Sand Savant nerf

[Patty.3268]

> @"Kehno.5764" said:

> You clearly didn't test it, why write such things?

 

I stand corrected at this point. I tested it, but stopped too early - in this case right after I recasted the 1st Shade. Should have waited to see that, since the ammo cooldowns stack in duration rather than being individual cooldowns, you will indeed be left without a Shade after recasting the 1st/casting the 4th Shade (when casting them every 10s). Sorry for that.

 

I still think the increased cooldown is a fair trade off for what you get when taking Sand Savant, though, even when loosing the 100% uptime. Like someone said before, the Shade is still a longer lasting well. And if you time the Shades correctly, you can greatly reduce the time where you would need a Shade but still have to wait for it to come off CD.

 

[Patrick.2987]

> @"Glider.5792" said:

> > @"Patty.3268" said:

> > > @"Shinnetami.7041" said:

> > > What I say is, that no matter how you counted the whole situation through, there will be a moment when necro is left without a shade.

> > >

> >

> > Only when you use Manifest Sand Shade too often, meaning for than once every 10s. But in this case, being left without a shade is the trade off you get for repositioning it more often. Just like a Thief will be left without initiative when using the weapon skills too often, or an Ele who used an Overload will be left with an increased cooldown for the overloaded attunement. Now the shade cooldown has to be managed just like other resources like initiative, energy, life force, astral force and so on.

>

> Greater shade lasts 10 seconds. If you always want to have it up, you need to spawn one at least every 10 seconds. So using one every 10sec will result in being with none after 40 second (you use 3 in first 30 seconds, by that time one is off cooldown so you spawn the 4th one). When that happens, you will only be able to have a shade up for 10sec every 30sec which means the scourge will be alone without a shade 2/3 of the fight after the first 40sec.

> Honestly, imo scourge should be able to always have at least 1 shade up, thats the point of scourge, using shade to atack/defend. It would be smarter to decrease ammo cooldown, but increase the cooldown of placing shades to like 5-7sec (if using Sand savant). That way scourge can still have 100% shade uptime, but he can no longer keep repositioning it.

 

You argue scourge should always be able to have one shade up but a shade with sand savant acts like 3 shades. What you want is having 3 shades not only for 40 seconds but always.

[von.3816]

I think it was too much time to cooldown in one skill, big nerf, makes the class boring to play.

Again the cry of the PVP boys, NERF the WVW classes, when I saw the first nerf, I FINALLY found the company treats the WVW players with respect, definitely separating the nerf from the weeping PVP boys from WVW. But read mistake, soon the company comes and buries the class in WVW, leaving boring to play.

 

 

[Ferelwing.8463]

> @"Shinnetami.7041" said:

>

> > @"Patty.3268" said:

> >

> > Only when you use Manifest Sand Shade too often, meaning for than once every 10s. But in this case, being left without a shade is the trade off you get for repositioning it more often. Just like a Thief will be left without initiative when using the weapon skills too often, or an Ele who used an Overload will be left with an increased cooldown for the overloaded attunement. Now the shade cooldown has to be managed just like other resources like initiative, energy, life force, astral force and so on.

>

> You are right on this one: we do have to manage it somehow but since we don’t have stealth, mobility, blocks, invulns(like ele, thief etc.) necro can’t really get away from battle.

> P. S. I tested both Savant and Demonic lore in couple of unranked matches. I can’t say it’s completely unplayable but it’s certainly not enjoyable. It feels really clunky.

 

It's even worse when you're trying to play WvW, Scourge is a lot harder to roam with now. Especially if you run into specific classes, still I'm not against one class being a hard counter to another. I would however like the option to get away (thieves and ele's get some pretty nice evasions) it would be nice if the nerf came with a bonus to our escapes.

 

[Silver.2076]

Addendum from me: As I said before and now, after 15h play, can confirm, the change only affects bad players/groups.

 

Those who are able to push hard and read the opponent's movement only need the 3-4 shades, sometimes 5 if it takes longer.

 

But I must admit, this change is still very successful, because on average there are significantly fewer flashing fields, annoying corrupts and accidental damage. The fights don't last any longer, because of the current event shorter, but it feels good to have to act more targeted again and not just to be able to play wastefully.

