A Class With a Sh!t Tonne of Evades, Ports, and Stealth Should NOT Get a Passive Defense

[BlueMelody.6398]

> @"Inoki.6048" said:

> > @"X T D.6458" said:

> > Stealth needs to be removed from the game.

>

> Removing a core mechanic because some find it hard to counter (L2P issue) is not a solution and should never happen. Stealth is present in most games, just as camouflage in real life. The only thing it may need is a rework.

 

Stealth is broken. If not removed, it needs to be nerfed in the way it functions, or its availability/duration significantly reduced

 

> In GW2 Deadeyes are an example of a profession built around stealth (DJ has become a stealth-only skill). After removing stealth what should they remove next? Dodges?

 

All classes have dodges, only a few have stealth. Also dodging generally does not cause the attacker to lose target, and those with good reflexes (and ping) can time an attack based on dodge visuals.

 

> Just because you can see a target doesn't mean it's going to be easier to kill.

 

Yes, yes it does. I can neither target nor readily attack what i cannot see (I have virtually no aoe and zero ranged aoe). I can harm a dodging target by tracking them and staying as close as possible. I cannot track an invisible target.

 

[SoulSin.5682]

> @"BlueMelody.6398" said:

> > @"Inoki.6048" said:

> > > @"X T D.6458" said:

> > > Stealth needs to be removed from the game.

> >

> > Removing a core mechanic because some find it hard to counter (L2P issue) is not a solution and should never happen. Stealth is present in most games, just as camouflage in real life. The only thing it may need is a rework.

>

> Stealth is broken. If not removed, it needs to be nerfed in the way it functions, or its availability/duration significantly reduced

>

> > In GW2 Deadeyes are an example of a profession built around stealth (DJ has become a stealth-only skill). After removing stealth what should they remove next? Dodges?

>

> All classes have dodges, only a few have stealth. Also dodging generally does not cause the attacker to lose target, and those with good reflexes (and ping) can time an attack based on dodge visuals.

>

> > Just because you can see a target doesn't mean it's going to be easier to kill.

>

> Yes, yes it does. I can neither target nor readily attack what i cannot see (I have virtually no aoe and zero ranged aoe). I can harm a dodging target by tracking them and staying as close as possible. I cannot track an invisible target.

>

 

Stealth already got nerfed multiple times over the years. Sorry but its your own damn fault if you cant deal with temporary invisible enemy.

 

Yes you can damage targets you can't see. You can also track to a certain degree targets you can't see.

If your build doesn't have any sort of cleave or AoE skill, your build is simply bad, or at least not a build to walk alone in the middle of wvw. Bring a friend with you.

 

Also, many classes have skills/traits that cause revealed nowadays. If Stealth is a problem for you, you should carry it.

[BlueMelody.6398]

> @"SoulSin.5682" said:

> > @"BlueMelody.6398" said:

> > > @"Inoki.6048" said:

> > > > @"X T D.6458" said:

> > > > Stealth needs to be removed from the game.

> > >

> > > Removing a core mechanic because some find it hard to counter (L2P issue) is not a solution and should never happen. Stealth is present in most games, just as camouflage in real life. The only thing it may need is a rework.

> >

> > Stealth is broken. If not removed, it needs to be nerfed in the way it functions, or its availability/duration significantly reduced

> >

> > > In GW2 Deadeyes are an example of a profession built around stealth (DJ has become a stealth-only skill). After removing stealth what should they remove next? Dodges?

> >

> > All classes have dodges, only a few have stealth. Also dodging generally does not cause the attacker to lose target, and those with good reflexes (and ping) can time an attack based on dodge visuals.

> >

> > > Just because you can see a target doesn't mean it's going to be easier to kill.

> >

> > Yes, yes it does. I can neither target nor readily attack what i cannot see (I have virtually no aoe and zero ranged aoe). I can harm a dodging target by tracking them and staying as close as possible. I cannot track an invisible target.

> >

>

> Stealth already got nerfed multiple times over the years. Sorry but its your own kitten fault if you cant deal with temporary invisible enemy.

>

> Yes you can damage targets you can't see. You can also track to a certain degree targets you can't see.

 

Please explain how to track an invisible target.

