Master Ketsu.4569 Posted May 29, 2018 Share Posted May 29, 2018 > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > @"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said: > > **Give sword ambush a target requirement** > > This is just ridiculous. At that point you might as well make every ability with any sort of movement attached to it in the game require a target. Play Revenant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeLZedaR.4790 Posted May 29, 2018 Share Posted May 29, 2018 still 3-4 mes every game. Top 3 is all mesmers. Mirage might not be as faceroll as chrono was but it’s close, and it’s just as strong as chrono was. Mirage needs the dodge mechanic to not be god mode. It’s powerful enough you can attack and gain special attacks while dodging and the. It’s also longer, netting more evasion uptime. It should not allow you to dodge while Cc’d especially without EM. EM itself needs to go. Right now it’s a distortion in almost every aspect, while not disabling cap contribution but also not ignoring unevadable attacks such as hammer 5 on guard. The damage itself should remain for now, and then we need a global tone down of damage, not just mirage. What puts it above the rest right now is the sustain and evasiveness (it can be extremely hard to catch, more than a thief). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trevor Boyer.6524 Posted May 29, 2018 Share Posted May 29, 2018 I'll probably get infracted for doing this, but I should have posted this in this thread to begin with: > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > > I see what you mean, but at one point the OP states: "Chronophantasma is the problem, stop touching other builds." as if Mirage were balanced. > > Look, at this point I don't care what they do to Mirage, it just needs to be less powerful. I'm not asking for some mechanical change because over the years of hearing Mesmer players say this, I kind of feel that request is a cop-out to avoid what really needs to be done and that is just flat out nearing the kitten Mesmer, regardless of if the nerf is sloppy or not. I've long been tired of seeing Mesmer have: > * The best burst in conquest > * The best attrition in conquest > * The best personal flat sustain in conquest "while running DPS amulets mind you." > * The best disengage in conquest, right next to Thief. > * The best mobility in conquest, right next to D/P Daredevil "arguably better mobility than any Thief with great use of Portal Entre." > * The best utility in conquest, even able to instantly rotate slow team members around the map with Portal Entre. > * The most confusing dynamic of playstyle by nature, which contributes greatly to unintended escape routing and damage mitigation through soaking cleave limits via clone spam. The larger AoEs have a limit of 5 targets, some attacks are limited to 3 targets and some things only hit 1. When a Mesmer is spewing clone clutter all over the place and he is on the node with 2 teammates, let's say a Ranger with a pet and a Necromancer with a Flesh Golem, that is more than likely going to be 10 targets on average that are on the node from the Mesmer's team color, only 3 of which are actually players. So a player from the opposing team could target 1 player with a large AoE, let's say he is trying to hit with an Arc Divider. The Arc Divider will priority target the first player he actually has name bar targeted, but then the 4 other strikes from his 5 cleave limit will only target the next closest targets, with no priority of if they are AIs or Human Players. <- This is broken and probably the #1 most busted mechanical advantage that most players never recognize about Mesmers. This is more powerful than any protection buff or any statistical damage mitigation offered in game. Those clones are better than Aegis spam. This becomes exponentially broken, the most Mesmers that are on a node creating random AIs that soak cleave limits In team fights. > * The ONLY completely anti-burst mechanic in the game, Elusive Mind. The Mirage can just "get out of jail free card" himself out of any bad situation, literally instantly, any time he wants. Between Elusive Mind, Blink, Portal Entre and Jaunt, g'luck killing that Mirage. > * The ONLY mechanic in the game that allows a character "the Mirage" to be 100% offensive while still being 100% defensive, again Elusive Mind. I don't think enough players are truly recognizing how ridiculously game breaking and overly mechanically powerful this is in competitive modes. So you have all of the above, then that is mixed with this. > > It's not a bit too much, its way way way too much. The only thing Mesmer does not do, is heal and spit boons all over the party like a Firebrand. Other than that, it is seriously better than every other class, in every way. I don't feel bad for any Mesmer player right now and I sincerely hope Mirage doesn't get nerfed, but rather straight up amputated in at least two areas of its greatness. It needs it. > I'm fine with how Chrono Disenchanter is performing. It's Mirage that needs immediate nerfing before next season. Like.. I'm getting tired of waiting for "finely balanced mechanical changes." Can we just get this fixed before it dirtiest up the next season again? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deniara Devious.3948 Posted May 30, 2018 Share Posted May 30, 2018 Yes. Especially mirage needs nerfs. Having both a lot of escapes (and stun break on dodge) + tons of damage and burst in one build is just insane. Both condi and power mirage need significant nerfs, e.g. shaving off 10 % from damage is nowhere near what is needed. No purpose to play spvp while the balance is as horrible as it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vieux P.1238 Posted May 30, 2018 Share Posted May 30, 2018 > @"Deniara Devious.3948" said: > Yes. Especially mirage needs nerfs. Having both a lot of escapes (and stun break on dodge) + tons of damage and burst in one build is just insane. Both condi and power mirage need significant nerfs, e.g. shaving off 10 % from damage is nowhere near what is needed. No purpose to play spvp while the balance is as horrible as it is. > WoW, i thought you where talking about thief now.. Both condi and power. I wonder why ppl din't make an issue of Mirage before last patch when making an issue of Chrono. I mean lots of ppl was playing the same mirage build before the Chrono nerf. So what happen? Din't see no one crying about it then. What's next after that? GS power shatter nerf? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FyzE.3472 Posted May 30, 2018 Share Posted May 30, 2018 > @"Vieux P.1238" said: > > @"Deniara Devious.3948" said: > > Yes. Especially mirage needs nerfs. Having both a lot of escapes (and stun break on dodge) + tons of damage and burst in one build is just insane. Both condi and power mirage need significant nerfs, e.g. shaving off 10 % from damage is nowhere near what is needed. No purpose to play spvp while the balance is as horrible as it is. > > > > WoW, i thought you where talking about thief now.. Both condi and power. > I wonder why ppl din't make an issue of Mirage before last patch when making an issue of Chrono. I mean lots of ppl was playing the same mirage build before the Chrono nerf. So what happen? Din't see no one crying about it then. What's next after that? GS power shatter nerf? Yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dralor.3701 Posted May 30, 2018 Share Posted May 30, 2018 > @"Vieux P.1238" said: > > @"Deniara Devious.3948" said: > > Yes. Especially mirage needs nerfs. Having both a lot of escapes (and stun break on dodge) + tons of damage and burst in one build is just insane. Both condi and power mirage need significant nerfs, e.g. shaving off 10 % from damage is nowhere near what is needed. No purpose to play spvp while the balance is as horrible as it is. > > > > WoW, i thought you where talking about thief now.. Both condi and power. > I wonder why ppl din't make an issue of Mirage before last patch when making an issue of Chrono. I mean lots of ppl was playing the same mirage build before the Chrono nerf. So what happen? Din't see no one crying about it then. What's next after that? GS power shatter nerf? People have been complaining about mirage for a while, chrono was just a bigger issue at the time. We are lucky if anything gets tuned once every three months so best to focus on the worst offender? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AliamRationem.5172 Posted May 30, 2018 Share Posted May 30, 2018 > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > Mirage's being able to dodge while CC'd is what makes them so broken. This alone removes basically removes counterplay and negates any reward you'd get from timing your skills well. > > > > > > Killing a mirage is about applying so much pressure nonstop that maybe, eventually, possibly, they'll start to go down. However, even then they can just sword ambush, portal, blink, or jaunt their way out of a fight while still maintaining enough damage to 1 shot you with either power or condi. > > > > No the stunbreak on dodge makes it broken, the dodge during cc by still being useless for the whole stunduration is not broken. Its strong but not op. This is a big difference. A fresh air ele can do more during being cced than a mirage without elusive mind since game release, he can counterburst you, the burst even include a blind so he also will evade some dmg e.g your whole follow up one button burst like an eviscerate. The mirage can avoid some damage but he don't fully negate your stun, he cannot move during the stun to get distance and he can't use skills, not to mention that most cc last longer than one mirage cloak. I would not call that an overperforming dodge. > > > > > @"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said: > > > They absolutely need more nerfs. Elusive mind needs to go. The ability to Dodge while stunned needs to go. > > > They need the same treatment to burning that *every other profession got*. Give sword ambush a target requirement and nerf portal once and for all. > > > > Except of the elusive mind delete this is just lol. > > > > No, the whole point of dodge is to reactively avoid an attack. Mirage being able to dodge while cc'd removes the whole purpose of the cc in the first place and rewards the mesmer for having bad timing. Mirage Cloak already lasts longer than a normal dodge and can attack during the animation, that really should be it. > > Honestly, if its not broken, let's give every single class the same ability. Watch how messed up this game will become. That's nonsense. The whole reason it has a full second evade rather than 3/4 is because it doesn't move you, but only grants super speed. It was worse than a standard dodge at 3/4s, but you still have the issue that it's susceptible to movement impairing effects. Advantages and disadvantages are acceptable, but this would make mirage cloak objectively worse than the standard dodge in most scenarios. That is not intended. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deShinigami.2387 Posted May 30, 2018 Share Posted May 30, 2018 > @"AliamRationem.5172" said: > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > Mirage's being able to dodge while CC'd is what makes them so broken. This alone removes basically removes counterplay and negates any reward you'd get from timing your skills well. > > > > > > > > Killing a mirage is about applying so much pressure nonstop that maybe, eventually, possibly, they'll start to go down. However, even then they can just sword ambush, portal, blink, or jaunt their way out of a fight while still maintaining enough damage to 1 shot you with either power or condi. > > > > > > No the stunbreak on dodge makes it broken, the dodge during cc by still being useless for the whole stunduration is not broken. Its strong but not op. This is a big difference. A fresh air ele can do more during being cced than a mirage without elusive mind since game release, he can counterburst you, the burst even include a blind so he also will evade some dmg e.g your whole follow up one button burst like an eviscerate. The mirage can avoid some damage but he don't fully negate your stun, he cannot move during the stun to get distance and he can't use skills, not to mention that most cc last longer than one mirage cloak. I would not call that an overperforming dodge. > > > > > > > @"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said: > > > > They absolutely need more nerfs. Elusive mind needs to go. The ability to Dodge while stunned needs to go. > > > > They need the same treatment to burning that *every other profession got*. Give sword ambush a target requirement and nerf portal once and for all. > > > > > > Except of the elusive mind delete this is just lol. > > > > > > > No, the whole point of dodge is to reactively avoid an attack. Mirage being able to dodge while cc'd removes the whole purpose of the cc in the first place and rewards the mesmer for having bad timing. Mirage Cloak already lasts longer than a normal dodge and can attack during the animation, that really should be it. > > > > Honestly, if its not broken, let's give every single class the same ability. Watch how messed up this game will become. > > but you still have the issue that it's susceptible to movement impairing effects. Advantages and disadvantages are acceptable, but this would make mirage cloak objectively worse than the standard dodge in most scenarios. That is not intended. Mirage can dodge while Immobilized, other classes can not. (exception being UC Daredevil). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shadowpass.4236 Posted May 30, 2018 Share Posted May 30, 2018 > @"AliamRationem.5172" said: > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > Mirage's being able to dodge while CC'd is what makes them so broken. This alone removes basically removes counterplay and negates any reward you'd get from timing your skills well. > > > > > > > > Killing a mirage is about applying so much pressure nonstop that maybe, eventually, possibly, they'll start to go down. However, even then they can just sword ambush, portal, blink, or jaunt their way out of a fight while still maintaining enough damage to 1 shot you with either power or condi. > > > > > > No the stunbreak on dodge makes it broken, the dodge during cc by still being useless for the whole stunduration is not broken. Its strong but not op. This is a big difference. A fresh air ele can do more during being cced than a mirage without elusive mind since game release, he can counterburst you, the burst even include a blind so he also will evade some dmg e.g your whole follow up one button burst like an eviscerate. The mirage can avoid some damage but he don't fully negate your stun, he cannot move during the stun to get distance and he can't use skills, not to mention that most cc last longer than one mirage cloak. I would not call that an overperforming dodge. > > > > > > > @"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said: > > > > They absolutely need more nerfs. Elusive mind needs to go. The ability to Dodge while stunned needs to go. > > > > They need the same treatment to burning that *every other profession got*. Give sword ambush a target requirement and nerf portal once and for all. > > > > > > Except of the elusive mind delete this is just lol. > > > > > > > No, the whole point of dodge is to reactively avoid an attack. Mirage being able to dodge while cc'd removes the whole purpose of the cc in the first place and rewards the mesmer for having bad timing. Mirage Cloak already lasts longer than a normal dodge and can attack during the animation, that really should be it. > > > > Honestly, if its not broken, let's give every single class the same ability. Watch how messed up this game will become. > > That's nonsense. The whole reason it has a full second evade rather than 3/4 is because it doesn't move you, but only grants super speed. It was worse than a standard dodge at 3/4s, but you still have the issue that it's susceptible to movement impairing effects. Advantages and disadvantages are acceptable, but this would make mirage cloak objectively worse than the standard dodge in most scenarios. That is not intended. Wow, you're right! I can't believe how wrong I was! _Just kidding._ Wiki what super speed does before you come here acting like you know what you're talking about. "Mirage Cloak gives you super speed but you're STILL affected by movement impairing conditions!" Please tell me you're