DragonFury.6243 Posted June 8, 2018 Share Posted June 8, 2018 instant cast and breake out of stun skills dont interrupt stomping then why shroud do ???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wizardauz.3761 Posted June 8, 2018 Share Posted June 8, 2018 Welcome to Necro. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sigmoid.7082 Posted June 8, 2018 Share Posted June 8, 2018 Probably to do with how shroud is a transformation technically. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZDragon.3046 Posted June 8, 2018 Share Posted June 8, 2018 Old code. People didnt play the same back when this code was made so it was never an issue back then or not one that was highly considered. This just another of many points that show the necro lacks touch up polish all around in todays age of the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warscythes.9307 Posted June 8, 2018 Share Posted June 8, 2018 Because it is considered a weapon swap, which is why you see swap sigils etc work when you pop in shroud. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DragonFury.6243 Posted June 8, 2018 Author Share Posted June 8, 2018 > @"ZDragon.3046" said: > Old code. People didnt play the same back when this code was made so it was never an issue back then or not one that was highly considered. This just another of many points that show the necro lacks touch up polish all around in todays age of the game. when this polish gana happened we need that or just ANET want us to play scourge > @"Wizardauz.3761" said: > Welcome to Necro. TY well i started to play GW2 when i saw a video about Minion master and mesmers and i have to admit that gw2 did a great job in underwater combat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZDragon.3046 Posted June 8, 2018 Share Posted June 8, 2018 > @"DragonFury.6243" said: > > @"ZDragon.3046" said: > > Old code. People didnt play the same back when this code was made so it was never an issue back then or not one that was highly considered. This just another of many points that show the necro lacks touch up polish all around in todays age of the game. > > when this polish gana happened we need that or just ANET want us to play scourge It has nothing to do with scourge it just lack of polish and QoL updates or there was no other way to code it so it was forced to remain the way it is. Although your comment suggest that scourge in itself makes necro ok which if thats the case it only shows one of two things. The first obivously core necro is shit and just needs love or The second Scourge is too much in its kit and works as a big bandaid which is not good design. Back to the code and mechanics In most cases it can be viewed as old code but there are some situations where to make things work within the limits of the game engin they have to write them in a certain way and in doing so they create known bugs / undesirable actions under certain situations. Considering how behind the majority of stuff is on necro i would say lack of QoL and Polish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warscythes.9307 Posted June 8, 2018 Share Posted June 8, 2018 > @"ZDragon.3046" said: > > @"DragonFury.6243" said: > > > @"ZDragon.3046" said: > > > Old code. People didnt play the same back when this code was made so it was never an issue back then or not one that was highly considered. This just another of many points that show the necro lacks touch up polish all around in todays age of the game. > > > > when this polish gana happened we need that or just ANET want us to play scourge > > It has nothing to do with scourge it just lack of polish and QoL updates or there was no other way to code it so it was forced to remain the way it is. > Although your comment suggest that scourge in itself makes necro ok which if thats the case it only shows one of two things. > > The first obivously core necro is kitten and just needs love > or > The second Scourge is too much in its kit and works as a big bandaid which is not good design. > > Back to the code and mechanics > In most cases it can be viewed as old code but there are some situations where to make things work within the limits of the game engin they have to write them in a certain way and in doing so they create known bugs / undesirable actions under certain situations. > Considering how behind the majority of stuff is on necro i would say lack of QoL and Polish. > > This is not some weird unintended mechanic with old code. It is simply considered a weapon swap and doing exactly what it is suppose to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZDragon.3046 Posted June 8, 2018 Share Posted June 8, 2018 > @"Warscythes.9307" said: > > @"ZDragon.3046" said: > > > @"DragonFury.6243" said: > > > > @"ZDragon.3046" said: > > > > Old code. People didnt play