Voltekka.2375 Posted May 21, 2018 Share Posted May 21, 2018 > @"whoknocks.4935" said: > > @"Voltekka.2375" said: > > > @"whoknocks.4935" said: > > > > @"CantoGuy.6459" said: > > > > Ok I'm probably going to get a lot of "lawl thief is bad learn to play" but I'm pretty fricken tired of this class being pretty much immortal right now. Currently if a thief engages it faces absolutely no consequences by having instant reflexes. No matter what I do to defend myself all the thief has to do is keep attacking until their below 50% where their bullsh!t auto invulnerability trait activates and then they can just go use their never-ending supply of ports to get away unpunished. Though Mesmer is just as annoying at least they CAN be killed but as long as instant reflexes is in the game thief will always be the most forgiving class... > > > > > > Actually started playing thief for the first time lately, and it's a profession that pay off a lot the skill level of the player, to be good at thief you have to know perfectly every single enemy profession you encounter, dodge at the right time more than any other profession, insta pop your stunbreaks if you get Cc'd. One mistake and you die poorly. > > > > > > Completely opposite case is scourge, with scourge you dont care if the enemy has aegis, resistance, stability, or any other boon. You just spam your skills, corrupt anything, interrupt the enemy healing skill converting stab into fear and you win even random dodging. > > > > > > Definetely thief is way and a lot easier to kill than condi mirage or any other mirage build, they are not at the level of scourge, but definitely a low risk high reward spec which has more evades, invulns, mobility, sustan than a thief, plus access to stealth as well. > > > > > > You can recognise immediately a noob thief who just started the game from a pro one, the difference is huge, it's not a profession you play for the first time and you are a champion with it. Scourge has a low skill cap, you wont see much difference from a good scourge to a bad one, the good one probably will time the interrupts on you better, but he will still spam brainlessy. > > > > > > > Scourge is a terrible dueling class. Honestly, if you die to scourge as any half decent dueling class, (thief mesmer ranger scepter or sword weaver holo etc)... Kiting the scourge kills the scourge. Not sure why scourge is seen as a threat in roaming > > Maybe you never encountered a vitality healing power condi scourge xD if you find one roaming you know what i mean, even worse than vitality toughness condi... If you play a dueling class and have trouble bringimg down any scourge, you are the problem. Just pewpew it from range. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jugglemonkey.8741 Posted May 21, 2018 Share Posted May 21, 2018 > @"Rezzet.3614" said: > eh thief's passive defense is ok, thief's problem is shortbow 5+ spam, Steal's range , sword's 2 spam, super speed on stealth(on a perma stealth class) thief basically has infinite mobility as long they got initiative , pair that with the easy access to stealth and yeah it becomes a problem amplified once you pair it with Daredevil triple avade+ evade dash Once again, you can't have all of those things at the same time, if you're going to argue by listing the things a class can do at once regardless of build they all sound op. Also, mesmers dodging without an animation means they can evade while spiking, stunned, or immobed, with no penalty. Combine that with a much better spike from stealth, range, invulns and mobility of mirage, and that's broken in ways daredevil can't dream of. Just saying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rezzet.3614 Posted May 21, 2018 Share Posted May 21, 2018 > @"Jugglemonkey.8741" said: > > @"Rezzet.3614" said: > > eh thief's passive defense is ok, thief's problem is shortbow 5+ spam, Steal's range , sword's 2 spam, super speed on stealth(on a perma stealth class) thief basically has infinite mobility as long they got initiative , pair that with the easy access to stealth and yeah it becomes a problem amplified once you pair it with Daredevil triple avade+ evade dash > > Once again, you can't have all of those things at the same time, if you're going to argue by listing the things a class can do at once regardless of build they all sound op. > > Also, mesmers dodging without an animation means they can evade while spiking, stunned, or immobed, with no penalty. Combine that with a much better spike from stealth, range, invulns and mobility of mirage, and that's broken in ways daredevil can't dream of. Just saying. well as far as i know consensus is that mesmer as a whole has been OP since launch pretty much so it aint like we pointing out one is OP and the other isnt , the diference is that if a mirage slips up they are dead because their stuff at least has cooldown so if you reveal a mesmer you can kill them if you know how to deal with their burst , if you reveal a thief they'll just shadowstep to the other side of the universe ,both need toning down tho. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stand The Wall.6987 Posted May 21, 2018 Share Posted May 21, 2018 if you know how to play, an auto proc with a ~~90~~ 40 sec cd will not save them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadowcat.2680 Posted May 21, 2018 Share Posted May 21, 2018 Thread title is a bit misleading as Instant Reflexes is not a passive defense thieves have just so (as in it's not a class mechanic guaranteed to be on every thief build like Distortion for mesmers). Acrobatics is also weaker than it used to be after nerfs to it in March, so there are probably less thieves running Instant Reflexes. As to fighting something running the trait, it's a two second evade on a forty second cooldown and is not even close to being one of the more notable evades in the game when comparing evade duration to the cooldown of the trait or skill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apharma.3741 Posted May 22, 2018 Share Posted May 22, 2018 > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > Thread title is a bit misleading as Instant Reflexes is not a passive defense thieves have just so (as in it's not a class mechanic guaranteed to be on every thief build like Distortion for mesmers). Acrobatics is also weaker than it used to be after nerfs to it in March, so there are probably less thieves running Instant Reflexes. > > As to fighting something running the trait, it's a two second evade on a forty second cooldown and is not even close to being one of the more notable evades in the game when comparing evade duration to the cooldown of the trait or skill. The issue is the auto proc save me aspect not that they have a skill that they can use to defend themselves. Last I checked distortion still requires you to actually press that button at the right time. If you had mentioned mental defence maybe that would have had merit but it seems you missed the point. That instant reflexes is on a 40s CD is very low for an auto proc, especially one as strong as 2s evasion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turk.5460 Posted May 22, 2018 Share Posted May 22, 2018 > @"Rezzet.3614" said: > > @"Jugglemonkey.8741" said: > > > @"Rezzet.3614" said: > > > eh thief's passive defense is ok, thief's problem is shortbow 5+ spam, Steal's range , sword's 2 spam, super speed on stealth(on a perma stealth class) thief basically has infinite mobility as long they got initiative , pair that with the easy access to stealth and yeah it becomes a problem amplified once you pair it with Daredevil triple avade+ evade dash > > > > Once again, you can't have all of those things at the same time, if you're going to argue by listing the things a class can do at once regardless of build they all sound op. > > > > Also, mesmers dodging without an animation means they can evade while spiking, stunned, or immobed, with no penalty. Combine that with a much better spike from stealth, range, invulns and mobility of mirage, and that's broken in ways daredevil can't dream of. Just saying. > > the diference is that if a mirage slips up they are dead LOL no. