Should espionage/sabotage be considered valid play?

[TheQuickFox.3826]

No, It is an unintended consequence of how tactivators work now. (Allowing activation by anyone, allowing EWP to be pulled when normal WP is just open, no mapwide message about who pulled)

 

I see it all the time. SM EWP gets pulled and within 5 minutes an enemy zerg arrives.

[Eloc Freidon.5692]

Being able to disguise and sabotage Towers and Forts would be cool.

[TheQuickFox.3826]

> @"Eloc Freidon.5692" said

> Being able to disguise and sabotage Towers and Forts would be cool.

 

Yes, we need to be able to set fire to supply depots and gates should have buttons to open them to let your 'friends' in. ;) :s

[starlinvf.1358]

> @"Heibi.4251" said:

> Basically just add a "Who last interacted with the tactic" note in the WvW tactics status and cool down tab. Obviously banners get used a lot so they don't matter as much, but Invulnerability and Emergency Way Point tactics aren't. In all reality though people who pull them as a way to help the enemy server are just players who lack maturity to play fair.

>

> Special note: In some towers, in EBG especially, the tactics are so close to the wall/nodes you might accidentally pull one if you don't pay attention.

 

> @"TheQuickFox.3826" said:

> No, It is an unintended consequence of how tactivators work now. (Allowing activation by anyone, allowing EWP to be pulled when normal WP is just open, no mapwide message about who pulled)

>

> I see it all the time. SM EWP gets pulled and within 5 minutes an enemy zerg arrives.

 

The while siege and defense system in the game is fundamentally flawed, because the premise of the Logistics system is also fundamentally flawed. The supply system exists solely to create a minimum player barrier to siege a location. As the structures tier up, this number increases. To counter act that, the defenses are a stalling tactic for reinforcements to show up. But that only becomes a requirement because of how the game handles respawns. Siege itself exacerbates this problem with their dynamics between open field and inner defense. Everything about it only makes sense because it perpetuates these flaws as a form play/counter play; its just we're so familiar with it at this point, we've come to accept it.

 

Unfortunately fixing this requires EVERYTHING to change. Maps and Structures have to be massively redesigned to control flow, most of the siege re-purposed to be a pressure element rather then a gating mechanism, a bigger distinction in outdoor and indoor use of siege, the entire respawn/reinforcement setup redesigned, a transit system to move chunks of players around the map to play off of it, and designing a system that can reward splitting a zerg on both offense and defense so blobing one section can't easily circumvent time windows. And yes, I'm fully aware of what that all means; and I'm also aware of where some ideas will very likely fail due to this game's emphasis on AOE.

 

For all the crap people give Desert BL, structures are much better designed, and much more fun to fight in. What sucks about it is transit. Transit and a lack of places for a good open field fight. If they took EBG's overall layout, and increased its size to accommodate bigger structures, fixed the spacing issue that allows for safe trebs from Keep/SMC and replace them with natural terrain advantages (ie exposed, but defensible), and better way to reinforce forward positions that isn't just "walk back"....... we can get most of everything we want, with the fewest number of flaws inherent with the current map setup.

 

The only remaining problem is the logistics system. Its something a lot harder to tackle without first addressing population balance; and needs to function in a way where distributing man power is more efficient then front loading it into hand full of individuals.

[SWI.4127]

I would only say it's fair if there weren't locked servers. Currently it's impossible to make a spy account on Blackgate for instance. Obviously that is not plausible though, so it's never really going to be "fair".

[Soggy Biscuit.9372]

If they want to win so desperately in this vidya game by investing time and extra account/s, more power to them. My only issue relative to this is raging sad fucks using spying accusations to deflect their suck and nerdrage onto random links.

[Oogabooga.3812]

> @"SWI.4127" said:

> I would only say it's fair if there weren't locked servers. Currently it's impossible to make a spy account on Blackgate for instance. Obviously that is not plausible though, so it's never really going to be "fair".

 

Yes BG is locked, but there are still spies doing aplenty of sabotage, even now. Heck they aren't even hiding their actions now: just constantly pulling tactics.

[Straegen.9534]

No counter play against it so ANet should come up with methods that inhibit tripping tactivators. Oh and the WP tagging thing REALLY needs an overhaul.

[Whiteout.1975]

> @"Oogabooga.3812" said:

> With tactivator pulling, supply draining, siege weapon turning, tag watching, etc., should these real world tactics be accepted?

