base game scaling

[Lexi.1398]

> @"Tharus.7249" said:

> Having a dedicated support/healer in a zone where the game is already too easy.... I don't think that solves the problem.

 

I personally disagree having done that myself ^^

New toons and especially new players are very weak in comparison to experienced 80s - they won't get anywhere near a half decent dps with all the might stacks in the world, especially with no idea on rotation. So no...it doesn't really make it super easy for them, or at least, not more so than it would be easy for you to bring a full dps lv80.

 

My experience supporting someone who was new to mmorpgs entirely - as in gw2 was the first game of it's genre they ever played - was that lv15 zones were quite a challenge for them and they found it difficult to dodge things. They also struggled with gearing up their character, having mostly lv10-15 gear doing a lv30 map meant i had to help them quite a bit. And my experience with the same for someone who wasn't new to mmos, but of avergae skill with awful gear (under leveled, bad stats) was that i didn't need to help them to kill things per se, but boy was it slow without my dps there.

 

Some things you have to keep in mind: There has been massive power creep, lv80s have access to some pretty buff elite specs which already give you an advantage over a lv10 even if you were both naked - especially dps heavy elite specs like dragon hunter (procession of blades absolutely reks low level maps) and that isn't the only elite spec which will rule low lvl maps. As these aren't lv80 zones, buffing them in line with power creep would make them VERY difficult for new players who haven't got a handle on gear or rotations yet and like my one friend may not even be able to pull off basic fight mechanics comfortably. These are zones for leveling toons and new players, so while i understand the desire for challenge - trust me, i can relate xD - i'm not sure what could be done to help the issue without massive rebalancing.

 

Also mind that the general leeway of 2 levels above the map sector being level cap has a huge impact for high level toons who are geared even half decently, but for non-80 new players may just be the only thing keeping them alive in a fight. Possibly, elite specs damage utilities and weapons could recieve a much harsher scale down for non-lv80 maps? I'm not really sure if that's possible.

[Ashen.2907]

I wouldnt mind seeing more aggressive downscaling for max level characters in low level zones. As it stands I tend to avoid sub 80 zones because of the scaling.

 

Not using my gear isnt really an option for me.

[Tharus.7249]

> @"Lexi.1398" said:

> > @"Tharus.7249" said:

> > Having a dedicated support/healer in a zone where the game is already too easy.... I don't think that solves the problem.

>

> I personally disagree having done that myself ^^

> New toons and especially new players are very weak in comparison to experienced 80s - they won't get anywhere near a half decent dps with all the might stacks in the world, especially with no idea on rotation. So no...it doesn't really make it super easy for them, or at least, not more so than it would be easy for you to bring a full dps lv80.

>

> My experience supporting someone who was new to mmorpgs entirely - as in gw2 was the first game of it's genre they ever played - was that lv15 zones were quite a challenge for them and they found it difficult to dodge things. They also struggled with gearing up their character, having mostly lv10-15 gear doing a lv30 map meant i had to help them quite a bit. And my experience with the same for someone who wasn't new to mmos, but of avergae skill with awful gear (under leveled, bad stats) was that i didn't need to help them to kill things per se, but boy was it slow without my dps there.

>

> Some things you have to keep in mind: There has been massive power creep, lv80s have access to some pretty buff elite specs which already give you an advantage over a lv10 even if you were both naked - especially dps heavy elite specs like dragon hunter (procession of blades absolutely reks low level maps) and that isn't the only elite spec which will rule low lvl maps. As these aren't lv80 zones, buffing them in line with power creep would make them VERY difficult for new players who haven't got a handle on gear or rotations yet and like my one friend may not even be able to pull off basic fight mechanics comfortably. These are zones for leveling toons and new players, so while i understand the desire for challenge - trust me, i can relate xD - i'm not sure what could be done to help the issue without massive rebalancing.

>

> Also mind that the general leeway of 2 levels above the map sector being level cap has a huge impact for high level toons who are geared even half decently, but for non-80 new players may just be the only thing keeping them alive in a fight. Possibly, elite specs damage utilities and weapons could recieve a much harsher scale down for non-lv80 maps? I'm not really sure if that's possible.

 

I couldn't disagree more with the healer/support sentiment having now gone back on my wifes account to start a fresh character and just play normally. Most fights were trivial and I made a point to play with 1 hand to simulate a bad mmo player. I would use the mouse to move, line up an attack, then take my hand off the mouse and move to the keyboard to do a few skills. I think the enemy's currently are too weak when at or slightly below your level.

 

But the challenge started to come when bumping into enemy's at a higher level than the character. Which is an experience dead with 80s because of how scaling works. Which brings me to my idea of being in a group with your friend and being able to scale down to their level. If they are a 12 click and you match them at 12.

[sorudo.9054]

IMO the mentor tag should solve this, lower yourself to party members so there is an equal plain.

