whoknocks.4935 Posted May 15, 2018 Author Share Posted May 15, 2018 > @"Oneira.7691" said: > The endless whining about mesmers and scourges (it used to be about thieves and guardian bunker builds) is why I don't play pvp anymore. > > I've been killed by scourges more times than I have hours in my life, but I don't come on here screaming for them to be nerfed. I just try to figure out how to deal with them better. If they happen to be 1st tier, well then someone's going to be. If you nerf mesmer and scourge into the ground, then some other class(es) is going to dominate and the calls for nerfs will go on and won. Spellbreaker is easy to play low risk and high reward spec as well, but i have no problems fighting one, and you still have many counterplay to it. Mesmer and scourge (especially with fb) have zero counterplay and it's unfun having constantly 10 condis after you cleanse them 3 times. If everybody shut up it's obvious they won't do anything about it, but making posts and posts and post i hope finally they will listen and do something about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawdler.8521 Posted May 15, 2018 Share Posted May 15, 2018 > @"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said: > Mesmer is and has been for the majority of the games life-span, one of the strongest if not **the strongest** class in PvP. The sheer value a portal gives to a team is un-contested. How many of the top 100 in each PvP season has been mesmers, historically speaking? Just wondering, it would be interesting to see the data. Surely someone can compile it? Because going by this, at least 50 out of 100 players is mesmers. Who *wouldnt* play **the strongest** class in PvP? Playing anything else would be intentionally gimping yourself. Since the top 100 has to be the best of the best, there should be little gimped classes there. Only the strongest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Math.5123 Posted May 15, 2018 Share Posted May 15, 2018 > @"Dawdler.8521" said: > > @"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said: > > Mesmer is and has been for the majority of the games life-span, one of the strongest if not **the strongest** class in PvP. The sheer value a portal gives to a team is un-contested. > > How many of the top 100 in each PvP season has been mesmers, historically speaking? > > Just wondering, it would be interesting to see the data. Surely someone can compile it? > > Because going by this, at least 50 out of 100 players is mesmers. Who *wouldnt* play **the strongest** class in PvP? Playing anything else would be intentionally gimping yourself. Since the top 100 has to be the best of the best, there should be little kitten classes there. Only the strongest. I know eu had 7 mesmers in top 10 a week and a half ago, haven't bothered playing much lately. As for band-wagoning to the strongest class. That's not really enjoyable for most players. I'm not saying you can't do well on other classes, I'm saying you have to severely outplay your opponents in order to win. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiritodatrth.1548 Posted May 15, 2018 Share Posted May 15, 2018 I imagine all mesmers playing meantime listening to the song- "u can't catch me, boom boom yeah u can't catch me" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mortrialus.3062 Posted May 15, 2018 Share Posted May 15, 2018 > @"Ithilwen.1529" said: > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > @"Ithilwen.1529" said: > > > > @"Hoodie.1045" said: > > > > > @"whoknocks.4935" said: > > > > > In both pvp and wvw they are just a plague, scourge in both gamemodes, mesmer mainly in pvp, but also abused by roamer who never wanna die (saw one mirage able to troll 5 people spamming clones and in a matter of seconds he was already at 3000 range). > > > > > > > > > > Scourge shades should pulse once only. > > > > > > > > > > In a 1vs1 scenario in wvw you encounter a scourge, he place a shade under your feets, you dodge it out, he place another and dodge that too, he place another one that cripple, chills, torment and fear you, you cleanse, he has already on cd another shade to place under your feet again and you are out of cd and die by 15 condis. Talking of cheesy trailblazer scourges which absorb more damage than a spellbreaker. > > > > > > > > > > Make the shade an ability which pulses once and vanish. So they actually have to think when you place it and when to use the Fskills instead of pressing them random and win regardless. > > > > > > > > > > Mesmer: set a clone cap at 5. I wanted at 3, but maybe it's too exagerated. > > > > > think when you place it and when to use the Fskills instead of pressing them random and win regardless. > > > > > > > > Scourge is slowly getting nerfed. I wish they nerfed Scourge by making shade skills have cast time rather than being instant cast and buffed core and Reaper sooner. One day, Scourge will get nerfed and core and Reaper will be viable once again. > > > > > > > > The mesmer is ArenaNets' most favorite profession, so don't expect them to nerf the profession hard any time. You can tell from the balance patches that they are not being as harsh towards the mesmer as the other professions. > > > > > > This is just deeply inaccurate.. perhaps you don't remember the **YEARS** we went as "trash tier" after the big glamour nerf when you couldn't get on a team as a Mesmer... or the cuts (in less than 45 minutes,) that destroyed chronomancer? If anything ANET has been especially harsh at making sure Mesmer doesn't have an edge... > > > > > > Our signature move, Moa.. now an engi trick.. it's nerfed so hard it's unusable for Mesmer... Alacrity now given to revenant...Elusive mind nerfed, Prismatic understanding heavily nerfed, sword nerfed in multiple ways... clone death completely removed from the game... pistol nerfed...Mobility and juking specifically cut down for elevation change. No ANET has been, if anything, over cautious to make sure Mesmer can't get ahead. > > > > > > TLDR It's time to learn to play. > > > > The only time Chrono was not a top tier build was when Mirage first came out and power crept it out of the meta until the phantasm update. That was like 4 months. And Chronobunker's original nerfing came because the original incarnation of chronomancer