> ## Should espionage/sabotage be considered valid play?

 

I can actually relate to the bottom three choices overall. So, I will try to revolve my opinion around those mainly. Then I will come to why I ended up voting for "Yes, only if we had ways to counter the spies when outed."

 

**Fairness**

Is it fair? I would say generally speaking... "**No**". What I would consider fair, is if each side has the same exact opportunities and abilities as each other, initially. In other words, each side would have to be, in a sense, a **mirror image** of each other basically. I know that's a little short. So let me give a quick example of what I mean by that.

- Say we at least have 2 spies. "1" on my server and "1" on your server. Our server spy is generally **only** a tag watcher, however your spy is **not only** a "tag watcher", but also drains supply and builds useless siege in places. I think most would consider that to be "**not fair**". Despite us each having at least 1 spy on each other's opposing servers. Then we would end up getting into play hours between each spy, their skill, ect... Ultimately there is just too much to account for between each and every spy; in relation to what is fair.

 

I know there are plenty more examples to be had, but I rather keep it short and to the point.

 

**Validity**

Gonna say, right off the bat... I think this is ultimately up for @Anet to decide. Them having the biggest voice and say so over their own game, you know. Though, without their input. I would say this... First, a definition of **valid**: [https://merriam-webster.com/dictionary/valid](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/valid "https://merriam-webster.com/dictionary/valid") I will be taking into account mainly examples 1 and 2 from the definition given there...

 

What I'm about to say is in no way implying "Just because you can do something, you should do something". Just gonna stop that train before it starts rolling... Anyways, taking into account of what **valid** means. The way I see it. If you and/or someone else, have enough intent and ability to do something that is at least generally known. Such as spying. Of which, ultimately being, with no "valid" grounds or conformation that would otherwise state... That you or they should not do so (as in against the rules)... Then I just don't see the problem.

 

So having said that thus far... Spying itself is nothing new in terms of War. It's meant to be unfair and if it's done to you. Chances are, you probably won't like it. Shocking I know... lol. I could not tell you exactly how many times our characters have taken on the act of spying/infiltration in this game in story. For the sake of turning the tides of war. Though, let's just say there has been plenty of times it has happened. There is even an Order ([https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Order_of_Whispers](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Order_of_Whispers "https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Order_of_Whispers")) That acts through utilizing spying/infiltration as their specialty. Just gonna stop it there. So if spying is deemed "Not OK"... then this game doesn't do a very good job of discouraging it... Lastly, if in game examples don't suit your fancy... use IRL examples for all I care.

 

**What I think of Spying**

I think... it's effective, cheap, a "**crutch**", generally "**unfair**" given what spying is up-front (attempting to conceal yourself from others). The ability to still carry out spy like actions when found kinda dumb/annoying... Just some generally common feelings that most others share I would say, at least. Though, the reason I voted for "Yes, only if we had ways to counter the spies when outed" is because it's the only choice that advocates for change. Where as the other two that I can also relate with, are just kinda general gripes. I just rather look for ways to make spying more reasonable/tolerable is all.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[googel.3278]

Trashdara from EU is known for these underhanded tactics, especially coming from T1. At least pull those tactics a bit better, germans are one step ahead of you guys, you need to step up the tactic pulling game!

[Remus Darkblight.1673]

There is no risk to this kind of play and it is clearly mechanically unintentional. Normally I'm all for this sort of thing, Eve Online is a very good example of a game with deep political power-play and subterfuge. Unfortunately Guild Wars 2 is not built to support that environment the way it is now.

 

Allow us to turn on spies, kill them, and kick them off our servers. Then we'll talk.

[Dreamy Lu.3865]

For me it is a simple no.

 

My personal opinion is that spying other servers is like every types of hacking and cheating: A misuse of the game for own - unfair - benefit. I can't agree on that in any way. And the argument "if it is not blocked/forbidden it means is OK" is just a very poor excuse to justify a not very nice behaviour.

Like said in another thread already, I have difficulty to understand how it is possible to get any feeling of pride or any sort of satisfaction at winning via cheating? For me, it is just a lack of ethic. But well, I am old school and probably by far too naive.

 

That being said, my opinion does not matter. I don't think that Anet or anyone else can do much about it. There are way too many players who find cheating a normal way to play. If they can no more on one side, they will just try on another side: They can simply not play regular. :/

[Straegen.9534]

There is no counter play to it so they should address it as best they can. I would settle for the incessant tagging of waypoints to be addressed.