Gear should be lowered and limited by lvl (so when you are lowered on lvl 50 your gear is lowered to rare instead of (for instance) exotic), it would serve the party better when everyone can have some non-insta kill times. :smile:

[Elden Arnaas.4870]

re: I will be buying another character slot to start a guy just to play till they reach level 80 zones - Good. I think that making your own solution will serve you better than waiting for an entirely new feature that may or may not ever be implemented.

For the record, I think that an option to scale a higher level party member down to the level of another party member is a good idea. But I think that it may be difficult to implement, and that Anet may question the need for it, as there is already another form of level scaling in game already. So it's good that you're working around the issue.

[Elden Arnaas.4870]

Taking a support role is not a stupid idea. There are plenty of high level players in starter areas helping new players without disrupting game play or ruining the game for them. It absolutely **is** possible. There are **also** high level characters running through starter areas vaporizing mobs before new players even realize where they are - totally disrupting events and ruining game play for the new players in that area.

How a player plays the game is their choice.

[Knighthonor.4061]

> @"Tharus.7249" said:

> All I have are max characters which i'm sure is most people by now and most of them haven't explored most of the world. I can't I just can't when nothing is fun to play because every single character is too powerful. Does everybody really enjoy being super powerful in most zones. The game has already lost it's teeth for new characters which is sad. Now a few of my friends are starting and I want to join them, but after an hour I realized just my presence ruins the game. If it was my choice I would drastically reduce the power level of characters when entering lower level area's or at least add a toggle that selects how much you want your character scaled down. Currently my only option is to buy a character slot, start somebody new, and begin another 1/5th completed world discovery journey just to play with friends.

>

> Ok did testing and came to the conclusion starting zones are just too easy. Now I think if we could add a system where you can group up with your friend and chose to scale to their level. That way if he is say a 12 and walked into a area with lvl 14 enemies it gets much harder and you would stay level 12 with him instead of scaling up and making the fight too easy. Or at the very least scale players down farther instead of being 2 levels higher than most enemy's around you.

 

You Dodge too much and use too much 1v1 aggro. Play more dangerously. Do more events and save people challenge yourself to keep others alive

[Ashen.2907]

> @"Elden Arnaas.4870" said:

> Taking a support role is not a stupid idea. There are plenty of high level players in starter areas helping new players without disrupting game play or ruining the game for them. It absolutely **is** possible. There are **also** high level characters running through starter areas vaporizing mobs before new players even realize where they are - totally disrupting events and ruining game play for the new players in that area.

> How a player plays the game is their choice.

 

Playing a support role in content that is not balanced to merit it, rendering already rather easy play trivial for new players seems like a bad idea to me. Eliminating even an illusion of challenge from the game would be awful IMO. No better than having a high level character with a mount run ahead and obliterate all foes before they could possibly pose a danger to the new characters.

[Elden Arnaas.4870]

Being a higher level character in a support role in a group of new players does not mean vaporizing all enemies before they can even attack. It also does not mean keeping everyone constantly at 100% health. It's a support role, which means you have to *observe* what is going on, *pay* *attention* to health bars, and *be* *aware* of feedback, etc... You have to judge how much to help new players vs how much you let them stand on their own. And it absolutely *can* be done, and be done well. Or it can be done badly. It can be tricky. And if it doesn't appeal to someone, or they don't understand how to do it, then they probably shouldn't attempt it.

[Ashen.2907]

I did not say that "Being a higher level character in a support role in a group of new players," means, "vaporizing all enemies before they can even attack." I did say that its no better than doing so (at least in most of GW2's lower level content).

[Elden Arnaas.4870]

I understand what you meant. You think that supporting new players with healing and buffs is just as bad as killing everything for them. And if you do **too much**, it is. So you *don't* do too much. You regulate your actions to what the party needs.

 

And while there are new players in starter areas that **do** **not** need help, there are new players in starter areas that **do** need help. You don't force help on players that don't want or need it. You find and help the ones that **do** want it. I don't help players that don't want help, even if they *need* help. It's their choice.

 

And you don't help players by doing everything for them and/or making it too easy. I've been a DM/GM in pencil and paper role playing games for quite a while, so I understand you have to moderate how much help you give players.

[Tharus.7249]

> @"Knighthonor.4061" said:

> > @"Tharus.7249" said:

> > All I have are max characters which i'm sure is most people by now and most of them haven't explored most of the world. I can't I just can't when nothing is fun to play because every single character is too powerful. Does everybody really enjoy being super powerful in most zones. The game has already lost it's teeth for new characters which is sad. Now a few of my friends are starting and I want to join them, but after an hour I realized just my presence ruins the game. If it was my choice I would drastically reduce the power level of characters when entering lower level area's or at least add a toggle that selects how much you want your character scaled down. Currently my only option is to buy a character slot, start somebody new, and begin another 1/5th completed world discovery journey just to play with friends.