the same back when this code was made so it was never an issue back then or not one that was highly considered. This just another of many points that show the necro lacks touch up polish all around in todays age of the game. > > > > > > when this polish gana happened we need that or just ANET want us to play scourge > > > > It has nothing to do with scourge it just lack of polish and QoL updates or there was no other way to code it so it was forced to remain the way it is. > > Although your comment suggest that scourge in itself makes necro ok which if thats the case it only shows one of two things. > > > > The first obivously core necro is kitten and just needs love > > or > > The second Scourge is too much in its kit and works as a big bandaid which is not good design. > > > > Back to the code and mechanics > > In most cases it can be viewed as old code but there are some situations where to make things work within the limits of the game engin they have to write them in a certain way and in doing so they create known bugs / undesirable actions under certain situations. > > Considering how behind the majority of stuff is on necro i would say lack of QoL and Polish. > > > > > > This is not some weird unintended mechanic with old code. It is simply considered a weapon swap and doing exactly what it is suppose to do. Incorrect while you bring up a good point shroud does trigger a weapon swap The skill is not tooltipped like a weapon swap although that could be the bit of code that causes the problem. Which means it is an unintended / intended mechanic because im sure that thats the only way they could apply new skills in that form and make them work properly So as i said its likely built that way because its the only way they could get it to work within the games limitations. While you are likely right im not really wrong either. As an instant skill it is still a bit odd. where as every other profession can do safe guarded stomps in some form or another necro cannot do this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warscythes.9307 Posted June 8, 2018 Share Posted June 8, 2018 > @"ZDragon.3046" said: > > @"Warscythes.9307" said: > > > @"ZDragon.3046" said: > > > > @"DragonFury.6243" said: > > > > > @"ZDragon.3046" said: > > > > > Old code. People didnt play the same back when this code was made so it was never an issue back then or not one that was highly considered. This just another of many points that show the necro lacks touch up polish all around in todays age of the game. > > > > > > > > when this polish gana happened we need that or just ANET want us to play scourge > > > > > > It has nothing to do with scourge it just lack of polish and QoL updates or there was no other way to code it so it was forced to remain the way it is. > > > Although your comment suggest that scourge in itself makes necro ok which if thats the case it only shows one of two things. > > > > > > The first obivously core necro is kitten and just needs love > > > or > > > The second Scourge is too much in its kit and works as a big bandaid which is not good design. > > > > > > Back to the code and mechanics > > > In most cases it can be viewed as old code but there are some situations where to make things work within the limits of the game engin they have to write them in a certain way and in doing so they create known bugs / undesirable actions under certain situations. > > > Considering how behind the majority of stuff is on necro i would say lack of QoL and Polish. > > > > > > > > > > This is not some weird unintended mechanic with old code. It is simply considered a weapon swap and doing exactly what it is suppose to do. > > Incorrect while you bring up a good point shroud does trigger a weapon swap > The skill is not tooltipped like a weapon swap although that could be the bit of code that causes the problem. > Which means it is an unintended / intended mechanic because im sure that thats the only way they could apply new skills in that form and make them work properly > > So as i said its likely built that way because its the only way they could get it to work within the games limitations. While you are likely right im not really wrong either. > > As an instant skill it is still a bit odd. where as every other profession can do safe guarded stomps in some form or another necro cannot do this. Shroud exit has a .5 cd. It is functioning exactly how it is intended. How else would you write this? Weapon swap has to interrupt your current action just like how stow stops your current skill. Otherwise it wouldn't make any sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DragonFury.6243 Posted June 8, 2018 Author Share Posted June 8, 2018 > @"Warscythes.9307" said: > This is not some weird unintended mechanic with old code. It is simply considered a weapon swap and doing exactly what it is suppose to do. no shroud is not weapon swapping hence Superior Rune of the Warrior do not decrease CD for the shroud !!!!! so its not weapon swap and its instant cast F skill then why the interrupt?????? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeceiverX.8361 Posted June 8, 2018 Share Posted June 8, 2018 > @"DragonFury.6243" said: > > @"Warscythes.9307" said: > > This is not some weird unintended mechanic with old code. It is simply considered a weapon swap and doing exactly what it is suppose to do. > > no shroud is not weapon swapping hence Superior Rune of the Warrior do not decrease CD for the shroud !!!!! > so its not weapon swap and its instant cast F skill then why the interrupt?????? It **acts** as a weapon swap. It **isn't** a weapon swap. Rune of the warrior on shroud should entry/exit should potentially reduce your weapon swap cooldown (though it may be locked out of doing so because swap is disabled while in shroud). Swapping weapons, and as such, shroud (which is treated as such) cancels **any** animation and can be done at any time, even when stow does not work such as during mobility skills. Thus, it cancels stomp, because it cancels all current animations. If it didn't cancel everything, necro would be super bad to play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rym.1469 Posted June 8, 2018 Share Posted June 8, 2018 > @"ZDragon.3046" said: > Old code. People didnt play the same back when this code was made so it was never an issue back then or not one that was highly considered. This just another of many points that show the necro lacks touch up polish all around in todays age of the game. It has always been an issue, dating back to the trait's creation. FitD was just rarely the trait of choice, so it wasn't as obvious to the general public. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wizardauz.3761 Posted June 8, 2018 Share Posted June 8, 2018 > @"DeceiverX.8361" said: > If it didn't cancel everything, necro would be super bad to play. Explain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeceiverX.8361 Posted June 9, 2018 Share Posted June 9, 2018 > @"Wizardauz.3761" said: > > @"DeceiverX.8361" said: > > If it didn't cancel everything, necro would be super bad to play. > > Explain. Begin casting any channeled animation or any animation at all to force a dodge roll, enter shroud, and now the skill you began casting is now no longer on cooldown (because it never fired), and you can punish a wasted dodge/negation with various shroud skills or simply absorb/negate any counterattacks the enemy may be trying to pull off. Similarly, you can fake people out by beginning to cast shroud skills and then swap out midway through into weapon skills to punish them, such as when people run out of range to avoid being hit by rshroud/dshroud 4/5 but don't burn defenses, letting you burn them down quickly via skills like Ghastly Claws, interrupted with OH WH, etc. Faking animations and forcing responses is a huge part of high-level PvP in this game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wizardauz.3761 Posted June 9, 2018 Share Posted June 9, 2018 > @"DeceiverX.8361" said: > > @"Wizardauz.3761" said: > > > @"DeceiverX.8361" said: > > > If it didn't cancel everything, necro would be super bad to play. > > > > Explain. > > Begin casting any channeled animation or any animation at all to force a dodge roll, enter shroud, and now the skill you began casting is now no longer on cooldown (because it never fired), and you can punish a wasted dodge/negation with various shroud skills or simply absorb/negate any counterattacks the enemy may be trying to pull off. > > Similarly, you can fake people out by beginning to cast shroud skills and then swap out midway through into weapon skills to punish them, such as when people run out of range to avoid being hit by rshroud/dshroud 4/5 but don't burn defenses, letting you burn them down quickly via skills like Ghastly Claws, interrupted with OH WH, etc. > > Faking animations and forcing responses is a huge part of high-level PvP in this game. Ele attunement swap counts as a weapon swap and doesnt break channel effects. Plus, what would you cancel. GS5 Cancel only shortens the cast time a bit but still goes on full CD. same with GS4. Only ones able to be canceled are GS2 and 3. RShroud abilities able to be canceled to my knowledge is only RS5. RS2 instant casts, RS3, Instant, RS4 channeled and is put on CD once the channel has begun, RS5 is the only one i know of. But i'd rather have on demand stability to react and secure the stomp. In a 2v2 scenario in either sPvP or roaming or any thing other then a duel. A secured stomp is worth a lot. enough to rally your teammates back up and possibly win the