Miellyn.6847 Posted June 5, 2018 Share Posted June 5, 2018 > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > @"Miellyn.6847" said: > > Fractals *are* PvE. > > Yeah, and WvW is PvP. sPvP and WvW use a different ruleset with different equipment, runes, food. We already had that. Fractals uses the same as open world (you can't even complain about blacklion boosters, they work in fractals). Can you stop the trolling at this point now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ohoni.6057 Posted June 5, 2018 Share Posted June 5, 2018 > @"Miellyn.6847" said: > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > @"Miellyn.6847" said: > > > Fractals *are* PvE. > > > > Yeah, and WvW is PvP. > sPvP and WvW use a different ruleset with different equipment, runes, food. We already had that. Fractals uses the same as open world (you can't even complain about blacklion boosters, they work in fractals). > Can you stop the trolling at this point now? A disagreement should not be confused with trolling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miellyn.6847 Posted June 5, 2018 Share Posted June 5, 2018 > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > @"Miellyn.6847" said: > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > @"Miellyn.6847" said: > > > > Fractals *are* PvE. > > > > > > Yeah, and WvW is PvP. > > sPvP and WvW use a different ruleset with different equipment, runes, food. We already had that. Fractals uses the same as open world (you can't even complain about blacklion boosters, they work in fractals). > > Can you stop the trolling at this point now? > > A disagreement should not be confused with trolling. Saying that fractals are not PvE is trolling. There is no subjective opinion on that. PvE is defined and fractals are the very definition of PvE. Or do I play against other players in fractals? It is also PvE designed the way you like it. Difficulty tiers, extremly easy first tier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mortrialus.3062 Posted June 5, 2018 Share Posted June 5, 2018 > @"Miellyn.6847" said: > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > @"Miellyn.6847" said: > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > > @"Miellyn.6847" said: > > > > > Fractals *are* PvE. > > > > > > > > Yeah, and WvW is PvP. > > > sPvP and WvW use a different ruleset with different equipment, runes, food. We already had that. Fractals uses the same as open world (you can't even complain about blacklion boosters, they work in fractals). > > > Can you stop the trolling at this point now? > > > > A disagreement should not be confused with trolling. > > Saying that fractals are not PvE is trolling. There is no subjective opinion on that. PvE is defined and fractals are the very definition of PvE. Or do I play against other players in fractals? > It is also PvE designed the way you like it. Difficulty tiers, extremly easy first tier. Whenever I pug a fractal I feel like I'm playing against other players. *Badumtish* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flog.3485 Posted June 5, 2018 Share Posted June 5, 2018 > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > @"Miellyn.6847" said: > > Fractals *are* PvE. > > Yeah, and WvW is PvP. > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > Making a token of achievement available through generic grind. That robs all the meaning and value from it, effectively nullifying the achievement. How can that be respectful to the achievement or those who did it? > > > > > > > > > > It's already a generic grind and not a token of achievement. > > > > > > > > Very well, then you have nothing to complain about. Go ahead and grind it. > > > > > > Like I said, I couldn't enjoy that. I don't play content I don't enjoy. My complaints will continue until they make an enjoyable mode available. > > > > That's arbitrary and subjective. > > It is. It's a game, pretty much everything is arbitrary and subjective, including your insistence that raiders "own" the entire concept of Envoy armor and must be satisfied in any decision made about them. Again, it's a game, there's no point if you aren't having fun. I'm pushing for an easy mode because I would like to actually *enjoy* raiding, not merely "endure" it. If it is a game and pretty much anything is arbitrary and subjective, why don’t you respect the arbitrary and subjective view of developers to lock the PvE legendary skin armor behind raids in the first place ? At least respect the developer intent to lock, for the most part, one skin to one type of content. Enjoying the raids is to beat a challenge in a 10 man party, not to (mindlessly, to some extent) spam your skills in a quite easy fight like in open world. If it becomes as easy as open world PvE, then it is no longer a raid but rather a glorified dungeon (knowing that we already have some raid encounters that are really not raid-difficult). