BlueMelody.6398 Posted June 10, 2018 Share Posted June 10, 2018 > @"Israel.7056" said: > > @"Mil.3562" said: > > So you are saying those with low hp base and wearing light or medium armours and without Ageis or invulnerability skills are bad players? > > If they're dying constantly yes. I swapped to full nomad/minstrel gear and that stopped the dying for the most part. My skill didn't change one iota, it's 100% a matter of build and gear. Go full tank, never charge, just hang back and pew-pew. You'll live, and it's boring as fuck. Well, even full nomad/minstrel hasn't stopped me from getting instagibbed coming out of spawn by a party of cheese-build stealth gankers. I guess not being able to react in .00000001 second to that kind of burst makes me a baddie, as it does to every other person who's experiencing that now. Sorry, but being able to instagib a player has nothing to do with skill. 5 cheese build baddies can take out a diamond legend coming out spawn if they just coordinate properly. Guess those baddies are better than that legend after all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Israel.7056 Posted June 10, 2018 Author Share Posted June 10, 2018 > @"BlueMelody.6398" said: > I swapped to full nomad/minstrel gear and that stopped the dying for the most part. My skill didn't change one iota, it's 100% a matter of build and gear. Go full tank, never charge, just hang back and pew-pew. You'll live, and it's boring as kitten. > > Well, even full nomad/minstrel hasn't stopped me from getting instagibbed coming out of spawn by a party of cheese-build stealth gankers. I guess not being able to react in .00000001 second to that kind of burst makes me a baddie, as it does to every other person who's experiencing that now. > > Sorry, but being able to instagib a player has nothing to do with skill. 5 cheese build baddies can take out a diamond legend coming out spawn if they just coordinate properly. Guess those baddies are better than that legend after all. Anyone can use build and gear to give themselves a larger margin for error to cover for a lack of skill but the tradeoff is that they can't really kill anything. This has always been the case it's just that without downed state the game gives greater priority to people who can play glassy stuff and land their damage without dying constantly and that takes skill. Essentially you and anyone having the same problems as you this week have always had these problem it's just that the downed state mechanic hid them from you. Now you're really getting to see the holes in your game so to speak because you're paying dearly for every major error whereas before maybe someone would've ressed you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueMelody.6398 Posted June 10, 2018 Share Posted June 10, 2018 > @"Israel.7056" said: > > @"BlueMelody.6398" said: > > I swapped to full nomad/minstrel gear and that stopped the dying for the most part. My skill didn't change one iota, it's 100% a matter of build and gear. Go full tank, never charge, just hang back and pew-pew. You'll live, and it's boring as kitten. > > > > Well, even full nomad/minstrel hasn't stopped me from getting instagibbed coming out of spawn by a party of cheese-build stealth gankers. I guess not being able to react in .00000001 second to that kind of burst makes me a baddie, as it does to every other person who's experiencing that now. > > > > Sorry, but being able to instagib a player has nothing to do with skill. 5 cheese build baddies can take out a diamond legend coming out spawn if they just coordinate properly. Guess those baddies are better than that legend after all. > > Anyone can use build and gear to give themselves a larger margin for error to cover for a lack of skill but the tradeoff is that they can't really kill anything. This has always been the case it's just that without downed state the game gives greater priority to people who can play glassy stuff and land their damage without dying constantly and that takes skill. Essentially you and anyone having the same problems as you this week have always had these problem it's just that the downed state mechanic hid them from you. Now you're really getting to see the holes in your game so to speak because you're paying dearly for every major error whereas before maybe someone would've ressed you. I'm not paying dearly for any error, I'm generally only dying when I get stealth ganked coming out of spawn, and that has *nothing* to do with either my skill or the 5 gankers playing risk-free fish-in-a-barrel from stealth. It does NOT take ANY skill outside of coordination to hide in stealth and burst down a target, and then retreat if enough of their friends come along. Cheese tactics <> skill. Last night I switched to tanky rev with a hammer and now I'm getting kills but still not dying because now I can pew-pew from range. Melee classes absolutely suck in this pirate-ship world. No-downed state has very little to do with skill, unless you call tanking up, super-cautious range play "skill". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silinsar.6298 Posted June 10, 2018 Share Posted June 10, 2018 > @"BlueMelody.6398" said: > Well, even full nomad/minstrel hasn't stopped me from getting instagibbed coming out of spawn by a party of cheese-build stealth gankers. I guess not being able to react in .00000001 second to that kind of burst makes me a baddie, as it does to every other person who's experiencing that now. Ganks happen no matter if there's downed state or not. If you die instantly to gankers and you have no one around suited to fight them, you'd die a few seconds later anyway. But when there's no downed state and you get jumped and you aren't full tank, you at least have better chances to kill one of the gankers before they kill you (they're usually pretty glassy). People just notice more gankers now because many players got their ganking builds out for the event. But ganks happened since day one and are just as deadly when you drop to downed state before you die. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meviken.2054 Posted June 10, 2018 Share Posted June 10, 2018 > @"aspirine.5839" said: > > @"Meviken.2054" said: > > > @"aspirine.5839" said: > > > How are you dying from siege if you are in a zerg. Really how many times do you die from AC fire? That hardly does any damage at all. > > > > Having killed a few with siege when they were in zerg, it's really not that hard. Miss your dodge, and five ganged catapults smash you in the ground. An arrow cart doesn't do that much damage, but twenty of them at a time would. And trebs can be used on zergs to great effect. Yep. Killed a few that way, too, and got the bags. > > I have never seen that situation in whole of WvW though. Perhaps a few like 2 or max 3 ac's. And that usually is not even enough to make a dent in the healing power a blob group has :/ True enough. At a fortification, the defenders would also need cannon, catas, ballistas. ACs are not the be-all and end-all of fort defense, and at some point, you need actual fighters to get down on the field and mow down the enemy. I have killed a few players with an AC when they were being chased by others, or were low on hit points for some reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alphafert.6730 Posted June 10, 2018 Share Posted June 10, 2018 > @"Gwaihir.1745" said: > > @"alphafert.6730" said: > > > @"Gwaihir.1745" said: > > > > @"BlueMelody.6398" said: > > > > This is amazing for stealth+burst gankers, and arrow cart wizards, and absolute anathema for melee-only zerg players and identifiable commanders (pin-sniping is a thing). > > > > > > > > This should definitely not be a permanent thing. > > > > > > Permanent? No, but some huge changes to down state/ other mechanics. > > > 1. No invuln phase upon being downed. > > > 2. Greatly reduced res speed of down state players. > > > 3. No damaging skills from down state. Only a cc and the skill 4 heal to get yourself back up. You lost your hp, you don't get to continue the fight so enjoy watching from the sidelines. That guy taking you on 1v3 doesn't deserve to have a down picking away when by all means that player has lost until they are revived. > > > 4. No visible commander tag to opposing players. > > > 5. Rework of scrapper and other traits affecting down skills. > > > > > > > @"alphafert.6730" said: > > > > I am not a fan. I have played gw2 for over a year but just recently our small guild (3) got a guild hall and it is kind of forcing us to pvp/wvw. We can often do ok with our missions but (maybe its lack of skill) we res each other a lot getting us back much faster than running. This is going to cut out quite a few missions for us. pvp/wvw has been kind of an off-puting experience anyway > > > > > > You can still ress though? It just means that you don't get to bring a guy back until the fight