A smoke field or shadow refuge appearing 1200 units off to the side after the thief has already disappeared does me zero good, he'll be long gone by the time I get there. Audio cues are useless for a hearing-impaired person like me.

 

> If your build doesn't have any sort of cleave or AoE skill, your build is simply bad, or at least not a build to walk alone in the middle of wvw. Bring a friend with you.

 

Hammer/gs warrior, zero ranged aoe, melee cleave does no good after they dodge and disappear.

>

> Also, many classes have skills/traits that cause revealed nowadays. If Stealth is a problem for you, you should carry it.

 

Only On My Mark has revealed, and no way I'm carrying that instead of a far more useful utility.

 

 

[Brujeria.7536]

100% agree with OP. Stealth has no counterplay, dodges for years have no counterplay, shadowsteps and overall mobility is way overtuned. Now they also slap the biggest raw damage and duelling power onto this class. All this while there is no cooldown on skills and initiative is not even affected by chill, like it should be...

 

After all balance in both PvP and WvW is HEAVILY centered around mobility. PvP being a node based game and WvW providing quick auto regen if you get OOC, which has no counterplay for thief with all of this stealth and mobility.

 

Overall thief balance at the current state is the worst across all games i have played. Its really hard to believe that this game is out for over 5 years and these obvious and crucial overpowered mechanics are still not even being touched, yet recognized as problems. Instead they add stealth to dodge to further increase the powercreep.

 

No counterplay to stealth (apart from some very few and weirdly placed skills)

No counterplay to dodgespam

No counterplay or ways to prevent mobility and disengage

No Cooldowns or counterplay to initiative gain

Massively overtuned damage.

[Arioch.4810]

Interesting take on balance and class in general.

I play a couple of toons in different game modes, while thief is fun if im looking at some PvP/WvW I'm much more likely to play my Spellbreaker, Scourge or Mirage.

While thief has some very, very good options for 1v1 combat, in game modes where kills are a secondary game objective at best, his impact is less than stellar against a group that can handle his mobility or completely migitate that dmg.

Heck, in the good old days (of this monday xD) i was pretty much ignoring thiefs trying to +1 me on a node in PvP :)

[MuscleBobBuffPants.1406]

> @"Brujeria.7536" said:

> 100% agree with OP. Stealth has no counterplay, dodges for years have no counterplay, shadowsteps and overall mobility is way overtuned. Now they also slap the biggest raw damage and duelling power onto this class. All this while there is no cooldown on skills and initiative is not even affected by chill, like it should be...

>

> After all balance in both PvP and WvW is HEAVILY centered around mobility. PvP being a node based game and WvW providing quick auto regen if you get OOC, which has no counterplay for thief with all of this stealth and mobility.

>

> Overall thief balance at the current state is the worst across all games i have played. Its really hard to believe that this game is out for over 5 years and these obvious and crucial overpowered mechanics are still not even being touched, yet recognized as problems. Instead they add stealth to dodge to further increase the powercreep.

>

> No counterplay to stealth (apart from some very few and weirdly placed skills)

> No counterplay to dodgespam

> No counterplay or ways to prevent mobility and disengage

> No Cooldowns or counterplay to initiative gain

> Massively overtuned damage.

 

As someone who plays a thief and plays against thieves with other classes, I always find it to be boring. There is no risk reward, no counterplay. When I played Spy in Team Fortress 2, you always felt very fragile but powerful. A true glass cannon. And if you engaged in a fight, you had to fight it out, no running away. Team Fortress 2 is one of the few games that has done stealth in a good way, strong but balanced. Fun for the stealther and the one fighting against the stealther.

[SoulSin.5682]

> @"BlueMelody.6398" said:

> Please explain how to track an invisible target.

 

 

Thiefs use bursts of Steal that last 2 to 3 seconds (4 if traited).

 

Depending on where it uses it, there is only one route he will use. The shortest one to your character back. (if using dagger).

One pretty basic tip is to quickly turn around and run, count 2 secs and roll.

 

or not even that, with a GS in hand you can use skills 3# and 5# to easily make safe distance.

Spell breaker can also activate the Counter F2 skill as well. Its extremaly hard to kill a Spell Breaker with Thief nowadays.