> >

> > Ok did testing and came to the conclusion starting zones are just too easy. Now I think if we could add a system where you can group up with your friend and chose to scale to their level. That way if he is say a 12 and walked into a area with lvl 14 enemies it gets much harder and you would stay level 12 with him instead of scaling up and making the fight too easy. Or at the very least scale players down farther instead of being 2 levels higher than most enemy's around you.

>

> You Dodge too much and use too much 1v1 aggro. Play more dangerously. Do more events and save people challenge yourself to keep others alive

 

I dodged once maybe twice while gathering large groups for the tests and killed mobs well in groups well over 10 in number so i'm not sure that was the case

[Tharus.7249]

> @"Elden Arnaas.4870" said:

> Taking a support role is not a stupid idea. There are plenty of high level players in starter areas helping new players without disrupting game play or ruining the game for them. It absolutely **is** possible. There are **also** high level characters running through starter areas vaporizing mobs before new players even realize where they are - totally disrupting events and ruining game play for the new players in that area.

> How a player plays the game is their choice.

 

The beginning area's of the game are too easy already. If I was a 10 fighting level 9s and you were to sit around beside my new character and heal or buff me constantly you would be ruining my experience. Now if I was a 10 fighting level 14s then it would be nice to have a support. But if you were to run around my character as I was leveling just to keep me alive for more than a few min I would whisper you and ask you to leave.

[Tharus.7249]

> @"Elden Arnaas.4870" said:

> re: I will be buying another character slot to start a guy just to play till they reach level 80 zones - Good. I think that making your own solution will serve you better than waiting for an entirely new feature that may or may not ever be implemented.

> For the record, I think that an option to scale a higher level party member down to the level of another party member is a good idea. But I think that it may be difficult to implement, and that Anet may question the need for it, as there is already another form of level scaling in game already. So it's good that you're working around the issue.

 

This post wasn't about asking for solutions from the community but a general problem I've had with the game for a while that was exacerbated by having the new friends join. A thing that will remain a problem if they all make 3 or 4 characters and I join them as they level several alts over the next several months. But anet will never do anything if people don't talk ideas or make suggestions.

[Klowdy.3126]

> @"Tharus.7249" said:

> > @"Elden Arnaas.4870" said:

> > re: I will be buying another character slot to start a guy just to play till they reach level 80 zones - Good. I think that making your own solution will serve you better than waiting for an entirely new feature that may or may not ever be implemented.

> > For the record, I think that an option to scale a higher level party member down to the level of another party member is a good idea. But I think that it may be difficult to implement, and that Anet may question the need for it, as there is already another form of level scaling in game already. So it's good that you're working around the issue.

>

> This post wasn't about asking for solutions from the community but a general problem I've had with the game for a while that was exacerbated by having the new friends join. A thing that will remain a problem if they all make 3 or 4 characters and I join them as they level several alts over the next several months. But anet will never do anything if people don't talk ideas or make suggestions.

 

Even scaled down, you have more stats than someone else at the level you are scaled to. The zones below level 80 are made to suit the average player, wearing gear possibly 10+ levels below their own. The best thing to do is wear only body gear and weapons. If it's still too easy, drop to weapons only. After that, you just need to bite the bullet and suffer through the easy, or start a new character to play with your friends.

[joneirikb.7506]

Really wish ANet would make an option to decide out own scaling. Or at least a couple of quick options "Normal" as it is now, "Even" to match the level instead of +2 levels, and then "Under" for -5 or -10 levels to the content. Would make it slightly more fun.

 

But the largest problem is still that the AI is just that boring. Best PVE experience in the game is still the PVP dummy npc's in the PvP lobby.

[Tharus.7249]

> @"Klowdy.3126" said:

> > @"Tharus.7249" said:

> > > @"Elden Arnaas.4870" said:

> > > re: I will be buying another character slot to start a guy just to play till they reach level 80 zones - Good. I think that making your own solution will serve you better than waiting for an entirely new feature that may or may not ever be implemented.

> > > For the record, I think that an option to scale a higher level party member down to the level of another party member is a good idea. But I think that it may be difficult to implement, and that Anet may question the need for it, as there is already another form of level scaling in game already. So it's good that you're working around the issue.

> >

> > This post wasn't about asking for solutions from the community but a general problem I've had with the game for a while that was exacerbated by having the new friends join. A thing that will remain a problem if they all make 3 or 4 characters and I join them as they level several alts over the next several months. But anet will never do anything if people don't talk ideas or make suggestions.

>

> Even scaled down, you have more stats than someone else at the level you are scaled to. The zones below level 80 are made to suit the average player, wearing gear possibly 10+ levels below their own. The best thing to do is wear only body gear and weapons. If it's still too easy, drop to weapons only. After that, you just need to bite the bullet and suffer through the easy, or start a new character to play with your friends.