meme-ing. lmfaaoooooo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EpicTurtle.8571 Posted May 30, 2018 Share Posted May 30, 2018 > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > @"AliamRationem.5172" said: > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > > Mirage's being able to dodge while CC'd is what makes them so broken. This alone removes basically removes counterplay and negates any reward you'd get from timing your skills well. > > > > > > > > > > Killing a mirage is about applying so much pressure nonstop that maybe, eventually, possibly, they'll start to go down. However, even then they can just sword ambush, portal, blink, or jaunt their way out of a fight while still maintaining enough damage to 1 shot you with either power or condi. > > > > > > > > No the stunbreak on dodge makes it broken, the dodge during cc by still being useless for the whole stunduration is not broken. Its strong but not op. This is a big difference. A fresh air ele can do more during being cced than a mirage without elusive mind since game release, he can counterburst you, the burst even include a blind so he also will evade some dmg e.g your whole follow up one button burst like an eviscerate. The mirage can avoid some damage but he don't fully negate your stun, he cannot move during the stun to get distance and he can't use skills, not to mention that most cc last longer than one mirage cloak. I would not call that an overperforming dodge. > > > > > > > > > @"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said: > > > > > They absolutely need more nerfs. Elusive mind needs to go. The ability to Dodge while stunned needs to go. > > > > > They need the same treatment to burning that *every other profession got*. Give sword ambush a target requirement and nerf portal once and for all. > > > > > > > > Except of the elusive mind delete this is just lol. > > > > > > > > > > No, the whole point of dodge is to reactively avoid an attack. Mirage being able to dodge while cc'd removes the whole purpose of the cc in the first place and rewards the mesmer for having bad timing. Mirage Cloak already lasts longer than a normal dodge and can attack during the animation, that really should be it. > > > > > > Honestly, if its not broken, let's give every single class the same ability. Watch how messed up this game will become. > > > > That's nonsense. The whole reason it has a full second evade rather than 3/4 is because it doesn't move you, but only grants super speed. It was worse than a standard dodge at 3/4s, but you still have the issue that it's susceptible to movement impairing effects. Advantages and disadvantages are acceptable, but this would make mirage cloak objectively worse than the standard dodge in most scenarios. That is not intended. > > Wow, you're right! I can't believe how wrong I was! > > _Just kidding._ > > Wiki what super speed does before you come here acting like you know what you're talking about. > > "Mirage Cloak gives you super speed but you're STILL affected by movement impairing conditions!" Please tell me you're meme-ing. lmfaaoooooo You realize superspeed only functions in one direction right? This particular issue wasn't game mode centric, Mirage Cloak was clunky and irritating to use across the board when it was at 3/4 seconds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shadowpass.4236 Posted May 30, 2018 Share Posted May 30, 2018 > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > @"AliamRationem.5172" said: > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > > > Mirage's being able to dodge while CC'd is what makes them so broken. This alone removes basically removes counterplay and negates any reward you'd get from timing your skills well. > > > > > > > > > > > > Killing a mirage is about applying so much pressure nonstop that maybe, eventually, possibly, they'll start to go down. However, even then they can just sword ambush, portal, blink, or jaunt their way out of a fight while still maintaining enough damage to 1 shot you with either power or condi. > > > > > > > > > > No the stunbreak on dodge makes it broken, the dodge during cc by still being useless for the whole stunduration is not broken. Its strong but not op. This is a big difference. A fresh air ele can do more during being cced than a mirage without elusive mind since game release, he can counterburst you, the burst even include a blind so he also will evade some dmg e.g your whole follow up one button burst like an eviscerate. The mirage can avoid some damage but he don't fully negate your stun, he cannot move during the stun to get distance and he can't use skills, not to mention that most cc last longer than one mirage cloak. I would not call that an overperforming dodge. > > > > > > > > > > > @"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said: > > > > > > They absolutely need more nerfs. Elusive mind needs to go. The ability to Dodge while stunned needs to go. > > > > > > They need the same treatment to burning that *every other profession got*. Give sword ambush a target requirement and nerf portal once and for all. > > > > > > > > > > Except of the elusive mind delete this is just lol. > > > > > > > > > > > > > No, the whole point of dodge is to reactively avoid an attack. Mirage being able to dodge while cc'd removes the whole purpose of the cc in the first place and rewards the mesmer for having bad timing. Mirage Cloak already lasts longer than a normal dodge and can attack during the animation, that really should be