is decided which is perfectly fine since they by all means lost. Should you win the fight its not a long wait to get your team back up. > > > > Often one of us will occupy enemy while the other resses. You can't res from dead while in combat so yes this kinda puts an end to any cap/hold missions for us. > > > > I also got killed several times trying to leave the spawn to meet up with the com on our map last night. A few of those times several friendlies past by just after death chasing off the enemy but by the time I respawned they were long gone leaving me to get killed again. Its not like I am going out with just any random build. I researched meta but there is no learning curve when a player appears & near insta kills well inside our territory. Its fine though, if you want only elites in wvw/pvp & no new players. I don't mind finding a new game as I am pretty much bored with pve > > Thats not what im seeing at all. I've been asked for my build multiple times from newer players this week, and even some run of the mill weekly zerg players. They WANT to get better now because its obvious that theyre struggling when they get picked mid zerg. This is in no way locking out the new players for only 'elites' as you say. Is it harder? Yes. But new players actually wanting to learn to fight is alot better than just shoving them into a zerg and saying here run this you go down we pick you up. > > And before anyone calls me out, im playing core guard with no 25% movement speed rune to get back to the fight if i die. (or passive, lol) My experience of this game has been pve players are very helpful, pvp/wvw you are on your own good luck (unless you take a necro in pvp, then you get chastised). I don't have a lot of game time & constantly being killed by the spawn is not fun. I will not play wvw this week as I don't like the change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Israel.7056 Posted June 10, 2018 Author Share Posted June 10, 2018 > @"BlueMelody.6398" said: > I'm not paying dearly for any error, I'm generally only dying when I get stealth ganked coming out of spawn, and that has *nothing* to do with either my skill or the 5 gankers playing risk-free fish-in-a-barrel from stealth. It does NOT take ANY skill outside of coordination to hide in stealth and burst down a target, and then retreat if enough of their friends come along. Cheese tactics <> skill. > > Last night I switched to tanky rev with a hammer and now I'm getting kills but still not dying because now I can pew-pew from range. Melee classes absolutely suck in this pirate-ship world. No-downed state has very little to do with skill, unless you call tanking up, super-cautious range play "skill". What in your mind actually takes a lot of mechanical skill in this game? In my mind most of the challenge of this game is not actually mechanical but rather coordination, quick intelligent and precise decision making, fast reaction times, the ability to improvise, use of strategy and tactics, map knowledge, situational awareness, positioning and ofcourse buildcraft. So while mechanically the game is relatively simple there's still a world of difference between good players and bad players because bad players play builds they can't handle, they make coordination errors, they can't improvise, they have poor situational awareness etc etc and so they end up dying a lot and in my experience they rarely understand what happened to them. No downed state by itself only decreases margin for error in combat everything else is exactly the same as before. You have to use all the tools at your disposal to deal with that decreased margin for error. If the best you can do to stay alive is to tank up and play at range then do it. There's nothing wrong with that do what you have to do. Melee is always risky as it should be, but with no downed state you really have to be careful about when and how you engage in melee. You shouldn't just be able to mindlessly push straight into people or terrible positions and get carried by sustain and ressing. If you're getting ganked repeatedly walking out of spawn and you know where they are then obviously your error is in going out the same way over and over and letting them gank you. No downstate doesn't change anything in this scenario you would've died to them anyways. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alphafert.6730 Posted June 10, 2018 Share Posted June 10, 2018 > @"Rampage.7145" said: > > @"alphafert.6730" said: > > > @"Gwaihir.1745" said: > > > > @"alphafert.6730" said: > > > > > @"Gwaihir.1745" said: > > > > > > @"BlueMelody.6398" said: > > > > > > This is amazing for stealth+burst gankers, and arrow cart wizards, and absolute anathema for melee-only zerg players and identifiable commanders (pin-sniping is a thing). > > > > > > > > > > > > This should definitely not be a permanent thing. > > > > > > > > > > Permanent? No, but some huge changes to down state/ other mechanics. > > > > > 1. No invuln phase upon being downed. > > > > > 2. Greatly reduced res speed of down state players. > > > > > 3. No damaging skills from down state. Only a cc and the skill 4 heal to get yourself back up. You lost your hp, you don't get to continue the fight so enjoy watching from the sidelines. That guy taking you on 1v3 doesn't deserve to have a down picking away when by all means that player has lost until they are revived. > > > > > 4. No visible commander tag to opposing players. > > > > > 5. Rework of scrapper and other traits affecting down skills. > > > > > > > > > > > @"alphafert.6730" said: > > > > > > I am not a fan. I have played gw2 for over a year but just recently our small guild (3) got a guild hall and it is kind of forcing us to pvp/wvw. We can often do ok with our missions but (maybe its lack of skill) we res each other a lot getting us back much faster than running. This is going to cut out quite a few missions for us. pvp/wvw has been kind of an off-puting experience anyway > > > > > > > > > > You can still ress though? It just means that you don't get to bring a guy back until the fight is decided which is perfectly fine since they by all means lost. Should you win the fight its not a long wait to get your team back up. > > > > > > > > Often one of us will occupy enemy while the other resses. You can't res from dead while in combat so yes this kinda puts an end to any cap/hold missions for us. > > > > > > > > I also got killed several times trying to leave the spawn to meet up with the com on our map last night. A few of those times several friendlies past by just after death chasing off the enemy but by the time I respawned they were long gone leaving me to get killed again. Its not like I am going out with just any random build. I researched meta but there is no learning curve when a player appears & near insta kills well inside our territory. Its fine though, if you want only elites in wvw/pvp & no new players. I don't mind finding a new game as I am pretty much bored with pve > > > > > > Thats not what im seeing at all. I've been asked for my build multiple times from newer players this week, and even some run of the mill weekly zerg players. They WANT to get better now because its obvious that theyre struggling when they get picked mid zerg. This is in no way locking out the new players for only 'elites' as you say. Is it harder? Yes. But new players actually wanting to learn to fight is alot better than just shoving them into a zerg and saying here run this you go down we pick you up. > > > > > > And before anyone calls me out, im playing core guard with no 25% movement speed rune to get back to the fight if i die. (or passive, lol) > > > > My experience of this game has been pve players are very helpful, pvp/wvw you are on your own good luck (unless you take a necro in pvp, then you get chastised). I don't have a lot of game time & constantly being killed by the spawn is not fun. I will not play wvw this week as I don't like the change. > > U would die anyway if u get ganked like that imo, i mean are u seriously this dumb? It would just take a few extra seconds For starters I don't need to insult people to prove a point (at least I understand how to use caps & full words). This event encourages ganking, I have yet to experience this before this event & if you read previous posts several times allies have chased them off only for them to be back after I respawn. Its just not worth my time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaruselka.5943 Posted June 10, 2018 Share Posted June 10, 2018 I think it makes the game play a little more fast paced which is nice. But if it does become permanent they will have to make changes to a lot of res focused skills (function gyro anyone?). Given the amount of rework involved I seriously doubt it is here to stay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swagger.1459 Posted June 10, 2018 Share Posted June 10, 2018 > @"Israel.7056" said: > > @"BlueMelody.6398" said: > > I swapped to full nomad/minstrel gear and that stopped the dying for the most part. My skill didn't change one iota, it's 100% a matter of build and gear. Go full tank, never charge, just hang back and pew-pew. You'll live, and it's boring as kitten. > > > > Well, even full nomad/minstrel hasn't stopped me from getting instagibbed coming out of spawn by a party of cheese-build stealth gankers. I guess not being able to react in .00000001 second to that kind of burst makes me a baddie, as it does to every other person who's experiencing that now. > > > > Sorry, but being able to instagib a player has nothing to do with skill. 