 

Respect Anet, strong but good nerf.

[Shakki.3219]

Like... sometimes i don't understand the "balancing" of anet devs. any veteran wvw player could do better.... all ANET devs do is increase cd to xy... like really?

 

how about you would have changed scourge to an actual support class how it was advertised?

[Sigmoid.7082]

> @"Shakki.3219" said:

> how about you would have changed scourge to an actual support class how it was advertised?

I was never advertised as a pure support class.

 

 

[RedShark.9548]

> @"von.3816" said:

> I think it was too much time to cooldown in one skill, big nerf, makes the class boring to play.

> Again the cry of the PVP boys, NERF the WVW classes, when I saw the first nerf, I FINALLY found the company treats the WVW players with respect, definitely separating the nerf from the weeping PVP boys from WVW. But read mistake, soon the company comes and buries the class in WVW, leaving boring to play.

>

>

 

the hell did i just read? and someone understood that gibberish and liked it o.O

 

everything that reduces aoe spam in wvw is a good thing for now imo, revert the powercreep and introduce skillful play again...pre hot wvw was best, you even had to coordinate blastfields in a public to get your healing

i still blast waterfields when i run through them without thinking, but feels like im the only one in most cases

[Dadnir.5038]

> @"RedShark.9548" said:

> > @"von.3816" said:

> > I think it was too much time to cooldown in one skill, big nerf, makes the class boring to play.

> > Again the cry of the PVP boys, NERF the WVW classes, when I saw the first nerf, I FINALLY found the company treats the WVW players with respect, definitely separating the nerf from the weeping PVP boys from WVW. But read mistake, soon the company comes and buries the class in WVW, leaving boring to play.

> >

> >

>

> the hell did i just read? and someone understood that gibberish and liked it o.O

>

> everything that reduces aoe spam in wvw is a good thing for now imo, revert the powercreep and introduce skillful play again...pre hot wvw was best, you even had to coordinate blastfields in a public to get your healing

> i still blast waterfields when i run through them without thinking, but feels like im the only one in most cases

 

Thumb up because I too miss the good ol'time when we used actively blast and fields (thought, it wasn't a necro thing)

[Anchoku.8142]

> @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > @"RedShark.9548" said:

> > > @"von.3816" said:

> > > I think it was too much time to cooldown in one skill, big nerf, makes the class boring to play.

> > > Again the cry of the PVP boys, NERF the WVW classes, when I saw the first nerf, I FINALLY found the company treats the WVW players with respect, definitely separating the nerf from the weeping PVP boys from WVW. But read mistake, soon the company comes and buries the class in WVW, leaving boring to play.

> > >

> > >

> >

> > the hell did i just read? and someone understood that gibberish and liked it o.O

> >

> > everything that reduces aoe spam in wvw is a good thing for now imo, revert the powercreep and introduce skillful play again...pre hot wvw was best, you even had to coordinate blastfields in a public to get your healing

> > i still blast waterfields when i run through them without thinking, but feels like im the only one in most cases

>

> Thumb up because I too miss the good ol'time when we used actively blast and fields (thought, it wasn't a necro thing)

 

Combo's, IMO, need greater emphasis. They are a great scaler for those who are attentive.

[mulzi.8273]

> @"RedShark.9548" said:

> > @"von.3816" said:

> > I think it was too much time to cooldown in one skill, big nerf, makes the class boring to play.

> > Again the cry of the PVP boys, NERF the WVW classes, when I saw the first nerf, I FINALLY found the company treats the WVW players with respect, definitely separating the nerf from the weeping PVP boys from WVW. But read mistake, soon the company comes and buries the class in WVW, leaving boring to play.

