Please gut mesmer some more.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

@"Solori.6025" Welp, you just saw my post, which is pretty much a general summary of what everyone else is saying. Call it "biased" if you wish.

[apharma.3741]

> @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

> @"apharma.3741"

>

> 1. Thought we were talking about Mirages not Chrono?

> 2. I can count the amount of people in this forum who attempt to defend Mirage on one hand. The rest of the community agrees that it is over-powered, and they have also narrowed down and agree on extremely specific aspects of the specialization that needs reworking. I wouldn't call that "bias", I'd call it an overwhelming and nearly unanimous agreeance.

> 3. Quote Apharma: _"As a whole this community no longer looks at builds, skills, traits objectively both within the build, other builds and meta to come up with a reasoned argument and proposals and instead has devolved into a mob mentality who's only aim is to see something completely removed from play no matter how unwarranted the nerfs are, while also not actually fixing the main issue like the chrono nerfs."_ I actually lol'd at this. There are multiple topics going on this forum right now, that accurately and in much detail, highlight the exact key aspects that attribute to Mirage being SS+ in a meta where other classes are A+ at best. Plenty of detailed explanations, based from combat-wise, utility-wise, team-comp wise, rock/paper/scissors-wise, rotation-wise, raw-mathematics, mechanically, you name it. In fact, I'm not sure I've seen an over-powered discussion covered so thoroughly in the past. Perhaps you have not taken the time to read them or take them seriously in your stark Mesmer defense.

 

Nah I’m pretty sure most of the posts have been hyperbole, there have been the occasional well thought out changes which I upvote but it is far outweighed by the sheer number screaming mirage is breaking the game with permanent stealth, infinite clones, banning, one shotting people, evade spam, claims mirage somehow gets more dodges than other classes etc. There’s also been calls to nerf torch despite it having more counter play than most skills in the meta, one asking for a flat 70% damage reduction to every mesmer skill and calls to remove stealth from the class as well as a variety I’m going to hope we’re joking because they’re so hilariously wrong it’s not even funny.

 

@"Huskyboy.1053"

1. Elusive mind shouldn’t ever have left beta being a stunbreak, I said it before PoF came out, I say it now.

2. Mirage thrust shouldn’t create a clone, possibly changed to need a target.

3. They need to pick confusion or torment for mesmer/mirage and make the other sparingly applied, right now it applies both in liberal amounts. This is a problem because of PvE balance though where confusion is stupidly weak and stupidly strong in PvP.

[phokus.8934]

Mirage Thrust is fine as it is. The only issue with Mirage is just EM.

[Huskyboy.1053]

> @"apharma.3741" said:

> 3. They need to pick confusion or torment for mesmer/mirage and make the other sparingly applied, right now it applies both in liberal amounts. This is a problem because of PvE balance though where confusion is stupidly weak and stupidly strong in PvP.

 

Then they should just reduce confusion. Torment isn't THAT strong in sPvP so I wouldn't mind them reducing confusion duration by X amount and increasing torment duration by 2/3X amount.

 

[mes.4607]

One nerf would change it all... Make it so they CANNOT do any action during their "evade" that they normally couldn't do

[EpicTurtle.8571]

> @"mrauls.6519" said:

> One nerf would change it all... Make it so they CANNOT do any action during their "evade" that they normally couldn't do

 

That wouldn't work unless they also replaced Ambushes, which is very unlikely.

[Solori.6025]

> @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

> @"Solori.6025" Welp, you just saw my post, which is pretty much a general summary of what everyone else is saying. Call it "biased" if you wish.

 

Re-read what I wrote. While I have seen plenty of post by people ( mainly mesmer players) that are good, logical, and mechanically accurate, I have yet to see a OP or thread start off that way, and I have to look through 2-8 pages of garbage and hyperbole to find a reasonable well thought out post.

 

Until you can prove as much ( and I'm quite sure you can't) these forums are plagued with threads starting with lies, misinformation, misrepresentation, and or/ Hyperbolic garbage.

That tells you a lot about the community as a whole. When people can't even identify what a class is doing so they start a thread to complain about everything without actually knowing anything.

