim+10 might drop, so _you_ would lose money selling off your excess.

>

> > I don’t care about what Anet has done before. I don’t care about any comparisons you are trying to make. This is not about the confetti infusion. This isn’t about the Chak infusion. This is not about fractal ar infusions... this is about these particular items, not related to any other item(s), or requirements to obtain said item(s) in the game. That’s the argument here.

> I get that you're saying it. I'm saying: the ship has sailed _in this game_ for that particular argument. It's not the first and it won't be the last item like this.

>

> > The devs took the time and resources to revamp underwater skills, create rewards for underwater play... and try to hype up these additions.. (and I’m pretty sure more underwater “stuff” for the game will come) ... and I’m willing to bet that more in the community would prefer a different reward structure for these items.

> It's always a safe bet that people will prefer getting more for equal or lesser effort.

>

> >

> > And I’m going to make an assumption here, so feel free to correct me if I’m wrong... You seem to keep your fingers on the economy pulse, and I get the feeling you work the market for gold, so if you prefer this type of reward structure so you can benefit from sales of “unimportant” items, then just say so... I mention that because your angle seems to come off as someone who would rather benefit from these infusions, than have a reasonable reward system for them.

> First, if I were the venal sort of person you're imagining, why would I tell you and ruin my markets?

> But second, no, you're absolutely wrong: I don't see any way at all for any profit from investing in Swim+10: in the long run, the price will keep dropping. It's vaguely similar to the price of AR+1 (trend is down, even though there have been periodic spikes as ANet has added new sinks) or Mini Professor Mew (price was a gold or more for months when introduced; it's now worth pennies on the TP). There's only a limited number of people who want them in bulk, and once they obtain the amount they 'need', the demand will drop. Meanwhile, the supply will continue to increase as people collect 2 or more each day.

>

>

> > You're just coming across as someone who wants to make gold by taking advantage of a flawed “reward” structure.

> I simply don't agree that it's flawed or that it's that big an issue in the manner in which you describe.

> Swim+10 is a fine reward. Being able to upgrade them to whatever size we want seems fine to me. Setting a limit... I have no idea why ANet decided that there should a limit, but that doesn't make it flawed. It just means there's a limit.

>

>

 

I’m going to simplify my comments to avoid dragging this out...

 

That’s great you’d prefer a different design, as do I.

 

A direct port of the fractal AR infusion system doesn’t fit into the “reward” box of these swim infusions, but that’s what’s been done. There are a plethora of other tasteful reward designs that could have been used, and ones that avoid using “largely unobtainable”, “unimportant”, “arbitrary” rewards that force players into the market, as opposed to a reward “journey”... It appears that the devs are more focused on gold sink designs first, as opposed to implementing a decent reward system (that can also serve as a gold sink) to launch underwater play improvements.