5 cheese build baddies can take out a diamond legend coming out spawn if they just coordinate properly. Guess those baddies are better than that legend after all. > > Anyone can use build and gear to give themselves a larger margin for error to cover for a lack of skill but the tradeoff is that they can't really kill anything. This has always been the case it's just that without downed state the game gives greater priority to people who can play glassy stuff and land their damage without dying constantly and that takes skill. Essentially you and anyone having the same problems as you this week have always had these problem it's just that the downed state mechanic hid them from you. Now you're really getting to see the holes in your game so to speak because you're paying dearly for every major error whereas before maybe someone would've ressed you. You are acting as if the Downed mechanic is just some simple combat element that doesn't have a ton of design implications... From alpha, the Downed, Rally and Revive mechanics in this game were factored into every element of combat, and were put in for specific reasons... A removal of Downed State would mean a ton of other changes would be needed to make for tasteful competitive gameplay. http://gw2101.gtm.guildwars2.com/en/the-game/combat/healing-death/ "Hi, I'm Jon Peters, one of the game designers on Guild Wars 2. While Colin Johanson has been busy working on a secret project involving V8 Juice and moa birds, we've been deciding how death and resurrection will work in Guild Wars 2 and what this means for the basic damage/tank/heal paradigm so familiar to MMO players. Defeat in Guild Wars 2 is intended to be an experience, not a punishment. Let's face it: dying never feels great, even without a death penalty. As weird as it might sound, we decided to look into what would make dying a more enjoyable and memorable play experience. Rather than being presented with immediate failure, when a player loses all of their health in Guild Wars 2, they are put into "downed mode." In this mode, the player has a number of downed skills they can use to target enemies and fight for a chance to survive. A downed player can still be attacked, which will send them into a defeated state, leaving them to either wait for an ally to resurrect them or to resurrect at a waypoint. Downed skills are less-powerful skills that a player can use in a last-ditch effort to turn the tide. A warrior might daze an enemy by throwing a rock. An elementalist might lock down their foe with Grasping Earth. While you are downed, if you manage to kill an enemy, you will rally, returning to life to fight again. When you rally, you are thrust right back in the action. This potential to rally from the edge of defeat adds greater drama to combat and gives a player some tactical control while in a state where they normally have none. Some professions will have special skills that will instantly rally a fallen ally. For example, when a warrior uses "I Will Avenge You," and then kills an enemy nearby his fallen allies, his allies will rally. While you are downed or defeated, any other player can come to you and interact with you to bring you back to life. We call this "reviving," and everyone, regardless of profession, can do this starting at Level 1." https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Downed https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Rally https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Revival "without downed state the game gives greater priority to people who can play glassy stuff and land their damage without dying constantly and that takes skill."... If you consider making builds that can spam damage and run to avoid death (because that's what you are essentially saying), then you don't know what healthy mmo combat should look like. And "glassy stuff" ( aka zerker meta) was a trend that the devs wanted to veer away from because they know it's unhealthy for the game (watch Irenio in the vid)... http://dulfy.net/2015/09/25/gw2-druid-ranger-elite-specialization-livestream-reveal/ You appear to be stuck in the GW2 "vanilla" mindset and seem to think changes that promote "glassy stuff" is somehow healthy, when it's not. You may like the 1 dimensional Damage-Damage-Damage "trinity", but you should realize that it is one (of many) of the reasons why GW2 wvw and spvp has a poor reputation and long term participation and retention. Esports failed hard. WvW struggles to keep players and we need links to salvage this mode. Alliances are coming to mask how bad the state of population in wvw really is. "Essentially you and anyone having the same problems as you this week have always had these problem it's just that the downed state mechanic hid them from you. Now you're really getting to see the holes in your game so to speak because you're paying dearly for every major error whereas before maybe someone would've ressed you." Nope, now we are getting to see the "holes" in the game design... and lack of resources directed to professions, combat designs and this mode, being highlighted even more... None of which have to do with any player deficiencies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rampage.7145 Posted June 10, 2018 Share Posted June 10, 2018 double post i am bad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bezerker.2379 Posted June 10, 2018 Share Posted June 10, 2018 > @"Israel.7056" said: > I made a post years ago talking about getting rid of downed state and I've had to wait this long to get to try it out but it's just as awesome as I thought it would be. > > No downstate is amazing ANET please consider making this a permanent feature. > > It makes the combat much feel more tense and high stakes and it feels great to just blow people up and be done with them. > > It also makes outnumbered fights much more feasible which is always good imo. > > Seriously please consider making this a permanent change to WvW. > Please no. The no downstate weekend is fun, but this is not fun long term. Downstate is a huge part of the game. It has problems in zergs, I'll admit, for for small group roaming it just changes the game too much. I am NOT enjoying this weekend, and I play a deadeye ironically. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alphafert.6730 Posted June 10, 2018 Share Posted June 10, 2018 > @"Rampage.7145" said: > > @"alphafert.6730" said: > > > @"Rampage.7145" said: > > > > @"alphafert.6730" said: > > > > > @"Gwaihir.1745" said: > > > > > > @"alphafert.6730" said: > > > > > > > @"Gwaihir.1745" said: > > > > > > > > @"BlueMelody.6398" said: > > > > > > > > This is amazing for stealth+burst gankers, and arrow cart wizards, and absolute anathema for melee-only zerg players and identifiable commanders (pin-sniping is a thing). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This should definitely not be a permanent thing. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Permanent? No, but some huge changes to down state/ other mechanics. > > > > > > > 1. No invuln phase upon being downed. > > > > > > > 2. Greatly reduced res speed of down state players. > > > > > > > 3. No damaging skills from down state. Only a cc and the skill 4 heal to get yourself back up. You lost your hp, you don't get to continue the fight so enjoy watching from the sidelines. That guy taking you on 1v3 doesn't deserve to have a down picking away when by all means that player has lost until they are revived. > > > > > > > 4. No visible commander tag to opposing players. > > > > > > > 5. Rework of scrapper and other traits affecting down skills. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"alphafert.6730" said: > > > > > > > > I am not a fan. I have played gw2 for over a year but just recently our small guild (3) got a guild hall and it is kind of forcing us to pvp/wvw. We can often do ok with our missions but (maybe its lack of skill) we res each other a lot getting us back much faster than running. This is going to cut out quite a few missions for us. pvp/wvw has been kind of an off-puting experience anyway > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You can still ress though? It just means that you don't get to bring a guy back until the fight is decided which is perfectly fine since they by all means lost. Should you win the fight its not a long wait to get your team back up. > > > > > > > > > > > > Often one of us will occupy enemy while the other resses. You can't res from dead while in combat so yes this kinda puts an end to any cap/hold missions for us. > > > > > > > > > > > > I also got killed several times trying to leave the spawn to meet up with the com on our map last night. A few of those times several friendlies past by just after death chasing off the enemy but by the time I respawned they were long gone leaving me to get killed again. Its not like I am going out with just any random build. I researched meta but there is no learning curve when a player appears & near insta kills well inside our territory. Its fine though, if you want only elites in wvw/pvp & no new players. I don't mind finding a new game as I am pretty much bored with pve > > > > > > > > > > Thats not what im seeing at all. I've been asked for my build multiple times from newer players this week, and even some run of the mill weekly zerg players. They WANT to get better now because its obvious that theyre struggling when they get picked mid zerg. This is in no way locking out the new players for only 'elites' as you say. Is it harder? Yes. But new players actually wanting to learn to fight is alot better than just shoving them into a zerg and saying here run this you go down we pick you up. > > > > > > > > > > And before anyone calls me out, im playing core guard with no 25% movement speed rune to get back to the fight if i die. (or passive, lol) > > > > > > > > My experience of this game has been pve players are very helpful, pvp/wvw you are on your own good luck (unless you take a necro in pvp, then you get chastised). I don't have a lot of game time & constantly being killed by the spawn is not fun. I will not play wvw this week as I don't like the change. > > > > > > U would die anyway if u get ganked like that imo, i mean are u seriously this dumb? It would just take a few extra seconds > > > > For starters I don't need to insult people to prove a point (at least I understand how to use caps & full words). This event encourages ganking, I have yet to experience this before this event & if you read previous posts several times allies have chased them off only for them to be back after I respawn. Its just not worth my time. > > Only thing event does for ganking is allowing to 1 v 5 to be possible which is a good thing, for example if a very skilled thief can take out 3 or 4 people props to him he should be rewarded for his insane skill, having downstate just rewards zerging with bigger numbers 111111 around zombie blobbing rezzing people and rolling over smaller numbers, that analogy with the thief applies to all group sizes, if you can generate kills while being outnumbered u have a chance to win, but downstate makes this very hard for the smaller because the big group will always have a very easy time rezzing people while the small group the soon they start dying will never have a chance to rezz anybody due massive AOE pressure (from being outnumbered) by the big blob, downstate just benefits the big blobs vs small numbers and the bad players, with no downstate u make a mistake u die that is totally on you, this is a much better PvP ruleset, that being forgiving about dying just because u have more allies. > > P.S if you are getting ganked at your spwn u are probably a terrible player hence u deserve to be punished and die tbh, i mean there is no way arround this, it is 100% a L2P issue, dont wanna die like a bad??? well be a better player, do not expect terrible PvP game mechanics to carry u, that is just dumb, hence why of my original post. If you read through before posting I already mentioned that is an elitist attitude. I never claimed to be good but I do try to use good builds (even though I prefer other builds pve). I play casually & have no chance against a seasoned player. I only really do wvw for legendary & guild hall. I do mildly enjoy it but not as is. Its not like I am trying to solo roam/cap camps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Israel.7056 Posted June 10, 2018 Author Share Posted June 10, 2018 > @"Swagger.1459" said: > You are acting as if the Downed mechanic is just some simple combat element that doesn't have a ton of design implications... From alpha, the Downed, Rally and Revive mechanics in this game were factored into every element of combat, and were put in for specific reasons... A removal of Downed State would mean a ton of other changes would be needed to make for tasteful competitive gameplay. Lol "tasteful competitive gameplay." What would that mean exactly I wonder? > "Hi, I'm Jon Peters, one of the game designers on Guild Wars 2. While Colin Johanson has been busy working on a secret project involving V8 Juice and moa birds, we've been deciding how death and resurrection will work in Guild Wars 2 and what this means for the basic damage/tank/heal paradigm so familiar to MMO players. > Defeat in Guild Wars 2 is intended to be an experience, not a punishment. Let's face it: dying never feels great, even without a death penalty. As weird as it might sound, we decided to look into what would make dying a more enjoyable and memorable play experience. > Rather than being presented with immediate failure, when a player loses all of their health in Guild Wars 2, they are put into "downed mode." In this mode, the player has a number of downed skills they can use to target enemies and fight for a chance to survive. A downed player can still be attacked, which will send them into a defeated state, leaving them to either wait for an ally to resurrect them or to resurrect at a waypoint. > Downed skills are less-powerful skills that a player can use in a last-ditch effort to turn the tide. A warrior might daze an enemy by throwing a rock. An elementalist might lock down their foe with Grasping Earth. While you are downed, if you manage to kill an enemy, you will rally, returning to life to fight again. When you rally, you are thrust right back in the action. This potential to rally from the edge of defeat adds greater drama to combat and gives a player some tactical control while in a state where they normally have none. > Some professions will have special skills that will instantly rally a fallen ally. For example, when a warrior uses "I Will Avenge You," and then kills an enemy nearby his fallen allies, his allies will rally. While you are downed or defeated, any other player can come to you and interact with you to bring you back to life. We call this "reviving," and everyone, regardless of profession, can do this starting at Level 1." Yeah i think we all understand the original idea of downed state. In theory it sounds great but in practice it just protects people from their own errors and gives larger groups an inherent advantage against smaller groups. > "without downed state the game gives greater priority to people who can play glassy stuff and land their damage without dying constantly and that takes skill."... If you consider making builds that can spam damage and run to avoid death (because that's what you are essentially saying), then you don't know what healthy mmo combat should look like. And "glassy stuff" ( aka zerker meta) was a trend that the devs wanted to veer away from because they know it's unhealthy for the game (watch Irenio in the vid)... http://dulfy.net/2015/09/25/gw2-druid-ranger-elite-specialization-livestream-reveal/ The builds that work are the ones that either have a huge alpha and can move quickly or ones that have enough passive defense and mobility that they can get in and around players and kill before they get killed, or groups that stay super tight on their pin and really move well as a unit and get their damage in one place as is happening right now on EU. I saw Zudo run over 50 people with probably 25 yesterday it was impressive. Either way the combat is much faster and every play is much higher stakes because of how fast you can be killed. I know what combat that I like looks like and this is much closer to it than what combat looks like with downed state. Combat with downed state is incredibly forgiving for bad players who either have slow reflexes or bad situational awareness or timing or positioning because they can get completely destroyed and then get a second or third or fourth chance. These are the sorts of players having a hard time this week because they're used to being able to make horrendous errors and never pay for them. I think no downstate is tremendously healthy for the game because a good 20 man can now take on 60 bad players and actually have a chance of winning which means it incentivizes skill groups as opposed to giant pug blobs. Put this in