Do we really need 9 new elite specs each expansion?

[Bakeneko.5826]

No. Anet cannot even balance what we have now without butchering previous specs, since their problem solving is not nerfing Elite spec traits/skills, but hitting core class

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"Ardenwolfe.8590" said:

> The power creep is real. No new shinies would send players into a fit. There's now an expectation of certain items in the expansions. And elite specs are one of them.

That's not so good however. problem with it is that many of the new especs have a completely different playstyle to the previous ones for that class. It's okay if that playstyle offers a new role for the class, without needing to nerf that role from the core class/previous espec (good example: druid - new playstyle, new role). It's quite another case if the new espec effectively _removes_ a role from core/old espec because it was assigned an already existing role and the previous specs were nerfed to make way for it, while having a markedly different gameplay feel (example: Scourge)

 

So, basically, elite specs for each expansion are fine. Elite specs that _remove_ old options , instead of enhancing them, are not fine.

 

[hugo.4705]

Definitely yes, more specs = more weapons = more diversity. Really want to see an elem with rifle and an Engie with Staff. I done the whole dredgehaunt map with my ele wearing a rifle (environmental weapon) , was very fun.

[Catchyfx.5768]

I would like to see new "core specialization" for all classes so you can mix it

Spite-x-x-x

"new traitline"-x-x-x

Reaper-x-x-x

for example

 

[ReaverKane.7598]

> @"Assic.2746" said:

> > @"ReaverKane.7598" said:

> > We actually need more than 9 per expansion...

> > In order to get a decent balance through variety we should already have like 3-4 elites per profession atm.

>

> I don't understand what "balance through variety" is?

>

> We already have 18 elite specs and 9 core specs which are not balanced. They are gonna slam another 9 new elite specs and hope everyone is gonna switch to those instead of balancing **abominations** like Scourge, Chrono? Have you seen how FUN WvW is post PoF? Every squad has 20+ Scourges, tons of visual noise.

 

Visual noise comes from Arena Net being lazy in their balance, and listening too much to feed back from passive casuals that won't think of counter-play ever in their life.

Balance through variety is probably an alien concept to the pretend-pvp community current to gw2.

 

But i'll explain... The basis of proper pvp balance isn't everyone having exact same stats and skills (well it works on shooters like Counterstrike that don't have classes) but as soon as you create classes and differentiation, the best way to achieve balance is through offering counter-plays and proper interaction on builds.

The problem with mesmers and Scourge's shades is that there's no counter, no interaction, because everything is one-sided.

Arena Net tried, and failed spectacularly, to add an interaction to shades through the dodge-warning, which doesn't make up for the fact that both major pvp modes depend on being inside fairly static locations, and just dodging without the ability to remove the shades won't work.

Look at any actual successful pvp-based game, be it MOBAs, Overwatch, etc, all these games have "overpowered" classes, that can steamroll an enemy team, but rarely will they do what Arena Net does, which is just nerf everything and hope that sticks (it didn't with Scourge, cause the problem wasn't the numbers), they'll usually tune numbers, of course, but also change mechanics in that character/class, or in others, to provide counter-play and interaction.

 

A good example of this kind of balance through variety would be scourge:

Basically scourge is a champion that exploits the overabundance of boons left over from HoT and Raid Builds, and turns that into misery and pain for the over-stacked.

It's a awesome concept, and it clearly works for PvP (i don't know how people can claim Arena Net only thinks of PvE for balance and concepts, when Scourge and Spellbreaker were clearly made with PvP in mind, and there's simply no cases where a skill/class was made useless in PvP for the sake of PvE, but the reverse is common).

Anyway, the best way for Scourge to be countered (besides having a way to remove shades from static spots) would be to have a class that can juggle conditions, and even turning them back to boons, or some other positive aspect that can't be undone by scourge again).

That's where more elites would come in to create balance. A new support elite that would counter scourge would definitely balance the game.

If you think about it, that kinda already exists, scourge is a perfect counter to scourge. But that is another issue, because its also the perfect counter to itself, scourges are just made more in demand, which upsets the balance further.

 

Right now GW2 is suffering from a perfect storm of several issues:

* Ridiculously slow balance schedule;

* Unresolved issues from HoT (like revenant and reaper balance, for example), compounded with their penchant to release Elite Specs in a completely broken OP state, because they believe it "sells";

* Uninspired balance team, that even though it takes months to release a balance patch, still miss the mark entirely 70% of the time at least;

* A mismanaged PVP scene (both sPvP and WvW) that was allowed to fester in broken systems to the point where there's barely anything left to salvage.