it. > > > > > > > > Honestly, if its not broken, let's give every single class the same ability. Watch how messed up this game will become. > > > > > > That's nonsense. The whole reason it has a full second evade rather than 3/4 is because it doesn't move you, but only grants super speed. It was worse than a standard dodge at 3/4s, but you still have the issue that it's susceptible to movement impairing effects. Advantages and disadvantages are acceptable, but this would make mirage cloak objectively worse than the standard dodge in most scenarios. That is not intended. > > > > Wow, you're right! I can't believe how wrong I was! > > > > _Just kidding._ > > > > Wiki what super speed does before you come here acting like you know what you're talking about. > > > > "Mirage Cloak gives you super speed but you're STILL affected by movement impairing conditions!" Please tell me you're meme-ing. lmfaaoooooo > > You realize superspeed only functions in one direction right? This particular issue wasn't game mode centric, Mirage Cloak was clunky and irritating to use across the board when it was at 3/4 seconds. Ahhh yeah, you're right. I forgot that backpedaling after using Mirage Cloak is something people do. Honestly I think normal dodges are OP. Since Mirage Cloak is apparently objectively worse than a regular dodge, let's give it to every class across the board. :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abelisk.4527 Posted May 30, 2018 Share Posted May 30, 2018 Whenever people bring up the direction of dodging with Mirage it's like they totally forget panning exists. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abelisk.4527 Posted May 30, 2018 Share Posted May 30, 2018 > @"Abelisk.4527" said: > Whenever people bring up the direction of dodging with Mirage it's like they totally forget panning exists. Think of Mirage Cloak as an invuln. You can move in any direction ahead of time while avoiding damage. You can use skills while dodging. To top it off you get superspeed that makes you move more quickly. Edit: meant to edit my previous comment not quote, ah well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EpicTurtle.8571 Posted May 30, 2018 Share Posted May 30, 2018 > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > @"AliamRationem.5172" said: > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > > > > Mirage's being able to dodge while CC'd is what makes them so broken. This alone removes basically removes counterplay and negates any reward you'd get from timing your skills well. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Killing a mirage is about applying so much pressure nonstop that maybe, eventually, possibly, they'll start to go down. However, even then they can just sword ambush, portal, blink, or jaunt their way out of a fight while still maintaining enough damage to 1 shot you with either power or condi. > > > > > > > > > > > > No the stunbreak on dodge makes it broken, the dodge during cc by still being useless for the whole stunduration is not broken. Its strong but not op. This is a big difference. A fresh air ele can do more during being cced than a mirage without elusive mind since game release, he can counterburst you, the burst even include a blind so he also will evade some dmg e.g your whole follow up one button burst like an eviscerate. The mirage can avoid some damage but he don't fully negate your stun, he cannot move during the stun to get distance and he can't use skills, not to mention that most cc last longer than one mirage cloak. I would not call that an overperforming dodge. > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said: > > > > > > > They absolutely need more nerfs. Elusive mind needs to go. The ability to Dodge while stunned needs to go. > > > > > > > They need the same treatment to burning that *every other profession got*. Give sword ambush a target requirement and nerf portal once and for all. > > > > > > > > > > > > Except of the elusive mind delete this is just lol. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No, the whole point of dodge is to reactively avoid an attack. Mirage being able to dodge while cc'd removes the whole purpose of the cc in the first place and rewards the mesmer for having bad timing. Mirage Cloak already lasts longer than a normal dodge and can attack during the animation, that really should be it. > > > > > > > > > > Honestly, if its not broken, let's give every single class the same ability. Watch how messed up this game will become. > > > > > > > > That's nonsense. The whole reason it has a full second evade rather than 3/4 is because it doesn't move you, but only grants super speed. It was worse than a standard dodge at 3/4s, but you still have the issue that it's susceptible to movement impairing effects. Advantages and disadvantages are acceptable, but this would make mirage cloak objectively worse than the standard dodge in most scenarios. That is not intended. > > > > > > Wow, you're right! I can't believe how wrong I was! > > > > > > _Just kidding._ > > > > > > Wiki what super speed does before you come here acting like you know what you're talking about. > > > > > > "Mirage Cloak gives you super speed but you're STILL affected by movement impairing conditions!" Please tell me you're meme-ing. lmfaaoooooo > > > > You realize superspeed only functions in one direction right? This particular issue wasn't game mode centric, Mirage Cloak was clunky and irritating to use across the board when it was at 3/4 seconds. > > Ahhh yeah, you're right. I forgot that backpedaling after using Mirage Cloak is something people do. > > Honestly I think normal dodges are OP. Since Mirage Cloak is apparently objectively worse than a regular dodge, let's give it to every class across the board. :D You forgot the part where it isn't game mode centric, although I guess your brain only seems to have room for the sarcasm and not the reading comprehension. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shadowpass.4236 Posted May 30, 2018 Share Posted May 30, 2018 > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > > @"AliamRationem.5172" said: > > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > > > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > > > > > Mirage's being able to dodge while CC'd is what makes them so broken. This alone removes basically removes counterplay and negates any reward you'd get from timing your skills well. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Killing a mirage is about applying so much pressure nonstop that maybe, eventually, possibly, they'll start to go down. However, even then they can just sword ambush, portal, blink, or jaunt their way out of a fight while still maintaining enough damage to 1 shot you with either power or condi. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No the stunbreak on dodge makes it broken, the dodge during cc by still being useless for the whole stunduration is not broken. Its strong but not op. This is a big difference. A fresh air ele can do more during being cced than a mirage without elusive mind since game release, he can counterburst you, the burst even include a blind so he also will evade some dmg e.g your whole follow up one button burst like an eviscerate. The mirage can avoid some damage but he don't fully negate your stun, he cannot move during the stun to get distance and he can't use skills, not to mention that most cc last longer than one mirage cloak. I would not call that an overperforming dodge. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said: > > > > > > > > They absolutely need more nerfs. Elusive mind needs to go. The ability to Dodge while stunned needs to go. > > > > > > > > They need the same treatment to burning that *every other profession got*. Give sword ambush a target requirement and nerf portal once and for all. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Except of the elusive mind delete this is just lol. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No, the whole point of dodge is to reactively avoid an attack. Mirage being able to dodge while cc'd removes the whole purpose of the cc in the first place and rewards the mesmer for having bad timing. Mirage Cloak already lasts longer than a normal dodge and can attack during the animation, that really should be it. > > > > > > > > > > > > Honestly, if its not broken, let's give every single class the same ability. Watch how messed up this game will become. > > > > > > > > > > That's nonsense. The whole reason it has a full second evade rather than 3/4 is because it doesn't move you, but only grants super speed. It was worse than a standard dodge at 3/4s, but you still have the issue that it's susceptible to movement impairing effects. Advantages and disadvantages are acceptable, but this would make mirage cloak objectively worse than the standard dodge in most scenarios. That is not intended. > > > > > > > > Wow, you're right! I can't believe how wrong I was! > > > > > > > > _Just kidding._ > > > > > > > > Wiki what super speed does before you come here acting like you know what you're talking about. > > > > > > > > "Mirage Cloak gives you super speed but you're STILL affected by movement impairing conditions!" Please tell me you're meme-ing. lmfaaoooooo > > > > > > You realize superspeed only functions in one direction right? This particular issue wasn't game mode centric, Mirage Cloak was clunky and irritating to use across the board when it was at 3/4 seconds. > > > > Ahhh yeah, you're right. I forgot that backpedaling after using Mirage Cloak is something people do. > > > > Honestly I think normal dodges are OP. Since Mirage Cloak is apparently objectively worse than a regular dodge, let's give it to every class across the board. :D > > You forgot the part where it isn't game mode centric, although I guess your brain only seems to have room for the sarcasm and not the reading the comprehension. I must've also forgotten the part where this isn't the PvP subforum. Oh wait, _it is!_ Now, if you take a minute and do the math, that means we're talking about PvP here. So if you want to discuss backpedaling while using Mirage Cloak in PvE/WvW, take that elsewhere. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EpicTurtle.8571 Posted May 30, 2018 Share Posted May 30, 2018 > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > > > @"AliamRationem.5172" said: > > > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > > > > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > > > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > > > > > > Mirage's being able to dodge while CC'd is what makes them so broken. This alone removes basically removes counterplay and negates any reward you'd get from timing your skills well. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Killing a mirage is about applying so much pressure nonstop that maybe, eventually, possibly, they'll start to go down. However, even then they can just sword ambush, portal, blink, or jaunt their way out of a fight while still maintaining enough damage to 1 shot you with either power or condi. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No the stunbreak on dodge makes it broken, the dodge during cc by still being useless for the whole stunduration is not broken. Its strong but not op. This is a big difference. A fresh air ele can do more during being cced than a mirage without elusive mind since game release, he can counterburst you, the burst even include a blind so he also will evade some dmg e.g your whole follow up one button burst like an eviscerate. The mirage can avoid some damage but he don't fully negate your stun, he cannot move during the stun to get distance and he can't use skills, not to mention that most cc last longer than one mirage cloak. I would not call that an overperforming dodge. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said: > > > > > > > > > They absolutely need more nerfs. Elusive mind needs to go. The ability to Dodge while stunned needs to go. > > > > > > > > > They need the same treatment to burning that *every other profession got*. Give sword ambush a target requirement and nerf portal once and for all. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Except of the elusive mind delete this is just lol. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No, the whole point of dodge is to reactively avoid an attack. Mirage being able to dodge while cc'd removes the whole purpose of the cc in the first place and rewards the mesmer for having bad timing. Mirage Cloak already lasts longer than a normal dodge and can attack during the animation, that really should be it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Honestly, if its not broken, let's give every single class the same ability. Watch how messed up this game will become. > > > > > > > > > > > > That's nonsense. The whole reason it has a full second evade rather than 3/4 is because it doesn't move you, but only grants super speed. It was worse than a standard dodge at 3/4s, but you still have the issue that it's susceptible to movement impairing effects. Advantages and disadvantages are acceptable, but this would make mirage cloak objectively worse than the standard dodge in most scenarios. That is not intended. > > > > > > > > > > Wow, you're right! I can't believe how wrong I was! > > > > > > > > > > _Just kidding._ > > > > > > > > > > Wiki what super speed does before you come here acting like you know what you're talking about. > > > > > > > > > > "Mirage Cloak gives you super speed but you're STILL affected by movement impairing conditions!" Please tell me you're meme-ing. lmfaaoooooo > > > > > > > > You realize superspeed only functions in one direction right? This particular issue wasn't game mode centric, Mirage Cloak was clunky and irritating to use across the board when it was at 3/4 seconds. > > > > > > Ahhh yeah, you're right. I forgot that backpedaling after using Mirage Cloak is something people do. > > > > > > Honestly I think normal dodges are OP. Since Mirage Cloak is apparently objectively worse than a regular dodge, let's give it to every class across the board. :D > > > > You forgot the part where it isn't game mode centric, although I guess your brain only seems to have room for the sarcasm and not the reading the comprehension. > > I must've also forgotten the part where this isn't the PvP subforum. Oh wait, _it is!_ > > Now, if you take a minute and do the math, that means we're talking about PvP here. So if you want to discuss backpedaling while using Mirage Cloak in PvE/WvW, take that elsewhere. :) Think a little harder, a discussion as to why Mirage Cloak needed to be 1 second and not 3/4 second is not encompassed solely by PvP, which you can't seem to understand, thus you'd have to include the rest of the game in the discussion briefly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteepledHat.1345 Posted May 30, 2018 Share Posted May 30, 2018 > @"Vieux P.1238" said: > > @"Deniara Devious.3948" said: > > Yes. Especially mirage needs nerfs. Having both a lot of escapes (and stun break on dodge) + tons of damage and burst in one build is just insane. Both condi and power mirage need significant nerfs, e.g. shaving off 10 % from damage is nowhere near what is needed. No purpose to play spvp while the balance is as horrible as it is. > > > > WoW, i thought you where talking about thief now.. Both condi and power. > I wonder why ppl din't make an issue of Mirage before last patch when making an issue of Chrono. I mean lots of ppl was playing the same mirage build before the Chrono nerf. So what happen? Din't see no one crying about it then. What's next after that? GS power shatter nerf? Don't get upset, they're just playing the meta strategy of complaining until your counter doesn't exist. That's how it goes in Esports. /s They will always find something to break in mesmer. They will always find something to nerf for being "unbalanced." Meanwhile, scourges still make the game into "the capture point is lava" and engis can CC for day, but condi mesmer is absolutely teh biggest issue guys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dralor.3701 Posted May 30, 2018 Share Posted May 30, 2018 There are a few classes that need some toning down but... I’m not sure what game you’re playing if you think mirage is okay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apharma.3741 Posted May 30, 2018 Share Posted May 30, 2018 Am I the only person that was left scratching their head when mirage was unveiled as a condition damage spec