play for a month or two and everyone will start trying to reorganize into smaller more well organized groups instead of everyone just running map blobs on whatever pin happens to be on atm. Downed state is at the crux of the death of the skill group because with downed state 60 bad players can beat 20 well organized good players pretty easily and that's been very unhealthy for the game as we have seen so many skill groups leave to find other games where numbers mean less than organization and skill. Maybe they will come back now. > You appear to be stuck in the GW2 "vanilla" mindset and seem to think changes that promote "glassy stuff" is somehow healthy, when it's not. You may like the 1 dimensional Damage-Damage-Damage "trinity", but you should realize that it is one (of many) of the reasons why GW2 wvw and spvp has a poor reputation and long term participation and retention. Esports failed hard. WvW struggles to keep players and we need links to salvage this mode. Alliances are coming to mask how bad the state of population in wvw really is. You and I are going to have to agree to disagree on this one because I've been playing this game a long time and I've known and played with a lot of the people who have left this game and I can tell you that I never heard any of them complaining about how there was too much damage in the game. They left because they realized that 60 bad players blobbing around was a more effective way to organize than a 20 man skill group and that sapped them of their desire to play the game. The two things making that a reality in this game are 1.) 5 player aoe caps 2.) Downed state that allows a much larger group to chain res through the damage of smaller groups. Removing downed state removes one of the big obstacles for small skill groups to succeed. > None of which have to do with any player deficiencies. Yes it does. Right now certain players are getting punished harder for bad decisions and bad situational awareness and bad positioning and bad organization and they're mad about it because they're used to being able to get away with those sorts of mistakes. I'm doing great, I have died a lot more than I usually do but every time I've died it has been because of me making mistakes. Give me a few months with the game like this and I will stop making those mistakes and be a much better player for it and so will these other players if they stop whining and figure out what they're doing wrong and fix it. But that won't happen. They will probably just skip the week and then come back when they know they can safely hide in their blob again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grave of hearts.7830 Posted June 10, 2018 Share Posted June 10, 2018 Well in my opinion this works better for the people who got tired of downing half the enemy scourge blob only to see them pulled away and passively ressed. The downed state resses made wvw stale in a really baaaad way,because its always some unskilled commander stacking scourges and boonspammers and just keeps repeatedly hitting an objective nowadays. Wheres the skill in that? Now at least both the defenders will gain something for spiking enemies one after another and make progress towards repelling the enemy,and the attacking commander will get at least punished for doing mistakes which might make him improve on the future. People complaining about pinsniping and ganker groups,there is no real difference between downed state and without since those existed with downed state as well. The only difference i see is that the ganking group will not waste ten seconds of watching people squirm on the floor,and neither the guy who just got bagged since he will instantly res and ragerush back to get back at them. Siege exist on both sides,the only ones complaining about siege and no downed state are the very same people that get carried by scourge blobs and are too scared without theyr safety net (aka brainless transfusion spam). All in all from my point of view this temporary change made wvw back into the fun it was before the boonspam started infesting this game,were organisation was rewarded and mistakes in movement and position got punished. I am going to enjoy it while it lasts,will be nice if it returns more often but i wont hold my breath over it since there are a lot of bandwagons crying that they cant ktrain without downed state. Best change in gw2 ever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swagger.1459 Posted June 10, 2018 Share Posted June 10, 2018 > @"Israel.7056" said: > > @"Swagger.1459" said: > > You are acting as if the Downed mechanic is just some simple combat element that doesn't have a ton of design implications... From alpha, the Downed, Rally and Revive mechanics in this game were factored into every element of combat, and were put in for specific reasons... A removal of Downed State would mean a ton of other changes would be needed to make for tasteful competitive gameplay. > > Lol "tasteful competitive gameplay." What would that mean exactly I wonder? > > > "Hi, I'm Jon Peters, one of the game designers on Guild Wars 2. While Colin Johanson has been busy working on a secret project involving V8 Juice and moa birds, we've been deciding how death and resurrection will work in Guild Wars 2 and what this means for the basic damage/tank/heal paradigm so familiar to MMO players. > > Defeat in Guild Wars 2 is intended to be an experience, not a punishment. Let's face it: dying never feels great, even without a death penalty. As weird as it might sound, we decided to look into what would make dying a more enjoyable and memorable play experience. > > Rather than being presented with immediate failure, when a player loses all of their health in Guild Wars 2, they are put into "downed mode." In this mode, the player has a number of downed skills they can use to target enemies and fight for a chance to survive. A downed player can still be attacked, which will send them into a defeated state, leaving them to either wait for an ally to resurrect them or to resurrect at a waypoint. > > Downed skills are less-powerful skills that a player can use in a last-ditch effort to turn the tide. A warrior might daze an enemy by throwing a rock. An elementalist might lock down their foe with Grasping Earth. While you are downed, if you manage to kill an enemy, you will rally, returning to life to fight again. When you rally, you are thrust right back in the action. This potential to rally from the edge of defeat adds greater drama to combat and gives a player some tactical control while in a state where they normally have none. > > Some professions will have special skills that will instantly rally a fallen ally. For example, when a warrior uses "I Will Avenge You," and then kills an enemy nearby his fallen allies, his allies will rally. While you are downed or defeated, any other player can come to you and interact with you to bring you back to life. We call this "reviving," and everyone, regardless of profession, can do this starting at Level 1." > > Yeah i think we all understand the original idea of downed state. In theory it sounds great but in practice it just protects people from their own errors and gives larger groups an inherent advantage against smaller groups. > > > "without downed state the game gives greater priority to people who can play glassy stuff and land their damage without dying constantly and that takes skill."... If you consider making builds that can spam damage and run to avoid death (because that's what you are essentially saying), then you don't know what healthy mmo combat should look like. And "glassy stuff" ( aka zerker meta) was a trend that the devs wanted to veer away from because they know it's unhealthy for the game (watch Irenio in the vid)... http://dulfy.net/2015/09/25/gw2-druid-ranger-elite-specialization-livestream-reveal/ > > The builds that work are the ones that either have a huge alpha and can move quickly or ones that have enough passive defense and mobility that they can get in and around players and kill before they get killed, or groups that stay super tight on their pin and really move well as a unit and get their damage in one place as is happening right now on EU. I saw Zudo run over 50 people with probably 25 yesterday it was impressive. Either way the combat is much faster and every play is much higher stakes because of how fast you can be killed. I know what combat that I like looks like and this is much closer to it than what combat looks like with downed state. Combat with downed state is incredibly forgiving for bad players who either have slow reflexes or bad situational awareness or timing or positioning because they can get completely destroyed and then get a second or third or fourth chance. These are the sorts of players having a hard time this week because they're used to being able to make horrendous errors