 

Killing the thief is as easy as Hammer F1 , Skill 4#, Skill 5#, auto attack. Most thiefs only carry one stun break. Change to GS whe nhe is on stealth and Kite.

Also dont worry about damage, warrior wont die to thief bursts even if you are on full berserkers (witch you absolutely SHOULDN'T BE, WvW is no place for glass cannons)

 

Pistol and Rifle have obvious animations and are not a problem to roll.

 

>> @"BlueMelody.6398" said:

> A smoke field or shadow refuge appearing 1200 units off to the side after the thief has already disappeared does me zero good, he'll be long gone by the time I get there. >Audio cues are useless for a hearing-impaired person like me.

 

If he is running away from you, why is stealth broken?

 

 

>> @"BlueMelody.6398" said:

> Hammer/gs warrior, zero ranged aoe, melee cleave does no good after they dodge and disappear.

 

 

Of course it does, not even Thiefs have infinite stamina. And invisible players can still be damaged.

 

 

>> @"BlueMelody.6398" said:

> Only On My Mark has revealed, and no way I'm carrying that instead of a far more useful utility.

 

 

Endure pain, Off-hand Shield, GS 3# and 5#, "On my Mark", Roll, Full Counter, "Lesser Endure Pain", Highest HP Pool of the Game, "Magebane Thether".

 

 

Naturally I am not saying that you can chase it off or stop getting ganked since those are Thiefs unique areas. But it takes a lot for a thief to kill a Warrior, even when using bersekers.

 

 

> @"Brujeria.7536" said:

> 100% agree with OP. Stealth has no counterplay, dodges for years have no counterplay, shadowsteps and overall mobility is way overtuned. Now they also slap the biggest raw damage and duelling power onto this class. All this while there is no cooldown on skills and initiative is not even affected by chill, like it should be...

 

 

Drama

 

> @"Brujeria.7536" said:

> After all balance in both PvP and WvW is HEAVILY centered around mobility. PvP being a node based game and WvW providing quick auto regen if you get OOC, which has no counterplay for thief with all of this stealth and mobility.

 

 

Thief isn't part of the current meta of WvW. Which is based on area support, AoE damage and moving in organized groups.

 

SPvP they are, just barely, hanging with S/D builds. Still a Mesmer does everything they do, if not better.

 

> @"Brujeria.7536" said:

> Overall thief balance at the current state is the worst across all games i have played. Its really hard to believe that this game is out for over 5 years and these obvious and crucial overpowered mechanics are still not even being touched, yet recognized as problems. Instead they add stealth to dodge to further increase the powercreep.

 

 

Do you even read patch notes?

 

> @"Brujeria.7536" said:

> No counterplay to stealth (apart from some very few and weirdly placed skills)

 

Weird placed? Ok.....

 

> @"Brujeria.7536" said:

> No counterplay to dodgespam

 

 

AoE spam. Taunt. Stuns.

Or better, let him waste his rolls.

 

> @"Brujeria.7536" said:

> No counterplay or ways to prevent mobility and disengage

 

Again, he is running away from you. Why is Thief OP if he has to run away?

 

Scourge and Mesmer will flat eat you alive on spot. Yet you raise a "Nerf Thiefs" flag.

 

> @"Brujeria.7536" said:

> No Cooldowns or counterplay to initiative gain

 

 

Please, any class spam more skills than Thief nowadays. Most of a Power Thief DPS cames from Auto Attack.

 

> @"Brujeria.7536" said:

> Massively overtuned damage.

 

 

[What?](https://snowcrows.com/benchmarks/ "What?")

 

 

[Solori.6025]

> @"Brujeria.7536" said:

> 100% agree with OP. Stealth has no counterplay, dodges for years have no counterplay, shadowsteps and overall mobility is way overtuned. Now they also slap the biggest raw damage and duelling power onto this class. All this while there is no cooldown on skills and initiative is not even affected by chill, like it should be...

>

> After all balance in both PvP and WvW is HEAVILY centered around mobility. PvP being a node based game and WvW providing quick auto regen if you get OOC, which has no counterplay for thief with all of this stealth and mobility.