literally, literally, was an unkillable monster that would stall out entire games with zero deaths with games running out of time with point scores in the single digits. It literally broke the game. You're the only person I've ever heard complain about the nerfing to Heart of Thorn Chronobunker. > > > > I wouldn't call Moa our signature move. That would be portal, which is still one of a kind. But Elixer X, an elite that let's them use weaker versions of other classes' elites, is such a weird thing to be upset over. Warriors, elementatists, and necros aren't upset about Elixer X or feel like it's a huge affront to their class integrity. > > > > Just because something was nerfed doesn't mean therefore it is now bad. In fact everything you mentioned is still top tier. Sword was nerfed? Sword is the best weapon for mesmer in both PvE and PvP still. It's so good it gets used in condition damage builds despite it not being a condi weapon in any way. I don't know what nerf you're specifically talking about, but if it's still one of the best weapon sets in the game after getting nerfed it probably deserved to get nerfed. Mobility is top tier with the Mirage specialization only surpassed by thieves. > > > > The nerf to chronobunker was at the behest of the "pro league." *It had been publicly stated that mid season nerfs would not happen.* > > Yes, moa was the signature move of Mesmer. Sadly it's been nerfed to the point that it's not usable in PvP. Now if you see it used, it's on Engi. > > Sword leap was heavily nerfed , a major defensive downgrade. In addition distortion ( sword 2) has been repeatedly cut back and it's defense value gutted. > > **It comes down to this; I can't trust that something I learn or use is going to stay available. The chorus of nerf calls usually drowns a Mesmer skill if it is effective. Soon we'll be just another sword swinging class.** > **Every single game in the online era has balance updates and changes. If a game doesn't then that game is dead and irrelevant** That balance updates happen, that skill changes and shifts in the meta happen is a _good thing_. Even Chess, considered the most balanced, rigid, archetypal player vs player game in existence always has house rules for world tournaments and championships. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zaraki.5784 Posted May 15, 2018 Share Posted May 15, 2018 NEVER! Muhahahahahahahahahah. *evil anet laugh* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dralor.3701 Posted May 15, 2018 Share Posted May 15, 2018 The level of denial from some is just unbelievable. Most players can see what is broken and if they don’t fix it the more damage they do to their game. I mainly play necro (obv scourge now) and it is probably one of the most brainless and over powered specs they have put in the game to date. Mesmer is more of an issue 1v1 than in the team setting but obviously doing too well and also not fun to play against. The level of white knighting for one’s class and slow game balance makes this incredibly frustrating... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oneira.7691 Posted May 16, 2018 Share Posted May 16, 2018 > @"whoknocks.4935" said: > > @"Oneira.7691" said: > > The endless whining about mesmers and scourges (it used to be about thieves and guardian bunker builds) is why I don't play pvp anymore. > > > > I've been killed by scourges more times than I have hours in my life, but I don't come on here screaming for them to be nerfed. I just try to figure out how to deal with them better. If they happen to be 1st tier, well then someone's going to be. If you nerf mesmer and scourge into the ground, then some other class(es) is going to dominate and the calls for nerfs will go on and won. > > Spellbreaker is easy to play low risk and high reward spec as well, but i have no problems fighting one, and you still have many counterplay to it. > > Mesmer and scourge (especially with fb) have zero counterplay and it's unfun having constantly 10 condis after you cleanse them 3 times. > > If everybody shut up it's obvious they won't do anything about it, but making posts and posts and post i hope finally they will listen and do something about it. To say that mesmers and scourges have zero counterplay is too much exaggeration. Yes, I understand your point that they are devilish to play against but there are counters. They may not be 100% effective but they are there. I'm far better at dealing with scourges than I used to be. Pointing out imbalances is one thing, but a constant barrage of Nerf Mesmers and Scourges! posts is actually counterproductive, because it drowns out the more reasonable attempts at suggesting balancing changes, many of whom are made by mesmers or scourges who know their class inside and out and have a better idea of what needs to be changed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whoknocks.4935 Posted May 16, 2018 Author Share Posted May 16, 2018 > @"Oneira.7691" said: > > @"whoknocks.4935" said: > > > @"Oneira.7691" said: > > > The endless whining about mesmers and scourges (it used to be about thieves and guardian bunker builds) is why I don't play pvp anymore. > > > > > > I've been killed by scourges more times than I have hours in my life, but I don't come on here screaming for them to be nerfed. I just try to figure out how to deal with them better. If they happen to be 1st tier, well then someone's going to be. If you nerf mesmer and scourge into the ground, then some other class(es) is going to dominate and the calls for nerfs will go on and won. > > > > Spellbreaker is easy to play low risk and high reward spec as well, but i have no problems fighting one, and you still have many counterplay to it. > > > > Mesmer and scourge (especially with fb) have zero counterplay and it's unfun having constantly 10 condis after you cleanse them 3 times. > > > > If everybody shut up it's obvious they won't do anything about it, but making posts and posts and post i hope finally they will listen and do something about it. > > To say that mesmers and scourges have zero counterplay is too much exaggeration. Yes, I understand your point that they are devilish to play against but there are counters. They may not be 100% effective but they are there. I'm far better at dealing with scourges than I used to be. > > Pointing