[Huskyboy.1053]

> @"EpicTurtle.8571" said:

> > @"mrauls.6519" said:

> > One nerf would change it all... Make it so they CANNOT do any action during their "evade" that they normally couldn't do

>

> That wouldn't work unless they also replaced Ambushes, which is very unlikely.

 

They don't need to replace Ambushes, they just need to grant Mirror Cloak on a different condition than a dodge. For example landing 5 consecutive hits with any offensive skill (i.e. not missing or being evaded). That's just one suggestion, you could get Mirror Cloak under any arbitrary condition, doesn't have to be dodges.

[NecroSummonsMors.7816]

Mirage benefits from a lot of different things that make it so strong. I don't like to jump on train nerf everything on X class because it just leads to nerfing the wrong things and can destroy builds and build variety., but I'll go through what I think Mirage benefit too much from. I'm not a main mesmer player, and what I might suggest might lead to harsh nerfs. I'm not saying all this changes should be implemented together, but gradually and tested to see how they impact the mesmer/mirage gameplay.

 

**Rune of Adventurer**: Give a full dodge each time you cast a healing skills. Imo that's too much especially on such a low cooldown. Replace the effect with vigor for a certain amount of time.

 

I propose this change because with vigor on heal and this rune, mirage can get the dodge up again too fast. Also if to this you add the free mirage cloak granted by the heal, you can pretty much dodge 2 times and after the heal skill have 1s of evade(mirage cloak) + another dodge available and the other half of dodge bar recharging fast because of vigor. You can understand that if you add to this Elusive Mind, there's no possible way someone can cc and burst you even a bit since you're already out of the stun and evading, this remove any counterplay to mesmer. Basically there's not way to lock down a mesmer with this capabilities and the high mobility, and leads to classic combat style of kiting for ages.

 

**False Oasis**: Vigor and a Mirage Cloak together+ heal. I think one of the 2 should be removed, and increased the heal amount. But maybe with nerf to Rune of Adventurer might be too much.

 

**Elusive Mind**: No class should be able to breakstun while dodging. Rework this trait. Mirage already have from mesmer skills plenty of breakstun skills, it shouldn't get more with no cooldown on it. They have already Signet of Midnight, blink, decoy, Mirror Images and as a new utility Sand Through Glass which is an evade+ break stun skill with movement attached to it and leaves even a mirror to gain a mirage cloak, which leads to another 1s of dodging.

 

It would be a good way to promote skillful gameplay if mirror that gives Mirage Cloak(1s of evade) wouldn't be given for free by using a utility but maybe tied to attack actions, for example reach x amount of torment spawn mirror or stacks 3+ condis on your enemy spawn a mirage mirror. This examples are way for condi builds to benefit from mirage cloak, but someone could design ways for power builds to get them too by skillful actions.

 

Now about the condition builds of Mesmer in general, which ties also to Mirage:

 

As we all know the main damaging condition for mesmer are Torment, Burning and Confusion which are generally covered with blind,cripple and bleeding or when using staff also weakness, chill and poison. In some cases with rights trait, many skills of mesmer can create multiple condition that if stacked can result in pretty devastating combos. I'm talking about the **Ineptitude** trait from Dueling trait line, this one infact adds stacks to confusion when blinding a target also. In the current condi meta build Carrion Ineptitude, this trait gives confusion to torch skill **The Prestige**, **Blinding Dissipation** (which should receive an internal cooldown in my opinion) from dueling trailine and **Signet of Midnight**(which has a blind that's unblockable). I'd like an increased cooldown or 1 stack reduced to this trait, because in my opinion blind on confusion frequent like this on 3s, might be one of the causes to a lot of high stacking Confusion, it's pretty easy to reach 15+ stacks that coupled with the other condis are in some cases though to survive. This nerf might not be needed if torch skills are addressed in a proper way.