>

> Overall thief balance at the current state is the worst across all games i have played. Its really hard to believe that this game is out for over 5 years and these obvious and crucial overpowered mechanics are still not even being touched, yet recognized as problems. Instead they add stealth to dodge to further increase the powercreep.

>

> No counterplay to stealth (apart from some very few and weirdly placed skills)

> No counterplay to dodgespam

> No counterplay or ways to prevent mobility and disengage

> No Cooldowns or counterplay to initiative gain

> Massively overtuned damage.

 

According to a particular thief player (whom also stated this as a reason thief stealth is Ok), Initiative is a cooldown, so you have to wait for that.

 

[DeceiverX.8361]

And this is why passive immunities are stupid.

 

I agree with the OP as a thief player - IR is a stupid trait that lets seriously trash thieves win more than they should.

 

But the same is said about every passive defense and auto-reflect in the game and powercreep has gotten to the point where builds are pretty much dependent on running these effects.

 

I remember when one-shotting someone took three trait lines and a full bar of utilities dedicated to offense to pull off and also carried some pretty big tells.

[BlueMelody.6398]

> @"SoulSin.5682" said:

> > @"BlueMelody.6398" said:

> > Please explain how to track an invisible target.

>

>

> Thiefs use bursts of Steal that last 2 to 3 seconds (4 if traited).

>

> Depending on where it uses it, there is only one route he will use. The shortest one to your character back. (if using dagger).

> One pretty basic tip is to quickly turn around and run, count 2 secs and roll.

>

> or not even that, with a GS in hand you can use skills 3# and 5# to easily make safe distance.

> Spell breaker can also activate the Counter F2 skill as well. Its extremaly hard to kill a Spell Breaker with Thief nowadays.

 

None of this helps you track and kill a thief if you don't know which direction he dodged in while stealthed. Which you don't.

>

> Killing the thief is as easy as Hammer F1 , Skill 4#, Skill 5#, auto attack. Most thiefs only carry one stun break. Change to GS whe nhe is on stealth and Kite.

> Also dont worry about damage, warrior wont die to thief bursts even if you are on full berserkers (witch you absolutely SHOULDN'T BE, WvW is no place for glass cannons)

 

Doing all these attacks at a place where the thief isn't does zero damage. You're avoiding my major point -- if you don't know where the thief is, flailing wildly is unlikely to hurt him.

 

>

> Pistol and Rifle have obvious animations and are not a problem to roll.

 

Can't see the animations when delivered from stealth.

>

> >> @"BlueMelody.6398" said:

> > A smoke field or shadow refuge appearing 1200 units off to the side after the thief has already disappeared does me zero good, he'll be long gone by the time I get there. >Audio cues are useless for a hearing-impaired person like me.

>

> If he is running away from you, why is stealth broken?

 

Being able to reset a fight at will and restart it again at his discretion, as often as he wants -- yes, that is *broken*.

>

>

> >> @"BlueMelody.6398" said:

> > Hammer/gs warrior, zero ranged aoe, melee cleave does no good after they dodge and disappear.

>

>

> Of course it does, not even Thiefs have infinite stamina. And invisible players can still be damaged.

 

Again, flailing with any or all of your melee weapon skills after they stealth and dodge in some random direction is unlikely to do any damage to them.

 

>

>

> >> @"BlueMelody.6398" said:

> > Only On My Mark has revealed, and no way I'm carrying that instead of a far more useful utility.

>

>

> Endure pain, Off-hand Shield, GS 3# and 5#, "On my Mark", Roll, Full Counter, "Lesser Endure Pain", Highest HP Pool of the Game, "Magebane Thether".

>

>

> Naturally I am not saying that you can chase it off or stop getting ganked since those are Thiefs unique areas. But it takes a lot for a thief to kill a Warrior, even when using bersekers.

 

Again, this isn't about how often the thief manages to kill me, it's about how often I can kill him, which is basically 0% of the time. That means that thanks to stealth, any thief with any experience at all can attack risk-free without fear of dying unless they completely screw up. *That* is broken.

 

 

 

[Specialka.7290]

Lol, ppl asking to nerf Thief while being one of the weakest class currently in WvW and in Pvp. I guess most ppl here play Scourge/Mesmers/Guardian and Warrior.

