Nerf Condi Daredevil

[Kiritodatrth.1548]

> @"Chaith.8256" said:

> > @"Kiritodatrth.1548" said:

> > > @"Chaith.8256" said:

> > > > @"Kiritodatrth.1548" said:

> > > > I got be honest... I have a really bad time against CONDI thief... I have no idea mechanically how to play against it... I fell that nothing I do works other than clean whatever they put on me...

> > > >

> > > > I can dodge steal, get caught by lotus, if I try to pressure in the area where S2 they just SB 5 away and keep pressuring me...

> > > >

> > > > I would really like ppl to help saying how to counter it.

> > > >

> > > > Particularly to me CONDI thief and Revs are my kryptonite. Other classes are OK... I still make a lot of mistakes and end up losing but I can realize where and when I made these mistakes...

> > > > A good Rev and a good CONDI thief I have no idea how to beat still...

> > > >

> > >

> > > All you must do is keep a rainy day full-clear, put it behind a glass panel that says: "Break glass in case of Condi thief." If your sustain is tied to your condi clear, like Healing Turret for example, that's not good, you're going to be vulnerable to be Insta killed.

> > >

> > > There's one tip which is to immediately reflect when thief jumps you. There is an 100% chance he will dodge twice to apply venom via the Lotus Training dodge - these are projectiles from the dodge which you can prevent him applying poison.

> > >

> > > Honestly all the tips aren't that helpful because any thief can catch you off guard with a 1500 unit engage that ignores terrain. Unless balance changes, even if you have dodges/invulns/teleports they are worthless because the only interaction is right when the Thief engages.

> > >

> > > But yes, to reiterate, try a lightning fast projectile hate skill or saving a full clear to the best of your ability.

> >

> > Hey Chait thanks a lot for answering...

> >

> > Sure I can do... Tried... You know what they do? Spam sword 3 and interrupt... Sooo frustrating...cause prolly you lost a dodge to the steal and prolly you will have to lose another for the LS (still venom up)... They can ezly bomb you with SB after that...

> >

> >

>

> If you survive or partially nullify the Steal + Dodge Dodge combo of champions, you've won (until it comes back up.)

>

> If the condi Thief starts using Sword3, or using Shortbow offensively, play as aggressively as possible, do anything to crush it and it'll crumble. If it stays on the aggressive without the steal one-shot gimmick it's because you let it.

>

> He doesn't have any interrupts outside of bassy venom and if you stand in choking gas.

 

Got it... Somehow nullify steal combo and go aggressive. I will try... The poison will be hard to handle tho I imagine, but I will try

 

[Elxdark.9702]

> @"Panda.3620" said:

> > @"Elxdark.9702" said:

> > nerf? remove it, braindead build carrying garbage players by pressing 2 buttons

>

> lol, they will just go vault spammer like you and press 3 buttons

 

I don't even use vault unless for cleave what are you talking about.

 

did I hurt your condi thief main feelings? the build is trash and for trash players that don't know how to play d/p or s/d I don't have any problem dealing with it personally but it's the most braindead build for thief because you literally only press 2 buttons and you can kill any player.

 

Btw I use all the skills from 1 to 5 when I play staff :)

[Bigpapasmurf.5623]

why sword? D/D is so much better.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

> @"Elxdark.9702" said:

> Btw I use all the skills from 1 to 5 when I play staff :)

 

_Lying through your teeth lmao_

 

Also every thief build is trash get it right. There's no build on thief that is not obnoxious to fight.~

[Elxdark.9702]

> @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> > @"Elxdark.9702" said:

> > Btw I use all the skills from 1 to 5 when I play staff :)

>

> _Lying through your teeth lmao_

>

> Also every thief build is trash get it right. There's no build on thief that is not obnoxious to fight.~

 

Watch my [vods](

"vods") then come and try to say the same thing again ;)

[Alatar.7364]

> @"Panda.3620" said:

 

> Everyone hates thief, even thieves.

 

_Amen_

[witcher.3197]

> @"Bigpapasmurf.5623" said:

> why sword? D/D is so much better.

 

How

[Paarthurnax.8931]

> @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> > @"Elxdark.9702" said:

> > Btw I use all the skills from 1 to 5 when I play staff :)

>

> _Lying through your teeth lmao_

>

> Also every thief build is trash get it right. There's no build on thief that is not obnoxious to fight.~

 

Someone who gets it!

 

Nerf p/p, then condi and then lets all go vault spammer like our friend on top 5 and get ready emotionally for the next nerf.

 

D/P is down, rifle too, what's next? make your bets.