 

All those factors have simply snowballed into the perfect crap-storm that is current balance and PvP. And i doubt it'll change without Arena Net doing a profound revision of their approaches to these systems.

As someone that has completely given up PvP in GW2, my only issue with it right now, is that usually their inability to balance properly bleeds out into PvE, usually with a greater impact than on PvP (like it or not, damage goals in PvP are a fraction of what they are in PvE, and when they nerf damage throughout, like on Scourge, they just cripple it for PvE, not really on PvP because scourge's high damage on PvP doesn't come from the class, but from other people stacking up boons like they don't know there's a class that'll turn those boons into misery).

 

Another way to, not fix, but lessen the negative impact, would be a proper draft-pick class selection screen before spvp maps, where you can pick and ban classes for the match. This is also a great tool used by the aforementioned game genres to improve balance. When something is severely over-performing, the ban tool allows for players to remove it from the equation while the next patch arrives.

[Ardid.7203]

Offering more options to choose also makes less polemic the change to specific alternatives that are currently overperforming. Heavily changing Scourge when the only options for a Necro players are Reaper and Core is harder on the community than making that when most Necro players are trying the new stuff from the 3rd Expansion.

 

But, while I think the new Specs ARE needed to create enough variety, I don't think this leaves balance out. And I specially don't believe Core classes should keep being abandoned. I think these aren't mutually exclusive.

 

The real point is: I don't think expansions should solve balance. BALANCE SHOULD BE ACHIEVED NOW, not in an hypothetical 3dr expansion. Balance needs to grow into a constant, a permanent situation created through very frequent patches, continuous tweaking and daily testing. Any big change need to be done right now, not later, not with a big patch, not in tandem with major content deliveries, beside big selling products nor associated to Anet commercial objectives. BALANCE NEEDS TO BE A BASIC FUNCTION, not a excuse to boost sales.

 

So, going back to the poll: we DO need 9 new elite specs with each expansion. And they have to be properly balanced by default.

[gonzi.7605]

If they stop adding elite specs right now... it would be probably the worst decision that someone might ever make. Honestly elite specs did their job as best as it is possible, or even better than expectations. Its the only game in what i loved all classes and specs, bcs every1 got something special. Ele got their attuning mechanics and as weaver can attuning to 2 elements + got sword dancing style skills. Hunter is awesome bcs got pet... and not only, also can be great healer as Druid with one give him new "resource" to build up and play around. Necro is awesome too with his summoning and stealing life force... and also got nice specs, for example as reaper can take 2h Sword and do bloodshet reaping enemies.

 

As i told - every elite spec got something fresh and awesomess in even idea of it. Remember in practical way all skills are simple "single target/ground target; x dps; x effect". So its all about just idea. And trust me, there is a lot of ideas that can be fun and also unique in playstyle. For example i would like to see ele as "eldrith knight" from DnD, you know, 2H sword for weapon, and for special mechanic... maybe fifth attunement "arcane" and make him more... tanky than normal? And thats just a fast idea creating in... 5 seconds?

 

There is a lot of ways that unique personality of each classes might be show. And remember - even if we get in every expansion 1 new elite for every class.... it still will be how many? Five? Six? Per class. And its only if we will get 5-6 expansions, with is far future. But lets think about it - how many pve and pvp might win on this. It dont be as now "okay, enemy got necro so its scourge on 90%". And also in pve we might got something more than "chrono, warriors, ele, druids" till dead :P

[Moira Shalaar.5620]

To answer the OP's question, how about analyzing the kinds of content we have received with each expansion and game modes impacted. I will differentiate between PvE with things available only in the expansion zones and Global PvE for things available regardless of location. I use ~ to indicate limited access/crossover.

 

1. New Maps (PvE, WvW) In HoT we received 4 maps for PvE, PoF 5. WvW received a new borderland, although i have no intention of delving into the wide controversy involved there. I don't PvP so I haven't tracked when new maps have been added and when.