 

Thief is currently of the hardest class to play well.

 

And I thought at first, that this thread would be about mesmers, go figure.

[Aeolus.3615]

> @"DeceiverX.8361" said:

> And this is why passive immunities are stupid.

>

> I agree with the OP as a thief player - IR is a stupid trait that lets seriously trash thieves win more than they should.

>

> But the same is said about every passive defense and auto-reflect in the game and powercreep has gotten to the point where builds are pretty much dependent on running these effects.

>

> I remember when one-shotting someone took three trait lines and a full bar of utilities dedicated to offense to pull off and also carried some pretty big tells.

 

Yeah but ANet added a ton os aoe spam, and passive are ment to dissimulate the bad skill design :P

 

They cant reduce passives cause of the aoe they are adding, wich u guys should expect way more next expantion and way more passives as well.

[reddie.5861]

> @"Rezzet.3614" said:

> eh thief's passive defense is ok, thief's problem is shortbow 5+ spam, Steal's range , sword's 2 spam, super speed on stealth(on a perma stealth class) thief basically has infinite mobility as long they got initiative , pair that with the easy access to stealth and yeah it becomes a problem amplified once you pair it with Daredevil triple avade+ evade dash

 

what super speed? or did u just ram a super nice build together that in reality cant even kill 1 single npc?

[Tyyphoon.5301]

> @"BlueMelody.6398" said:

> Again, this isn't about how often the thief manages to kill me, _it's about how often I can kill him, which is basically 0% of the time_.

>

>

>

 

Lol! Seriously? This made my day.

 

> @"DragonSlayer.1087" said:

> Nope. The thief is fine. In fact it needs to be buffed. Mesmers are unkillable. Warriors are unkillable.

 

QFT. Need to bring back old-style thieving and not this DE ranged-sniper RP nonsense. Please give OH sword so we can finally RP as S/S Gannicus rage-mode!

 

> @"Specialka.7290" said:

> Lol, ppl asking to nerf Thief while being one of the weakest class currently in WvW and in Pvp. I guess most ppl here play Scourge/Mesmers/Guardian and Warrior.

>

> Thief is currently of the hardest class to play well.

>

> And I thought at first, that this thread would be about mesmers, go figure.

 

QFT. Lets not forget how OP holosmith are.

 

@OP: Here are links to some _actually_ pressing matters:

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/39907/balance-the-scourge-now-not-when-next-expansion-comes/p5

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/41032/are-we-gonna-talk-about-mirage#latest

[SoulSin.5682]

> @"BlueMelody.6398" said:

> None of this helps you track and kill a thief if you don't know which direction he dodged in while stealthed. Which you don't.

 

There is only one direction he can take to deal damage to you. If he is not taking that direction, he is running the same direction that he was already running.

 

Now why thiefs doesnt magically do stunts like activating stealth on one direction and move to another? because stealth in this game doesn't last long enough for that. Save of course, Shadow subterfurge... that you can literally spam hammer skills on it.

 

 

> @"BlueMelody.6398" said:

> Doing all these attacks at a place where the thief isn't does zero damage. You're avoiding my major point -- if you don't know where the thief is, flailing wildly is unlikely to hurt him.

 

And thats why everyone in this forum recognize that you don't know how to fight thieves. Flailing AA wildly on possible thiefs positions are EXACTLY what every players that knows how to fight thiefs do.

And some do it really accurate. Because the thief movement on stealth is, save for running away, predicable.

 

 

> @"BlueMelody.6398" said:

> Can't see the animations when delivered from stealth.

 

Rifle skill applies revelead on cast, draws a big YELLOW GOLDEN line between you an the thief. (and there is a sun over your head to boot), and lasts 0,5 seconds to full cast outside haste. Thats a lot.

Pistol even if used from stealth, the animation of the bullets are still visible. You can easily dodge the bullets and pin point the Thief position with it.

 

 

> @"BlueMelody.6398" said:

> Being able to reset a fight at will and restart it again at his discretion, as often as he wants -- yes, that is *broken*.

 

There is not a single PvP game mode in this game the running and reseting is an advantage.