 

**The Prestige** and **Phatasmal Mage** both benefith from The Pledge trait of Illusions trait line, that gives an additional burn stack to this 2 skills and reduce their cooldown. This torch's skills are used chained together which leads with the trait to 10 stacks of burning + 3stacks of confusion on torch5 + 2 stacks of confusion on blind from ineptitude on torch 4. I think it might be good a shave of 1 stack of burning from each skill, just to keep dmg in check. Since if you couple this skills with the ambush skill of staff Chaos Vortex or staff auto can lead to devastating burning damage. I propose to remove the 1 stack of burning on torch 5 from the part of the skill casted by the player and not the phantasm.

 

I repeat I'm not a pro mesmer/mirage player and I dont want to gut the class, this was a list of things that should be tested and not implemented together. I want mesmer and mirage to both be playable, but I'd like to see Mirage especially less forgiving on mistakes done by the player, because right now it can carry even bad players.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[EpicTurtle.8571]

> @"NecroSummonsMors.7816" said:

> Mirage benefits from a lot of different things that make it so strong. I don't like to jump on train nerf everything on X class because it just leads to nerfing the wrong things and can destroy builds and build variety., but I'll go through what I think Mirage benefit too much from. I'm not a main mesmer player, and what I might suggest might lead to harsh nerfs. I'm not saying all this changes should be implemented together, but gradually and tested to see how they impact the mesmer/mirage gameplay.

>

> **Rune of Adventurer**: Give a full dodge each time you cast a healing skills. Imo that's too much especially on such a low cooldown. Replace the effect with vigor for a certain amount of time.

>

> I propose this change because with vigor on heal and this rune, mirage can get the dodge up again too fast. Also if to this you add the free mirage cloak granted by the heal, you can pretty much dodge 2 times and after the heal skill have 1s of evade(mirage cloak) + another dodge available and the other half of dodge bar recharging fast because of vigor. You can understand that if you add to this Elusive Mind, there's no possible way someone can cc and burst you even a bit since you're already out of the stun and evading, this remove any counterplay to mesmer. Basically there's not way to lock down a mesmer with this capabilities and the high mobility, and leads to classic combat style of kiting for ages.

>

> **False Oasis**: Vigor and a Mirage Cloak together+ heal. I think one of the 2 should be removed, and increased the heal amount. But maybe with nerf to Rune of Adventurer might be too much.

>

> **Elusive Mind**: No class should be able to breakstun while dodging. Rework this trait. Mirage already have from mesmer skills plenty of breakstun skills, it shouldn't get more with no cooldown on it. They have already Signet of Midnight, blink, decoy, Mirror Images and as a new utility Sand Through Glass which is an evade+ break stun skill with movement attached to it and leaves even a mirror to gain a mirage cloak, which leads to another 1s of dodging.

>

> It would be a good way to promote skillful gameplay if mirror that gives Mirage Cloak(1s of evade) wouldn't be given for free by using a utility but maybe tied to attack actions, for example reach x amount of torment spawn mirror or stacks 3+ condis on your enemy spawn a mirage mirror. This examples are way for condi builds to benefit from mirage cloak, but someone could design ways for power builds to get them too by skillful actions.

>

> Now about the condition builds of Mesmer in general, which ties also to Mirage:

>

> As we all know the main damaging condition for mesmer are Torment, Burning and Confusion which are generally covered with blind,cripple and bleeding or when using staff also weakness, chill and poison. In some cases with rights trait, many skills of mesmer can create multiple condition that if stacked can result in pretty devastating combos. I'm talking about the **Ineptitude** trait from Dueling trait line, this one infact adds stacks to confusion when blinding a target also. In the current condi meta build Carrion Ineptitude, this trait gives confusion to torch skill **The Prestige**, **Blinding Dissipation** (which should receive an internal cooldown in my opinion) from dueling trailine and **Signet of Midnight**(which has a blind that's unblockable). I'd like an increased cooldown or 1 stack reduced to this trait, because in my opinion blind on confusion frequent like this on 3s, might be one of the causes to a lot of high stacking Confusion, it's pretty easy to reach 15+ stacks that coupled with the other condis are in some cases though to survive. This nerf might not be needed if torch skills are addressed in a proper way.