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ButcherofMalakir.4067 Posted June 5, 2018 Share Posted June 5, 2018 Raids are well designet but you are not the target for them. Its not that raids make players toxic/elitist. They are made for this kind of players. They are made for players which want challange. Every group based part of gw2 encourage elitism if you want to participate at the highest level. Why should I carry someone if I can find a player on same skill level and have more fun (since it is more smooth with him - my goal). The reason why you find more of that in raids is that fights take longer and if one player fails you usualy have to start from the begining so you lose more time from it. It is the cost of harder content. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ohoni.6057 Posted June 5, 2018 Share Posted June 5, 2018 > @"Miellyn.6847" said: > Saying that fractals are not PvE is trolling. Only to the same degree that saying that they *are* would be trolling. We disagree on this point. I consider Fractals to be instanced content, like Dungeons, Raids, and sPvP, as distinct from the open world PvE that makes this game as sPvP is from WvW. >PvE is defined and fractals are the very definition of PvE. Or do I play against other players in fractals? Do you play against other players in WvW? Because if you did, that would make it PvP. >It is also PvE designed the way you like it. Difficulty tiers, extremly easy first tier. Yes, but I don't do Fractals because of the Agony business. I don't want to have to put AR gear together. > @"flog.3485" said: >If it is a game and pretty much anything is arbitrary and subjective, why don’t you respect the arbitrary and subjective view of developers to lock the PvE legendary skin armor behind raids in the first place ? Why should I? I'm a customer. If there are ways that I feel that they could improve their game for myself and players like me, then I owe it to them to press my case on the matter. The more customers they can make more happy, the more money gets spent on their game. It isn't like WoW where the only goal is to keep players *just* satisified that they don't unsubscribe. They have to keep players happy enough that they *want* to give them *more* money. >Enjoying the raids is to beat a challenge in a 10 man party, not to (mindlessly, to some extent) spam your skills in a quite easy fight like in open world. That seems to be what *you* enjoy about them, and that's fine. I fully expect the existing raids to continue existing, untouched, and you can keep playing them. Not everyone enjoys that sort of thing though, so it shouldn't be the *only* option available. >If it becomes as easy as open world PvE, then it is no longer a raid but rather a glorified dungeon (knowing that we already have some raid encounters that are really not raid-difficult). Ok. I don't really care what you call it, so long as it takes place on the raid maps, carries the same encounters and story elements, and provides path to the Envoy armor. > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said: > Raids are well designet but you are not the target for them. But I am a target audience for the game itself, considering that I've bought the original game, the expansions, and plenty of gems in between. The mode itself cannot be fully successful if it is alienating to core portions of their overall audience. It's like if a restaurant serves a Limburger cheeseburger, and the people who like it *love* it, but everyone else is driven back by the smell of it, and end up less satisfied customers, you can't call that burger "a success" just because the guy who ordered it enjoyed it. >Why should I carry someone if I can find a player on same skill level and have more fun (since it is more smooth with him - my goal). The reason why you find more of that in raids is that fights take longer and if one player fails you usualy have to start from the begining so you lose more time from it. It is the cost of harder content. Yeah, I 100% understand and *agree* with that philosophy, *for the content, as it currently exists.* I'm just pointing out that there should be an alternative, where such issues shouldn't be a concern, and players can just hop in and enjoy it without having to worry about "newbs holding them back." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flog.3485 Posted June 5, 2018 Share Posted June 5, 2018 @"Ohoni.6057" Lol I am not even a raider myself, all I play is open world. I see no value in content that provides the same experience that I can have in open world without having to deal with some of toxicity that will happen, no matter what, in restrictive parties. What do you believe ? You think people will suddenly stop being toxic altogether because the content has been made easier ? Dungeon history does not prove that. Why do you mention WoW ? I never mentioned WoW. I could not care less with how WoW designed raids. Here we are talking GW2 retention of players, veterans and new players alike. You don’t retain players if the content is too easy or if you make content that was deemed to be hard, have an easy version of it, or have this supposedly hard content become trivialized (see dungeons again). As for the money argument. You are wrong again. Anet makes money with or without raids. I am pretty sure they made good money out of mount skins despite all the controversy behind loot boxes gamble, because if they didn’t, they would have abandoned the pricing model altogether. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miellyn.6847 Posted June 5, 2018 Share Posted June 5, 2018 > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > @"Miellyn.6847" said: > > Saying that fractals are not PvE is trolling. > > Only to the same degree that saying that they *are* would be trolling. We disagree on this point. I consider Fractals to be instanced content, like Dungeons, Raids, and sPvP, as distinct from the open world PvE that makes this game as sPvP is from WvW. > So Fractals uses different balancing, equipment, food, runes than open world? If not sPvP and WvW are completely different. If yes, yeah fracals are their own game mode and not PvE. But they don't so they are PvE. > >PvE is defined and fractals are the very definition of PvE. Or do I play against other players in fractals? > > Do you play against other players in WvW? Because if you did, that would make it PvP. > Yes it is partly PvP. But not sPvP because different ruleset. > >It is also PvE designed the way you like it. Difficulty tiers, extremly easy first tier. > > Yes, but I don't do Fractals because of the Agony business. I don't want to have to put AR gear together. Not for the first tier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotOverlyCheesy.9427 Posted June 5, 2018 Share Posted June 5, 2018 > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > @"Miellyn.6847" said: > > Saying that fractals are not PvE is trolling. > > Only to the same degree that saying that they *are* would be trolling. We disagree on this point. I consider Fractals to be instanced content, like Dungeons, Raids, and sPvP, as distinct from the open world PvE that makes this game as sPvP is from WvW. > > >PvE is defined and fractals are the very definition of PvE. Or do I play against other players in fractals? > > Do you play against other players in WvW? Because if you did, that would make it PvP. > > >It is also PvE designed the way you like it. Difficulty tiers, extremly easy first tier. > > Yes, but I don't do Fractals because of the Agony business. I don't want to have to put AR gear together. > By that logic all story instances are also not PvE. Just because you say something isn't PvE doesn't mean it is as you say. The overwhelming majority would say fractals, raids, story instances and open world are all PvE. You can make a definition between instanced PvE and open world PvE if you want to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RaidsAreEasyAF.8652 Posted June 5, 2018 Share Posted June 5, 2018 "We expect this to be the hardest content we've ever put in the game:" "And we want players to spend a long time working together to figure out how to defeat these challenges." https://www.pcgamer.com/raids-are-coming-to-guild-wars-2-heart-of-thorns/ "These raids are absolutely content that involves a significant amount of planning and coordination to overcome them. That is the goal; that's who the target audience for this content is." "You will need a more structured, coordinated group to overcome content like this, you are going to need to learn how to play with other players" https://www.gamereactor.eu/articles/338083/Raids+in+Guild+Wars+2+Heart+of+Thorns/ "Raids are our answer to what skilled PvE players have to look forward to at endgame—the ultimate test to overcome and defeat." https://heartofthorns.guildwars2.com/game/raids/ Turns out that you probably aren't the target audience. Raids aren't made for everyone and that's fine. PvP tournaments aren't made for everyone. I'll never win one of those tournaments simply because i don't put time into PvP and train. It's never going to happen and that's fine. I dont know why players want to be spoon-fed with everything this game has to offer. Most Pugs don't even ask for ridiculous amounts of LI. I see a lot of 100 to 150LI Groups. You can have 103 LI by now from doing escort since release. I've seen so many SH Training groups this weekend. I've seen a Sabetha Trainingsgroup on Sunday and joined them. The commander didn't know what to do, but we still killed it. This group only had 4 exp players. That group did a Sloth training after this, and they actually succeeded. If you think you are stuck in a training group you, are doing something wrong. Most training groups actually kill the boss in one evening. It's all about you not trying or not wanting to try hard enough. If you don't have a free guild spot, that's fine. There are several discord servers dedicated to teach you stuff. https://snowcrows.com/newtoraids/ You want to join a 150LI group while you only have 100? Join, be honest and ask them if you can stay. Most Pug groups I´ve seen will at least give you a chance. >2. Trainings: what fun is it to have to train for certain content in order to qualify for the real experience?? No other game mode does that. Sure, the more often you play a >certain content, the more routine you show. Fractals kinda do it. You start with T1 and the real experience starts at T4. >But to assume a player cannot get it right (with some directions from the "pros") the first time around is offending one's >intellect and skill. From what I´ve seen from players most of them wont get it right the first time. Why do you make it sound like such a bad thing. You need training if you learn something new. You shouldnt be offended by that. >3. "Save Points": you rarely find a group that does a raid wing from A to Z. It's always a certain boss being named in LFG. Who made up this "save point" design so that >people don't have to play through a whole wing in one go? (I miss the good ol' GW1 FoW/UW elite instance days.) You often see them on Monday, maybe even Tuesday. Also doesnt this point contradict your first one? Isnt it casual friendly to be able to start at a specific boss? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ButcherofMalakir.4067 Posted June 5, 2018 Share Posted June 5, 2018 > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > @"Miellyn.6847" said: > > Saying that fractals are not PvE is trolling. > > Only to the same degree that saying that they *are* would be trolling. We disagree on this point. I consider Fractals to be instanced content, like Dungeons, Raids, and sPvP, as distinct from the open world PvE that makes this game as sPvP is from WvW. > > >PvE is defined and fractals are the very definition of PvE. Or do I play against other players in fractals? > > Do you play against other players in WvW? Because if you did, that would make it PvP. > > >It is also PvE designed the way you like it. Difficulty tiers, extremly easy first tier. > > Yes, but I don't do Fractals because of the Agony business. I don't want to have to put AR gear together. > > > @"flog.3485" said: > >If it is a game and pretty much anything is arbitrary and subjective, why don’t you respect the arbitrary and subjective view of developers to lock the PvE legendary skin armor behind raids in the first place ? > > Why should I? I'm a customer. If there are ways that I feel that they could improve their game for myself and players like me, then I owe it to them to press my case on the matter. The more customers they can make more happy, the more money gets spent on their game. It isn't like WoW where the only goal is to keep players *just* satisified that they don't unsubscribe. They have to keep players happy enough that they *want* to give them *more* money. > > >Enjoying the raids is to beat a challenge in a 10 man party, not to (mindlessly, to some extent) spam your skills in a quite easy fight like in open world. > > That seems to be what *you* enjoy about them, and that's fine. I fully expect the existing raids to continue existing, untouched, and you can keep playing them. Not everyone enjoys that sort of thing though, so it shouldn't be the *only* option available. > > >If it becomes as easy as open world PvE, then it is no longer a raid but rather a glorified dungeon (knowing that we already have some raid encounters that are really not raid-difficult). > > Ok. I don't really care what you call it, so long as it takes place on the raid maps, carries the same encounters and story elements, and provides path to the Envoy armor. > > > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said: > > Raids are well designet but you are not the target for them. > > But I am a target audience for the game itself, considering that I've bought the original game, the expansions, and plenty of gems in between. The mode itself cannot be fully successful if it is alienating to core portions of their overall audience. It's like if a restaurant serves a Limburger cheeseburger, and the people who like it *love* it, but everyone else is driven back by the smell of it, and end up less satisfied customers, you can't call that burger "a success" just because the guy who ordered it enjoyed it. > > >Why should I carry someone if I can find a player on same skill level and have more fun (since it is more smooth with him - my goal). The reason why you find more of that in raids is that fights take longer and if one player fails you usualy have to start from the begining so you lose more time from it. It is the cost of harder content. > > Yeah, I 100% understand and *agree* with that philosophy, *for the content, as it currently exists.