fight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeceiverX.8361 Posted June 9, 2018 Share Posted June 9, 2018 Eles are really the edge case more than the standard. Engi kits and the likes, as well as bundles, all cancel. Ele attunement swap on its own also isn't as free of a safe stomp as shroud's. As for specifically why it doesn't work like Ele's for stomping: It was directly addressed some years ago because it was just OP since safe stomps like activating stability/invulns/shadowstep all expend substantially longer and more important cooldowns than shroud. Worth noting is that it does not cancel when running out of life force, so if you're very low at the start, you can let it degen to full and you'll keep stomping. It was at one point changed to also prevent stomps if LF ran out, but this was reverted in 2014 because it was too damning. Aftercast cancellations, AA's, GD starts, any use of a corruption/CC skill, utility usage with casts like CttB... there's a lot to cancel for a lot of reasons depending on the context of the fight. You said it yourself: a number of skills fire off before their animations finish and they fire the effects. There's no reason to wait for the animation to finish. With FiTG you still have a very reliable stomp due to the stability. Enter -> Exit shroud immediately and the stability will remain applied. Aside from things like Endure Pain, Mist Form, and Distortion, there aren't too many abilities that allow for strictly safe stomps as it is. Mirage cloak is an anomaly and most people want its safe stomp removed because it really is just OP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wizardauz.3761 Posted June 9, 2018 Share Posted June 9, 2018 > @"DeceiverX.8361" said: > Eles are really the edge case more than the standard. Engi kits and the likes, as well as bundles, all cancel. Ele attunement swap on its own also isn't as free of a safe stomp as shroud's. As for specifically why it doesn't work like Ele's for stomping: It was directly addressed some years ago because it was just OP since safe stomps like activating stability/invulns/shadowstep all expend substantially longer and more important cooldowns than shroud. Worth noting is that it does not cancel when running out of life force, so if you're very low at the start, you can let it degen to full and you'll keep stomping. It was at one point changed to also prevent stomps if LF ran out, but this was reverted in 2014 because it was too damning. > > Aftercast cancellations, AA's, GD starts, any use of a corruption/CC skill, utility usage with casts like CttB... there's a lot to cancel for a lot of reasons depending on the context of the fight. You said it yourself: a number of skills fire off before their animations finish and they fire the effects. There's no reason to wait for the animation to finish. > > With FiTG you still have a very reliable stomp due to the stability. Enter -> Exit shroud immediately and the stability will remain applied. Aside from things like Endure Pain, Mist Form, and Distortion, there aren't too many abilities that allow for strictly safe stomps as it is. Mirage cloak is an anomaly and most people want its safe stomp removed because it really is just OP. > > I get that fact that it could be considered OP. But if lack of mobility/defense is going to just be a Necro Given Weakness as part of some sort of Profession Wide theme then we should get compensated. As a reaper the theme is you are a Reaper, Death Incarnate, Slow & Lumbering a bit, but unstoppable. If anyone have a safe stomp on demand is considered worthy it would be us imo. Sure Mesmer stomp is kinda an anomaly but even Thieves have had the shadow step stomp combo for the longest time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeceiverX.8361 Posted June 9, 2018 Share Posted June 9, 2018 I understand it seems lacking in comparison to the mirage, but as for the thief, the shadowstep stomp is a 50s cooldown which also functions as a primary stunbreak, disengage, and condi cleanse on the thief. It'd be akin to burning Spectral Armor, if not a little more. A shadowstep stomp is typically a very calculated move made by the thief as a consequence, only done in situations that truly call for it, rather than something which can likely be performed every fight as an FiTG + Shroud stomp could. Further, it's also not truly safe; ranged CC, such as from an allied ranger using PBS, a mesmer using MoD or MoA, staff 5 on necro/grasp, bull's charge from warrior, Mark or steal from another thief with SoH, or even ele staff 5 (or any CC field as shadowsteps do not ignore them and get interrupted) in air can interrupt the finish, wasting the cooldown on such a critical ability and opening the thief up to just being killed outright. I think it speaks more or less about mirage cloak being broken more than anything else to be honest. Distortion and Mist Form are also on 50 and 60 second cooldowns, respectively. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stand The Wall.6987 Posted June 9, 2018 Share Posted June 9, 2018 its your fault for not investing in boon duration Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rym.1469 Posted June 9, 2018 Share Posted June 9, 2018 > @"Wizardauz.3761" said: > > @"DeceiverX.8361" said: > > > @"Wizardauz.3761" said: > > > > @"DeceiverX.8361" said: > > > > If it didn't cancel everything, necro would be super bad to play. > > > > > > Explain. > > > > Begin casting any channeled animation or any animation at all to force a dodge roll, enter shroud, and now the skill you began casting is now no longer on cooldown (because it never fired), and you can punish a wasted dodge/negation with various shroud skills or simply absorb/negate any counterattacks the enemy may be trying to pull off. > > > > Similarly, you can fake people out by beginning to cast shroud skills and then swap out midway through into weapon skills to punish them, such as when people run out of range to avoid being hit by rshroud/dshroud 4/5 but don't burn defenses, letting you burn them down quickly via skills like Ghastly Claws, interrupted with OH WH, etc. > > > > Faking animations and forcing responses is a huge part of high-level PvP in this game. > > Ele attunement swap counts as a weapon swap and doesnt break channel effects. > > Plus, what would you cancel. > > GS5 Cancel only shortens the cast time a bit but still goes on full CD. same with GS4. > > Only ones able to be canceled are GS2 and 3. RShroud abilities able to be canceled to my knowledge is only RS5. RS2 instant casts, RS3, Instant, RS4 channeled and is put on CD once the channel has begun, RS5 is the only one i know of. You can absolutely cancel all the Greatsword skills. Also, Necromancers have access to the shadowstep stomp, it just involves two utilities - Spectral Walk and Flesh Wurm. Or use scourge portal to do it. On a side note, it's about time FitG gets back on track. 2 stacks of stability and for 5s or one for 5s, but affecting allies as well would be a welcome - and much needed - buff. This trait has been in the dumpster since specialization rework left it in underpowered state of it's former self. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZDragon.3046 Posted June 11, 2018 Share Posted June 11, 2018 > @"Warscythes.9307" said: > > @"ZDragon.3046" said: > > > @"Warscythes.9307" said: > > > > @"ZDragon.3046" said: > > > > > @"DragonFury.6243" said: > > > > > > @"ZDragon.3046" said: > > > > > > Old code. People didnt play the same back when this code was made so it was never an issue back then or not one that was highly considered. This just another of many points that show the necro lacks touch up polish all around in todays age of the game. > > > > > > > > > > when this polish gana happened we need that or just ANET want us to play scourge > > > > > > > > It has nothing to do with scourge it just lack of polish and QoL updates or there was no other way to code it so it was forced to remain the way it is. > > > > Although your comment suggest that scourge in itself makes necro ok which if thats the case it only shows one of two things. > > > > > > > > The first obivously core necro is kitten and just needs love > > > > or > > > > The second Scourge is too much in its kit and works as a big bandaid which is not good design. > > > > > > > > Back to the code and mechanics > > > > In most cases it can be viewed as old code but there are some situations where to make things work within the limits of the game engin they have to write them in a certain way and in doing so they create known bugs / undesirable actions under certain situations. > > > > Considering how behind the majority of stuff is on necro i would say lack of QoL and Polish. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is not some weird unintended mechanic with old code. It is simply considered a weapon swap and doing exactly what it is suppose to do. > > > > Incorrect while you bring up a good point shroud does trigger a weapon swap > > The skill is not tooltipped like a weapon swap although that could be the bit of code that causes the problem. > > Which means it is an unintended / intended mechanic because im sure that thats the only way they could apply new skills in that form and make them work properly > > > > So as i said its likely built that way because its the only way they could get it to work within the games limitations. While you are likely right im not really wrong either. > > > > As an instant skill it is still a bit odd. where as every other profession can do safe guarded stomps in some form or another necro cannot do this. > > Shroud exit has a .5 cd. It is functioning exactly how it is intended. How else would you write this? Weapon swap has to interrupt your current action just like how stow stops your current skill. Otherwise it wouldn't make any sense. 