>

> **The Prestige** and **Phatasmal Mage** both benefith from The Pledge trait of Illusions trait line, that gives an additional burn stack to this 2 skills and reduce their cooldown. This torch's skills are used chained together which leads with the trait to 10 stacks of burning + 3stacks of confusion on torch5 + 2 stacks of confusion on blind from ineptitude on torch 4. I think it might be good a shave of 1 stack of burning from each skill, just to keep dmg in check. Since if you couple this skills with the ambush skill of staff Chaos Vortex or staff auto can lead to devastating burning damage. I propose to remove the 1 stack of burning on torch 5 from the part of the skill casted by the player and not the phantasm.

>

> I repeat I'm not a pro mesmer/mirage player and I dont want to gut the class, this was a list of things that should be tested and not implemented together. I want mesmer and mirage to both be playable, but I'd like to see Mirage especially less forgiving on mistakes done by the player, because right now it can carry even bad players.

>

>

>

>

>

>

 

If the Torch skills didn't have the most obvious telegraphs in the world I'd agree with the entire post. Blinding Dissipation & Ineptitude are far more important to address than Torch. And staff? Really, either RNG or one of the slowest projectiles in the world for burning and you think that can be 'devastating'.

[TwiceDead.1963]

> @"Kicast.1459" said:

> meanwhile 4 necros in every games is clearly the sign that mesmer is the problem.

 

One massive mistake doesn't make another huge mistake okay.

[NecroSummonsMors.7816]

> @"EpicTurtle.8571" said:

> If the Torch skills didn't have the most obvious telegraphs in the world I'd agree with the entire post. Blinding Dissipation & Ineptitude are far more important to address than Torch. And staff? Really, either RNG or one of the slowest projectiles in the world for burning and you think that can be 'devastating'.

 

Obiovusly I'm not saying staff alone is devastating, I intend the combo of the torch skills + the sustained burning of staff can be that. The prestige is instant in both it's part since it's instant stealth and when you get out there's no casting and the burning is applied instantly. Phatasmal Mage is 3/4 of s as cast time, it's not that long, but I can understand the animation of the phatasm has an obvious tell. Infact that phantasm might need a faster cast time in case of a nerf of burning stacks.

[PopDaGod.9346]

**Mesmer are PERFECTLY BALANCE.....

**

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

said no one ever B)

[EpicTurtle.8571]

> @"NecroSummonsMors.7816" said:

> > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said:

> > If the Torch skills didn't have the most obvious telegraphs in the world I'd agree with the entire post. Blinding Dissipation & Ineptitude are far more important to address than Torch. And staff? Really, either RNG or one of the slowest projectiles in the world for burning and you think that can be 'devastating'.

>

> Obiovusly I'm not saying staff alone is devastating, I intend the combo of the torch skills + the sustained burning of staff can be that. The prestige is instant in both it's part since it's instant stealth and when you get out there's no casting and the burning is applied instantly. Phatasmal Mage is 3/4 of s as cast time, it's not that long, but I can understand the animation of the phatasm has an obvious tell. Infact that phantasm might need a faster cast time in case of a nerf of burning stacks.

 

The Prestige being 'instant' is misleading. It's a fairly noticeable disappearance from view and then you have a solid 3 seconds to prepare a defense, that's highly telegraphed. If it applied all 3 effects simultaneously then you could consider it instant. Phantasmal Mage is 3/4 seconds true, and it's point blank, and it's a staff animation on a one handed/off hand weapon set, and the phantasm has a very obvious 1 second floating into the air 'look at me' cast time. The 'sustained burning' of staff is literally only with ambush. Mentioning the AA is pointless since it's RNG.

[EpicTurtle.8571]

> @"Huskyboy.1053" said:

> > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said:

> > > @"mrauls.6519" said:

> > > One nerf would change it all... Make it so they CANNOT do any action during their "evade" that they normally couldn't do

> >

> > That wouldn't work unless they also replaced Ambushes, which is very unlikely.

>

> They don't need to replace Ambushes, they just need to grant Mirror Cloak on a different condition than a dodge. For example landing 5 consecutive hits with any offensive skill (i.e. not missing or being evaded). That's just one suggestion, you could get Mirror Cloak under any arbitrary condition, doesn't have to be dodges.