He is not killing anything, he is not capping anything. He lost.

 

On SPvP thieves can't run at all due to the speed reduction and longer time to reset. I already got chased and killed by necromancers from middle to home and still died either way.

 

 

> @"BlueMelody.6398" said:

> Again, this isn't about how often the thief manages to kill me, it's about how often I can kill him, which is basically 0% of the time. That means that thanks to stealth, any thief with any experience at all can attack risk-free without fear of dying unless they completely screw up. *That* is broken.

 

Thanks for the short version of Thiefs current state of game on PvP. We can't kill even gank/kill a new players with barebones experience on the game, and they still complain that we must run away.

 

There is absolutely nothing to nerf here.

[Specialka.7290]

> @"SoulSin.5682" said:

> > @"BlueMelody.6398" said:

> > None of this helps you track and kill a thief if you don't know which direction he dodged in while stealthed. Which you don't.

>

> There is only one direction he can take to deal damage to you. If he is not taking that direction, he is running the same direction that he was already running.

>

> Now why thiefs doesnt magically do stunts like activating stealth on one direction and move to another? because stealth in this game doesn't last long enough for that. Save of course, Shadow subterfurge... that you can literally spam hammer skills on it.

>

>

> > @"BlueMelody.6398" said:

> > Doing all these attacks at a place where the thief isn't does zero damage. You're avoiding my major point -- if you don't know where the thief is, flailing wildly is unlikely to hurt him.

>

> And thats why everyone in this forum recognize that you don't know how to fight thieves. Flailing AA wildly on possible thiefs positions are EXACTLY what every players that knows how to fight thiefs do.

> And some do it really accurate. Because the thief movement on stealth is, save for running away, predicable.

>

>

> > @"BlueMelody.6398" said:

> > Can't see the animations when delivered from stealth.

>

> Rifle skill applies revelead on cast, draws a big YELLOW GOLDEN line between you an the thief. (and there is a sun over your head to boot), and lasts 0,5 seconds to full cast outside haste. Thats a lot.

> Pistol even if used from stealth, the animation of the bullets are still visible. You can easily dodge the bullets and pin point the Thief position with it.

>

>

> > @"BlueMelody.6398" said:

> > Being able to reset a fight at will and restart it again at his discretion, as often as he wants -- yes, that is *broken*.

>

> There is not a single PvP game mode in this game the running and reseting is an advantage.

> He is not killing anything, he is not capping anything. He lost.

>

> On SPvP thieves can't run at all due to the speed reduction and longer time to reset. I already got chased and killed by necromancers from middle to home and still died either way.

>

>

> > @"BlueMelody.6398" said:

> > Again, this isn't about how often the thief manages to kill me, it's about how often I can kill him, which is basically 0% of the time. That means that thanks to stealth, any thief with any experience at all can attack risk-free without fear of dying unless they completely screw up. *That* is broken.

>

> Thanks for the short version of Thiefs current state of game on PvP. We can't kill even gank/kill a new players with barebones experience on the game, and they still complain that we must run away.

>

> There is absolutely nothing to nerf here.

 

Well, there are some stuff to nerf here, but not on the thief side :open_mouth:

[Pinko.2076]

The OP is correct, but your focus is too narrow. ALL passive procs should not be in this game.

[kash.9213]

If I have a "kitten tonne" of all those things put together into a build I'm not going to hurt you unless your build is unnecessarily bad.

[Nuka Cola.8520]

Perma stealth D/P in full zerker gear (cuz who gives an f about HP when you can afk in stealth until full) 1 shotting is the best thing in this game. You burst him, he ports out, stealth and stays in stealth until full. Comes back with a 13k+ BS with poison and enjoy.

 

#removestealthstacking2018

[Rezzet.3614]

> @"reddie.5861" said:

> > @"Rezzet.3614" said:

> > eh thief's passive defense is ok, thief's problem is shortbow 5+ spam, Steal's range , sword's 2 spam, super speed on stealth(on a perma stealth class) thief basically has infinite mobility as long they got initiative , pair that with the easy access to stealth and yeah it becomes a problem amplified once you pair it with Daredevil triple avade+ evade dash

>

> what super speed? or did u just ram a super nice build together that in reality cant even kill 1 single npc?