out imbalances is one thing, but a constant barrage of Nerf Mesmers and Scourges! posts is actually counterproductive, because it drowns out the more reasonable attempts at suggesting balancing changes, many of whom are made by mesmers or scourges who know their class inside and out and have a better idea of what needs to be changed. Problems is only few mesmers ans scourge mains have the honesty to say their main is completely broken, low risk and high reward to play. They will just call you bad, l2p issue, learn to dodge that, learn to kite etc. They just don't want their main nerfed because right now with no so much effort they are climbing ranks. They are probably good players and all, but they are carried by the profession 80% and by personal skill 20%. Many many platinum scourges past 2 seasons I played with weren't even silver level in my opinion, but because decent they climbed to high plat... that's completely not fair. And to the people says reroll to scourge or mesmer then. Why? Why I should play a profession that i dont enjoy just because it's broken? Played scourge and after 10 minutes of brainless spamming and people offending me because i killed them (they were right btw) i just stopped to play a profession which makes you worse at the game. As a scourge you dont care if the enemy has stability, because you corrupt it into fear, you dont care if the enemy dodge something, you can spam other 5 skills impossible to dodge, you don't care if the enemy has aegis coz you use staff unblockable marks. In other profession you usually wait till the stability of your enemy ends to apply your ccs and your combos. Scourge just corrupt it... who cares if you have stability... i pass through anyway. Usually i pop my stability to usually survice a cc combo burst or for safe healing. Spellbreaker can remove your stability as well but he has pretty telegraphic skills, plus he is not a 1200 range from you. Scourge corrupt your stability safe from 1200 range interrupt your heal plus apply 15 condis... it's just brainless and unfun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abazigal.3679 Posted May 16, 2018 Share Posted May 16, 2018 > @"Oneira.7691" said: > > @"whoknocks.4935" said: > > > @"Oneira.7691" said: > > > The endless whining about mesmers and scourges (it used to be about thieves and guardian bunker builds) is why I don't play pvp anymore. > > > > > > I've been killed by scourges more times than I have hours in my life, but I don't come on here screaming for them to be nerfed. I just try to figure out how to deal with them better. If they happen to be 1st tier, well then someone's going to be. If you nerf mesmer and scourge into the ground, then some other class(es) is going to dominate and the calls for nerfs will go on and won. > > > > Spellbreaker is easy to play low risk and high reward spec as well, but i have no problems fighting one, and you still have many counterplay to it. > > > > Mesmer and scourge (especially with fb) have zero counterplay and it's unfun having constantly 10 condis after you cleanse them 3 times. > > > > If everybody shut up it's obvious they won't do anything about it, but making posts and posts and post i hope finally they will listen and do something about it. > > To say that mesmers and scourges have zero counterplay is too much exaggeration. Yes, I understand your point that they are devilish to play against but there are counters. They may not be 100% effective but they are there. I'm far better at dealing with scourges than I used to be. > > Pointing out imbalances is one thing, but a constant barrage of Nerf Mesmers and Scourges! posts is actually counterproductive, because it drowns out the more reasonable attempts at suggesting balancing changes, many of whom are made by mesmers or scourges who know their class inside and out and have a better idea of what needs to be changed. Fact is, even with some counters ( longbow ranger as example), i'm not going to kill the scourge in 5 seconds, and i'm most likely going to have to fight off point. Basically, i'm bringing my team 5 points while he brought probably 5 too while he capped the point. He's going to rez up when i finish recapping the point. Not a huge game impact actually... Pretty much why the counter to those builds is to stay mobile and keep going past scourges on 1v1 situations, but this isn't common in solo queue.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigpapasmurf.5623 Posted May 16, 2018 Share Posted May 16, 2018 Looking at the arguments, this could be one of the definitions of l2p. Yes scourge is unbalanced. I find to win, you need to play the ranged game. When you go melee then odds are against you. Mesmer is a matter of learning how to tell the real mesmer from the fakes, as well as learning when to dodge/evade/block. Out of the 2, scourge is def more unbalanced. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rank eleven monk.9502 Posted May 16, 2018 Share Posted May 16, 2018 > @"Abazigal.3679" said: > Fact is, even with some counters ( longbow ranger as example), i'm not going to kill the scourge in 5 seconds, and i'm most likely going to have to fight off point. So the definition of a 'balanced' class for you is that you should be able to kill it in 5 seconds and contest him in every case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oneira.7691 Posted May 17, 2018 Share Posted May 17, 2018 > @"Bigpapasmurf.5623" said: > Looking at the arguments, this could be one of the definitions of l2p. Yes scourge is unbalanced. I find to win, you need to play the ranged game. When you go melee then odds are against you. > > Mesmer is a matter of learning how to tell the real mesmer from the fakes, as well as learning when to dodge/evade/block. Out of the 2, scourge is def more unbalanced. That's exactly it. With Scourges you have to stay mobile. That's what I've learned. When you see the red circles plop down get the hell out of there. It's not a foolproof counter but it's better than nothing. When your mobility skills are on cool down you're in trouble, so I try to always make sure I have 1 mobility skill ready. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whoknocks.4935 Posted May 17, 2018 Author Share Posted May 17, 2018 > @"Oneira.7691" said: > > @"Bigpapasmurf.5623" said: > > Looking at the arguments, this could be one of the definitions of l2p. Yes scourge is unbalanced. I find to win, you need to play the ranged game. When you go melee then odds are against you. > > > > Mesmer is a matter of learning how to tell the real mesmer from the fakes, as well as learning when to dodge/evade/block. Out of the 2, scourge is def more unbalanced. > > That's exactly it. With Scourges you have to stay mobile. That's what I've learned. When you see the red circles plop down get the hell out of there. It's not a foolproof counter but it's better than nothing. When your mobility skills are on cool down you're in trouble, so I try to always make sure I have 1 mobility skill ready. Many problems comes from the fact that scourge count as a shade himself. Your condi cleanse are enough and if you try to escape they just portal inside your hitbox and spam all skills and you are dead. Plus they just interrupt any healing because stability becomes fear and you are done. They should remove scourge as a shade himself, he is no longer a shade, and the placed shades only pulse once and not 10 times giving you 10 different condis all with 10 plus stacks. This way you can dodge the shade and save yourself, you can go melee without being condi bombed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sigmoid.7082 Posted May 17, 2018 Share Posted May 17, 2018 The only real problem with scourge is sand savant. Once that is changed to not increase the radius you will see a massive reduction in complaints/its power level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abazigal.3679 Posted May 17, 2018 Share Posted May 17, 2018 > @"rank eleven monk.9502" said: > > @"Abazigal.3679" said: > > Fact is, even with some counters ( longbow ranger as example), i'm not going to kill the scourge in 5 seconds, and i'm most likely going to have to fight off point. > So the definition of a 'balanced' class for you is that you should be able to kill it in 5 seconds and contest him in every case. That's what a scourge can do with most melee builds fighting on point though. More likely gave the definition of " a counter ". I exagerated a bit the example just to show counters to scourge aren't so efficient counters, and the best way to deal with scourges, regarding average solo queue situations, is to ignore them actually.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mortrialus.3062 Posted May 17, 2018 Share Posted May 17, 2018 > @"whoknocks.4935" said: > > @"Oneira.7691" said: > > > @"Bigpapasmurf.5623" said: > > > Looking at the arguments, this could be one of the definitions of l2p. Yes scourge is unbalanced. I find to win, you need to play the ranged game. When you go melee then odds are against you. > > > > > > Mesmer is a matter of learning how to tell the real mesmer from the fakes, as well as learning when to dodge/evade/block. Out of the 2, scourge is def more unbalanced. > > > > That's exactly it. With Scourges you have to stay mobile. That's what I've learned. When you see the red circles plop down get the hell out of there. It's not a foolproof counter but it's better than nothing. When your mobility skills are on cool down you're in trouble, so I try to always make sure I have 1 mobility skill ready. > > Many problems comes from the fact that scourge count as a shade himself. > > Your condi cleanse are enough and if you try to escape they just portal inside your hitbox and spam all skills and you are dead. Plus they just interrupt any healing because stability becomes fear and you are done. > > They should remove scourge as a shade himself, he is no longer a shade, and the placed shades only pulse once and not 10 times giving you 10 different condis all with 10 plus stacks. This way you can dodge the shade and save yourself, you can go melee without being condi bombed. Scourge is slow as as molasses in January. The one thing they could possibly be using to blink is Sandswell and unlike most scourge abilities actually has a really obvious animation to it and is rarely run. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elva.6372 Posted May 17, 2018 Share Posted May 17, 2018 > @"Felipe.1807" said: > > oh jesus man, clones, phantasm, ilusions, kitten pink piece of kitten, call whatever you want, you know what he is talking about...mesmer can spam so much AI that it can make even the character model to not render correctly and make the mesmer player literally invisible, this is a problem. Yeah, it's almost like the Mesmer is trying to confuse and befuddle his assailant, weird, huh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vagrant.7206 Posted May 17, 2018 Share Posted May 17, 2018 > @"Ithilwen.1529" said: > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > @"Ithilwen.1529" said: > > > > @"Hoodie.1045" said: > > > > > @"whoknocks.4935" said: > > > > > In both pvp and wvw they are just a plague, scourge in both gamemodes, mesmer mainly in pvp, but also abused by roamer who never wanna die (saw one mirage able to troll 5 people spamming clones and in a matter of seconds he was already at 3000 range). > > > > > > > > > > Scourge shades should pulse once only. > > > > > > > > > > In a 1vs1 scenario in wvw you encounter a scourge, he place a shade under your feets, you dodge it out, he place another and dodge that too, he place another one that cripple, chills, torment and fear you, you cleanse, he has already on cd another shade to place under your feet again and you are out of cd and die by 15 condis. Talking of cheesy trailblazer scourges which absorb more damage than a spellbreaker. > > > > > > > > > > Make the shade an ability which pulses once and vanish. So they actually have to think when you place it and when to use the Fskills instead of pressing them random and win regardless. > > > > > > > > > > Mesmer: set a clone cap at 5. I wanted at 3, but maybe it's too exagerated. > > > > > think when you place it and when to use the Fskills instead of pressing them random and win regardless. > > > > > > > > Scourge is slowly getting nerfed. I wish they nerfed Scourge by making shade skills have cast time rather than being instant cast and buffed core and Reaper sooner. One day, Scourge will get nerfed and core and Reaper will be viable once again. > > > > > > > > The mesmer is ArenaNets' most favorite