 

People already complain about our '1000's of evades' and Mirage Cloak is only on dodge and a few utility skills currently. Being able to gain Mirage Cloak on some sort of passive trigger would only make it worse.

[Huskyboy.1053]

> @"EpicTurtle.8571" said:

> > @"Huskyboy.1053" said:

> > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said:

> > > > @"mrauls.6519" said:

> > > > One nerf would change it all... Make it so they CANNOT do any action during their "evade" that they normally couldn't do

> > >

> > > That wouldn't work unless they also replaced Ambushes, which is very unlikely.

> >

> > They don't need to replace Ambushes, they just need to grant Mirror Cloak on a different condition than a dodge. For example landing 5 consecutive hits with any offensive skill (i.e. not missing or being evaded). That's just one suggestion, you could get Mirror Cloak under any arbitrary condition, doesn't have to be dodges.

>

> People already complain about our '1000's of evades' and Mirage Cloak is only on dodge and a few utility skills currently. Being able to gain Mirage Cloak on some sort of passive trigger would only make it worse.

 

I don't really agree that landing 5 consecutive hits is a "passive" trigger since it requires repeated intentional actions in order to make it happen, but... I see your point about not wanting to spam Mirage Cloak. Imo we should just get rid of Mirage Cloak's evade altogether. There's no reason I need to be able to passively dodge AND access Ambush skills at the same time, they're completely unrelated concepts. Mirage has lots of Vigor access so it's already getting more dodges than core or Chrono mes.

[saerni.2584]

Removing the ability to dodge while immobilized or stunned (without EM) solves a lot of issues. Mirage’s class mechanic is attacking while evading but that doesn’t require it always having access to evade regardless of what the other player does.

 

The rest is fine. The reason is that a mirage can be focused down like any other class in group situations because the damage is appropriate. It’s just 1v1 where it becomes heavy handed because overcoming a mirage’s defenses is more than most builds can handle 1v1 while taking the full focus of the mirage’s offense.

[EpicTurtle.8571]

> @"Huskyboy.1053" said:

> > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said:

> > > @"Huskyboy.1053" said:

> > > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said:

> > > > > @"mrauls.6519" said:

> > > > > One nerf would change it all... Make it so they CANNOT do any action during their "evade" that they normally couldn't do

> > > >

> > > > That wouldn't work unless they also replaced Ambushes, which is very unlikely.

> > >

> > > They don't need to replace Ambushes, they just need to grant Mirror Cloak on a different condition than a dodge. For example landing 5 consecutive hits with any offensive skill (i.e. not missing or being evaded). That's just one suggestion, you could get Mirror Cloak under any arbitrary condition, doesn't have to be dodges.

> >

> > People already complain about our '1000's of evades' and Mirage Cloak is only on dodge and a few utility skills currently. Being able to gain Mirage Cloak on some sort of passive trigger would only make it worse.

>

> I don't really agree that landing 5 consecutive hits is a "passive" trigger since it requires repeated intentional actions in order to make it happen, but... I see your point about not wanting to spam Mirage Cloak. Imo we should just get rid of Mirage Cloak's evade altogether. There's no reason I need to be able to passively dodge AND access Ambush skills at the same time, they're completely unrelated concepts. Mirage has lots of Vigor access so it's already getting more dodges than core or Chrono mes.

 

Oh I agree, tying an offensive skill to a defensive skill that's on a relatively low cool down generally doesn't work. It's essentially the same concept as Full Counter except the evade lasts an entire second and the offensive portion happens regardless of what the other player does. And there's not really a counter play to an inevitability. Although I doubt that'll get changed any time soon seeing as it's a core design mechanic of the specialization. This also explains the vigor access since a huge amount of Mirage's damage is tied to being able to dodge frequently. I proposed something a long time ago that they should've just had Mirage change phantasm skills to something else where your clones would each perform the same skill as the Mesmer since the whole concept of Mirage seemed more like hiding among the clones according to the preview trailer.