Why is sword burst so terrible?

[reikken.4961]

You do way more damage by autoattacking than by using it. It does about as much damage as 2-3 autos, and you could have landed 4-5 autos in the time it takes to channel it.

 

The Berserker version is better, but it still only does as much long term dps as autoattacking, with the only benefit being that the damage is more frontloaded.

 

this move needs a buff

[Raysson.2079]

They probably think that the immobilize makes up for it (it doesn't because it costs too much adrenaline).

[Obtena.7952]

Sword IS the warrior condi weapon ... if you don't see that, then obviously you don't understand the skills on it.

 

There isn't anything terrible about getting 11 bleed stacks every burst recharge, especially if you are playing a condi build ... which you would be likely to do playing sword. In fact, I don't even know why you would use a sword if you weren't playing a condi build.

[Blocki.4931]

Condition damage. The most damaging condi skill Berserker has btw, ESPECIALLY since it just got buffed by quite a bit in open world.

[reikken.4961]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> Sword IS the warrior condi weapon ... if you don't see that, then obviously you don't understand the skills on it.

 

Condi is what I'm talking about. Why would you assume I'm an idiot?

 

It's 10 stacks of... 2 second bleed (=20)

 

when you could land 5 autos and get 5 stacks of 8 second bleed (=40) in the same time frame. That's twice as much damage as the burst.

 

[DanAlcedo.3281]

> @"reikken.4961" said:

> > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > Sword IS the warrior condi weapon ... if you don't see that, then obviously you don't understand the skills on it.

>

> Condi is what I'm talking about. Why would you assume I'm an idiot?

>

> It's 10 stacks of... 2 second bleed (=20)

>

> when you could land 5 autos and get 5 stacks of 8 second bleed (=40) in the same time frame. That's twice as much damage as the burst.

>

 

But the 4 seconds of Immobilize man! That sooooooo strong these days! It actually need a nerf to 3 seconds of cripple. [sarcasm]

[Obtena.7952]

> @"reikken.4961" said:

> > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > Sword IS the warrior condi weapon ... if you don't see that, then obviously you don't understand the skills on it.

>

> Condi is what I'm talking about. Why would you assume I'm an idiot?

 

Because not everything is about how much damage you can do. Stick with your auto attack I guess ... seems the complexity and benefit of the warrior burst mechanic is not clear to you.

[Aigleborgne.2981]

Burst condi, it does its damage a lot faster ! Plus, you also benefit from all traits related to burst. So overall, it's better than auto.

[Blocki.4931]

> @"reikken.4961" said:

> > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > Sword IS the warrior condi weapon ... if you don't see that, then obviously you don't understand the skills on it.

>

> Condi is what I'm talking about. Why would you assume I'm an idiot?

>

> It's 10 stacks of... 2 second bleed (=20)

>

> when you could land 5 autos and get 5 stacks of 8 second bleed (=40) in the same time frame. That's twice as much damage as the burst.

>

 

Now imagine you had Expertise for condition duration and suddenly that's worth a damn with a 100% increase.

[InsaneQR.7412]

> @"Blocki.4931" said:

> Condition damage. The most damaging condi skill Berserker has btw, ESPECIALLY since it just got buffed by quite a bit in open world.

 

Sadly you are rooted on the core version. I love the berserker version for 2 things. The range aspect and you can MOVE . Wish flurry would us allow to move.

 

[RedShark.9548]

its bad because its hard to land on moving targets and because you are rooted in place while casting it

 

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> Sword IS the warrior condi weapon ... if you don't see that, then obviously you don't understand the skills on it.

>

> There isn't anything terrible about getting 11 bleed stacks every burst recharge, especially if you are playing a condi build ... which you would be likely to do playing sword. In fact, I don't even know why you would use a sword if you weren't playing a condi build.

 

you can use it in power builds for roaming in wvw with alot more mobility, especially good when the enemies tend to group up and you need to get in and out of a smallscale skirmish faster, flurry into 100b can be quite some dmg, also sword 3 on <50% is quite some dmg, but also hard to hit, not meta but playable, still flurry could use some help

[Red Haired Savage.5430]

Sword in wvw is literally used for 1 skill (sword leap). If it didn't have the mobility to get you in and out of skirmishes we'd use axe, dagger or mace I'd guess.