[Nath Forge Tempete.1645]

well riffle was fine by me before they changed it ... now it's very cluncky

[Bigpapasmurf.5623]

> @"witcher.3197" said:

> > @"Bigpapasmurf.5623" said:

> > why sword? D/D is so much better.

>

> How

 

D/D skill 3. Evade and condi application. Cant tell ya when I tried condi thief how well this ability worked

[Nath Forge Tempete.1645]

> @"Bigpapasmurf.5623" said:

> > @"witcher.3197" said:

> > > @"Bigpapasmurf.5623" said:

> > > why sword? D/D is so much better.

> >

> > How

>

> D/D skill 3. Evade and condi application. Cant tell ya when I tried condi thief how well this ability worked

 

Immob on sword 2 is way more efficient at killing ppl than spamming that skill trust me. Especially when you dont see it coming and you don't lucky evade it .

[LazySummer.2568]

complaining about condi thieves when condi mirages are like 100x worse and actually good unlike condi thieves...

 

Just get some cleanses, wait a bit to cleanse all their poison stacks (instead of spamming attack buttons trying to retaliate against something that you cant hit because they are evading), and try anticipate their immobilize, and especially steal (which is where most of their bursts come from, and the shittier daredevil version don't even have 2 steals) and you're good.

 

Condi thieves are just bursty condi bombs that run out of gas very fast if you know how to sustain against them, whereas condi mirages can repeatedly bomb you with equivalent condis that these thieves do while having more evades/invuls and stealth (also blinds+interrupts which makes it even harder for you to hit them when they are already spamming evades).

[AegisFLCL.7623]

> @"Chaith.8256" said:

> > @"Panda.3620" said:

> >

> > The same applies to all burst thief builds, be either condi or power.

> >

> > Remove thief all together.

> > Everyone hates thief, even thieves.

>

> Hell no it doesn't. D/P, S/D Thief, you can't just steal+dodge+disengageto do maximum DPS. You have to **interact** using flanking strike, shadow shot, auto attacks, stealth attacks, cluster bombs.

>

> Thief hysteria makes it so you can't appreciate that.

>

>

 

This wouldn't be an issue if scourge and other mindless aoe on points weren't so punishing to power based melee classes. Condi builds are more reliable as a result of the braindead passives/active invulnerabilities that exist on almost every class. Thieves have been restricted to +1 and decapping forever now, one missed steal will make a condi thief even more useless than a power based variant. Not to mention a single mistake as any spec'd thief on a side point will render you dead in one CC chain from spellbreaker or holosmith.

 

What I think everyone should look at is any class being able to apply both confusion and torment. It amazes me that in an active game mode 4-5 classes can apply both these conditions, and in the instance you lack a clear you literally must stay in one position and watch yourself die.

 

It's inevitable that allowing toxic meta's to stay in place will breed even more ridiculous builds to cope with the meta.

[Arlowslol.1974]

> @"Chaith.8256" said:

> > @"Bigpapasmurf.5623" said:

> > 1 thing to note is that a properly build condi Daredevil has little mobility. In a fight, steal is their main mobility go to. If they swap to sb mid fight, you have 10 sec of weak condis to get em before they swap again.

> >

> > While some may find it not fun to fight against, its a l2f (learn to fight) issue.

>

> Not even close, it's just a simple binary scenario.

>

> - Predicted the steal and saved 4+ condition removal? You nullify the thief for 20s.

> - Caught without 4+ condition removal? You Insta-die.

>

> There's really no meaning at all in exploiting a Thief's lack of mobility.. Like, what are you even taking about, Sword return, Shortbow5, Shadowstep, these are 3 easy disengages.

>

> All you do is disengage on condi Thief except for the two seconds where you put venoms up and hit three buttons to burst someone from 1500 range through a wall, Sword2 -> Steal -> Dodge.

>

> It's fine that Thieves can engage and disengage like this.. **The problem is that to do max damage all you need to do is Steal -> Dodge every 20s**.

>

> Condi thief is an ultra noob friendly starter build that can easily suckerpunch/dispatch much stronger players with better mechanical skill.

>

> Making the damage require even the slightest nuance or adding just a few seconds of being on the aggressive would be the way to balance the condi Thief playstyle so it would actually require some finesse.

>

> Simple way to do that:

> - Poison on Steal minor trait, and Confusion on Steal major trait: **De-couple them from steal and give it a more evened out way of applying, but keep the max DPS output over time.**

>

> For example, shift this damage away from steal and towards landing Dual Wield attacks, Stealth attacks.

>

> That's all you have to do to make dealing damage on condi thief require an ounce of mechanical skill.

 

You forget the core S/D condi with double steal. they are more powerful than daredevil. You cleans one steal ? the next steal will do the work.