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadowcat.2680 Posted May 22, 2018 Share Posted May 22, 2018 > @"apharma.3741" said: > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > Thread title is a bit misleading as Instant Reflexes is not a passive defense thieves have just so (as in it's not a class mechanic guaranteed to be on every thief build like Distortion for mesmers). Acrobatics is also weaker than it used to be after nerfs to it in March, so there are probably less thieves running Instant Reflexes. > > > > As to fighting something running the trait, it's a two second evade on a forty second cooldown and is not even close to being one of the more notable evades in the game when comparing evade duration to the cooldown of the trait or skill. > > The issue is the auto proc save me aspect not that they have a skill that they can use to defend themselves. Last I checked distortion still requires you to actually press that button at the right time. If you had mentioned mental defence maybe that would have had merit but it seems you missed the point. That instant reflexes is on a 40s CD is very low for an auto proc, especially one as strong as 2s evasion. No, you missed my point: the only comparison I made between Instant Reflexes and Distortion was to illustrate that Instant Reflexes is not a defense inherent to all thieves regardless of build. I could've named any defensive profession mechanic, such as shroud for necromancer, and made the same point about the inaccuracy of the thread's title. The other point I made was about fighting something running the trait: a two second evasion on a forty second cooldown is going to be a small percentage of the evasion a thief does during a fight. The strength of the profession has never been in this single trait and a number of thief builds don't even run it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DemonSeed.3528 Posted May 22, 2018 Share Posted May 22, 2018 > @"Rezzet.3614" said: > > @"Jugglemonkey.8741" said: > > > @"Rezzet.3614" said: > > > eh thief's passive defense is ok, thief's problem is shortbow 5+ spam, Steal's range , sword's 2 spam, super speed on stealth(on a perma stealth class) thief basically has infinite mobility as long they got initiative , pair that with the easy access to stealth and yeah it becomes a problem amplified once you pair it with Daredevil triple avade+ evade dash > > > > Once again, you can't have all of those things at the same time, if you're going to argue by listing the things a class can do at once regardless of build they all sound op. > > > > Also, mesmers dodging without an animation means they can evade while spiking, stunned, or immobed, with no penalty. Combine that with a much better spike from stealth, range, invulns and mobility of mirage, and that's broken in ways daredevil can't dream of. Just saying. > > well as far as i know consensus is that mesmer as a whole has been OP since launch pretty much so it aint like we pointing out one is OP and the other isnt , the diference is that if a mirage slips up they are dead because their stuff at least has cooldown so if you reveal a mesmer you can kill them if you know how to deal with their burst , if you reveal a thief they'll just shadowstep to the other side of the universe ,both need toning down tho. Dunno, it really takes a lot for me on any of my mirage builds to 'slip up'. For me my only enemy is lag - aside from that I've always managed to have a few things in place no matter what, Target breaks/distort/mass invis/jaunt/clone/stealth/weapon leaps/blink/Dodges/etc/etc... Mirage is great for "getting away" with shenanigans and have nothing much to worry about, and even more dangerous in the hands of a good player. This is also another reason I've used mine less and less, because there is essentially no challenge, it's too forgiving. Whether I go power, hybrid or condi it doesn't matter, the results are essentially the same. Chrono & mirage still need looking at imo, especially mirage. Sure they feel good to play, but that's because you can pretty much drop anything without much worry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apharma.3741 Posted May 22, 2018 Share Posted May 22, 2018 > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > Thread title is a bit misleading as Instant Reflexes is not a passive defense thieves have just so (as in it's not a class mechanic guaranteed to be on every thief build like Distortion for mesmers). Acrobatics is also weaker than it used to be after nerfs to it in March, so there are probably less thieves running Instant Reflexes. > > > > > > As to fighting something running the trait, it's a two second evade on a forty second cooldown and is not even close to being one of the more notable evades in the game when comparing evade duration to the cooldown of the trait or skill. > > > > The issue is the auto proc save me aspect not that they have a skill that they can use to defend themselves. Last I checked distortion still requires you to actually press that button at the right time. If you had mentioned mental defence maybe that would have had merit but it seems you missed the point. That instant reflexes is on a 40s CD is very low for an auto proc, especially one as strong as 2s evasion. > > No, you missed my point: the only comparison I made between Instant Reflexes and Distortion was to illustrate that Instant Reflexes is not a defense inherent to all thieves regardless of build. I could've named any defensive profession mechanic, such as shroud for necromancer, and made the same point about the inaccuracy of the thread's title. > > The other point I made was about fighting something running the trait: a two second evasion on a forty second cooldown is going to be a small percentage of the evasion a thief does during a fight. The strength of the profession has never been in this single trait and a number of thief builds don't even run it. > > You’re confusing auto proc traited defences with base defences of classes, distortion, shroud, blinds, stealth, evades on weapon skills are these. This thread is about the trained optional defence instant reflex essentially saving the thief halfway through a counter burst saving them and giving them 2s to run when they will be able to outrun and try again in 40s vs most classes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inoki.6048 Posted May 22, 2018 Share Posted May 22, 2018 > @"X T D.6458" said: > Stealth needs to be removed from the game. Removing a core mechanic because some find it hard to counter (L2P issue) is not a solution and should never happen. Stealth is present in most games, just as camouflage in real life. The only thing it may need is a rework. ANet have already taken measures to stealth application. Deadeyes can feel the "nerf" after the most recent revision. In ESO, given the fact anyone can just crouch to hide nothing will be done either. People just need to up their game. In GW2 Deadeyes are an example of a profession built around stealth (DJ has become a stealth-only skill). After removing stealth what should they remove next? Dodges? Because AFAIK those are far more OP. A S/D thief is far more annoying than a rifle DE that dies from sneezing at him. Just because you can see a target doesn't mean it's going to be easier to kill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MUDse.7623 Posted May 22, 2018 Share Posted May 22, 2018 > @"Inoki.6048" said: > ANet have already taken measures to stealth application. Deadeyes can feel the "nerf" after the most recent