Necromancer's Depth

[Schnuschnu.9857]

> @"Robert Gee.9246" said:

> * Health Sacrifice - This would be thematic to necromancers and it's something we've experimented with in the past, unfortunately it didn't end up playing very well. The main reason it doesn't work too well is because of the prevalence of healing currently in the game. With large parties and dedicated healing specs in the game it's very difficult to have health sacrifice values that are fair in all situations. Balancing lifesteal to offset a health sacrifice cost ends up blowing out sustain as soon as any outside healing gets involved. Scourge's life force cost on skills is one way we've found to have a pseudo-health cost since it can't be influenced by outside factors, although it doesn't have the same feel as true health cost would.

 

Sacrifice skills are one big thing I totally miss on the necromancer class, but you are right in the point that they are difficult to balance if outside healing gets involved. Therefore you should tie effects to them which prevent healing (like you can't be healed while in shroud) for a limited time but not lifesteal. Or reduce healing you get and increase the damage the necromancer gets. You could get really creative with those effects: preventing healing, locking out of shroud (like the holosmith is locked out of kits with his f5), increase damage revieced, locking the necromancer in place while channeling a kind of ritual (Blood is power would we wonderful for this: reduce outside healing and loose a percentage of health every second while granting buffs like might, the longer you channel the more you buff which could be also the chance to give the necro a unique damage buff for the allies in range if he completes the channel) or even go as far bringing the necro in the downstate for an elite skill (would require team coordination the catch the necro and would allow for a powerful elite with long cooldown).

 

 

[Brujeria.7536]

> @"Robert Gee.9246" said:

 

> * