My opinion about raids

[Jeknar.6184]

> @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > @"AnariiUK.7409" said:

> > > @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > > > @"AnariiUK.7409" said:

> > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > > > > > @"AnariiUK.7409" said:

> > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > > > > > > The only content in this game that survived with poor rewards is WvW.. because unlike scripted easy to reproduce encounters like PvE.. WvW was in fact _good_ challenging group based combat, and the only content that people played legit for the fun of it.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > If you think WvW is the only thing that people play purely for fun, then you're sadly mistaken.

> > > > >

> > > > > ok.. go for it.. name a content that gives a net fiscal loss and had no special skins directly linked to it, that players were passionate about and played regularly.. I won't wait forever for your response.. but you will take that long to find it..

> > > >

> > > > Uh, raids after the first clear each week...

> > > >

> > > > 1. You spend a ton of money on food.

> > > > 2. You gain no drops, no shards or currency of any kind.

> > > > 3. You get a few greens/blues to salvage.

> > > >

> > > > Yet players are clearing raids multiple times per week, usually just for fun/for the challenge.

> > >

> > > Buhahahahha.. yah.. nope.

> >

> > Well, given your responses, it's pretty clear you have some weird WvW agenda so I'll leave it here then.

> >

> > Regardless, look outside of your own box every once in while, you might find that people actually enjoy things you don't.

>

> No agenda.. just truth. If they nerfed the rewards in raids, the content would be dead in under a week.

 

RIP dungeons...

[Turin.6921]

> @"STIHL.2489" said:

> Buhahahahha.. yah.. nope.

 

You are blatantly wrong meaning that you never really had any experience with the raiding community. Many raiders play and kills bosses multiple times a week for the same reason people play WvW even with bad rewards. They have fun playing with other people and helping them getting their clears. The reward is social. From training groups to statics people kill bosses multiple times a week with absolutely no rewards for the fun of it.

 

I am not so arrogant as to pretend i know exactly what would happen if the rewards were nerfed, but the criteria you are using for your conclusion are just factually wrong.

[Saint Sated.2698]

Hello, I'd like to weigh in on this subject.

I played a lot of UW, FoW, and DoA in gw1 with my old guild. There were speed clearers offering kills and bypasses at certain parts. The "elite" 1% that were speed clearers set the community standards when it came to what was viable and where. That said, there was a lot more variation in the classes and builds you could play to beat the content (and not in a speed clearing fashion), and the 1% recognized that. If they were speed clearing, it was stated in the search, and therefor only speed clearing builds were accepted. There were plenty of people, however, that wouldn't rag on non speed clearing builds.

 

A big difference I've seen in gw2 is that the 1% here have led the rest to believe that viable =/= best, and that is certainly NOT the description of viable. Anything that isn't posted on SC's website isn't allowed in raids in gw2. Raiding doesn't have to consist of speed clearing, and I don't think Anet is to blame. It's the community of sheep.

Enrage timers are hardly a problem, so why the rush? Why can't casuals experience this game mode? If we wipe - we wipe. Then we regroup and restart. Same as in gw1.

 

Tldr: Gw2's "1%" that sets the mark for speed clearing end game PvE content is toxic for the community as a whole because they spread lies that "this won't work in raids / not viable" and the community follows suit, telling newcomers what their overlords have decided is the ONLY way to play this content.

[mortrialus.3062]

> @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > @"AnariiUK.7409" said:

> > > @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > > > @"AnariiUK.7409" said:

> > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > > > > > @"AnariiUK.7409" said:

> > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > > > > > > The only content in this game that survived with poor rewards is WvW.. because unlike scripted easy to reproduce encounters like PvE.. WvW was in fact _good_ challenging group based combat, and the only content that people played legit for the fun of it.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > If you think WvW is the only thing that people play purely for fun, then you're sadly mistaken.

> > > > >

> > > > > ok.. go for it.. name a content that gives a net fiscal loss and had no special skins directly linked to it, that players were passionate about and played regularly.. I won't wait forever for your response.. but you will take that long to find it..

> > > >

> > > > Uh, raids after the first clear each week...

> > > >

> > > > 1. You spend a ton of money on food.

> > > > 2. You gain no drops, no shards or currency of any kind.

> > > > 3. You get a few greens/blues to salvage.

> > > >

> > > > Yet players are clearing raids multiple times per week, usually just for fun/for the challenge.

> > >

> > > Buhahahahha.. yah.. nope.

> >

> > Well, given your responses, it's pretty clear you have some weird WvW agenda so I'll leave it here then.

> >

> > Regardless, look outside of your own box every once in while, you might find that people actually enjoy things you don't.

>

> No agenda.. just truth. If they nerfed the rewards in raids, the content would be dead in under a week.