revision. can you explain how a frequent uninterruptable stealth access that we recieved from the rework is a nerf in stealth application ? > In GW2 Deadeyes are an example of a profession built around stealth (DJ has become a stealth-only skill). After removing stealth what should they remove next? Dodges? Because AFAIK those are far more OP. A S/D thief is far more annoying than a rifle DE that dies from sneezing at him. Just because you can see a target doesn't mean it's going to be easier to kill. you are right dodges are way stronger then stealth and thats why we can have more stealth then we can have evades. a thief with acro and instant reflexes can escape a counterburst alot better then a DE or atleast he doesnt need to react as fast as the auto proc will give him more time, the DE tho now with the uninterruptable stealth on rifle feels a lot less fragile then before patch - not really dies from sneezing as you can better avoid being hit at all with range + stealth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inoki.6048 Posted May 22, 2018 Share Posted May 22, 2018 > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > @"Inoki.6048" said: > > ANet have already taken measures to stealth application. Deadeyes can feel the "nerf" after the most recent revision. > can you explain how a frequent uninterruptable stealth access that we recieved from the rework is a nerf in stealth application ? > > In GW2 Deadeyes are an example of a profession built around stealth (DJ has become a stealth-only skill). After removing stealth what should they remove next? Dodges? Because AFAIK those are far more OP. A S/D thief is far more annoying than a rifle DE that dies from sneezing at him. Just because you can see a target doesn't mean it's going to be easier to kill. > > you are right dodges are way stronger then stealth and thats why we can have more stealth then we can have evades. a thief with acro and instant reflexes can escape a counterburst alot better then a DE or atleast he doesnt need to react as fast as the auto proc will give him more time, the DE tho now with the uninterruptable stealth on rifle feels a lot less fragile then before patch - not really dies from sneezing as you can better avoid being hit at all with range + stealth. > First define "Frequent uninterrupted stealth". How did you come to this I'm not sure since kneeling no longer provides stealth and most other abilities that do have a 30s CD on average. Stealth on dodge has a CD on the trait from my observation (haven't played the DE much after the patch, did some testing tho). Since Kneel no longer provides stealth DEs are forced to stealth by other means which can't be considered uninterrupted. Leaping through smoke fields can be interrupted, smoke fields themselves are a hint a thief is in the area so just placing a fear mark on one prevents them automatically from re-entering stealth given they have no access to Stab. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadowcat.2680 Posted May 22, 2018 Share Posted May 22, 2018 > @"apharma.3741" said: > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > Thread title is a bit misleading as Instant Reflexes is not a passive defense thieves have just so (as in it's not a class mechanic guaranteed to be on every thief build like Distortion for mesmers). Acrobatics is also weaker than it used to be after nerfs to it in March, so there are probably less thieves running Instant Reflexes. > > > > > > > > As to fighting something running the trait, it's a two second evade on a forty second cooldown and is not even close to being one of the more notable evades in the game when comparing evade duration to the cooldown of the trait or skill. > > > > > > The issue is the auto proc save me aspect not that they have a skill that they can use to defend themselves. Last I checked distortion still requires you to actually press that button at the right time. If you had mentioned mental defence maybe that would have had merit but it seems you missed the point. That instant reflexes is on a 40s CD is very low for an auto proc, especially one as strong as 2s evasion. > > > > No, you missed my point: the only comparison I made between Instant Reflexes and Distortion was to illustrate that Instant Reflexes is not a defense inherent to all thieves regardless of build. I could've named any defensive profession mechanic, such as shroud for necromancer, and made the same point about the inaccuracy of the thread's title. > > > > The other point I made was about fighting something running the trait: a two second evasion on a forty second cooldown is going to be a small percentage of the evasion a thief does during a fight. The strength of the profession has never been in this single trait and a number of thief builds don't even run it. > > > > > > You’re confusing auto proc traited defences with base defences of classes, distortion, shroud, blinds, stealth, evades on weapon skills are these. This thread is about the trained optional defence instant reflex essentially saving the thief halfway through a counter burst saving them and giving them 2s to run when they will be able to outrun and try again in 40s vs most classes. I'm not confusing anything. Read the thread title. The title implies the OP is looking to get a profession-wide defense stripped from the profession when his complaint actually lies with a single trait. It's just an inaccurate title. I'm fully aware what the thread is about and what the trait is. It's not that strong of a trait. It's a predictable two second evasion; plan fights accordingly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MUDse.7623 Posted May 22, 2018 Share Posted May 22, 2018 > @"Inoki.6048" said: > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > @"Inoki.6048" said: > > > ANet have already taken measures to stealth application. Deadeyes can feel the "nerf" after the most recent revision. > > can you explain how a frequent uninterruptable stealth access that we recieved from the rework is a nerf in stealth application ? > > > In GW2 Deadeyes are an example of a profession built around stealth (DJ has become a stealth-only skill). After removing stealth what should they remove next? Dodges? Because AFAIK those are far more OP. A S/D thief is far more annoying than a rifle DE that dies from sneezing at him. Just because you can see a target doesn't mean it's going to be easier to kill. > > > > you are right dodges are way stronger then stealth and thats why we can have more stealth then we can have evades. a thief with acro and instant reflexes can escape a counterburst alot better then a DE or atleast he doesnt need to react as fast as the auto proc will give him more time, the DE tho now with the uninterruptable stealth on rifle feels a lot less fragile then before patch - not really dies from sneezing as you can better avoid being hit at all with range + stealth. > > > > First define "Frequent uninterrupted stealth". How did you come to this I'm not sure since kneeling no longer provides stealth and most other abilities that do have a 30s CD on average. Stealth on dodge has a CD on the trait from my observation (haven't played the DE much after the patch, did some testing tho). > > Since Kneel no longer provides stealth DEs are forced to stealth by other means which can't be considered uninterrupted. Leaping through smoke fields can be interrupted, smoke fields themselves are a hint a thief is in the area so just placing a fear mark on one prevents them automatically from re-entering stealth given they have no access to Stab. stealth on dodge has a 10s cooldown that is visible in your buff bar, if you are kneeling during the dodge it gets removed at the end of the roll = no cd, if you are standing you can tap kneel to reset cooldown. with endurance food you can dodge often for stealth and with vigor even more. i have enough endurance that i can with just silent scope and hidden thief remain permanently in stealth without any animation, without the risk to selfreveal as my stealth stacking has no hits. before patch i had to use either shadow refuge or d/p for smoke+leap both have visible parts for the opponents and can be used to reveal the thief. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inoki.6048 Posted May 22, 2018 Share Posted May 22, 2018 > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > @"Inoki.6048" said: > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > @"Inoki.6048" said: > > > > ANet have already taken measures to stealth application. Deadeyes can feel the "nerf" after the most recent revision. > > > can you explain how a frequent uninterruptable stealth access that we recieved from the rework is a nerf in stealth application ? > > > > In GW2 Deadeyes are an example of a profession built around stealth (DJ has become a stealth-only skill). After removing stealth what should they remove next? Dodges? Because AFAIK those are far more OP. A S/D thief is far more annoying than a rifle DE that dies from sneezing at him. Just because you can see a target doesn't mean it's going to be easier to kill. > > > > > > you are right dodges are way stronger then stealth and thats why we can have more stealth then we can have evades. a thief with acro and instant reflexes can escape a counterburst alot better then a DE or atleast he doesnt need to react as fast as the auto proc will give him more time, the DE tho now with the uninterruptable stealth on rifle feels a lot less fragile then before patch - not really dies from sneezing as you can better avoid being hit at all with range + stealth. > > > > > > > First define "Frequent uninterrupted stealth". How did you come to this I'm not sure since kneeling no longer provides stealth and most other abilities that do have a 30s CD on average. Stealth on dodge has a CD on the trait from my observation (haven't played the DE much after the patch, did some testing tho). > > > > Since Kneel no longer provides stealth DEs are forced to stealth by other means which can't be considered uninterrupted. Leaping through smoke fields can be interrupted, smoke fields themselves are a hint a thief is in the area so just placing a fear mark on one prevents them automatically from re-entering stealth given they have no access to Stab. > > stealth on dodge has a 10s cooldown that is visible in your buff bar, if you are kneeling during the dodge it gets removed at the end of the roll = no cd, if you are standing you can tap kneel to reset cooldown. with endurance food you can dodge often for stealth and with vigor even more. i have enough endurance that i can with just silent scope and hidden thief remain permanently in stealth without any animation, without the risk to selfreveal as my stealth stacking has no hits. before patch i had to use either shadow refuge or d/p for smoke+leap both have visible parts for the opponents and can be used to reveal the thief. > > this I was completely unaware of. Before it was possible to stay invis non-stop with animations, but those never concerned me in particular, and also without them with just kneeling and random utility use, which would be the obvious reason they removed stealth from kneeling. This would then again feel different to everyone. For me and my play style and generally - I wouldn't say most were aware of the exploitable dodge mechanic - it could be considered, that prior to patching stealth was uninterrupted and now it's less consistent. Players will always find ways to exploit a mechanic and the mechanic will then be nerfed, again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DragonSlayer.1087 Posted May 22, 2018 Share Posted May 22, 2018 Nope. The thief is fine. In fact it needs to be buffed. Mesmers are unkillable. Warriors are unkillable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apharma.3741 Posted May 22, 2018 Share Posted May 22, 2018 > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > Thread title is a bit misleading as Instant Reflexes is not a passive defense thieves have just so (as in it's not a class mechanic guaranteed to be on every thief build like Distortion for mesmers). Acrobatics is also weaker than it used to be after nerfs to it in March, so there are probably less thieves running Instant Reflexes. > > > > > > > > > > As to fighting something running the trait, it's a two second evade on a forty second cooldown and is not even close to being one of the more notable evades in the game when comparing evade duration to the cooldown of the trait or skill. > > > > > > > > The issue is the auto proc save me aspect not that they have a skill that they can use to defend themselves. Last I checked distortion still requires you to actually press that button at the right time. If you had mentioned mental defence maybe that would have had merit but it seems you missed the point. That instant reflexes is on a 40s CD is very low for an auto proc, especially one as strong as 2s evasion. > > > > > > No, you missed my point: the only comparison I made between Instant Reflexes and Distortion was to illustrate that Instant Reflexes is not a defense inherent to all thieves regardless of build. I could've named any defensive profession mechanic, such as shroud for necromancer, and made the same point about the inaccuracy of the thread's title. > > > > > > The other point I made was about fighting something running the trait: a two second evasion on a forty second cooldown is going to be a small percentage of the evasion a thief does during a fight. The strength of the profession has never been in this single trait and a number of thief builds don't even run it. > > > > > > > > > > You’re confusing auto proc traited defences with base defences of classes, distortion, shroud, blinds, stealth, evades on weapon skills are these. This thread is about the trained optional defence instant reflex essentially saving the thief halfway through a counter burst saving them and giving them 2s to run when they will be able to outrun and try again in 40s vs most classes. > > I'm not confusing anything. Read the thread title. The title implies the OP is looking to get a profession-wide defense stripped from the profession when his complaint actually lies with a single trait. It's just an inaccurate title. > > I'm fully aware what the thread is about and what the trait is. It's not that strong of a trait. It's a predictable two second evasion; plan fights accordingly. > > The title which is: A Class With a kitten Tonne of Evades, Ports, and Stealth Should NOT Get a Passive Defense It’s pretty clear this is only about instant reflexes, but wait here’s the last part of the original post: as long as instant reflexes is in the game thief will always be the most forgiving class... So yeah, this is literally just about the trait and you’re wrong. Mistakes happen, sometimes you read things wrong, happens to everyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MUDse.7623 Posted May 22, 2018 Share Posted May 22, 2018 > @"Inoki.6048" said: > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > @"Inoki.6048" said: > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > @"Inoki.6048" said: > > > > > ANet have already taken measures to stealth application. Deadeyes can feel the "nerf" after the most recent revision. > > > > can you explain how a frequent uninterruptable stealth access that we recieved from the rework is a nerf in stealth application ? > > > > > In GW2 Deadeyes are an example of a profession built around stealth (DJ has become a stealth-only skill). After removing stealth what should they remove next? Dodges? Because AFAIK those are far more OP. A S/D thief is far more annoying than a rifle DE that dies from sneezing at him. Just