> >

> >

>

> the hell did i just read? and someone understood that gibberish and liked it o.O

>

> everything that reduces aoe spam in wvw is a good thing for now imo, revert the powercreep and introduce skillful play again...pre hot wvw was best, you even had to coordinate blastfields in a public to get your healing

> i still blast waterfields when i run through them without thinking, but feels like im the only one in most cases

 

was it _ever_ skillful though? I mean, before this AoE condi crap we have now, back in the day it was the stupid hammer train that would cc you into oblivion. the zerg with the most hammers won 99% of the time. Hide behind the hammer train and bomb without any risk. Sure, I blast fields when on ele all the time. But back in the day, it was 'pre blast might', spend 1-2 minutes buffing zerg, then let the hammer train go nuts. Range couldn't do much then. After the hammer train was the boon days, where range started over taking the melee classes out there. Then the condi days which widened the gap even further.. Now this crap that makes playing melee almost a joke unless your a firebrand/guard (and rev is a range class)

 

I have lost all faith that anet can find or even want to find, a happy medium. They are so stuck on this spray and pray aoe meta now. This meta helps new/inexperienced/unskillful folks feel powerful, tag targets, see big numbers and get kills. That seems to be what anet thinks will solve all the WvW problems now.

[Lahmia.2193]

> @"mulzi.8273" said:

> > @"RedShark.9548" said:

> > > @"von.3816" said:

> > > I think it was too much time to cooldown in one skill, big nerf, makes the class boring to play.

> > > Again the cry of the PVP boys, NERF the WVW classes, when I saw the first nerf, I FINALLY found the company treats the WVW players with respect, definitely separating the nerf from the weeping PVP boys from WVW. But read mistake, soon the company comes and buries the class in WVW, leaving boring to play.

> > >

> > >

> >

> > the hell did i just read? and someone understood that gibberish and liked it o.O

> >

> > everything that reduces aoe spam in wvw is a good thing for now imo, revert the powercreep and introduce skillful play again...pre hot wvw was best, you even had to coordinate blastfields in a public to get your healing

> > i still blast waterfields when i run through them without thinking, but feels like im the only one in most cases

>

> was it _ever_ skillful though? I mean, before this AoE condi crap we have now, back in the day it was the stupid hammer train that would cc you into oblivion. the zerg with the most hammers won 99% of the time. Hide behind the hammer train and bomb without any risk. Sure, I blast fields when on ele all the time. But back in the day, it was 'pre blast might', spend 1-2 minutes buffing zerg, then let the hammer train go nuts. Range couldn't do much then. After the hammer train was the boon days, where range started over taking the melee classes out there. Then the condi days which widened the gap even further.. Now this crap that makes playing melee almost a joke unless your a firebrand/guard (and rev is a range class)

>

> I have lost all faith that anet can find or even want to find, a happy medium. They are so stuck on this spray and pray aoe meta now. This meta helps new/inexperienced/unskillful folks feel powerful, tag targets, see big numbers and get kills. That seems to be what anet thinks will solve all the WvW problems now.

 

Grass is always greener me thinks. Whilst I'm not a fan of the current meta, I prefer it to the HoT boonball meta.

[RedShark.9548]

> @"mulzi.8273" said:

> > @"RedShark.9548" said:

> > > @"von.3816" said:

> > > I think it was too much time to cooldown in one skill, big nerf, makes the class boring to play.

> > > Again the cry of the PVP boys, NERF the WVW classes, when I saw the first nerf, I FINALLY found the company treats the WVW players with respect, definitely separating the nerf from the weeping PVP boys from WVW. But read mistake, soon the company comes and buries the class in WVW, leaving boring to play.

> > >

> > >

> >

> > the hell did i just read? and someone understood that gibberish and liked it o.O

> >

> > everything that reduces aoe spam in wvw is a good thing for now imo, revert the powercreep and introduce skillful play again...pre hot wvw was best, you even had to coordinate blastfields in a public to get your healing

> > i still blast waterfields when i run through them without thinking, but feels like im the only one in most cases

>

> was it _ever_ skillful though? I mean, before this AoE condi crap we have now, back in the day it was the stupid hammer train that would cc you into oblivion. the zerg with the most hammers won 99% of the time. Hide behind the hammer train and bomb without any risk. Sure, I blast fields when on ele all the time. But back in the day, it was 'pre blast might', spend 1-2 minutes buffing zerg, then let the hammer train go nuts. Range couldn't do much then. After the hammer train was the boon days, where range started over taking the melee classes out there. Then the condi days which widened the gap even further.. Now this crap that makes playing melee almost a joke unless your a firebrand/guard (and rev is a range class)

>

> I have lost all faith that anet can find or even want to find, a happy medium. They are so stuck on this spray and pray aoe meta now. This meta helps new/inexperienced/unskillful folks feel powerful, tag targets, see big numbers and get kills. That seems to be what anet thinks will solve all the WvW problems now.