[Chaith.8256]

> @"Arlowslol.1974" said:

> You forget the core S/D condi with double steal. they are more powerful than daredevil. You cleans one steal ? the next steal will do the work.

 

I personally not have encountered this to my knowledge

 

 

[Arlowslol.1974]

> @"Chaith.8256" said:

> > @"Arlowslol.1974" said:

> > You forget the core S/D condi with double steal. they are more powerful than daredevil. You cleans one steal ? the next steal will do the work.

>

> I personally not have encountered this to my knowledge

>

>

 

I have seen this build over the old daredevil for some weeks. They have the same condi burst on sword#2->steal->dodge and they can use it 2 times.

 

In chinese server, it dominate all thief build.

[Jinks.2057]

The real combo is 2, dodge, steal, dodge, then 2 to safety.

 

That bursts harder and it's what you use once you bait out the cleanses. I haven't done any new testing to S/D condition thief since I championed it's original nerfing, but you used to be able to wear down anyone with just 2 + dodge over & over.

[mortrialus.3062]

There's been1-2 condi thieves on the enemy team every single game I've played tonight.

[Ziffner.1958]

Dear Anet,

plz avoid giving condi-burst specs easy access to (3+) cover condis.

Thx.

[mortrialus.3062]

I wish Brazil's channel still existed because I would link the video of him playing this build in ranked just before Path of Fire released and talking about how pure cheese it is. I distinctly remember right before PoF came out this build emerged as the most cancerous build seemingly out of nowhere. It's kind of bonkers. It makes pistol pistol look nuanced. It disappeared when PoF actually release but now that build has reemerged.

[saerni.2584]

Like all thieves that are in a gank posture:

 

You need to survive the gank and apply counter pressure. Letting a thief just use all their resources for attack will put you at a disadvantage. A thief’s cooldowns are universal on the weapon skills so making them defend automatically reduces their ability to attack.

 

The best thieves are played aggressively up until they need to disengage. The counter is playing aggressively but effectively against those thieves.

 

It was said before, against any condition build you need to counter a few key skills. Block, projectile hate and evade will be a part of that.

 

Condi Thief does not apply that many conditions compared to other condi builds so the thief need to land a high percentage of attacks to be effective. This is increased or decreased by the amount of cleanse available to the target but in general most attacks need to land to be lethal.

 

When talking about condi thief it is important to understand how the conditions are being applied. Learn the condi weapons for thief (S/D, D/D, P/D and Shortbow) and how they apply conditions. Also learn about venoms and other utilities or traits that apply conditions. It doesn’t take making a thief to see how to mitigate the effectiveness of particular sets.

 

Don’t stand in choking gas. Kite away from D/D Death Blossom. If the build uses projectiles then projectile hate helps. Check your build and bring a small cleanse and a big cleanse (for surprise attacks). Play aggressive but smart (don’t spam attacks into a death blossom thief, wait for the opening). If you are outnumbered by two thieves focusing you get a teammate to help. It’s pvp so stay on point and condi thieve will be disadvantaged if they aren’t an evade type build D/D or Daredevil Lotus. This goes to “play smart” because you can manipulate the thief by knowing what their build can’t do.

 

Finally, bring ranged pressure. The counter pressure of ranged projectiles is strong enough to force the thief into a defensive posture and waste initiative on that rather than attacking.

[babazhook.6805]

While I tend to play thief more often then not and gave s/d condi a whirl, I found it rather easy to counter with s/d (or sp) thief power and especially in the Daredevil line. S/d Condition will have little in the way of defenses/stealth and the burst all tied to the steal. It also very prone to Immobs.

 

From the perspective of a thief gainst this build , cripple is the main cover condition and easily removed. With few in the way of counters your own evades using EA or other cleanses will get at the damaging conditions rather easily. By the way if in Acro and since recent changes to Confusion that Guarded Initiation can do you worlds of good against Condition builds. S/d condition coming against s/d power will tend to lose as that Cleanse on #2 combined with don't stop in an acro build is neutralizing a great deal of the Condition builds damage and covers. With no cover conditions to worry about poison/confusion are more easily removed.

 

As to the SB it no different really then fighting a power build using SB. You just do not stand there and eat the Cluster bomb damage so why would you if the damage from a condition instead? At the end of the day you still have way more to fear from a well played p/d condition build.

 

As to the various forms of condition builds on a thief , I see little reason they need to be nerfed at all. It as if people do not want ANYTHINg to be a usable build and this sentiment is expressed NOT because the build OP , but because IMO people find them as builds that get them out of their own comfort zones forcing them to play in a way they would rather not play. If you do not want to change up your build or style of play to face condition builds because you favor power builds and being optimized to fight JUST power, then it not the fault of the Condition build that comes up against you.