 

If they nerfed the rewards for anything hard or casual the content is going to die. You don't see a lot of people farming frost trolls in Frostgorge Sound for Powerful Blood anymore either. That doesn't invalidate casuals or content for casuals.

[mortrialus.3062]

If you want to see badly designed look back at the community reaction to Tequatl and Triple Trouble back on release when they were the hardest things ever added to the game before power creep made them trivial. You had 2 hour waits between attempts, you had to fight server populations, guesting to servers, and the overflow system. On top of never having the same players doing kill attempts with you and no control over the people you were playing with. Nt to mention scaling bugs causing the boss that should have 3 million health to have 13 million health.

 

Raids fixed all of that. They're amazing.

[Blocki.4931]

I don't think WvW rewards are THAT terrible honestly. You're not going to get tons of liquid gold from it, but it's the fastest way of earning dozens of unidentified dyes, you have tons of bags that EACH have a chance of an ascended item and you always work towards something at least passively in the form of skirmish tickets by just playing.

 

So that argument doesn't really count.

 

I'm thankful that Raids exist the way they do and I hope they continue to be a nice, optional challenge that is rewarding if you do go to the lengths required to beat them (and continue doing so too)

[Tyson.5160]

> @"Blocki.4931" said:

> I don't think WvW rewards are THAT terrible honestly. You're not going to get tons of liquid gold from it, but it's the fastest way of earning dozens of unidentified dyes, you have tons of bags that EACH have a chance of an ascended item and you always work towards something at least passively in the form of skirmish tickets by just playing.

>

> So that argument doesn't really count.

>

> I'm thankful that Raids exist the way they do and I hope they continue to be a nice, optional challenge that is rewarding if you do go to the lengths required to beat them (and continue doing so too)

 

> @"Blocki.4931" said:

> I don't think WvW rewards are THAT terrible honestly. You're not going to get tons of liquid gold from it, but it's the fastest way of earning dozens of unidentified dyes, you have tons of bags that EACH have a chance of an ascended item and you always work towards something at least passively in the form of skirmish tickets by just playing.

>

> So that argument doesn't really count.

>

> I'm thankful that Raids exist the way they do and I hope they continue to be a nice, optional challenge that is rewarding if you do go to the lengths required to beat them (and continue doing so too)

 

I like farming PvP and WvW for free clovers.

[STIHL.2489]

> @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > > @"AnariiUK.7409" said:

> > > > @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > > > > @"AnariiUK.7409" said:

> > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > > > > > > @"AnariiUK.7409" said:

> > > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > > > > > > > The only content in this game that survived with poor rewards is WvW.. because unlike scripted easy to reproduce encounters like PvE.. WvW was in fact _good_ challenging group based combat, and the only content that people played legit for the fun of it.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > If you think WvW is the only thing that people play purely for fun, then you're sadly mistaken.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > ok.. go for it.. name a content that gives a net fiscal loss and had no special skins directly linked to it, that players were passionate about and played regularly.. I won't wait forever for your response.. but you will take that long to find it..

> > > > >

> > > > > Uh, raids after the first clear each week...

> > > > >

> > > > > 1. You spend a ton of money on food.

> > > > > 2. You gain no drops, no shards or currency of any kind.

> > > > > 3. You get a few greens/blues to salvage.

> > > > >

> > > > > Yet players are clearing raids multiple times per week, usually just for fun/for the challenge.

> > > >

> > > > Buhahahahha.. yah.. nope.

> > >

> > > Well, given your responses, it's pretty clear you have some weird WvW agenda so I'll leave it here then.

> > >

> > > Regardless, look outside of your own box every once in while, you might find that people actually enjoy things you don't.

> >

> > No agenda.. just truth. If they nerfed the rewards in raids, the content would be dead in under a week.

>

> If they nerfed the rewards for anything hard or casual the content is going to die. You don't see a lot of people farming frost trolls in Frostgorge Sound for Powerful Blood anymore either. That doesn't invalidate casuals or content for casuals.

 

Nope.. but I see hundreds of people playing WvW before reward tracks when upgrades cost gold, repairs cost gold, and often after a full night of playing people had to go off and play PvE to recover their losses.

 

That game mode thrived even with the worst rewards of any game mode, because unlike scripted grind content (Which includes Raids) it was the thrill of the fight and the challenge that kept them playing.

 

But.. Raids.. Like Dungeons.. would die overnight if they nerfed the rewards, because as you so clearly put, you will follow the path of least resistance, which also includes the path to loot. Just don't confuse yourself with people that legit are looking for challenge and fun.