[Opopanax.1803]

> @"Blocki.4931" said:

> > @"reikken.4961" said:

> > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > Sword IS the warrior condi weapon ... if you don't see that, then obviously you don't understand the skills on it.

> >

> > Condi is what I'm talking about. Why would you assume I'm an idiot?

> >

> > It's 10 stacks of... 2 second bleed (=20)

> >

> > when you could land 5 autos and get 5 stacks of 8 second bleed (=40) in the same time frame. That's twice as much damage as the burst.

> >

>

> Now imagine you had Expertise for condition duration and suddenly that's worth a kitten with a 100% increase.

 

But that expertise on auto is even stronger...

[Blocki.4931]

> @"Opopanax.1803" said:

> > @"Blocki.4931" said:

> > > @"reikken.4961" said:

> > > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > > Sword IS the warrior condi weapon ... if you don't see that, then obviously you don't understand the skills on it.

> > >

> > > Condi is what I'm talking about. Why would you assume I'm an idiot?

> > >

> > > It's 10 stacks of... 2 second bleed (=20)

> > >

> > > when you could land 5 autos and get 5 stacks of 8 second bleed (=40) in the same time frame. That's twice as much damage as the burst.

> > >

> >

> > Now imagine you had Expertise for condition duration and suddenly that's worth a kitten with a 100% increase.

>

> But that expertise on auto is even stronger...

 

Point being? I just said that the expertise makes it worthwhile, though using base Flurry no ty.

[Ephemiel.5694]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > @"reikken.4961" said:

> > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > Sword IS the warrior condi weapon ... if you don't see that, then obviously you don't understand the skills on it.

> >

> > Condi is what I'm talking about. Why would you assume I'm an idiot?

>

> Because not everything is about how much damage you can do. Stick with your auto attack I guess ... seems the complexity and benefit of the warrior burst mechanic is not clear to you.

 

I love how you don't bother to explain either, just attack the guy for what he said.

[Red Haired Savage.5430]

> @"Ephemiel.5694" said:

> > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > @"reikken.4961" said:

> > > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > > Sword IS the warrior condi weapon ... if you don't see that, then obviously you don't understand the skills on it.

> > >

> > > Condi is what I'm talking about. Why would you assume I'm an idiot?

> >

> > Because not everything is about how much damage you can do. Stick with your auto attack I guess ... seems the complexity and benefit of the warrior burst mechanic is not clear to you.

>

> I love how you don't bother to explain either, just attack the guy for what he said.

 

I don't think they play warrior so they're not sure themselves, they're just theory crafting. Like in wvw the sword burst you don't actually finish the entire animation because it's a waste you just do it long enough to get your AH/Cleansing Ire/Immobilize, things that someone theory crafting wouldn't know.

[ReaverKane.7598]

> @"Ephemiel.5694" said:

> > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > @"reikken.4961" said:

> > > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > > Sword IS the warrior condi weapon ... if you don't see that, then obviously you don't understand the skills on it.

> > >

> > > Condi is what I'm talking about. Why would you assume I'm an idiot?

> >

> > Because not everything is about how much damage you can do. Stick with your auto attack I guess ... seems the complexity and benefit of the warrior burst mechanic is not clear to you.

>

> I love how you don't bother to explain either, just attack the guy for what he said.

 

Because 10 stacks for 2s will do more damage per second than 5 stacks in 8 seconds.

It's called a **BURST** for a reason, it does a lot more damage in shorter period, if you're in a long fight you can intersperse this with the autos to keep the bleeds going, but you can front-load those bleeds with the burst skill to start high.

Basically for 90% of the game's content the burst is better than the auto, since the target won't live those 8 seconds it takes for the auto to get ahead. For bosses the autos are better, but you can use the burst on cooldown to just boost your DPS a great deal.

 

Some math:

Imagining a player with only base stats (1000 condi damage, no expertise), which means a damage per tick of 82.

 

With the burst you deliver 9-11 stacks of 2s bleeding (depending on adrenaline level) in 2,5s cast time, that means 1476 - 1804 damage in 2 seconds (738 - 902 DPS).

Auto attack chain delivers 3 stacks in a bit less than 2 (1.85) seconds that last 8s, so in the time of a single Flurry you can feasibly have those 4-5 bleed stacks mentioned by @"reikken.4961".