because you can see a target doesn't mean it's going to be easier to kill. > > > > > > > > you are right dodges are way stronger then stealth and thats why we can have more stealth then we can have evades. a thief with acro and instant reflexes can escape a counterburst alot better then a DE or atleast he doesnt need to react as fast as the auto proc will give him more time, the DE tho now with the uninterruptable stealth on rifle feels a lot less fragile then before patch - not really dies from sneezing as you can better avoid being hit at all with range + stealth. > > > > > > > > > > First define "Frequent uninterrupted stealth". How did you come to this I'm not sure since kneeling no longer provides stealth and most other abilities that do have a 30s CD on average. Stealth on dodge has a CD on the trait from my observation (haven't played the DE much after the patch, did some testing tho). > > > > > > Since Kneel no longer provides stealth DEs are forced to stealth by other means which can't be considered uninterrupted. Leaping through smoke fields can be interrupted, smoke fields themselves are a hint a thief is in the area so just placing a fear mark on one prevents them automatically from re-entering stealth given they have no access to Stab. > > > > stealth on dodge has a 10s cooldown that is visible in your buff bar, if you are kneeling during the dodge it gets removed at the end of the roll = no cd, if you are standing you can tap kneel to reset cooldown. with endurance food you can dodge often for stealth and with vigor even more. i have enough endurance that i can with just silent scope and hidden thief remain permanently in stealth without any animation, without the risk to selfreveal as my stealth stacking has no hits. before patch i had to use either shadow refuge or d/p for smoke+leap both have visible parts for the opponents and can be used to reveal the thief. > > > > > > this I was completely unaware of. > > Before it was possible to stay invis non-stop with animations, but those never concerned me in particular, and also without them with just kneeling and random utility use, which would be the obvious reason they removed stealth from kneeling. > > This would then again feel different to everyone. For me and my play style and generally - I wouldn't say most were aware of the exploitable dodge mechanic - it could be considered, that prior to patching stealth was uninterrupted and now it's less consistent. > > Players will always find ways to exploit a mechanic and the mechanic will then be nerfed, again. well you pay with endurance before it was all ini based and with SA that you allways take for stealth builds, you didnt lose much ini for it so it was free now it has a cost. but if you are willing to pay it :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadowcat.2680 Posted May 22, 2018 Share Posted May 22, 2018 > @"apharma.3741" said: > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > Thread title is a bit misleading as Instant Reflexes is not a passive defense thieves have just so (as in it's not a class mechanic guaranteed to be on every thief build like Distortion for mesmers). Acrobatics is also weaker than it used to be after nerfs to it in March, so there are probably less thieves running Instant Reflexes. > > > > > > > > > > > > As to fighting something running the trait, it's a two second evade on a forty second cooldown and is not even close to being one of the more notable evades in the game when comparing evade duration to the cooldown of the trait or skill. > > > > > > > > > > The issue is the auto proc save me aspect not that they have a skill that they can use to defend themselves. Last I checked distortion still requires you to actually press that button at the right time. If you had mentioned mental defence maybe that would have had merit but it seems you missed the point. That instant reflexes is on a 40s CD is very low for an auto proc, especially one as strong as 2s evasion. > > > > > > > > No, you missed my point: the only comparison I made between Instant Reflexes and Distortion was to illustrate that Instant Reflexes is not a defense inherent to all thieves regardless of build. I could've named any defensive profession mechanic, such as shroud for necromancer, and made the same point about the inaccuracy of the thread's title. > > > > > > > > The other point I made was about fighting something running the trait: a two second evasion on a forty second cooldown is going to be a small percentage of the evasion a thief does during a fight. The strength of the profession has never been in this single trait and a number of thief builds don't even run it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You’re confusing auto proc traited defences with base defences of classes, distortion, shroud, blinds, stealth, evades on weapon skills are these. This thread is about the trained optional defence instant reflex essentially saving the thief halfway through a counter burst saving them and giving them 2s to run when they will be able to outrun and try again in 40s vs most classes. > > > > I'm not confusing anything. Read the thread title. The title implies the OP is looking to get a profession-wide defense stripped from the profession when his complaint actually lies with a single trait. It's just an inaccurate title. > > > > I'm fully aware what the thread is about and what the trait is. It's not that strong of a trait. It's a predictable two second evasion; plan fights accordingly. > > > > > > The title which is: > > A Class With a kitten Tonne of Evades, Ports, and Stealth Should NOT Get a Passive Defense > > It’s pretty clear this is only about instant reflexes, but wait here’s the last part of the original post: > > as long as instant reflexes is in the game thief will always be the most forgiving class... > > So yeah, this is literally just about the trait and you’re wrong. Mistakes happen, sometimes you read things wrong, happens to everyone. Let me see if I can spell this out for you. The title does not in any way specify Instant Reflexes. It references a passive defense and makes the claim the profession in question should not get that passive defense (literally word for word what the title says). The profession in fact does not have that passive defense unless the thief is traited in a certain way. The OP's wish is already granted for the majority of the ways a thief could choose to trait itself. Again, I was just pointing out the title's inaccuracy. Instant Reflexes is fine. If Anet chooses to bring the cooldown extensions to the passive traits to WvW and gives Instant Reflexes its ninety second PvP cooldown along with all the other traits, it'd still be fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apharma.3741 Posted May 22, 2018 Share Posted May 22, 2018 > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > > Thread title is a bit misleading as Instant Reflexes is not a passive defense thieves have just so (as in it's not a class mechanic guaranteed to be on every thief build like Distortion for mesmers). Acrobatics is also weaker than it used to be after nerfs to it in March, so there are probably less thieves running Instant Reflexes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As to fighting something running the trait, it's a two second evade on a forty second cooldown and is not even close to being one of the more notable evades in the game when comparing evade duration to the cooldown of the trait or skill. > > > > > > > > > > > > The issue is the auto proc save me aspect not that they have a skill that they can use to defend themselves. Last I checked distortion still requires you to actually press that button at the right time. If you had mentioned mental defence maybe that would have had merit but it seems you missed the point. That instant reflexes is on a 40s