especially with clones doing ambush skills that likewise can stack a ton of conditions? Either way the problems are pretty much mirage and I hope unlike the last set of nerfs they target mirage specifically and nerf just mirage. Try something on a core build, if it’s not OP there then it probably doesn’t need changing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sephiroth.4217 Posted May 31, 2018 Share Posted May 31, 2018 Unpopular opinion: No, Mesmer doesn't need more nerfs.... Just Elusive Mind nerf. Mesmer is still in a good spot due to portal, but effective builds are slim and all have glaring weaknesses if the player knows how to exploit said builds. Right now the current carrion build is countered by Inspiration line for example and doesn't handle sustained condition pressure too well (just my experience from using grievers ammy against the current meta set up).... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coro.3176 Posted May 31, 2018 Share Posted May 31, 2018 Mirage has a couple mechanics that are broken and need addressing if the spec is ever meant to be balanced: **Mirage Cloak** This is a strict upgrade to dodge. There's no tradeoff. It's just better. The only way I can see to balance it would be to severely nerf the mirage traitline, so that getting mirage cloak would mean that you'd be sacrificing something by having the rest of the traits be pretty bad. That way, you choose: powerful dodge mechanic, weak traits, or normal dodge mechanic, normal traits. Instead, we have probably the most OP trait in the game... **Elusive Mind** A lot of builds rely on locking down their opponent with CC. A lot of these CCs are hard to land and have long cooldowns. The fact that a mirage can be hit by these, but then instantly get out of them and become invulnerable AND cleanse a condi AND all with NO ICD on the trait is absolutely ridiculous. Consider that stunbreak traits are usually gated by ICDs of over 1 minute. Mirage can do this gated only by endurance (realistically, probably 4-6 times a minute). This is on a class that already has a full complement of "normal" skill stunbreaks. Opponents are taking risks and expending a cooldown to attempt to cc the mesmer. If they succeed, the mesmer just undoes it all with a dodge (which will regenerate much faster than the original cc). How did this make it through testing? I suggest putting a high ICD on this trait (like, 45 seconds, minimum) or just removing it entirely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Levijeh.1467 Posted May 31, 2018 Share Posted May 31, 2018 Condi mirage is fine wth are you talking about xD https://clips.twitch.tv/FreezingExcitedHeronKappa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AliamRationem.5172 Posted May 31, 2018 Share Posted May 31, 2018 > @"coro.3176" said: > Mirage has a couple mechanics that are broken and need addressing if the spec is ever meant to be balanced: > > **Mirage Cloak** > This is a strict upgrade to dodge. There's no tradeoff. It's just better. The only way I can see to balance it would be to severely nerf the mirage traitline, so that getting mirage cloak would mean that you'd be sacrificing something by having the rest of the traits be pretty bad. That way, you choose: powerful dodge mechanic, weak traits, or normal dodge mechanic, normal traits. Instead, we have probably the most OP trait in the game... > > **Elusive Mind** > A lot of builds rely on locking down their opponent with CC. A lot of these CCs are hard to land and have long cooldowns. The fact that a mirage can be hit by these, but then instantly get out of them and become invulnerable AND cleanse a condi AND all with NO ICD on the trait is absolutely ridiculous. Consider that stunbreak traits are usually gated by ICDs of over 1 minute. Mirage can do this gated only by endurance (realistically, probably 4-6 times a minute). This is on a class that already has a full complement of "normal" skill stunbreaks. Opponents are taking risks and expending a cooldown to attempt to cc the mesmer. If they succeed, the mesmer just undoes it all with a dodge (which will regenerate much faster than the original cc). How did this make it through testing? I suggest putting a high ICD on this trait (like, 45 seconds, minimum) or just removing it entirely. Mirage cloak is supposed to be an upgrade to dodge. It's the class mechanic for the Mirage spec. Does reaper have to trait to use shroud? It's bad enough you have to use a grandmaster trait to get your clones to ambush with you! I'm not saying there's nothing wrong with it or that it can't be adjusted, but I disagree with your basic assumption that Mirage Cloak should be on par with the standard dodge. I agree entirely on EM. It's just a stupid idea to give mirage stun break on dodge. They don't need it. Replace this trait with something completely different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Razor.6392 Posted May 31, 2018 Share Posted May 31, 2018 I'm glad finally people are catching on the ability to use dodge frames while cc'd. Sure elusive mind is stupid, but the former is more stupid times 200000, to the point where even if EM was deleted, things would still be the same. Jaunt needs to have most of its damage stripped away. It's a repositioning / movement tool, not something that should contribute to the already high mirage nuke potential. From there just reduce burning stacks on torch and things are fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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