profession, so don't expect them to nerf the profession hard any time. You can tell from the balance patches that they are not being as harsh towards the mesmer as the other professions. > > > > > > This is just deeply inaccurate.. perhaps you don't remember the **YEARS** we went as "trash tier" after the big glamour nerf when you couldn't get on a team as a Mesmer... or the cuts (in less than 45 minutes,) that destroyed chronomancer? If anything ANET has been especially harsh at making sure Mesmer doesn't have an edge... > > > > > > Our signature move, Moa.. now an engi trick.. it's nerfed so hard it's unusable for Mesmer... Alacrity now given to revenant...Elusive mind nerfed, Prismatic understanding heavily nerfed, sword nerfed in multiple ways... clone death completely removed from the game... pistol nerfed...Mobility and juking specifically cut down for elevation change. No ANET has been, if anything, over cautious to make sure Mesmer can't get ahead. > > > > > > TLDR It's time to learn to play. > > > > The only time Chrono was not a top tier build was when Mirage first came out and power crept it out of the meta until the phantasm update. That was like 4 months. And Chronobunker's original nerfing came because the original incarnation of chronomancer literally, literally, was an unkillable monster that would stall out entire games with zero deaths with games running out of time with point scores in the single digits. It literally broke the game. You're the only person I've ever heard complain about the nerfing to Heart of Thorn Chronobunker. > > > > I wouldn't call Moa our signature move. That would be portal, which is still one of a kind. But Elixer X, an elite that let's them use weaker versions of other classes' elites, is such a weird thing to be upset over. Warriors, elementatists, and necros aren't upset about Elixer X or feel like it's a huge affront to their class integrity. > > > > Just because something was nerfed doesn't mean therefore it is now bad. In fact everything you mentioned is still top tier. Sword was nerfed? Sword is the best weapon for mesmer in both PvE and PvP still. It's so good it gets used in condition damage builds despite it not being a condi weapon in any way. I don't know what nerf you're specifically talking about, but if it's still one of the best weapon sets in the game after getting nerfed it probably deserved to get nerfed. Mobility is top tier with the Mirage specialization only surpassed by thieves. > > > > The nerf to chronobunker was at the behest of the "pro league." *It had been publicly stated that mid season nerfs would not happen.* > > Yes, moa was the signature move of Mesmer. Sadly it's been nerfed to the point that it's not usable in PvP. Now if you see it used, it's on Engi. > > Sword leap was heavily nerfed , a major defensive downgrade. In addition distortion ( sword 2) has been repeatedly cut back and it's defense value gutted. > > **It comes down to this; I can't trust that something I learn or use is going to stay available. The chorus of nerf calls usually drowns a Mesmer skill if it is effective. Soon we'll be just another sword swinging class.** > You complain about engineer stealing your "signature" skill (even though you still have portal, which is way more defining than Moa ever was, and Throw Elixir X is a much weaker version of Moa). What about engineer "signature" skills? * Turrets? Nerfed years ago, almost entirely pointless except for HT (occasionally Thumper). Most other classes do AI better. * Kits? Powercreeped out of most metas, and other classes have conjures/weapon swaps that are still relevant. * Elixirs? Hah! They killed elixir builds a few months ago, and most classes have signets anyway. * Nothing about gadgets is particularly unique other than maybe animations. You complain about "signature" skills being stolen when several classes don't even have a "signature" set of skills. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ithilwen.1529 Posted May 17, 2018 Share Posted May 17, 2018 > @"Vagrant.7206" said: > > @"Ithilwen.1529" said: > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > @"Ithilwen.1529" said: > > > > > @"Hoodie.1045" said: > > > > > > @"whoknocks.4935" said: > > > > > > In both pvp and wvw they are just a plague, scourge in both gamemodes, mesmer mainly in pvp, but also abused by roamer who never wanna die (saw one mirage able to troll 5 people spamming clones and in a matter of seconds he was already at 3000 range). > > > > > > > > > > > > Scourge shades should pulse once only. > > > > > > > > > > > > In a 1vs1 scenario in wvw you encounter a scourge, he place a shade under your feets, you dodge it out, he place another and dodge that too, he place another one that cripple, chills, torment and fear you, you cleanse, he has already on cd another shade to place under your feet again and you are out of cd and die by 15 condis. Talking of cheesy trailblazer scourges which absorb more damage than a spellbreaker. > > > > > > > > > > > > Make the shade an ability which pulses once and vanish. So they actually have to think when you place it and when to use the Fskills instead of pressing them random and win regardless. > > > > > > > > > > > > Mesmer: set a clone cap at 5. I wanted at 3, but maybe it's too exagerated. > > > > > > think when you place it and when to use the Fskills instead of pressing them random and win regardless. > > > > > > > > > > Scourge is slowly getting nerfed. I wish they nerfed Scourge by making shade skills have cast time rather than being instant cast and buffed core and Reaper sooner. One day, Scourge will get nerfed and core and Reaper will be viable once again. > > > > > > > > > > The mesmer is ArenaNets' most favorite profession, so don't expect them to nerf the profession hard any time. You can tell from the balance patches that they are not being as harsh towards the mesmer as the other professions. > > > > > > > > This is just deeply inaccurate.. perhaps you don't remember the **YEARS** we went as "trash tier" after the big glamour nerf when you couldn't get on a team as a Mesmer... or the cuts (in less than 45 minutes,) that destroyed chronomancer? If anything ANET has been especially harsh at making sure Mesmer doesn't have an edge... > > > > > > > > Our signature move, Moa.. now an engi