and never pay for them. > > I think no downstate is tremendously healthy for the game because a good 20 man can now take on 60 bad players and actually have a chance of winning which means it incentivizes skill groups as opposed to giant pug blobs. Put this in play for a month or two and everyone will start trying to reorganize into smaller more well organized groups instead of everyone just running map blobs on whatever pin happens to be on atm. Downed state is at the crux of the death of the skill group because with downed state 60 bad players can beat 20 well organized good players pretty easily and that's been very unhealthy for the game as we have seen so many skill groups leave to find other games where numbers mean less than organization and skill. Maybe they will come back now. > > > You appear to be stuck in the GW2 "vanilla" mindset and seem to think changes that promote "glassy stuff" is somehow healthy, when it's not. You may like the 1 dimensional Damage-Damage-Damage "trinity", but you should realize that it is one (of many) of the reasons why GW2 wvw and spvp has a poor reputation and long term participation and retention. Esports failed hard. WvW struggles to keep players and we need links to salvage this mode. Alliances are coming to mask how bad the state of population in wvw really is. > > You and I are going to have to agree to disagree on this one because I've been playing this game a long time and I've known and played with a lot of the people who have left this game and I can tell you that I never heard any of them complaining about how there was too much damage in the game. They left because they realized that 60 bad players blobbing around was a more effective way to organize than a 20 man skill group and that sapped them of their desire to play the game. The two things making that a reality in this game are 1.) 5 player aoe caps 2.) Downed state that allows a much larger group to chain res through the damage of smaller groups. Removing downed state removes one of the big obstacles for small skill groups to succeed. > > > None of which have to do with any player deficiencies. > > Yes it does. Right now certain players are getting punished harder for bad decisions and bad situational awareness and bad positioning and bad organization and they're mad about it because they're used to being able to get away with those sorts of mistakes. I'm doing great, I have died a lot more than I usually do but every time I've died it has been because of me making mistakes. Give me a few months with the game like this and I will stop making those mistakes and be a much better player for it and so will these other players if they stop whining and figure out what they're doing wrong and fix it. But that won't happen. They will probably just skip the week and then come back when they know they can safely hide in their blob again. > > You should focus on the "ton of other changes" part instead... and think about more than "feels great to just blow people up and be done with them"... You should also look at things from a broader view (health of the entire mode and the diverse amount of players in it). Spend more time asking yourself why such mechanics exist in this particular game, not just look at things from a limited view point and by your individual "feeling". You obviously don't understand why down state exists, and how it relates to the design of professions and combat. Again, you just want to "blow things up" and have a tough time with harder fought battles. You want as easy as possible wins, and that's pretty clear by your statements. You have this reoccurring theme that a smaller group of players can't handle larger groups of players... It's been happening for years already. If your smaller group has issues facing off against larger numbers then that is an area to work on. Don't use the excuse of down state as a failure to win against larger numbers sometimes. Superior numbers don't always win, but you are making it seem that way, and it's just not true. Using "one (of many)" would be a more accurate way to address my comments. There are a plethora of reasons why wvw fails to grow and keep players. Low ttk is one of those issues, because many who come to play mmo's aren't looking for insta-gib gameplay. You come across as pointing to issues like it's all the players fault... Sure, there are learning curves, but the players have zero control over a neglected game mode, neglected profession development for competitive play, lack of build diversity, low amount of resources devoted to making sure competitive play is top notch, pve skill designs and pve combat mechanics shoved into wvw and spvp (that the team if finally starting to make efforts to change after 6 years with those balance splits)… and a host of problems that customers don't have control over... Again, you want easy win designs and "blow people up" gameplay, but that doesn't generate long term interest and participation for wvw. 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VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig. Posted June 10, 2018 Share Posted June 10, 2018 > @"Dawdler.8521" said: > Let me guess - your reset sized zerg has been steamrolling? > > Yeah try again a couple of days when objectives are T3 and most likely filled with so many arrowcarts that half the zerg dies before it even gets to a door and people dont even want to start commanding. > > you don't have to wait a few days. German servers and even french ones only need a few minutes to fill a structure to the brim with arrow carts. I like no down state a lot. But ACs need to be nerfed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
X T D.6458 Posted June 11, 2018 Share Posted June 11, 2018 Make it permanent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Israel.7056 Posted June 11, 2018 Author Share Posted June 11, 2018 > @"Swagger.1459" said: > You should focus on the "ton of other changes" part instead... and think about more than "feels great to just blow people up and be done with them"... You should also look at things from a broader view (health of the entire mode and the diverse amount of players in it). Spend more time asking yourself why such mechanics exist in this particular game, not just look at things from a limited view point and by your individual "feeling". So if I enjoy something tremendously but it's pretty hard on bad players I should feel sorry for them and not champion the thing that I enjoy? What utter nonsense. I do not believe in catering to the lowest common denominator player just to make their experience more comfortable. I paid my dues getting to where I am they can do it too. > You obviously don't understand why down state exists, and how it relates to the design of professions and combat. Again, you just want to "blow things up" and have a tough time with harder fought battles. You want as easy as possible wins, and that's pretty clear by your statements. Lol so the game is easier without downed state? So why are all these people complaining about losing so much? Shouldn't they just be able to get easy wins now? The obvious truth to anyone actually playing this week is that the the removal of downed state simply reduces margin for error which means that it makes the game harder and more punishing when you make mistakes because you can't get ressed if you fail a dodge or position yourself wrong and get wrecked. The removal of downed state rewards fast, aggressive and precise play and that's much harder to do consistently than it is to just tank up run in a ball and spam healing skills on a firebrand and shades on a scourge. By the way this week hasn't actually been easier for me, it's been much much harder. I have died so many more times than i usually do but I'm having way more fun than i usually do too because I like the fast paced brutal feel of combat like this even if it makes it harder for me to win fights. > You have this reoccurring theme that a smaller group of players can't handle larger groups of players... It's been happening for years already. If your smaller group has issues facing off against larger numbers then that is an area to work on. Don't use the excuse of down state as a failure to win against larger numbers sometimes. Superior numbers don't always win, but you are making it seem that way, and it's just not true. Are we all supposed to feel sorry for all the map q blobs who are going to get blown up by 20 man skill groups if this change gets made permanent? Good luck selling that. > Using "one (of many)" would be a more accurate way to address my comments. There are a plethora of reasons why wvw fails to grow and keep players. Low ttk is one of those issues, because many who come to play mmo's aren't looking for insta-gib gameplay. You can make some of the people happy all of the time and you can make all of the people happy some