2. New Game Mechanics (~Global PvE, ~WvW) In HoT we received Gliding, Speedboost mushrooms, nuhoch wallows. Most of these are limited to the HoT zones & LS3 but eventually Gliding made it to Core & WvW. PoF has introduced mounts as a new game mechanic for movement for all areas in PvE. To my knowledge these are not usable/Available in any form in PvP.

3. New Stats (Global PvE, WvW, PvP) With each expansion we have been given access to additional stat combos, branching into different stat arrangements (3 stat vs. 4 stat). This can impact game play in all PvE zones.

4. Horizontal Progression (Global PvE, ~WvW, ~PvP) Some of you all may recall a long series of developer/player discussions regarding how to provide continued meaningful progression for players. These discussions resulted in the development of 2 different forms of horizontal progression: Masteries & Elite Specializations, the subject of this discussion. **To the person posting above wanting vertical progression (higher level cap) there is a huge amount of discussion regarding that elsewhere, but the shorthand is that it isn't going to happen in GW2**.

 

When we look at expansions, the larger portion of the content is PvE oriented. It is beyond the scope of this discussion to argue whether this is right or wrong, good or bad. The only content that benefits all modes of playing are the #3 New Stats and half the #4 Horizontal Progression: Elite Specializations. Given the rate of change (again not agreeing/disagreeing) in adopting new game mechanics to WvW (gliding), I am not sure those can be considered significant expansion content, but perhaps I am wrong.

 

Elite specializations are directly derived from player input through the old CDI discussions. They are what the vocal part of the player base asked for. If you want to now remove Elite specs from expansions, what alternatives would you fill that space with? To be of comparable value it should impact all PvE content & all 3 game modes. New races & new professions have been suggested both here and elsewhere, but those who have paid attention to these kinds of discussions are familiar with why they are much less likely to happen. How do you suggest ANET provide content that will be compelling to those who primarily play WvW or those who PVP? Would that content inspire players to revisit previously mastered content to try it again in new ways?

 

[Nuka Cola.8520]

No. What we need is new dungeons, new challenging content made for coop. That's what's needed in an EXPANSION. I'm tired of their brainless open world additions that bring absolutely nothing to the game. You already have a ton of boring open world meta. What's the point of adding more???

[Elmo Benchwarmer.3025]

I don't want new elites. They have done nothing good for the game's combat system. That's why I'd rather have more maps, new game modes (PvP), new skins (not outfits, no gem store) and more exploration.

[Dravyn.4671]

> @"Tanuk.7961" said:

> > @"Dravyn.4671" said:

> > Yes. Either that or new classes.

> >

> > Paragon, Rit and Dervish.

> >

> > Needs to happen.

>

> They should do that. 1 new class per armor weight with 2 elites each. Paragon for heavy, Dervish for medium, and Rit for light each with 2 elites. I'd pay all kinds of money for that. Heck, I'd pay all kinds of money just for a Rit by itself.

 

You and me both mang

[Sodeni.6041]

Elite specs is the most important thing in expansions for me. WIthout them I would be way less interested in buying them.

 

Experiencing your favourite classes in a completely new playstyle and identity is just so awesome!

[Allarius.5670]

Yes. Although sheer number can create problems, I think the main issue is that they have allowed themselves to drift away from core balance rules that keep performance in check. Balance isn't just about numbers and theoretical output, but also, if not more so, about raw mechanics and ease of execution.

 

New elites do not need to overperform compared to previous elites in all cases and roles. That is beyond betrayal of trust in your product and customer base. New elites just need to be different in how they approach gameplay as compared to previous specs for that profession.

[perilisk.1874]

If they didn't provide especs, they'd need to provide some other progression system to differentiate it from a very expensive set of Living Story epsiodes.

 

Masteries alone aren't enough, because they're not really part of character build, they're more of a parallel action-adventure system that sits alongside the RPG system of skills and attributes. They're also less of a play hook, since MPs are one and done, rather than repeated for each character.

[Ashen.2907]

Hmm, I said no because I do not think that the game needs 9 new specs every expansion, but I think that other posters are probably correct in saying that player expectations would be unmet without them. Even so I do think that elite pecs could be replaced by some other feature, perhaps all new weapons, in an expansion.

[Magnus Godrik.5841]

Yes because its expected. If they dont people will rage. I rather have new dungeons, but that's me.

[sitarskee.5738]

Yes, because adding new specs makes the game more interesting, it creates many new build variations and the more of a choice we have the better for us imo.