 

you could still dodge and outmaneuver the meleetrain, the better commander wins, also the zerg that knew when to lay down waterfields to heal the train and to not put down other fields that get blasted by accident instead of the water, lower dmg output in general meant longer fights that went beyond one zerg pushing once and winnig the fight immediately, which means that the commander movement actually matters to divide melees and caster, and isnt just a target for the caster to where to face(some are that braindead that they seem to need him just for that)

[starlinvf.1358]

> @"Oh My God.8423" said:

> I was hoping to play a support Scourge in www. How much does having Sand Savant better than the other two grandmaster? Forgive me if I sound silly but how much different does make with one Sand Savant than 3 little shades?

>

> Thanks!

 

If you look at the minor traits, you'll notice that 2 of them are scaled directly to the number of shades you have in the field. Greater Shade counts as 3 Shades for these traits, and the reduced recharge time meant you could have 100% uptime if you spaced out casting. Lesser shades are designed to pepper a field and control enemy movement.... but it tends to fail at this due to how fast you exhaust your charges, and made worse by the duration nerf in PvP/WvW. Because a whole tier of Scourge's traits are based on Manifest Shade (placement skill), the original design intent seemed to be about dropping a shade as needed on a target, and slowly denying the area as the shades persist. In PvE this makes sense, since PoF events force you to be on the move, and theres a lot of space that needs to be covered. But in PvP/WvW, area denial is extremely powerful... and the all the Nerfs to shade were a response to that.

 

For WvW specifically, Sand Savant was considered mandatory for the radius and target cap increase for shade skills (which also source from the Necro), allowing them to cover more people at once. Even if you were to remove the offensive aspects of the Shades, the support functions also break down, because its hurting a Scourge's ability to project those skills where its needed. Without Sand Savant, or a shade, the range of the F skills are the same as FB Mantras. FB Mantras were designed for use in group stacks, and is actually pretty bad for mobile group support had it not been for the forward cone having more range.

[Dami.5046]

Well i'm heading on to ele ( and gearing one ) from necro or mesmer or holo since no seems to moan about them and plan to have fun before they do.

[mulzi.8273]

> @"Dami.5046" said:

> Well i'm heading on to ele ( and gearing one ) from necro or mesmer or holo since no seems to moan about them and plan to have fun before they do.

 

May want to check the other forums if that is your real reason. The mesmer has permanent complaint threads against it and if history is any indication, it will be next on the old sledge-hammer balancing routine from Anet.

[Dami.5046]

> @"mulzi.8273" said:

> > @"Dami.5046" said:

> > Well i'm heading on to ele ( and gearing one ) from necro or mesmer or holo since no seems to moan about them and plan to have fun before they do.

>

> May want to check the other forums if that is your real reason. The mesmer has permanent complaint threads against it and if history is any indication, it will be next on the old sledge-hammer balancing routine from Anet.

 

Clearly sarcasm is lost on my post, my apologizes.

However I could check a thousand forums and it wouldn't change anything, apart from people forever want easy mode.

[Karnn.4569]

Ok so i play support scourge and this change is killing me but what i really want to know is why ontop of this change my F2-F5 skills have 100% slower cool down as well in any pvp mode doesn't matter sand savant or not. Also has anyone brought this up? why dont they just drop the dps of sand savant and return cool downs to what it was so they dont kill support scourges then increase aoe range of normal shades a bit so those can be used in damage builds effectively? Everything about this tweak to the class was loose cannon and destroyed the very thing they said scourge was supposed to be for. Then again they said the dead eye changes were to make the class less complicated and the very changes made added more crap to rotations which was totally not simplifying anything. So I'm completely confused because they say one thing and walk backwards off a cliff over and over. I'm getting pretty frustrated trying to decipher the devs at this point as nothing makes sense.