 

that would be the case if we all played like the peasant and do not switch traits depending on situations

 

thief has insanely high damage scaling so they dont even need the damage traits for damage other than instant bursting human enemies

believe it or not thief has more options than critical strikes and deadly arts personally i use a grandmaster trait in the crit strike line that gives me 15% life steal on crit you know cuz i actually engage in sustained large scale combat instead of playing hit and run 1 target at a time

 

now lets look at shadow arts: +1s stealth duration , stealth on steal, stealth at 50% hp or fall damage or lose conditions over time while stealthed, +50% move speed while stealthed ,25% damage reduction while stealthed and cant be critted

 

yeah you give up potential burst for 1 v1s but you become perma invisible without needing to spam smoke finisher and such as much

 

so yes Super speed on stealth exists , it wasnt even the focus of my statement anyways , doesnt change the fact thiefs have basically unlimited mobility and stealth , might be irrelevant in zerg fights but broken in most non large scale scenarios

[reddie.5861]

> @"Rezzet.3614" said:

> > @"reddie.5861" said:

> > > @"Rezzet.3614" said:

> > > eh thief's passive defense is ok, thief's problem is shortbow 5+ spam, Steal's range , sword's 2 spam, super speed on stealth(on a perma stealth class) thief basically has infinite mobility as long they got initiative , pair that with the easy access to stealth and yeah it becomes a problem amplified once you pair it with Daredevil triple avade+ evade dash

> >

> > what super speed? or did u just ram a super nice build together that in reality cant even kill 1 single npc?

>

> that would be the case if we all played like the peasant and do not switch traits depending on situations

>

> thief has insanely high damage scaling so they dont even need the damage traits for damage other than instant bursting human enemies

> believe it or not thief has more options than critical strikes and deadly arts personally i use a grandmaster trait in the crit strike line that gives me 15% life steal on crit you know cuz i actually engage in sustained large scale combat instead of playing hit and run 1 target at a time

>

> now lets look at shadow arts: +1s stealth duration , stealth on steal, stealth at 50% hp or fall damage or lose conditions over time while stealthed, +50% move speed while stealthed ,25% damage reduction while stealthed and cant be critted

>

> yeah you give up potential burst for 1 v1s but you become perma invisible without needing to spam smoke finisher and such as much

>

> so yes Super speed on stealth exists , it wasnt even the focus of my statement anyways , doesnt change the fact thiefs have basically unlimited mobility and stealth , might be irrelevant in zerg fights but broken in most non large scale scenarios

 

i advice you to play a thief, i mean i main a thief and i have absolutely no problem killing thiefs.

most of the time its so obvious for me what they are gonna do.

 

they stealthed they are D/P obviously if they didnt use steal they will pop steal/backstab combo so i just bomb my self :) he is either gonna stop his attack or he is gonna do it and rape his own health also.

thief is by far the least of my problem only char in my eyes that are OP are FB/Mesmer/Scourge.

Mesmer has more dodges then thief has more invul has more ports

FB can just path tru anything not giving a fuck.

Scourge pooping out more conditions then most people have cleanse.

[Hesacon.8735]

Thieves melt to conditions, better to take Pain Response than Instant Reflexes.

[Oozo.7856]

> @"reddie.5861" said:

> Mesmer has more dodges then thief has more invul has more ports

 

Fake news.

 

 

[Rezzet.3614]

> @"reddie.5861" said:

> > @"Rezzet.3614" said:

> > > @"reddie.5861" said:

> > > > @"Rezzet.3614" said:

> > > > eh thief's passive defense is ok, thief's problem is shortbow 5+ spam, Steal's range , sword's 2 spam, super speed on stealth(on a perma stealth class) thief basically has infinite mobility as long they got initiative , pair that with the easy access to stealth and yeah it becomes a problem amplified once you pair it with Daredevil triple avade+ evade dash

> > >

> > > what super speed? or did u just ram a super nice build together that in reality cant even kill 1 single npc?