[Assic.2746]

> @"ReaverKane.7598" said:

>! > > @"Assic.2746" said:

>! > > > @"ReaverKane.7598" said:

>! > > > We actually need more than 9 per expansion...

>! > > > In order to get a decent balance through variety we should already have like 3-4 elites per profession atm.

>! > >

>! > > I don't understand what "balance through variety" is?

>! > >

>! > > We already have 18 elite specs and 9 core specs which are not balanced. They are gonna slam another 9 new elite specs and hope everyone is gonna switch to those instead of balancing **abominations** like Scourge, Chrono? Have you seen how FUN WvW is post PoF? Every squad has 20+ Scourges, tons of visual noise.

>! >

>! > Visual noise comes from Arena Net being lazy in their balance, and listening too much to feed back from passive casuals that won't think of counter-play ever in their life.

>! > Balance through variety is probably an alien concept to the pretend-pvp community current to gw2.

>! >

>! > But i'll explain... The basis of proper pvp balance isn't everyone having exact same stats and skills (well it works on shooters like Counterstrike that don't have classes) but as soon as you create classes and differentiation, the best way to achieve balance is through offering counter-plays and proper interaction on builds.

>! > The problem with mesmers and Scourge's shades is that there's no counter, no interaction, because everything is one-sided.

>! > Arena Net tried, and failed spectacularly, to add an interaction to shades through the dodge-warning, which doesn't make up for the fact that both major pvp modes depend on being inside fairly static locations, and just dodging without the ability to remove the shades won't work.

>! > Look at any actual successful pvp-based game, be it MOBAs, Overwatch, etc, all these games have "overpowered" classes, that can steamroll an enemy team, but rarely will they do what Arena Net does, which is just nerf everything and hope that sticks (it didn't with Scourge, cause the problem wasn't the numbers), they'll usually tune numbers, of course, but also change mechanics in that character/class, or in others, to provide counter-play and interaction.

>! >

>! > A good example of this kind of balance through variety would be scourge:

>! > Basically scourge is a champion that exploits the overabundance of boons left over from HoT and Raid Builds, and turns that into misery and pain for the over-stacked.

>! > It's a awesome concept, and it clearly works for PvP (i don't know how people can claim Arena Net only thinks of PvE for balance and concepts, when Scourge and Spellbreaker were clearly made with PvP in mind, and there's simply no cases where a skill/class was made useless in PvP for the sake of PvE, but the reverse is common).

>! > Anyway, the best way for Scourge to be countered (besides having a way to remove shades from static spots) would be to have a class that can juggle conditions, and even turning them back to boons, or some other positive aspect that can't be undone by scourge again).

>! > That's where more elites would come in to create balance. A new support elite that would counter scourge would definitely balance the game.

>! > If you think about it, that kinda already exists, scourge is a perfect counter to scourge. But that is another issue, because its also the perfect counter to itself, scourges are just made more in demand, which upsets the balance further.

>! >

>! > Right now GW2 is suffering from a perfect storm of several issues:

>! > * Ridiculously slow balance schedule;

>! > * Unresolved issues from HoT (like revenant and reaper balance, for example), compounded with their penchant to release Elite Specs in a completely broken OP state, because they believe it "sells";

>! > * Uninspired balance team, that even though it takes months to release a balance patch, still miss the mark entirely 70% of the time at least;

>! > * A mismanaged PVP scene (both sPvP and WvW) that was allowed to fester in broken systems to the point where there's barely anything left to salvage.

>! >

>! > All those factors have simply snowballed into the perfect crap-storm that is current balance and PvP. And i doubt it'll change without Arena Net doing a profound revision of their approaches to these systems.

>! > As someone that has completely given up PvP in GW2, my only issue with it right now, is that usually their inability to balance properly bleeds out into PvE, usually with a greater impact than on PvP (like it or not, damage goals in PvP are a fraction of what they are in PvE, and when they nerf damage throughout, like on Scourge, they just cripple it for PvE, not really on PvP because scourge's high damage on PvP doesn't come from the class, but from other people stacking up boons like they don't know there's a class that'll turn those boons into misery).

>! >

>! > Another way to, not fix, but lessen the negative impact, would be a proper draft-pick class selection screen before spvp maps, where you can pick and ban classes for the match. This is also a great tool used by the aforementioned game genres to improve balance. When something is severely over-performing, the ban tool allows for players to remove it from the equation while the next patch arrives.