* I'm just pointing out that there should be an alternative, where such issues shouldn't be a concern, and players can just hop in and enjoy it without having to worry about "newbs holding them back." Well if I am not the target audience I am sure my friends that got me into game are. They played very casualy from launch yet they hated pvp.and wvw the whole time. Game was designed for them but pvp/wvw was not. Does this mean they were not the target audianve then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ayra Lightbringer.2874 Posted June 5, 2018 Share Posted June 5, 2018 Well they were not the target audience of raids. You are supposed to work to get your raid boss kill, even though the work you actually have to put in is minimal. It takes you about 30 minutes to learn how to do a proper golem rotation and reach about 85% of the Benchmarks. And with that and a video showing you the mechanics you are perfectly equipped to join any trainings group and contribute in a meaningful way. If a person does not want to put in those in total 45 minutes of preparation (if even 45), then they are not the target audience of raids. The target audience of raids are players that want to put in the work at the golem to perfect their rotation, and the time at the bosses to get familiar with each mechanic. If you do not want to do that, Guild Wars 2 offers enough easier content. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Illconceived Was Na.9781 Posted June 5, 2018 Share Posted June 5, 2018 > @"MashMash.1645" said: > Raids are a curious thing in GW2. They are a tacit admission that the game as originally envisioned was a failure. Not in the least. They were an absolute admission that the game lacked something that would attract (and sustain) a certain type of player. ANet said as much. Plus, ANet was already considering adding raids to the game; they just hadn't figured out how to do it ANet style (and they have said as much). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maddoctor.2738 Posted June 5, 2018 Share Posted June 5, 2018 > @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said: > > @"MashMash.1645" said: > > Raids are a curious thing in GW2. They are a tacit admission that the game as originally envisioned was a failure. > Not in the least. They were an absolute admission that the game lacked something that would attract (and sustain) a certain type of player. ANet said as much. > > Plus, ANet was already considering adding raids to the game; they just hadn't figured out how to do it ANet style (and they have said as much). It's also the "promised" content for those that like raids in other mmorpgs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tasty Pudding.3764 Posted June 5, 2018 Share Posted June 5, 2018 > @"RaidsAreEasyAF.8652" said: > "We expect this to be the hardest content we've ever put in the game:" > "And we want players to spend a long time working together to figure out how to defeat these challenges." > "These raids are absolutely content that involves a significant amount of planning and coordination to overcome them. That is the goal; that's who the target audience for this content is." > "You will need a more structured, coordinated group to overcome content like this, you are going to need to learn how to play with other players" > "Raids are our answer to what skilled PvE players have to look forward to at endgame—the ultimate test to overcome and defeat." Except that is not why raiders like raids. Just like your account name: "raids are easy AF". They are not a challenge for you. They are not the ultimate test for you. The reason raiders like raids is... Most players are not skilled enough to beat a raid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CptAurellian.9537 Posted June 5, 2018 Share Posted June 5, 2018 > @"Jeknar.6184" said: > > @"Jojo.6140" said: > > > @"Jeknar.6184" said: > > > I have done all fights except for W5 (which I don't care about nor I ever try to pug), but I'm forced to fake LI/KP's to get in the groups because most of the time people are asking 150-200 LI to do even simple fights like Vale Guardian (:omegalul:). But I can carry my own weight once I'm there, so it's a Win/Win situation for both parts. If I were to show legit LI's or KP's, I would not get a group and that group would still be sitting on LFG waiting a 10th player that can show their "rerquirements". > > > > I dont understand why you would consider 150-200 LI a high amount? The max LI you can have is well over 1.4k already afaik, and you can get much more LI per week now that we already have 5 wings. A 150 LI requirement just shows that you are already doing raids for a few months. > > Maybe 150 isn't high for people who been raiding since HoT, but what about people who decided to try them later on? I currently have only 43LI but I'm pretty sure I can handle my own in anywhere between W1-4 (Except maybe for Xera which I only did twice) and I can even play multiple professions. > > Also, there are 17 encounters currently, which mean that it would take at least 9 weeks of full runs for a new raider to reach 150LI. That if he can get into a raid in the first place because, you