of the time but you can't make all of the people happy all of the time. > You come across as pointing to issues like it's all the players fault... Sure, there are learning curves, but the players have zero control over a neglected game mode, neglected profession development for competitive play, lack of build diversity, low amount of resources devoted to making sure competitive play is top notch, pve skill designs and pve combat mechanics shoved into wvw and spvp (that the team if finally starting to make efforts to change after 6 years with those balance splits)… and a host of problems that customers don't have control over... The issues people have brought up in this thread have been player error issues. Getting ganked outside of spawn? Nothing to do with no downed state. Just that guy being dumb and feeding kills. Having trouble pushing into enemies? Harder with no downed state but still entirely doable and I've been doing it on EU on a mara/zerk rev with 200 ping. Just gotta be more careful in melee now. Getting picked in your zerg? Harder without downed state because pick can more easily punish people who get out of position. Pay more attention to where you're standing and it won't happen as much. > Again, you want easy win designs and "blow people up" gameplay, but that doesn't generate long term interest and participation for wvw. I do want "blow people up" gameplay but it doesn't make the game easier for me it makes the game a lot harder because I pay for my mistakes much more dearly than I usually do. I'm pretty fast and I'm pretty good but I still make mistakes and I've been getting punished for them this week in a way that I usually don't and that's how it should be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swagger.1459 Posted June 11, 2018 Share Posted June 11, 2018 > @"Israel.7056" said: > > @"Swagger.1459" said: > > > You should focus on the "ton of other changes" part instead... and think about more than "feels great to just blow people up and be done with them"... You should also look at things from a broader view (health of the entire mode and the diverse amount of players in it). Spend more time asking yourself why such mechanics exist in this particular game, not just look at things from a limited view point and by your individual "feeling". > > So if I enjoy something tremendously but it's pretty hard on bad players I should feel sorry for them and not champion the thing that I enjoy? What utter nonsense. > > I do not believe in catering to the lowest common denominator player just to make their experience more comfortable. I paid my dues getting to where I am they can do it too. > > > You obviously don't understand why down state exists, and how it relates to the design of professions and combat. Again, you just want to "blow things up" and have a tough time with harder fought battles. You want as easy as possible wins, and that's pretty clear by your statements. > > Lol so the game is easier without downed state? So why are all these people complaining about losing so much? Shouldn't they just be able to get easy wins now? > > The obvious truth to anyone actually playing this week is that the the removal of downed state simply reduces margin for error which means that it makes the game harder and more punishing when you make mistakes because you can't get ressed if you fail a dodge or position yourself wrong and get wrecked. The removal of downed state rewards fast, aggressive and precise play and that's much harder to do consistently than it is to just tank up run in a ball and spam healing skills on a firebrand and shades on a scourge. > > By the way this week hasn't actually been easier for me, it's been much much harder. I have died so many more times than i usually do but I'm having way more fun than i usually do too because I like the fast paced brutal feel of combat like this even if it makes it harder for me to win fights. > > > You have this reoccurring theme that a smaller group of players can't handle larger groups of players... It's been happening for years already. If your smaller group has issues facing off against larger numbers then that is an area to work on. Don't use the excuse of down state as a failure to win against larger numbers sometimes. Superior numbers don't always win, but you are making it seem that way, and it's just not true. > > Are we all supposed to feel sorry for all the map q blobs who are going to get blown up by 20 man skill groups if this change gets made permanent? Good luck selling that. > > > Using "one (of many)" would be a more accurate way to address my comments. There are a plethora of reasons why wvw fails to grow and keep players. Low ttk is one of those issues, because many who come to play mmo's aren't looking for insta-gib gameplay. > > You can make some of the people happy all of the time and you can make all of the people happy some of the time but you can't make all of the people happy all of the time. > > > You come across as pointing to issues like it's all the players fault... Sure, there are learning curves, but the players have zero control over a neglected game mode, neglected profession development for competitive play, lack of build diversity, low amount of resources devoted to making sure competitive play is top notch, pve skill designs and pve combat mechanics shoved into wvw and spvp (that the team if finally starting to make efforts to change after 6 years with those balance splits)… and a host of problems that customers don't have control over... > > The issues people have brought up in this thread have been player error issues. Getting ganked outside of spawn? Nothing to do with no downed state. Just that guy being dumb and feeding kills. Having trouble pushing into enemies? Harder with no downed state but still entirely doable and I've been doing it on EU on a mara/zerk rev with 200 ping. Just gotta be more careful in melee now. Getting picked in your zerg? Harder without downed state because pick can more easily punish people who get out of position. Pay more attention to where you're standing and it won't happen as much. > > > Again, you want easy win designs and "blow people up" gameplay, but that doesn't generate long term interest and participation for wvw. > > I do want "blow people up" gameplay but it doesn't make the game easier for me it makes the game a lot harder because I pay for my mistakes much more dearly than I usually do. I'm pretty fast and I'm pretty good but I still make mistakes and I've been getting punished for them this week in a way that I usually don't and that's how it should be. > “it feels great to just blow people up and be done with them.” “makes outnumbered fights much more feasible which is always good imo.” “game gives greater priority to people who can play glassy stuff and land their damage without dying constantly and that takes skill.” You want even more “zerker meta”, easier kills and want the devs to remove an intertwined combat mechanic so it’s less challenging to take on the larger groups of people who you think are inferior players... You’re hailing “around” a 25 person group that won over a 50 person group like it’s never happened before... and attribute it to “no down state”... You’re not paying attention because that’s already been happening since launch with downstate... I think instead of trying to remove downstate, the long term adjustment should be improving your small(er) group skills and builds so you can find greater success with outnumbered fights... like other small(er) groups have been doing since the game started... You may think that only those zerglings need to improve, but if you’ve consistently lost to those same inexperienced zerglings, then what does that say about the group you’re trying to run or run with? There are 2 sides to each coin my friend, so think about that... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XxsdgxX.8109 Posted June 11, 2018 Share Posted June 11, 2018 Ok keep downstate but nerf it to the ground. Only one more chance after going down then you are dead for good, completely remove those invulnerability frames you get when going down too. There, middle ground between no downstate and the current overtuned downstate. It's way too forgiving right now, one the reasons no one takes this game seriously. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KryTiKaL.3125 Posted June 11, 2018 Share Posted June 11, 2018 @"Swagger.1459" I don't think the point is that they, or others who support keeping no downed state around, are trying to advocate for zerker meta to stick around. To be honest it never went away other things just became more viable is all. The idea is that PvP feels a lot better with the downed state gone in WvW. If they keep it around for things like PvE and sPvP then I think that would be entirely fine because those are different aspects of the game. However in the case of WvW I can speak from experience where I will be in a 1v2/1v3 or 2v2/3v3 scenario and **winning** but then in the case of a 1v2 a teammate of mine could come running up to help in the fight only to be downed **instantly** due to their lack of understanding of their class, lack of skill, and lack of an actual competent build and as such rally the possible 1 person I had already downed in the fight which would immediately either force me to disengage because I've been cleaving them or I would die because some of my skills I used to remove them as a prime obstacle would be on cooldown. That kind of ruins it for me honestly. Granted I get that is a part of the game but when I can pull off a 1v4 or a 1v5, which I have done a couple of times already since the event has started, against people who I would normally probably die against because I am forced to cleave downed enemies or waste interrupts on people ressing them that seems a hell of a lot more positive to me than keeping downed state around. Now I get it seems like its just stroking my own ego but that actually isn't it at all. If I die in a scenario like that fine because thats me either getting greedy, biting off more than I can chew or these players each individually knew what they were doing. However in those cases they didn't and they were punished for it by getting solo'd when they outnumbered me. The initial idea behind the downed state is nice and all but its implementation and how it has affected a mode like WvW hasn't really been all that great. Maybe initially it was fine, but as the game has evolved over time its really only gotten worse and worse, and maybe it was always just not a good idea in practice for WvW where it has remained beneficial for other modes and I agree it should stay in PvE and sPvP. As for traits and skills associated with the downed state not many **competent** builds really even use them, also they could be re-tooled for WvW if they make no-downed state permanent for the mode. For instance, they could allow the Warrior's Battle Standard actually res people from death only in WvW, but simply reduce the number of players it can revive to 1 or 2. The same could be done for the Function Gyro for the Scrapper and allow it to bring 1 player back from death (it would make medic Scrapper that much more viable in WvW). They could also change the Guardian's Signet of Courage to full heal nearby allies but also revive 1 or 2 players from death (probably increase the cooldown on it if they do that). Maybe even give the Revenant's Ventari Tablet the ability to bring 1 or 2 allies within a small radius back to life but it consumes the tablet and that ability (maybe make it a trait or add it to an existing trait) has an internal CD of like 180 seconds. Would they need to work on this? Of course they would, but in the end it would probably make for a better experience in WvW. Thats how GvG felt in GW1. Your team had support characters, healers, like monks and they if they got downed then someone on your team would need to use their Res Signet to get them back up so that you wouldn't lose effectiveness in your fight. The same logic could be applied here and honestly I would welcome it. Screw rallying, I'm a Warrior and I have the Vengeance skill and honestly I'd rather just die and waypoint than sit there and wait to die. To point out as well, this event is hardly favoring bunker setups in them being the only way to survive nor is it even favoring burst setups. Does the burst help? Sure, but really its no different than before if you're solo roaming and getting ganked that hard. This event has for certain lowered the margin for error that players are given in PvP. I just want to point out to some people here on this forum thinking that the low health classes are too easy to kill or are just at a severe disadvantage that you're pretty damn wrong about that. Elementalists have great sustain and mobility, especially Weaver right now. Mesmers are still pretty obnoxious to fight and kill and have plenty of survivability in their kit even between their elite specializations. Guardian also has plenty of sustain in its kit and even with a lower health pool it can survive more than well enough if the player knows what they are doing, even against burst setups. Which on that point thats what it really comes down to: individual player skill. I have run into Revenants, Heralds specifically, that are just free kills whereas others are either very difficult to kill or they can just whip my butt because they know what they are doing. Same goes for pretty much any class because what it all boils down to is the individual and honestly it sounds harsh but maybe don't blame the event or class balance (though yes balance right now is not great) but maybe look at yourself and your own level of skill and try to improve rather than look for excuses. These so called "elitists" you encounter are probably only that way because they have had to deal with, possibly for years now, many people going "ugh **metaslave**" or "meta builds are just OP, I don't **need** that to beat people" (yet they still die to everything) or they are just immediately attacked because they do probably want to help or are entirely willing to help and give advice but their experience thus far has been absolute animosity and what I like to refer to as the "snowflake syndrome" that so many players suffer from because they think learning with a meta build and then moving on from their is just "being a robot" or its just so frowned upon. It isn't. At all. If you just ask then someone will help you, maybe you'll get a couple that will take shots at you but you **can** ignore them. Trust me, I used to be super anti meta only a couple years ago. Then I learned, I improved and I spent some time fighting Plat division players and dueling others in WvW to see what they were doing that I wasn't and it helped a lot. Remove the ego and you'll see how much you'll improve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Israel.7056 Posted June 11, 2018 Author Share Posted June 11, 2018 > @"Swagger.1459" said: > “it feels great to just blow people up and be done with them.” > > “makes outnumbered fights much more feasible which is always good imo.” > > “game gives greater priority to people who can play glassy stuff and land their damage without dying constantly and that takes skill.” > > You want even more “zerker meta”, easier kills and want the devs to remove an intertwined combat mechanic so it’s less challenging to take on the larger groups of people who you think are inferior players... > > You’re hailing “around” a 25 person group that won over a 50 person group like it’s never happened before... and attribute it to “no down state”... You’re not paying attention because that’s already been happening since launch with downstate... > > I think instead of trying to remove downstate, the long term adjustment should be improving your small(er) group skills and builds so you can find greater success with outnumbered fights... like other small(er) groups have been doing since the game started... > > You may think that only those zerglings need to improve, but if you’ve consistently lost to those same inexperienced zerglings, then what does that say about the group you’re trying to run or run with? There are 2 sides to each coin my friend, so think about that... You really haven't thought this through. If the game is easier for me because of this change then it's easier for everyone, right? There's nothing special about me, nothing that I can do to other players that they cannot also do back to me. So if the zerglings are so much better than me at the game with downed state and the removal of downed state only makes the game easier for everyone then they should still beat me with their giant blob and nothing should change. Right? So what's the issue? The truth is that the removal of downed state has not made the game easier for me this week it's made it much harder but I'm having more fun than I have in a long time because it's much harder to win now and it makes me want to actually care about being good at this game again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawdler.8521 Posted June 11, 2018 Share Posted June 11, 2018 > @"XxsdgxX.8109" said: > Ok keep downstate but nerf it to the ground. But you are already on the ground in downstate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DemonSeed.3528 Posted June 11, 2018 Share Posted June 11, 2018 > @"Israel.7056" said: >because it's much harder to win now and it makes me want to actually care about being good at this game again. I thought people complained it was harder to win the other way around since people kept res'ing downs and couldn't cut down the zerg? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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