>!

>!

 

I don't think it will work in GW2 in its current state. There is no variety because certain specs perform certain roles much better than others. We are at the point where we are fighting power creep with power creep. Everyone is happy because each months different class gets buffs. Endless cycle of buffing. And devs are too afraid to swing the axe because of the backlash it would cause.

 

I am not sure if devs realize how much **damage** caused Firebrand & Scourge to PvP/WvW. Visual noise is one thing. Boon spam & condi spam the other. Not to talk about Chrono changes. Maybe devs have forgotten that **most skills have 1/3/5 target cap so Chrono having 10 illusions often cannot even be hit because illusions get all the cleave**.

 

[Galmac.4680]

Yes, with 3 of them for necro, 2 for revenant, 1 for engi, 1 for ranger and 2 for guard. :)

[Emprer.7256]

yes Id be bored af if there werent.

[Ryan.7583]

No, we **don't need new elite spec.**

 

What we need is **BALANCE** ! All classes pure DPS build should be similar, there should be build which except DPS will give team some perks like blocks, CC, **little** heal.

 

That game was from start all about **playing what you want, how you want**, in golden ages there was no such thing as healers or tanks. Now departing from this, you have only few classes, or even few builds which you can play to get acceptable damage.

 

Instead of adding new spec which, most likely, will only repeat same mistakes.

What can be considered to add:

* **new race** will be ultra satisfactory for most of players

* add **new city** like Lions Arch - it should be Kamadan... but Fahranur can be good shot too, as first city ever, plus it is in the best region of Tyria, which players love.

* add **alliances** like Kurzik and Luxon in gw1 (even more that 2 - three or four will be fun) and **let people fight** with each other **in selected normal world maps(or regions of maps)** like in many other MMORPG,

* add **new dungeons** (even only story), but not in fractals - still can use agony resistance.

* **remaster fractals**, maybe **add more story from past** which will make lore more attractive. Now they are boring and only crazy big rewards (that should be for all dungeons same) keep players on it.

* implement solutions from gw1 - using some of **another profession skills**,

* create whole **same new builds** for all classes like URSAN in gw1,

* existing **weapons new role** [for example underwater weapons should be used on land too, and vice versa],

* **new skills setup** choose for existing weapons,

* remastering old **weapons mechanics** to give possibility [for example to warrior to have 2 greatswords, thief with 2 swords].

 

There are really many things which can be added instead of new spec to attract players and convince them to buy new expansion or even existing one if some of this will be added to new living story/world. Personally I think brand new feature are more attractive than cloned old solutions.

 

[Blocki.4931]

We do.

 

Keeps the game alive. Not everybody has to like it, but without it the game would simply be boring. Adding more options is never wrong. Making those options a bit stronger on release is not an issue either. It takes time to figure things out, especially if you compare a small test team against hundreds of thousands of players who might all be able to discover something that needs changing.

 

Nobody wants to see old content, sorry. The things some of you bring up here like changing dungeons or older maps aren't expansion type stuff. An expansion would bring us to a vastly different place in the world, not back to the same old maps we've played on for many years, no matter how shiny they may get.

[MithranArkanere.8957]

Yes, until each profession has an elite spcialization that focuses more than the others into one of the main 3 main roles and their 6 role aspects:

 

* Damage

* Damage

* Condition damage

* Support

* Healing

* Buffing

* Control

* Debuffing

* Tanking

 

That's 6 expansions with 9 elite specializations each.

 

Once that's done, it'll be time to start releasing new races instead.

[Rym.1469]

You have to consider that for 2/3 game modes new Elite specs and major balance changes *are the expansions/content updates*. Releasing none with expansion could be a disaster, as many people would simply skip it or wait for deep, deep sale later.

[Conncept.7638]

Not only do we, but it would help the game a lot to have more than that. I'd like to see 2-3 elite specs from each living world season, so 9 per expansion and 9 every few expansions, what we're getting now, which essentially equates to one new build (or less) per class per expansion just isn't adding enough new play to the game.

 

Furthermore, the elite specs do not inherently imbalance the game as a whole lot of people here are claiming. An elite spec can be imbalanced, but that's due to the same issues as imbalances in the vanilla game or any other game, generally being either poor scaling or an unforseen interraction with a game objective, not the mechanics or expansion of class content inherent to elite specs.