> >

> > that would be the case if we all played like the peasant and do not switch traits depending on situations

> >

> > thief has insanely high damage scaling so they dont even need the damage traits for damage other than instant bursting human enemies

> > believe it or not thief has more options than critical strikes and deadly arts personally i use a grandmaster trait in the crit strike line that gives me 15% life steal on crit you know cuz i actually engage in sustained large scale combat instead of playing hit and run 1 target at a time

> >

> > now lets look at shadow arts: +1s stealth duration , stealth on steal, stealth at 50% hp or fall damage or lose conditions over time while stealthed, +50% move speed while stealthed ,25% damage reduction while stealthed and cant be critted

> >

> > yeah you give up potential burst for 1 v1s but you become perma invisible without needing to spam smoke finisher and such as much

> >

> > so yes Super speed on stealth exists , it wasnt even the focus of my statement anyways , doesnt change the fact thiefs have basically unlimited mobility and stealth , might be irrelevant in zerg fights but broken in most non large scale scenarios

>

> i advice you to play a thief, i mean i main a thief and i have absolutely no problem killing thiefs.

> most of the time its so obvious for me what they are gonna do.

>

> they stealthed they are D/P obviously if they didnt use steal they will pop steal/backstab combo so i just bomb my self :) he is either gonna stop his attack or he is gonna do it and kitten his own health also.

> thief is by far the least of my problem only char in my eyes that are OP are FB/Mesmer/Scourge.

> Mesmer has more dodges then thief has more invul has more ports

> FB can just path tru anything not giving a kitten.

> Scourge pooping out more conditions then most people have cleanse.

 

kinda beats the purpose of the argument when you use broken class to beat broken class in first place though dont it ?

 

but while i think thief is a bit broken , thief isnt even on my need to balance down list , scourges and firebrands are tossing all of the game's balance out the window right now , followed by mesmer

 

thief barely even is a threat in large scale fights

[Solori.6025]

> @"reddie.5861" said:

> > @"Rezzet.3614" said:

> > > @"reddie.5861" said:

> > > > @"Rezzet.3614" said:

> > > > eh thief's passive defense is ok, thief's problem is shortbow 5+ spam, Steal's range , sword's 2 spam, super speed on stealth(on a perma stealth class) thief basically has infinite mobility as long they got initiative , pair that with the easy access to stealth and yeah it becomes a problem amplified once you pair it with Daredevil triple avade+ evade dash

> > >

> > > what super speed? or did u just ram a super nice build together that in reality cant even kill 1 single npc?

> >

> > that would be the case if we all played like the peasant and do not switch traits depending on situations

> >

> > thief has insanely high damage scaling so they dont even need the damage traits for damage other than instant bursting human enemies

> > believe it or not thief has more options than critical strikes and deadly arts personally i use a grandmaster trait in the crit strike line that gives me 15% life steal on crit you know cuz i actually engage in sustained large scale combat instead of playing hit and run 1 target at a time

> >

> > now lets look at shadow arts: +1s stealth duration , stealth on steal, stealth at 50% hp or fall damage or lose conditions over time while stealthed, +50% move speed while stealthed ,25% damage reduction while stealthed and cant be critted

> >

> > yeah you give up potential burst for 1 v1s but you become perma invisible without needing to spam smoke finisher and such as much

> >

> > so yes Super speed on stealth exists , it wasnt even the focus of my statement anyways , doesnt change the fact thiefs have basically unlimited mobility and stealth , might be irrelevant in zerg fights but broken in most non large scale scenarios

>

> i advice you to play a thief, i mean i main a thief and i have absolutely no problem killing thiefs.

> most of the time its so obvious for me what they are gonna do.

>

> they stealthed they are D/P obviously if they didnt use steal they will pop steal/backstab combo so i just bomb my self :) he is either gonna stop his attack or he is gonna do it and kitten his own health also.

> thief is by far the least of my problem only char in my eyes that are OP are FB/Mesmer/Scourge.

> Mesmer has more dodges then thief has more invul has more ports

I was with you until you straight up lied .

 

Mesmer has two dodges

Mesmer has one invuln ( sword 2 is an evade still effect by PBAoE stuns such as shocking aura)

And blink. - one port- ( unless someone is running some variant with mirage and take the shadowstep)

 

As a reminder- you can not take Mirage and Chrono at the same time.