[Zagerus.8675]

I think one of the best ways around all of these issues is to gear up and learn chronomancer and build/train with your own pug groups. I've had several silent groups come together and clear a wing in a few hours or less (some were new, some were bored hardcore raiders playing on their alt accounts.) You help yourself while helping others so it is a worthy endeavor - much more so than trying to deal with people who get an ego over killing a.i..

[STIHL.2489]

Anyone that actually played WvW would know better then to say Any Game mode would die with less rewards.

 

Just saying the truth with that one.

[mortrialus.3062]

> @"STIHL.2489" said:

> Anyone that actually played WvW would know better then to say Any Game mode would die with less rewards.

>

> Just saying the truth with that one.

 

Then go have fun grinding trolls in frostgorge sound for powerful blood.

[Saint Sated.2698]

Love how this convo went into rewards being the issue.

[TexZero.7910]

> @"STIHL.2489" said:

> Anyone that actually played WvW would know better then to say Any Game mode would die with less rewards.

>

> Just saying the truth with that one.

 

WvW is a dead mode. The only place it's "Thrived" is in the top 3 servers of each region.

Hence why they keep trying to re-invent it and add more and more rewards to it.

[Saint Sated.2698]

> @"TexZero.7910" said:

> > @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > Anyone that actually played WvW would know better then to say Any Game mode would die with less rewards.

> >

> > Just saying the truth with that one.

>

> WvW is a dead mode. The only place it's "Thrived" is in the top 3 servers of each region.

> Hence why they keep trying to re-invent it and add more and more rewards to it.

 

So we've discussed raid rewards and WvW the most here.

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"AnariiUK.7409" said:

> Oh my mistake, I must just be imagining the hundreds of dungeon runs myself and others used to do before Heart of Thorns, which turned into hundreds of enjoyable hours in raids. I'll play whatever is fun and challenging, I don't care how much of a reward it gives.

 

The flaw in your argument was not that you misremembered your own experiences, it's that you assumed your own experiences applied to large portions of the community.

 

 

 

[STIHL.2489]

> @"TexZero.7910" said:

> > @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > Anyone that actually played WvW would know better then to say Any Game mode would die with less rewards.

> >

> > Just saying the truth with that one.

>

> WvW is a dead mode. The only place it's "Thrived" is in the top 3 servers of each region.

> Hence why they keep trying to re-invent it and add more and more rewards to it.

 

All this tells me is that you were not involved in WvW. Anyone that actually played WvW would know the passion for the mode by it's players from the bottom to the top.

 

And WvW has not been Re-invented at all, in fact... beyond some long overdue rewards added to the mode and a reduction in the gold sink aspect, it's the same game since launch. The same cannot be said for Instance content.

[ButcherofMalakir.4067]

> @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > @"AnariiUK.7409" said:

> > > @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > > > @"AnariiUK.7409" said:

> > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > > > > The only content in this game that survived with poor rewards is WvW.. because unlike scripted easy to reproduce encounters like PvE.. WvW was in fact _good_ challenging group based combat, and the only content that people played legit for the fun of it.

> > > >

> > > > If you think WvW is the only thing that people play purely for fun, then you're sadly mistaken.

> > >

> > > ok.. go for it.. name a content that gives a net fiscal loss and had no special skins directly linked to it, that players were passionate about and played regularly.. I won't wait forever for your response.. but you will take that long to find it..

> >

> > Uh, raids after the first clear each week...

> >

> > 1. You spend a ton of money on food.

> > 2. You gain no drops, no shards or currency of any kind.

> > 3. You get a few greens/blues to salvage.

> >

> > Yet players are clearing raids multiple times per week, usually just for fun/for the challenge.

>

> Buhahahahha.. yah.. nope.

 

I am clearing some bosses multiple times each week

[Tyson.5160]

> @"TexZero.7910" said:

> > @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > Anyone that actually played WvW would know better then to say Any Game mode would die with less rewards.

> >

> > Just saying the truth with that one.

>

> WvW is a dead mode. The only place it's "Thrived" is in the top 3 servers of each region.

> Hence why they keep trying to re-invent it and add more and more rewards to it.

 

A dead mode would mean no one is there as there is no life in it, yet I have no trouble finding squads in WvW and fighting large enemy zergs and so forth.

[ButcherofMalakir.4067]

> @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > @"TexZero.7910" said:

> > > @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > > Anyone that actually played WvW would know better then to say Any Game mode would die with less rewards.

> > >

> > > Just saying the truth with that one.

> >

> > WvW is a dead mode. The only place it's "Thrived" is in the top 3 servers of each region.

> > Hence why they keep trying to re-invent it and add more and more rewards to it.

>

> All this tells me is that you were not involved in WvW. Anyone that actually played WvW would know the passion for the mode by it's players from the bottom to the top.