That's 2624 - 3280 damage in 8 seconds, but only 328 - 410 damage per second.

 

NOTE: I'm talking about PVE, in PvP there's a lot more considerations to have. And still the burst will be immensely useful, if nothing else as a way to force a cleanse out of your adversary, or to get a strong tick after or before the cleanse.

Maths is based on wiki, i can't log into the game atm.

[DanAlcedo.3281]

> @"ReaverKane.7598" said:

> > @"Ephemiel.5694" said:

> > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > > @"reikken.4961" said:

> > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > > > Sword IS the warrior condi weapon ... if you don't see that, then obviously you don't understand the skills on it.

> > > >

> > > > Condi is what I'm talking about. Why would you assume I'm an idiot?

> > >

> > > Because not everything is about how much damage you can do. Stick with your auto attack I guess ... seems the complexity and benefit of the warrior burst mechanic is not clear to you.

> >

> > I love how you don't bother to explain either, just attack the guy for what he said.

>

> Because 10 stacks for 2s will do more damage per second than 5 stacks in 8 seconds.

> It's called a **BURST** for a reason, it does a lot more damage in shorter period, if you're in a long fight you can intersperse this with the autos to keep the bleeds going, but you can front-load those bleeds with the burst skill to start high.

> Basically for 90% of the game's content the burst is better than the auto, since the target won't live those 8 seconds it takes for the auto to get ahead. For bosses the autos are better, but you can use the burst on cooldown to just boost your DPS a great deal.

>

> Some math:

> Imagining a player with only base stats (1000 condi damage, no expertise), which means a damage per tick of 82.

>

> With the burst you deliver 9-11 stacks of 2s bleeding (depending on adrenaline level) in 2,5s cast time, that means 1476 - 1804 damage in 2 seconds (738 - 902 DPS).

> Auto attack chain delivers 3 stacks in a bit less than 2 (1.85) seconds that last 8s, so in the time of a single Flurry you can feasibly have those 4-5 bleed stacks mentioned by @"reikken.4961".

> That's 2624 - 3280 damage in 8 seconds, but only 328 - 410 damage per second.

>

> NOTE: I'm talking about PVE, in PvP there's a lot more considerations to have. And still the burst will be immensely useful, if nothing else as a way to force a cleanse out of your adversary, or to get a strong tick after or before the cleanse.

> Maths is based on wiki, i can't log into the game atm.

 

I think people just want a bit more OMPF / Kaplao / BANG .

The animation for flurry feels weak , you just stand there waving your sword a bit around.

The Imob is nice but even with condi gear the dmg feels meh.

 

A 8 second bleed just FEELS better then a 2 second bleed.

 

 

[Kiroshima.8497]

Flurry comes from an era where sword burst then weapon swap into 100B was top PvP/WvW damage. The bleeds have never done any significant damage due to their low base duration and long channel time. This is compounded by the fact that Condi Warrior (base) has 0 cover condis besides cripple (durations are EXTREMELY short), and sometimes torment (sword 4 is bad though).

 

Berserker adds the Flaming Flurry, which is great because low duration makes sense with burning. It's also ALWAYS faster due to Zerk Mode action speed or the quickness it grants. You can also move during it.

 

The thing is, Sword warrior still wasn't the best condi build, it was Mace Zerker. This is because Skull Grinder was the end all be all condi attack, 4 bleeds, 3 confusion, cripple, and blind. This is perfect since it naturally covers up its own damage with soft CC conditions, wasting clears. Also note the durations, 8 second bleeds and 5 second confusion are far superior to the 2 second bleeds of Flurry. It also took a whopping .5 seconds to cast, compared to the 1.25ish that Flaming Flurry does, or the 2.5 that Flurry has.

 

Flurry also has no finishers, no combo field, no fancy tricks or utility besides Immobolize. Axe (has a leap finisher too like sword) and Greatsword grant extra boons and hit like a truck, mace has a 3 second hard stun, Longbow grants a fire field and can blast itself. Flurry just waves the sword for a bit causing neglible damage. =/

 

Personally, I'd like Flurry to become an attack with a buff. If you recall the GW1 100 Blades, it was a SWORD skill that granted an extra auto hit around you whenever you attacked with your sword. For GW2, I'd like it to be say:

 

Strike and Immobolize (1/2/3s) enemies around you dealing bonus power damage per stack of bleeding and torment, then gain the Flurry of Blows buff for 3/6/9 seconds. Whenever you land a sword attack (any of them), strike enemies around you, causing bleeding and damage.