CD is very low for an auto proc, especially one as strong as 2s evasion. > > > > > > > > > > No, you missed my point: the only comparison I made between Instant Reflexes and Distortion was to illustrate that Instant Reflexes is not a defense inherent to all thieves regardless of build. I could've named any defensive profession mechanic, such as shroud for necromancer, and made the same point about the inaccuracy of the thread's title. > > > > > > > > > > The other point I made was about fighting something running the trait: a two second evasion on a forty second cooldown is going to be a small percentage of the evasion a thief does during a fight. The strength of the profession has never been in this single trait and a number of thief builds don't even run it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You’re confusing auto proc traited defences with base defences of classes, distortion, shroud, blinds, stealth, evades on weapon skills are these. This thread is about the trained optional defence instant reflex essentially saving the thief halfway through a counter burst saving them and giving them 2s to run when they will be able to outrun and try again in 40s vs most classes. > > > > > > I'm not confusing anything. Read the thread title. The title implies the OP is looking to get a profession-wide defense stripped from the profession when his complaint actually lies with a single trait. It's just an inaccurate title. > > > > > > I'm fully aware what the thread is about and what the trait is. It's not that strong of a trait. It's a predictable two second evasion; plan fights accordingly. > > > > > > > > > > The title which is: > > > > A Class With a kitten Tonne of Evades, Ports, and Stealth Should NOT Get a Passive Defense > > > > It’s pretty clear this is only about instant reflexes, but wait here’s the last part of the original post: > > > > as long as instant reflexes is in the game thief will always be the most forgiving class... > > > > So yeah, this is literally just about the trait and you’re wrong. Mistakes happen, sometimes you read things wrong, happens to everyone. > > Let me see if I can spell this out for you. The title does not in any way specify Instant Reflexes. It references a passive defense and makes the claim the profession in question should not get that passive defense (literally word for word what the title says). The profession in fact does not have that passive defense unless the thief is traited in a certain way. The OP's wish is already granted for the majority of the ways a thief could choose to trait itself. Again, I was just pointing out the title's inaccuracy. > > Instant Reflexes is fine. If Anet chooses to bring the cooldown extensions to the passive traits to WvW and gives Instant Reflexes its ninety second PvP cooldown along with all the other traits, it'd still be fine. > > > > No class has a passive defence as standard they all have to trait it or are you really this bad at game knowledge? OP thinks thief with a lot of active defences should not get a passive proc type. I personally think no class should have anything that passively activates with no user interaction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadowcat.2680 Posted May 22, 2018 Share Posted May 22, 2018 > @"apharma.3741" said: > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > > > Thread title is a bit misleading as Instant Reflexes is not a passive defense thieves have just so (as in it's not a class mechanic guaranteed to be on every thief build like Distortion for mesmers). Acrobatics is also weaker than it used to be after nerfs to it in March, so there are probably less thieves running Instant Reflexes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As to fighting something running the trait, it's a two second evade on a forty second cooldown and is not even close to being one of the more notable evades in the game when comparing evade duration to the cooldown of the trait or skill. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The issue is the auto proc save me aspect not that they have a skill that they can use to defend themselves. Last I checked distortion still requires you to actually press that button at the right time. If you had mentioned mental defence maybe that would have had merit but it seems you missed the point. That instant reflexes is on a 40s CD is very low for an auto proc, especially one as strong as 2s evasion. > > > > > > > > > > > > No, you missed my point: the only comparison I made between Instant Reflexes and Distortion was to illustrate that Instant Reflexes is not a defense inherent to all thieves regardless of build. I could've named any defensive profession mechanic, such as shroud for necromancer, and made the same point about the inaccuracy of the thread's title. > > > > > > > > > > > > The other point I made was about fighting something running the trait: a two second evasion on a forty second cooldown is going to be a small percentage of the evasion a thief does during a fight. The strength of the profession has never been in this single trait and a number of thief builds don't even run it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You’re confusing auto proc traited defences with base defences of classes, distortion, shroud, blinds, stealth, evades on weapon skills are these. This thread is about the trained optional defence instant reflex essentially saving the thief halfway through a counter burst saving them and giving them 2s to run when they will be able to outrun and try again in 40s vs most classes. > > > > > > > > I'm not confusing anything. Read the thread title. The title implies the OP is looking to get a profession-wide defense stripped from the profession when his complaint actually lies with a single trait. It's just an inaccurate title. > > > > > > > > I'm fully aware what the thread is about and what the trait is. It's not that strong of a trait. It's a predictable two second evasion; plan fights accordingly. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The title which is: > > > > > > A Class With a kitten Tonne of Evades, Ports, and Stealth Should NOT Get a Passive Defense > > > > > > It’s pretty clear this is only about instant reflexes, but wait here’s the last part of the original post: > > > > > > as long as instant reflexes is in the game thief will always be the most forgiving class... > > > > > > So yeah, this is literally just about the trait and you’re wrong. Mistakes happen, sometimes you read things wrong, happens to everyone. > > > > Let me see if I can spell this out for you. The title does not in any way specify Instant Reflexes. It references a passive defense and makes the claim the profession in question should not get that passive defense (literally word for word what the title says). The profession in fact does not have that passive defense unless the thief is traited in a certain way. The OP's wish is already granted for the majority of the ways a thief could choose to trait itself. Again, I was just pointing out the title's inaccuracy. > > > > Instant Reflexes is fine. If Anet chooses to bring the cooldown extensions to the passive traits to WvW and gives Instant Reflexes its ninety second PvP cooldown along with all the other traits, it'd still be fine. > > > > > > > > > > No class has a passive defence as standard they all have to trait it or are you really this bad at game knowledge? > > OP thinks thief with a lot of active defences should not get a passive proc type. I personally think no class should have anything that passively activates with no user interaction. That it is not standard to thief has been my point all along. Thank you for finally letting something sink in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apharma.3741 Posted May 22, 2018 Share Posted May 22, 2018 > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > > > > Thread title is a bit misleading as Instant Reflexes is not a passive defense thieves have just so (as in it's not a class mechanic guaranteed to be on every thief build like Distortion for mesmers). Acrobatics is also weaker than it used to be after nerfs to it in March, so there are probably less thieves running Instant Reflexes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As to fighting something running the trait, it's a two second evade on a forty second cooldown and is not even close to being one of the more notable evades in the game when comparing evade duration to the cooldown of the trait or skill. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The issue is the auto proc save me aspect not that they have a skill that they can use to defend themselves. Last I checked distortion still requires you to actually press that button at the right time. If you had mentioned mental defence maybe that would have had merit but it seems you missed the point. That instant reflexes is on a 40s CD is very low for an auto proc, especially one as strong as 2s evasion. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No, you missed my point: the only comparison I made between Instant Reflexes and Distortion was to illustrate that Instant Reflexes is not a defense inherent to all thieves regardless of build. I could've named any defensive profession mechanic, such as shroud for necromancer, and made the same point about the inaccuracy of the thread's title. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The other point I made was about fighting something running the trait: a two second evasion on a forty second cooldown is going to be a small percentage of the evasion a thief does during a fight. The strength of the profession has never been in this single trait and a number of thief builds don't even run it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You’re confusing auto proc traited defences with base defences of classes, distortion, shroud, blinds, stealth, evades on weapon skills are these. This thread is about the trained optional defence instant reflex essentially saving the thief halfway through a counter burst saving them and giving them 2s to run when they will be able to outrun and try again in 40s vs most classes. > > > > > > > > > > I'm not confusing anything. Read the thread title. The title implies the OP is looking to get a profession-wide defense stripped from the profession when his complaint actually lies with a single trait. It's just an inaccurate title. > > > > > > > > > > I'm fully aware what the thread is about and what the trait is. It's not that strong of a trait. It's a predictable two second evasion; plan fights accordingly. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The title which is: > > > > > > > > A Class With a kitten Tonne of Evades, Ports, and Stealth Should NOT Get a Passive Defense > > > > > > > > It’s pretty clear this is only about instant reflexes, but wait here’s the last part of the original post: > > > > > > > > as long as instant reflexes is in the game thief will always be the most forgiving class... > > > > > > > > So yeah, this is literally just about the trait and you’re wrong. Mistakes happen, sometimes you read things wrong, happens to everyone. > > > > > > Let me see if I can spell this out for you. The title does not in any way specify Instant Reflexes. It references a passive defense and makes the claim the profession in question should not get that passive defense (literally word for word what the title says). The profession in fact does not have that passive defense unless the thief is traited in a certain way. The OP's wish is already granted for the majority of the ways a thief could choose to trait itself. Again, I was just pointing out the title's inaccuracy. > > > > > > Instant Reflexes is fine. If Anet chooses to bring the cooldown extensions to the passive traits to WvW and gives Instant Reflexes its ninety second PvP cooldown along with all the other traits, it'd still be fine. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No class has a passive defence as standard they all have to trait it or are you really this bad at game knowledge? > > > > OP thinks thief with a lot of active defences should not get a passive proc type. I personally think no class should have anything that passively activates with no user interaction. > > That it is not standard to thief has been my point all along. Thank you for finally letting something sink in. Which has no bearing on the conversation because no one said otherwise or insinuated it was default, so you had no point to begin with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadowcat.2680 Posted May 22, 2018 Share Posted May 22, 2018 > @"apharma.3741" said: > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > > > > > Thread title is a bit misleading as Instant Reflexes is not a passive defense thieves have just so (as in it's not a class mechanic guaranteed to be on every thief build like Distortion for mesmers). Acrobatics is also weaker than it used to be after nerfs to it in March, so there are probably less thieves running Instant Reflexes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As to fighting something running the trait, it's a two second evade on a forty second cooldown and is not even close to being one of the more notable evades in the game when comparing evade duration to the cooldown of the trait or skill. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The issue is the auto proc save me aspect not that they have a skill that they can use to defend themselves. Last I checked distortion still requires you to actually press that button at the right time. If you had mentioned mental defence maybe that would have had merit but it seems you missed the point. That instant reflexes is on a 40s CD is very low for an auto proc, especially one as strong as 2s evasion. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No, you missed my point: the only comparison I made between Instant Reflexes and Distortion was to illustrate that Instant Reflexes is not a defense inherent to all thieves regardless of build. I could've named any defensive profession mechanic, such as shroud for necromancer, and made the same point about the inaccuracy of the thread's title. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The other point I made was about fighting something running the trait: a two second evasion on a forty second cooldown is going to be a small percentage of the evasion a thief does during a fight. The strength of the profession has never been in this single trait and a number of thief builds don't even run it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You’re confusing auto proc traited defences with base defences of classes, distortion, shroud, blinds, stealth, evades on weapon skills are these. This thread is about the trained optional defence instant reflex essentially saving the thief halfway through a counter burst saving them and giving them 2s to run when they will be able to outrun and try again in 40s vs most classes. > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm not confusing anything. Read the thread title. The title implies the OP is looking to get a profession-wide defense stripped from the profession when his complaint actually lies with a single trait. It's just an inaccurate title. > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm fully aware what the thread is about and what the trait is. It's not that strong of a trait. It's a predictable two second evasion; plan fights accordingly. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The title which is: > > > > > > > > > > A Class With a kitten Tonne of Evades, Ports, and Stealth Should NOT Get a Passive Defense > > > > > > > > > > It’s pretty clear this is only about instant reflexes, but wait here’s the last part of the original post: > > > > > > > > > > as long as instant reflexes is in the game thief will always be the most forgiving class... > > > > > > > > > > So yeah, this is literally just about the trait and you’re wrong. Mistakes happen, sometimes you read things wrong, happens to everyone. > > > > > > > > Let me see if I can spell this out for you. The title does not in any way specify Instant Reflexes. It references a passive defense and makes the claim the profession in question should not get that passive defense (literally word for word what the title says). The profession in fact does not have that passive defense unless the thief is traited in a certain way. The OP's wish is already granted for the majority of the ways a thief could choose to trait itself. Again, I was just pointing out the title's inaccuracy. > > > > > > > > Instant Reflexes is fine. If Anet chooses to bring the cooldown extensions to the passive traits to WvW and gives Instant Reflexes its ninety second PvP cooldown along with all the other traits, it'd still be fine. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No class has a passive defence as standard they all have to trait it or are you really this bad at game knowledge? > > > > > > OP thinks thief with a lot of active defences should not get a passive proc type. I personally think no class should have anything that passively activates with no user interaction. > > > > That it is not standard to thief has been my point all along. Thank you for finally letting something sink in. > > Which has no bearing on the conversation because no one said otherwise or insinuated it was default, so you had no point to begin with. Right. It was a single sentence in my initial post in this thread pointing out the inaccuracy of the title's wording. It was never an important point in that post, but you've been clinging to that sentence like a tick on a dog. I'll sum up the rest of the post for you: the two second evade of Instant Reflexes on a forty second cooldown does not have that great of an impact on a fight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apharma.3741 Posted May 22, 2018 Share Posted May 22, 2018 > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > > > > > > Thread title is a bit misleading as Instant Reflexes is not a passive defense thieves have just so (as in it's not a class mechanic guaranteed to be on every thief build like Distortion for mesmers). Acrobatics is also weaker than it used to be after nerfs to it in March, so there are probably less thieves running Instant Reflexes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As to fighting something running the trait, it's a two second evade on a forty second cooldown and is not even close to being one of the more notable evades in the game when comparing evade duration to the cooldown of the trait or skill. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The issue is the auto proc save me aspect not that they have a skill that they can use to defend themselves. Last I checked distortion still requires you to actually press that button at the right time. If you had mentioned mental defence maybe that would have had merit but it seems you missed the point. That instant reflexes is on a 40s CD is very low for an auto proc, especially one as strong as 2s evasion. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No, you missed my point: the only comparison I made between Instant Reflexes and Distortion was to illustrate that Instant Reflexes is not a defense inherent to all thieves regardless of build. I could've named any defensive profession mechanic, such as shroud for necromancer, and made the same point about the inaccuracy of the thread's title. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The other point I made was about fighting something running the trait: a two second evasion on a forty second cooldown is going to be a small percentage of the evasion a thief does during a fight. The strength of the profession has never been in this single trait and a number of thief builds don't even run it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You’re confusing auto proc traited defences with base defences of classes, distortion, shroud, blinds, stealth, evades on weapon skills are these. This thread is about the trained optional defence instant reflex essentially saving the thief halfway through a counter burst saving them and giving them 2s to run when they will be able to outrun and try again in 40s vs most classes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm not confusing anything. Read the thread title. The title implies the OP is looking to get a profession-wide defense stripped from the profession when his complaint actually lies with a single trait. It's just an inaccurate title. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm fully aware what the thread is about and what the trait is. It's not that strong of a trait. It's a predictable two second evasion; plan fights accordingly. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The title which is: > > > > > > > > > > > > A Class With a kitten Tonne of Evades, Ports, and Stealth Should NOT Get a Passive Defense > > > > > > > > > > > > It’s pretty clear this is only about instant reflexes, but wait here’s the last part of the original post: > > > > > > > > > > > > as long as instant reflexes is in the game thief will always be the most forgiving class... > > > > > > > > > > > > So yeah, this is literally just about the trait and you’re wrong. Mistakes happen, sometimes you read things wrong, happens to everyone. > > > > > > > > > > Let me see if I can spell this out for you. The title does not in any way specify Instant Reflexes. It references a passive defense and makes the claim the profession in question should not get that passive defense (literally word for word what the title says). The profession in fact does not have that passive defense unless the thief is traited in a certain way. The OP's wish is already granted for the majority of the ways a thief could choose to trait itself. Again, I was just pointing out the title's inaccuracy. > > > > > > > > > > Instant Reflexes is fine. If Anet chooses to bring the cooldown extensions to the passive traits to WvW and gives Instant Reflexes its ninety second PvP cooldown along with all the other traits, it'd still be fine. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No class has a passive defence as standard they all have to trait it or are you really this bad at game knowledge? > > > > > > > > OP thinks thief with a lot of active defences should not get a passive proc type. I personally think no class should have anything that passively activates with no user interaction. > > > > > > That it is not standard to thief has been my point all along. Thank you for finally letting something sink in. > > > > Which has no bearing on the conversation because no one said otherwise or insinuated it was default, so you had no point to begin with. > > Right. It was a single sentence in my initial post in this thread pointing out the inaccuracy of the title's wording. It was never an important point in that post, but you've been clinging to that sentence like a tick on a dog. > > I'll sum up the rest of the post for you: a two second evade on a forty second cooldown does not have that great of an impact on a fight. > > You’re clueless then, 2s evade will negate an entire counter burst giving the class with such high mobility time to teleport away completely to safety. It’s not about how it’s not that much as a part of its spammable evade uptime it’s that it activates without any user interaction saving the person when they have misplayed or been outplayed. The same is true of a lot of defensive auto procs. 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