>

> And WvW has not been Re-invented at all, in fact... beyond some long overdue rewards added to the mode and a reduction in the gold sink aspect, it's the same game since launch. The same cannot be said for Instance content.

 

I tried wvw and it was boring to me. You say there are fights but all I remember is waiting for for commander to order to move. And once we get to a fight it become boring very quickly because with so many players your contribution is very limited.

On the other hand I dont clear all bosses each weel but every week there are some bosses that I killed multiple times. If I need gold I go to fractals or TP. Raids have very low profit for me but that is not why I do them.

Some players would stop playing raids with rewards nerfed but not majority in my oppinion.

[yann.1946]

> @"STIHL.2489" said:

> Anyone that actually played WvW would know better then to say Any Game mode would die with less rewards.

>

> Just saying the truth with that one.

 

Weren't their quite a lot of people saying the gamemode was dieing before the adding of rewards?

[Raizel.8175]

> @"STIHL.2489" said:

> But.. Raids.. Like Dungeons.. would die overnight if they nerfed the rewards, because as you so clearly put, you will follow the path of least resistance, which also includes the path to loot. Just don't confuse yourself with people that legit are looking for challenge and fun.

 

You know... there kinda are... well... people that play games for fun... I guess?

[Tyson.5160]

> @"Raizel.8175" said:

> > @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > But.. Raids.. Like Dungeons.. would die overnight if they nerfed the rewards, because as you so clearly put, you will follow the path of least resistance, which also includes the path to loot. Just don't confuse yourself with people that legit are looking for challenge and fun.

>

> You know... there kinda are... well... people that play games for fun... I guess?

 

Oh there would be people that play it, but there would be an exodus for sure.

[yann.1946]

> @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > @"Raizel.8175" said:

> > > @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > > But.. Raids.. Like Dungeons.. would die overnight if they nerfed the rewards, because as you so clearly put, you will follow the path of least resistance, which also includes the path to loot. Just don't confuse yourself with people that legit are looking for challenge and fun.

> >

> > You know... there kinda are... well... people that play games for fun... I guess?

>

> Oh there would be people that play it, but there would be an exodus for sure.

 

Probably as would for any gamemode. Even WvW the gamemode STIHL says was doing fine without rewards would lose a lot of players of they removed rewards

[Raizel.8175]

> @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > @"Raizel.8175" said:

> > > @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > > But.. Raids.. Like Dungeons.. would die overnight if they nerfed the rewards, because as you so clearly put, you will follow the path of least resistance, which also includes the path to loot. Just don't confuse yourself with people that legit are looking for challenge and fun.

> >

> > You know... there kinda are... well... people that play games for fun... I guess?

>

> Oh there would be people that play it, but there would be an exodus for sure.

 

Don't think so, but well...

[Lord of the Fire.6870]

> @"Saint Sated.2698" said:

> > @"TexZero.7910" said:

> > > @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > > Anyone that actually played WvW would know better then to say Any Game mode would die with less rewards.

> > >

> > > Just saying the truth with that one.

> >

> > WvW is a dead mode. The only place it's "Thrived" is in the top 3 servers of each region.

> > Hence why they keep trying to re-invent it and add more and more rewards to it.

>

> So we've discussed raid rewards and WvW the most here.

 

I think it is because there are also a lot of toxic players in wvw similar to raids but you will find them in pvp too and in some cases in normal pve.

The core is people have expectations on you as a player in those contents in wvw I have witness how the commander of a public zerg comments the equip of some random players despite such tools are banned from Arena.NET. In return there are 30 players on the map which don't join the zerg in the prime time ~.~

 

In raids it is the same but a lot more concentrated form which is not surprising with enrage timer and hard learncurve .

 

About LI I also say its pretty bad as a measurement on top of this its doesn't allow players to join even when they mastered the raids. Which in the result means at some point top guild just leeching on raid guild under them by 'stealing' their players. Which won't be as bad as in other games I played but you have only have as source players which came from an unknown raids guild in the end when you lost one in you raids or you are very social train with them yourself.

 

About KP's I can only say my bank is full with stuff I need I can make space but I won't be ever enough.

 

Raid are really not for that much players how other already said. I'm in relative big guild which is mostly causal around 20% doing fractals but only 2 were ever actively playing raids from 170 players. On the other side when I playing T4 fractals a lot of players have the full mastery points which means a lot of raiders doing T4's.

 

I think the best jump off the give players from T4 fractals is by filling the holes between the last T4 fractals and the CM modes of them by adding more CM for the old fractals.

 

About Dungeons I think the were more difficult then they are now through the power creep also they have more variants through the paths and were in all the stuff between bosses more creative. Raids on the other hand need more team work and movements at the bosses.