 

We already went through the removing all weapons/armor strategy and starting a new character fixes very little of the problem its just a temp fix for only one aspect of my complaint.

[Carighan.6758]

> @"Tharus.7249" said:

> If it was my choice I would drastically reduce the power level of characters when entering lower level area's or at least add a toggle that selects how much you want your character scaled down.

 

I think two things are at play here:

1. You are correct in that down-levelling isn't "strong enough". As a lvl80 in a lvl20 zone or so, you still plow through groups of mobs easily, ones which would down a lvl20 player. This is partially because you always get set to the *highest* level of each area, but also because you have more skills and - more importantly - more traits, plus usually gear more made for your strengths instead of whatever random pieces of questionable item level you found. More aggressive down-levelling would fix this, tbh.

2. More problematic is the effect HoT and PoF elite specs had. They are **significantly** more powerful in basic PvE mob handling than the base specs, although - and this made the effect worse! - subsequent balance changes have boosted some of the base abilities to similar power levels. In other words, nothing in the open world was originally built for us dealing **so** much damage and causing **so** many debuffs. Since I personally mind the incredibly short TTL this casuses in WvW, I wouldn't mind seeing a revert here, dropping power back down to base classes in exotic gear as a guideline for overall player power.

[Steve The Cynic.3217]

> @"Carighan.6758" said:

> > @"Tharus.7249" said:

> > If it was my choice I would drastically reduce the power level of characters when entering lower level area's or at least add a toggle that selects how much you want your character scaled down.

>

> I think two things are at play here:

 

I would tend to agree with those two things, although I think it's necessary to add a third thing that is more likely to be the source of @"Tharus.7249" 's main problem:

* He is too good at the non-stats part of GW2 combat.

 

What do I mean here? Well, we are told everywhere that the recommended build for most classes is pure glass-cannon (zerker, maybe Assassin for Mesmer) or its condi-build equivalent (Viper's). Why? Because we are supposed to avoid damage by not standing in stupid, by dodge-rolling at the right moment, and so on, stat points spent on defensive stats do nothing except reduce our damage output.

 

So, on doing all those gear-stripped experiments, have people put their GW2-noob active-defense non-skills back in place? I'd put money on the answer being "no". In a way, it shows that the glass-cannon build philosophy is absolutely correct, when a glass pea-shooter build can still win. In the hands of a GW2 noob (more precisely, an active-defense noob), a top-tuned glass cannon build cannot win because the noob doesn't have the AD skills to make it win. In the hands of an experienced player, even the glass pea-shooter will win, although perhaps not quite as fast.

 

TLDR : the problem comes from too much *player* skill as well as insufficient down-scaling.

[Elden Arnaas.4870]

It is certainly a good thing to to request additions or changes that you think would be improvements to the game. There have been many good ideas posted on these forums, and even in this thread.

 

The reason some people on these forums give advice as if those good ideas aren't going to be implemented, is that often good ideas presented on these forums are *not* implemented. And even if they are implemented, it may take a while.

 

The original Guild Wars games had easily savable, loadable, tradable, build templates. They were absolutely a good thing and Guild Wars 2 suffers in comparison not having them. Build templates for GW2 have been requested since beta. Yet after all these years, they have not been added.

 

So please do request additons or changes that you think would make the game better. But don't count on them being implemented quickly, or at all.

[Elden Arnaas.4870]

Starter and other low level areas in this game are too easy for **some** people. They are **not** too easy for **everyone**. So I don't think that the answer is to make any of the areas in the game more difficult. Better(more accurate) scaling would certainly help, but I can only remember Anet adjusting level scaling once.(that it was documented)

 

What might serve better or be more easily implemented is an individual "hard mode" or difficulty level,(applied to that character only) that would be applied independent of level scaling but would stack with it. I think this might be easier to implement than trying to match level with the party average level, and it could also be applied in level 80 areas. It might just be a toggle, or offer multiple intensities. It should not scale up rewards, as this could cause multiple unintended issues. It might offer things besides simple number alterations, like (temporary) regression of skill slots and trait slots/lines. It might offer additional penalties like outgoing damage reduction, and incoming damage increase.

 

A feature like this would meet the needs of high level characters trying to help new players, players who think that level scaling is not sufficient, and those who think that overall this game is too easy. And a change that can meet the needs of several groups is more appealing to developers.

[Yamazuki.6073]

Power level isn't really a problem, it's just that content while leveling is not meant to be difficult, and only becomes even easier after you already have experience. Even if all you had was 1 HP and the average stats for the level most things would still be too easy due to slow attacks and the general low health pools.

 

You also have to take into account for the traits you have, and additional abilities in the case of earlier zones, that someone leveling wouldn't have; especially any Elite Specs.