Cast Time: .5

CD: 8

Radius: 240

Unblockable

Damage (Initial): .5 power base, +.1 per bleed or torment.

Damage (Flurry): .1 power

Bleeding: 1 stack for 8 seconds

 

Also adjust Final Thrust to double bleeding/torment on the targets under 50% so it works for condi and power.

[ReaverKane.7598]

> @"DanAlcedo.3281" said:

> > @"ReaverKane.7598" said:

> > > @"Ephemiel.5694" said:

> > > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > > > @"reikken.4961" said:

> > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > > > > Sword IS the warrior condi weapon ... if you don't see that, then obviously you don't understand the skills on it.

> > > > >

> > > > > Condi is what I'm talking about. Why would you assume I'm an idiot?

> > > >

> > > > Because not everything is about how much damage you can do. Stick with your auto attack I guess ... seems the complexity and benefit of the warrior burst mechanic is not clear to you.

> > >

> > > I love how you don't bother to explain either, just attack the guy for what he said.

> >

> > Because 10 stacks for 2s will do more damage per second than 5 stacks in 8 seconds.

> > It's called a **BURST** for a reason, it does a lot more damage in shorter period, if you're in a long fight you can intersperse this with the autos to keep the bleeds going, but you can front-load those bleeds with the burst skill to start high.

> > Basically for 90% of the game's content the burst is better than the auto, since the target won't live those 8 seconds it takes for the auto to get ahead. For bosses the autos are better, but you can use the burst on cooldown to just boost your DPS a great deal.

> >

> > Some math:

> > Imagining a player with only base stats (1000 condi damage, no expertise), which means a damage per tick of 82.

> >

> > With the burst you deliver 9-11 stacks of 2s bleeding (depending on adrenaline level) in 2,5s cast time, that means 1476 - 1804 damage in 2 seconds (738 - 902 DPS).

> > Auto attack chain delivers 3 stacks in a bit less than 2 (1.85) seconds that last 8s, so in the time of a single Flurry you can feasibly have those 4-5 bleed stacks mentioned by @"reikken.4961".

> > That's 2624 - 3280 damage in 8 seconds, but only 328 - 410 damage per second.

> >

> > NOTE: I'm talking about PVE, in PvP there's a lot more considerations to have. And still the burst will be immensely useful, if nothing else as a way to force a cleanse out of your adversary, or to get a strong tick after or before the cleanse.

> > Maths is based on wiki, i can't log into the game atm.

>

> I think people just want a bit more OMPF / Kaplao / BANG .

> The animation for flurry feels weak , you just stand there waving your sword a bit around.

> The Imob is nice but even with condi gear the dmg feels meh.

>

> A 8 second bleed just FEELS better then a 2 second bleed.

>

>

LOL! Come on man, don't try to BS people like that. How the hell is something so incrementally small and spread over time going to be "felt" more intensely than a +3x output in a short amount of time. At least try to make sense when you type man.

[reikken.4961]

> @"Red Haired Savage.5430" said:

> I don't think they play warrior so they're not sure themselves, they're just theory crafting. Like in wvw the sword burst you don't actually finish the entire animation because it's a waste you just do it long enough to get your AH/Cleansing Ire/Immobilize, things that someone theory crafting wouldn't know.

 

That's my point, though. If a skill should always be cancelled in optimal use, there is something wrong with it.

[reikken.4961]

> @"ReaverKane.7598" said:

> For bosses the autos are better, but you can use the burst on cooldown to just boost your DPS a great deal.

 

that's not how condi dps works, though

yes, you'll have more bleeding for 2 seconds after using the burst skill, but then when those stacks wear off, for a long time afterward, you have 4-5 fewer stacks than if you hadn't used the burst. Using it at any point will lower your dps.

 

Like let's say you're full viper, and autoing maintains 26-27 stacks of bleeding on your target. If you use the burst, then over a two sec channel, that will go up to 32 for about two seconds, but then over the next two seconds it drops down to about 22 for the next 12 or so seconds, so you lose out on a lot of bleeding.