trick.. it's nerfed so hard it's unusable for Mesmer... Alacrity now given to revenant...Elusive mind nerfed, Prismatic understanding heavily nerfed, sword nerfed in multiple ways... clone death completely removed from the game... pistol nerfed...Mobility and juking specifically cut down for elevation change. No ANET has been, if anything, over cautious to make sure Mesmer can't get ahead. > > > > > > > > TLDR It's time to learn to play. > > > > > > The only time Chrono was not a top tier build was when Mirage first came out and power crept it out of the meta until the phantasm update. That was like 4 months. And Chronobunker's original nerfing came because the original incarnation of chronomancer literally, literally, was an unkillable monster that would stall out entire games with zero deaths with games running out of time with point scores in the single digits. It literally broke the game. You're the only person I've ever heard complain about the nerfing to Heart of Thorn Chronobunker. > > > > > > I wouldn't call Moa our signature move. That would be portal, which is still one of a kind. But Elixer X, an elite that let's them use weaker versions of other classes' elites, is such a weird thing to be upset over. Warriors, elementatists, and necros aren't upset about Elixer X or feel like it's a huge affront to their class integrity. > > > > > > Just because something was nerfed doesn't mean therefore it is now bad. In fact everything you mentioned is still top tier. Sword was nerfed? Sword is the best weapon for mesmer in both PvE and PvP still. It's so good it gets used in condition damage builds despite it not being a condi weapon in any way. I don't know what nerf you're specifically talking about, but if it's still one of the best weapon sets in the game after getting nerfed it probably deserved to get nerfed. Mobility is top tier with the Mirage specialization only surpassed by thieves. > > > > > > > The nerf to chronobunker was at the behest of the "pro league." *It had been publicly stated that mid season nerfs would not happen.* > > > > Yes, moa was the signature move of Mesmer. Sadly it's been nerfed to the point that it's not usable in PvP. Now if you see it used, it's on Engi. > > > > Sword leap was heavily nerfed , a major defensive downgrade. In addition distortion ( sword 2) has been repeatedly cut back and it's defense value gutted. > > > > **It comes down to this; I can't trust that something I learn or use is going to stay available. The chorus of nerf calls usually drowns a Mesmer skill if it is effective. Soon we'll be just another sword swinging class.** > > > > You complain about engineer stealing your "signature" skill (even though you still have portal, which is way more defining than Moa ever was, and Throw Elixir X is a much weaker version of Moa). What about engineer "signature" skills? > > * Turrets? Nerfed years ago, almost entirely pointless except for HT (occasionally Thumper). Most other classes do AI better. > * Kits? Powercreeped out of most metas, and other classes have conjures/weapon swaps that are still relevant. > * Elixirs? Hah! They killed elixir builds a few months ago, and most classes have signets anyway. > * Nothing about gadgets is particularly unique other than maybe animations. > > You complain about "signature" skills being stolen when several classes don't even have a "signature" set of skills. Then we agree.. insofar as the policy of "balancing" by making classes essentially the same is not a good idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whoknocks.4935 Posted May 17, 2018 Author Share Posted May 17, 2018 > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > @"whoknocks.4935" said: > > > @"Oneira.7691" said: > > > > @"Bigpapasmurf.5623" said: > > > > Looking at the arguments, this could be one of the definitions of l2p. Yes scourge is unbalanced. I find to win, you need to play the ranged game. When you go melee then odds are against you. > > > > > > > > Mesmer is a matter of learning how to tell the real mesmer from the fakes, as well as learning when to dodge/evade/block. Out of the 2, scourge is def more unbalanced. > > > > > > That's exactly it. With Scourges you have to stay mobile. That's what I've learned. When you see the red circles plop down get the hell out of there. It's not a foolproof counter but it's better than nothing. When your mobility skills are on cool down you're in trouble, so I try to always make sure I have 1 mobility skill ready. > > > > Many problems comes from the fact that scourge count as a shade himself. > > > > Your condi cleanse are enough and if you try to escape they just portal inside your hitbox and spam all skills and you are dead. Plus they just interrupt any healing because stability becomes fear and you are done. > > > > They should remove scourge as a shade himself, he is no longer a shade, and the placed shades only pulse once and not 10 times giving you 10 different condis all with 10 plus stacks. This way you can dodge the shade and save yourself, you can go melee without being condi bombed. > > Scourge is slow as as molasses in January. The one thing they could possibly be using to blink is Sandswell and unlike most scourge abilities actually has a really obvious animation to it and is rarely run. Have you ever faced a vitality healing power condi scourge in wvw? Pretty much unkillable in 1vs1 if you play a power build. So what if have no mobility? He can place the shades under your feets anyway and teleport inside you and give you 10 condi while corrupting your stab and fearing you. If you get caught by a scourge like that you can't escape, plus you are perma chilled, crippled, immob, they will get you even with zero mobility like you say. They are just a trash build unfun to play against. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mortrialus.3062 Posted May 17, 2018 Share Posted May 17, 2018 > @"whoknocks.4935" said: > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > @"whoknocks.4935" said: > > > > @"Oneira.7691" said: > > > > > @"Bigpapasmurf.5623" said: > > > > > Looking at the arguments, this could be one of the definitions of l2p. Yes scourge is unbalanced. I find to win, you need to play the ranged game. When you go melee then odds are against you. > > > > > > > > > > Mesmer is a matter of learning how to tell the real mesmer from the fakes, as well as learning when to dodge/evade/block. Out of the 2, scourge is def more unbalanced. > > > > > > > > That's exactly it. With Scourges you have to stay mobile. That's what I've learned. When you see the red circles plop down get the hell out of there. It's not a foolproof counter but it's better than nothing. When your mobility skills are on cool down you're in trouble, so I try to always make sure I have 1 mobility skill ready. > > > > > > Many problems comes from the fact that scourge count as a shade himself. > > > > > > Your condi cleanse are enough and if you try to escape they just portal inside your hitbox and spam all skills and you are dead. Plus they just interrupt any healing because stability becomes fear and you are done. > > > > > > They should remove scourge as a shade himself, he is no longer a shade, and the placed shades only pulse once and not 10 times giving you 10 different condis all with 10 plus stacks. This way you can dodge the shade and save yourself, you can go melee without being condi bombed. > > > > Scourge is slow as as molasses in January. The one thing they could possibly be using to blink is Sandswell and unlike most scourge abilities actually has a really obvious animation to it and is rarely run. > > Have you ever faced a vitality healing power condi scourge in wvw? Pretty much unkillable in 1vs1 if you play a power build. So what if have no mobility? He can place the shades under your feets anyway and teleport inside you and give you 10 condi while corrupting your stab and fearing you. If you get caught by a scourge like that you can't escape, plus you are perma chilled, crippled, immob, they will get you even with zero mobility like you say. They are just a trash build unfun to play against. I thought this was the SPvP forum though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whoknocks.4935 Posted May 17, 2018 Author Share Posted May 17, 2018 > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > @"whoknocks.4935" said: > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > @"whoknocks.4935" said: > > > > > @"Oneira.7691" said: > > > > > > @"Bigpapasmurf.5623" said: > > > > > > Looking at the arguments, this could be one of the definitions of l2p. Yes scourge is unbalanced. I find to win, you need to play the ranged game. When you go melee then odds are against you. > > > > > > > > > > > > Mesmer is a matter of learning how to tell the real mesmer from the fakes, as well as learning when to dodge/evade/block. Out of the 2, scourge is def more unbalanced. > > > > > > > > > > That's exactly it. With Scourges you have to stay mobile. That's what I've learned. When you see the red circles plop down get the hell out of there. It's not a foolproof counter but it's better than nothing. When your mobility skills are on cool down you're in trouble, so I try to always make sure I have 1 mobility skill ready. > > > > > > > > Many problems comes from the fact that scourge count as a shade himself. > > > > > > > > Your condi cleanse are enough and if you try to escape they just portal inside your hitbox and spam all skills and you are dead. Plus they just interrupt any healing because stability becomes fear and you are done. > > > > > > > > They should remove scourge as a shade himself, he is no longer a shade, and the placed shades only pulse once and not 10 times giving you 10 different condis all with 10 plus stacks. This way you can dodge the shade and save yourself, you can go melee without being condi bombed. > > > > > > Scourge is slow as as molasses in January. The one thing they could possibly be using to blink is Sandswell and unlike most scourge abilities actually has a really obvious animation to it and is rarely run. > > > > Have you ever faced a vitality healing power condi scourge in wvw? Pretty much unkillable in 1vs1 if you play a power build. So what if have no mobility? He can place the shades under your feets anyway and teleport inside you and give you 10 condi while corrupting your stab and fearing you. If you get caught by a scourge like that you can't escape, plus you are perma chilled, crippled, immob, they will get you even with zero mobility like you say. They are just a trash build unfun to play against. > > I thought this was the SPvP forum though. They are a plague in both gamemodes. On spvp because the shades cover all the cap and in wvw for the stupid buids they can abuse. Thanks for your observation that this is spvp section genius. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dralor.3701 Posted May 17, 2018 Share Posted May 17, 2018 Scourge has counters, it’s just poorly designed for this game mode. 1v1 it’s garbage unless you don’t know what you’re doing, I’m sorry not trying to be mean but seriously if you can’t 1v1 a scourge it means you are playing incorrectly. Does scourge need nerfs? Absolutely. Is it on the same tier as Mesmer? Not even close. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mortrialus.3062 Posted May 17, 2018 Share Posted May 17, 2018 > @"Ithilwen.1529" said: > > @"Vagrant.7206" said: > > > @"Ithilwen.1529" said: > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > @"Ithilwen.1529" said: > > > > > > @"Hoodie.1045" said: > > > > > > > @"whoknocks.4935" said: > > > > > > > In both pvp and wvw they are just a plague, scourge in both gamemodes, mesmer mainly in pvp, but also abused by roamer who never wanna die (saw one mirage able to troll 5 people spamming clones and in a matter of seconds he was already at 3000 range). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Scourge shades should pulse once only. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In a 1vs1 scenario in wvw you encounter a scourge, he place a shade under your feets, you dodge it out, he place another and dodge that too, he place another one that cripple, chills, torment and fear you, you cleanse, he has already on cd another shade to place under your feet again and you are out of cd and die by 15 condis. Talking of cheesy trailblazer scourges which absorb more damage than a spellbreaker. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Make the shade an ability which pulses once and vanish. So they actually have to think when you place it and when to use the Fskills instead of pressing them random and win regardless. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mesmer: set a clone cap at 5. I wanted at 3, but maybe it's too exagerated. > > > > > > > think when you place it and when to use the Fskills instead of pressing them random and win regardless. > > > > > > > > > > > > Scourge is slowly getting nerfed. I wish they nerfed Scourge by making shade skills have cast time rather than being instant cast and buffed core and Reaper sooner. One day, Scourge will get nerfed and core and Reaper will be viable once again. > > > > > > > > > > > > The mesmer is ArenaNets' most favorite profession, so don't expect them to nerf the profession hard any time. You can tell from the balance patches that they are not being as harsh towards the mesmer as the other professions. > > > > > > > > > > This is just deeply inaccurate.. perhaps you don't remember the **YEARS** we went as "trash tier" after the big glamour nerf when you couldn't get on a team as a Mesmer... or the cuts (in less than 45 minutes,) that destroyed chronomancer? If anything ANET has been especially harsh at making sure Mesmer doesn't have an edge... > > > > > > > > > > Our signature move, Moa.. now an engi trick.. it's nerfed so hard it's unusable for Mesmer... Alacrity now given to revenant...Elusive mind nerfed, Prismatic understanding heavily nerfed, sword nerfed in multiple ways... clone death completely removed from the game... pistol nerfed...Mobility and juking specifically cut down for elevation change. No ANET has been, if anything, over cautious to make sure Mesmer can't get ahead. > > > > > > > > > > TLDR It's time to learn to play. > > > > > > > > The only time Chrono was not a top tier build was when Mirage first came out and power crept it out of the meta until the phantasm update. That was like 4 months. And Chronobunker's original nerfing came because the original incarnation of chronomancer literally, literally, was an unkillable monster that would stall out entire games with zero deaths with games running out of time with point scores in the single digits. It literally broke the game. You're the only person I've ever heard complain about the nerfing to Heart of Thorn Chronobunker. > > > > > > > > I wouldn't call Moa our signature move. That would be portal, which is still one of a kind. But Elixer X, an elite that let's them use weaker versions of other classes' elites, is such a weird thing to be upset over. Warriors, elementatists, and necros aren't upset about Elixer X or feel like it's a huge affront to their class integrity. > > > > > > > > Just because something was nerfed doesn't mean therefore it is now bad. In fact everything you mentioned is still top tier. Sword was nerfed? Sword is the best weapon for mesmer in both PvE and PvP still. It's so good it gets used in condition damage builds despite it not being a condi weapon in any way. I don't know what nerf you're specifically talking about, but if it's still one of the best weapon sets in the game after getting nerfed it probably deserved to get nerfed. Mobility is top tier with the Mirage specialization only surpassed by thieves. > > > > > > > > > > The nerf to chronobunker was at the behest of the "pro league." *It had been publicly stated that mid season nerfs would not happen.* > > > > > > Yes, moa was the signature move of Mesmer. Sadly it's been nerfed to the point that it's not usable in PvP. Now if you see it used, it's on Engi. > > > > > > Sword leap was heavily nerfed , a major defensive downgrade. In addition distortion ( sword 2) has been repeatedly cut back and it's defense value gutted. > > > > > > **It comes down to this; I can't trust that something I learn or use is going to stay available. The chorus of nerf calls usually drowns a Mesmer skill if it is effective. Soon we'll be just another sword swinging class.** > > > > > > > You complain about engineer stealing your "signature" skill (even though you still have portal, which is way more defining than Moa ever was, and Throw Elixir X is a much weaker version of Moa). What about engineer "signature" skills? > > > > * Turrets? Nerfed years ago, almost entirely pointless except for HT (occasionally Thumper). Most other classes do AI better. > > * Kits? Powercreeped out of most metas, and other classes have conjures/weapon swaps that are still relevant. > > * Elixirs? Hah! They killed elixir builds a few months ago, and most classes have signets anyway. > > * Nothing about gadgets is particularly unique other than maybe animations. > > > > You complain about "signature" skills being stolen when several classes don't even have a "signature" set of skills. > > Then we agree.. insofar as the policy of "balancing" by making classes essentially the same is not a good idea. I mean even right from the get go Mesmer phantasms literally copied other class's abilities. Phantasmal Swordsman was was Warrior's Savage Leap. Phantasmal Duelist is Thieve's Unload. Phantasmal Warden is Ranger's Whirling Defense. Phantasmal Berserker was Warrior's Whirlwind. Classes are just naturally going to bleed into each other a little bit. Especially in Guild Wars 2 where damage, support, and control are spread out far more evenly than other role playing games. As long as it's not too bad then it's not too bad. Even with Alacrity revenant and renegade feel _nothing_ like Chronomancer. In PvP Chronomancer really does fulfill the heavily defensive niche with one of the most survivable nonhealing focused specs in the game while keeping with the time manipulation niche with solid amounts of quickness and alacrity (Though not the permanent upkeep like PvE) and solid amounts of slow on enemies. Renegade has Alacrity, but it doesn't have any of that. Renegade plays and feels nothing like Chrono. Say what you will about the current balance, but at the very least it's really impressive how much flavor is preserved despite so much being shared just as a general philosphy. Thieves feel like thieves. Guardians feel like guardians (Especially firebrand), warriors feel like warriors, necros feel like necros, and mesmers feel like mesmers, rangers feel like rangers. And this holds true for most of the elite specializations as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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