know, "requirements"... As you said, 150 LI are minimum 9 weeks. That's not particularly much, especially when even a mediocre group can do a full-clear in ~3 hours. I started GW2 raiding little more than a year ago and currently I'm sitting at something like 550 LI. Concerning the requirements, I can only repeat myself: get a proper group. That may take some time depending on how lucky you are and how well you judge groups you join. But if you are a halfway competent player and put in a bit of effort, LI/KP requirements become irrelevant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vesica tempestas.1563 Posted June 5, 2018 Share Posted June 5, 2018 > @"Sarrs.4831" said: > > @"Ashantara.8731" said: > > **2. Trainings:** what fun is it to have to _train_ for certain content in order to qualify for the real experience?? No other game mode does that. Sure, the more often you play a certain content, the more routine you show. But to assume a player cannot get it right (with some directions from the "pros") the first time around is offending one's intellect and skill. > > Progression raiding is an insane amount of fun. ^^ for people who like the form of raid where you repeat a fight over and over and over and over and over and over while a raid leader orchestrates you like a bunch of automatons until all the patterns are burnt into your muscle memory. Many of us have seen that and done that a decade ago and are simply looking for more relaxed 10 man where you can enjoy the camaraderie and group play without the stressing and repetition. Horses for courses, but unfortunately there's only 1 course available at the moment at this venue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neutra.6857 Posted June 5, 2018 Share Posted June 5, 2018 > @"Tasty Pudding.3764" said: > > @"RaidsAreEasyAF.8652" said: > > "We expect this to be the hardest content we've ever put in the game:" > > "And we want players to spend a long time working together to figure out how to defeat these challenges." > > "These raids are absolutely content that involves a significant amount of planning and coordination to overcome them. That is the goal; that's who the target audience for this content is." > > "You will need a more structured, coordinated group to overcome content like this, you are going to need to learn how to play with other players" > > "Raids are our answer to what skilled PvE players have to look forward to at endgame—the ultimate test to overcome and defeat." > > Except that is not why raiders like raids. Just like your account name: "raids are easy AF". They are not a challenge for you. They are not the ultimate test for you. The reason raiders like raids is... > Most players are not skilled enough to beat a raid. When in a good group raiding is pretty easy, even for the more difficult roles. It is not fun because other's can't beat them, it is fun since I get to play with a group of people over voice chat, and laugh when we do something stupid, or have fun talking about random nonsense, all while playing content that is more difficult then any other PvE content in game save fractals (which I also do). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STIHL.2489 Posted June 5, 2018 Share Posted June 5, 2018 > @"Miellyn.6847" said: > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > @"Miellyn.6847" said: > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > > > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > > Have you considered that maybe raids just aren't for you? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Have you considered that Raids just don't belong in a game like GW2 ? > > > > > > > > > > > > If dungeons hadn't failed at what they were supposed to be, the penultimate challenge for pve, then I'd be inclined to ageee with you. > > > > > > > > > > They were the penultimate challenge for PvE, and succeeded at that, it's just that *some* players wanted even *more* challenge. That doesn't mean that they were right. > > > > > > > > This.. Explorer Dungeons were a grand challenge when I started playing, and so much so.. outside static groups, no one wanted to do Araha, so they really did succeed at their goal with that. > > > > > > > > Fractals were a failure that needed to be revised and toned down a huge amount, and then toned up and then toned down.. and.. yah.. still kinda messed up to be honest. > > > > > > > > Why they went and put in 10 person raids, when Dungeons were still doing pretty good and Fractals were always in need of fine tuning.. is beyond me. > > > > > > > > It has and will continue to hurt them tho, and to the new people here from Bless.. good luck with the raids. > > > > > > Are we playing the same game? Dungeons were still doing good? They ware abaddoned 2 years before raids were added. The only reason they were semi-alive were their liquid rewards. They died within days after the 'nerf'. > > > > > > Dungeons were a challenge because people were unfamiliar