1. Because its not directly obvious that is a weapon swap. 2. The exit time on shroud has 100% nothing to do with this whole conversation as that was added loooong after the games release its almost considered recent as a fix to prevent double activation by mistake as people were prone to hitting the key twice by mistake which would quickly flash them in and out of shroud. 3. My statement stands. While it could be a weapon swap because the tool tip does not mention it as such it was coded that way to make shroud function the way it does as there was likely no other way to do it within the games limitions. So yes shroud is functioning as it should be but as far as it rupt'ing interactions (as an instant skill) its likely a unintended thing as a result. That said there is not much reason to try and have it fixed because its technically not broken. Its what could be considered an "anomaly". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZDragon.3046 Posted June 11, 2018 Share Posted June 11, 2018 > @"Rym.1469" said: > > @"Wizardauz.3761" said: > > > @"DeceiverX.8361" said: > > > > @"Wizardauz.3761" said: > > > > > @"DeceiverX.8361" said: > > > > > If it didn't cancel everything, necro would be super bad to play. > > > > > > > > Explain. > > > > > > Begin casting any channeled animation or any animation at all to force a dodge roll, enter shroud, and now the skill you began casting is now no longer on cooldown (because it never fired), and you can punish a wasted dodge/negation with various shroud skills or simply absorb/negate any counterattacks the enemy may be trying to pull off. > > > > > > Similarly, you can fake people out by beginning to cast shroud skills and then swap out midway through into weapon skills to punish them, such as when people run out of range to avoid being hit by rshroud/dshroud 4/5 but don't burn defenses, letting you burn them down quickly via skills like Ghastly Claws, interrupted with OH WH, etc. > > > > > > Faking animations and forcing responses is a huge part of high-level PvP in this game. > > > > Ele attunement swap counts as a weapon swap and doesnt break channel effects. > > > > Plus, what would you cancel. > > > > GS5 Cancel only shortens the cast time a bit but still goes on full CD. same with GS4. > > > > Only ones able to be canceled are GS2 and 3. RShroud abilities able to be canceled to my knowledge is only RS5. RS2 instant casts, RS3, Instant, RS4 channeled and is put on CD once the channel has begun, RS5 is the only one i know of. > > You can absolutely cancel all the Greatsword skills. GS5 can be almost impossible to cancel properly without having the skill go on full cooldown you would need godly and well practice timing and very good ping to do it Its considered impossible to most players who attempt it. Every other skill can be canceled normally without any issue. > Also, Necromancers have access to the shadowstep stomp, it just involves two utilities - Spectral Walk and Flesh Wurm. Or use scourge portal to do it. Thats not worth it and its very gimmicky better off just cleaving the body. Dont really sit here and say necro has access to doing something liek that when it requires you to use 2 utilities to do it. IF it cant be done with one utility or one button press its not a true safe stomp play. > On a side note, it's about time FitG gets back on track. 2 stacks of stability and for 5s or one for 5s, but affecting allies as well would be a welcome - and much needed - buff. This trait has been in the dumpster since specialization rework left it in underpowered state of it's former self. This is a good idea minus the allies part. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anchoku.8142 Posted June 11, 2018 Share Posted June 11, 2018 > @"DragonFury.6243" said: > instant cast and breake out of stun skills dont interrupt stomping then why shroud do ???? Shroud transform is a defensive skill. Using it *should* break the stomp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZDragon.3046 Posted June 11, 2018 Share Posted June 11, 2018 > @"Anchoku.8142" said: > > @"DragonFury.6243" said: > > instant cast and breake out of stun skills dont interrupt stomping then why shroud do ???? > > Shroud transform is a defensive skill. Using it *should* break the stomp. Thats not directly true either LOL! This is the mess that necromancer is in right now. Core shroud (offensive skills) Reaper shroud (EXTRA offensive skills) Desert shroud (defensive barrier with pusling aoe) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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