 

but as to your other point, yes, if perfectly timed, for very short fights or to end a fight, it is (very marginally) better than autos. but even this is situational, because the king of short fights is power damage, and flurry does less power damage than autos. Even on viper, autos (and final thrust) do a significant amount of power damage, so the extra burst bleeding on flurry even if perfectly timed near the end of a fight only nets you about half an auto's worth of bleeding damage

[Oglaf.1074]

The self-root needs to go bye-bye, for one. Self-root in any melee skill in 2018 is quite silly indeed.

[Red Haired Savage.5430]

> @"reikken.4961" said:

> > @"Red Haired Savage.5430" said:

> > I don't think they play warrior so they're not sure themselves, they're just theory crafting. Like in wvw the sword burst you don't actually finish the entire animation because it's a waste you just do it long enough to get your AH/Cleansing Ire/Immobilize, things that someone theory crafting wouldn't know.

>

> That's my point, though. If a skill should always be cancelled in optimal use, there is something wrong with it.

 

I fully agree with that. However (I'm talking WvW here) the main usage of sword on a warrior is for the Savage Leap skill to get you into and out of fights. The using of the burst is just something we do to get our cleansing ire, adrenal health, etc. We're not using the sword for it's intended purpose (so I'm not sure how much we can complain), we're using it because it has the benefit of a 600 range leap on an 8 second cool down. We use sword in WvW because on one handed mobility we don't really have any other good options (dagger isn't much mobility, dagger 2 is nothing you go the same distance in the same time by walking).

[DanAlcedo.3281]

> @"ReaverKane.7598" said:

> > @"DanAlcedo.3281" said:

> > > @"ReaverKane.7598" said:

> > > > @"Ephemiel.5694" said:

> > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > > > > @"reikken.4961" said:

> > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > > > > > Sword IS the warrior condi weapon ... if you don't see that, then obviously you don't understand the skills on it.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Condi is what I'm talking about. Why would you assume I'm an idiot?

> > > > >

> > > > > Because not everything is about how much damage you can do. Stick with your auto attack I guess ... seems the complexity and benefit of the warrior burst mechanic is not clear to you.

> > > >

> > > > I love how you don't bother to explain either, just attack the guy for what he said.

> > >

> > > Because 10 stacks for 2s will do more damage per second than 5 stacks in 8 seconds.

> > > It's called a **BURST** for a reason, it does a lot more damage in shorter period, if you're in a long fight you can intersperse this with the autos to keep the bleeds going, but you can front-load those bleeds with the burst skill to start high.

> > > Basically for 90% of the game's content the burst is better than the auto, since the target won't live those 8 seconds it takes for the auto to get ahead. For bosses the autos are better, but you can use the burst on cooldown to just boost your DPS a great deal.

> > >

> > > Some math:

> > > Imagining a player with only base stats (1000 condi damage, no expertise), which means a damage per tick of 82.

> > >

> > > With the burst you deliver 9-11 stacks of 2s bleeding (depending on adrenaline level) in 2,5s cast time, that means 1476 - 1804 damage in 2 seconds (738 - 902 DPS).

> > > Auto attack chain delivers 3 stacks in a bit less than 2 (1.85) seconds that last 8s, so in the time of a single Flurry you can feasibly have those 4-5 bleed stacks mentioned by @"reikken.4961".

> > > That's 2624 - 3280 damage in 8 seconds, but only 328 - 410 damage per second.

> > >

> > > NOTE: I'm talking about PVE, in PvP there's a lot more considerations to have. And still the burst will be immensely useful, if nothing else as a way to force a cleanse out of your adversary, or to get a strong tick after or before the cleanse.

> > > Maths is based on wiki, i can't log into the game atm.

> >

> > I think people just want a bit more OMPF / Kaplao / BANG .

> > The animation for flurry feels weak , you just stand there waving your sword a bit around.

> > The Imob is nice but even with condi gear the dmg feels meh.

> >

> > A 8 second bleed just FEELS better then a 2 second bleed.

> >

> >

> LOL! Come on man, don't try to BS people like that. How the hell is something so incrementally small and spread over time going to be "felt" more intensely than a +3x output in a short amount of time. At least try to make sense when you type man.

 

I think you are taking it a bit to serious and im taking it a bit not serious enough.