with the game systems. The challenge didn't last long. People get better at games you know? > > > > And that is why Raids will fail just as swiftly, content is only a challenge till the trick to beating it is worked out, then it becomes an easy repeatable grind, making Raids today no Harder then Dungeons were at the start. Raids are only a challenge to people that don't know the mechanics, just like Dungeons. > > > > And Raids would die just as swiftly if their rewards got nerfed, So spare me the tripe. > > > > The only real difference is that Raids seems they have more toxic elitism attached to them.. because.. they are raids. > > > > It was a mistake to put them in, it was a mistake to try and revise the classes through elite spec to make a 'trinity' like game play.. all in all Raids are oa huge catastrophic failure of an addition to this game. > > > > The only good new is Bless had a really bad launch. > > There is a really important difference between raids and dungeons. In dungeons bosses died before they could use even a single skill (Lupi is an exception). In raids you still have to pay attention or you can wipe. They will never be as easy as dungeons were and they are a lot harder when you play them for the first time. > Raids are already alive for longer than dungeons were. So much for dieing as swiftly as dungeons. > Dungeons were alive and being run constantly from Launch 2012 till their Loot Was nerfed in 2016, and still have a following among some die hard players that want them brought back to life. Raids have been around 2015 to current 2018.. Dungeons 4 years solid till their loot was Nerfed., Raids have only been around for 3 years.. I think your math is off there. Also.. Yah.. Nerf the rewards for Raids and see how long they last.. I give them a week.. tops. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STIHL.2489 Posted June 5, 2018 Share Posted June 5, 2018 > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm "toxic" for trying to be inclusive of as many different playstyles as possible? Pull the other one. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You are being toxic for disrespecting the time of other players. Nobody owes you anything :) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I agree, I'm not asking for any of their time. I'm asking for an alternate mode where players like me can play without bothering them. How is that not respecting their time? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Wanting to nullify months of effort strikes me as pretty disrespectful. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Eh? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If they provided an easy mode and made the Envoy armor take longer to obtain, that would be disrespectful? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes. > > > > > > > > > > > > I don’t see it... > > > > > > > > > > Making a token of achievement available through generic grind. That robs all the meaning and value from it, effectively nullifying the achievement. How can that be respectful to the achievement or those who did it? > > > > > > > > Doesn’t this happen naturally with time anyways? > > > > > > No. > > > > I honestly don’t see the big deal. It’s not like I’m robbing you of the experience. > > > > Well, I don't see the big deal of not getting a bunch of pixels in a video game either. But this doesn't stop some people from arguing for months over it. If you didn't have such a **huge issue** with it.. you wouldn't be arguing against them getting it.. for months now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TexZero.7910 Posted June 6, 2018 Share Posted June 6, 2018 There's a lot wrong with raid design. The things listed here however aren't among them as they are all community created issues and not content related design issues. AI for raids is in it's infancy, same with encounter design. Everything follows a strict gameplay loop with very limited "variance" turning raids into pattern recognition instead. This limits how challenging they can be because it ceases being about each individuals skill elevating to the fights requirements and says as long as you have the requisite pieces you'll succeed. Additionally there's a heavy emphasis on creating cool looking mechanics that are unique to bosses but this leads us to having inconsistent skill reactions. Things that should reflect don't etc... It would be nice if they took things down the GW1 route, you can have unique but you need to have them unique in animation only, with them being consistent to their player based counterparts. Put the emphasis on player skill countering actions not just have a sole focus on dps'ing to skip/transition. Then there's the arena issue most of them can be described as nothing more than a box. While later fights have somewhat fixed this (Deimos) it really inhibits what design can do because they're too worried about players cheesing something by hiding ontop of/behind objects instead of properly incorporating 3D space into the fights. These are just some of the glaring design issues i can point to that make raids not as attractive as they could be both in terms of gameplay and the narrative encounter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ohoni.6057 Posted June 6, 2018 Share Posted June 6, 2018 > @"flog.3485" said: >Lol I am not even a raider myself, all I play is open world. I see no value in content that provides the same experience that I can have in open world without having to deal with some of toxicity that will happen, no matter what, in restrictive parties. What do you believe ? You think people will suddenly stop being toxic altogether because the content has been made easier ? Dungeon history does not prove that. Back when dungeons were at their peak, you would have toxic groups, but you would also have plenty of non-toxic groups, and no trouble finding one. The thing is, when content is designed and balanced in such a way that having bad players greatly increases the odds that the entire evening will *fail,* toxicity is inevitable and *natural* to the process. You are *rewarded* for kicking out anyone who might cause you trouble. If, on the other hand, the content is easy enough to carry that a bad player or few aren't likely to cause the entire event to fail, then players are much more forgiving of inefficiency. If the difference is just "with a bad player on board, we might take 15 minutes longer to clear this," then most groups would shrug and move on, rather than kick and try to find new people. > @"Miellyn.6847" said: >So Fractals uses different balancing, equipment, food, runes than open world? Yes. You need AR gearing, Fractal potions, it's a very different play experience than open world PvE content. >Not for the first tier. Yes, and I've done those, but they get boring, and most of the rewards are not available in the first tier. If they made it so that the first tier offered everything the later one did, just in smaller amounts, so that you could meaningfully progress towards "endgame" without having to leave the first tier, then Fractals would be a far more complete experience. > @"TexZero.7910" said: > There's a lot wrong with raid design. The things listed here however aren't among them as they are all community created issues and not content related design issues. All community issues stem from design issues. A game develops its own community, not the other way around. If players behave a certain way, it's because the wau the content is designed encourages that behavior. It's one of the reasons that the *general* GW2 community is one of the best in gaming, because the *general* GW2 environment encourages positive player interactions. The raiding community is the exception to this (and also PvP, but I can't imagine a positive PvP community). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miellyn.6847 Posted June 6, 2018 Share Posted June 6, 2018 > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > @"Miellyn.6847" said: > >So Fractals uses different balancing, equipment, food, runes than open world? > > Yes. You need AR gearing, Fractal potions, it's a very different play experience than open world PvE content. Only for T2 onwards. But that's not for you anyway. How did we finish fractals before the introduction of potions if they are mandatory? > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > Dungeons were alive and being run constantly from Launch 2012 till their Loot Was nerfed in 2016, and still have a following among some die hard players that want them brought back to life. > > Raids have been around 2015 to current 2018.. > > Dungeons 4 years solid till their loot was Nerfed., Raids have only been around for 3 years.. I think your math is off there. > > Also.. Yah.. Nerf the rewards for Raids and see how long they last.. I give them a week.. tops. Dungeon rewards got nerfed with HoT release and buffed even higher than before in April 2016 (5g/8 dungeons + more token). Dungeons are just dead because they are boring and there are things that reward more. They would have died anyway with HoT release without the nerf. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RaidsAreEasyAF.8652 Posted June 6, 2018 Share Posted June 6, 2018 > @"Tasty Pudding.3764" said: > Except that is not why raiders like raids. Just like your account name: "raids are easy AF". They are not a challenge for you. They are not the ultimate test for you. The reason raiders like raids is... This Account was created after W4 was created simply to mock the non existing difficulty of W4. Encounters become easier if you clear them multiple times a week. That's natural. I'd think that Dhuum CM was and still is challenging. > Most players are not skilled enough to beat a raid. That's not why I like raids, but thank you for assuming anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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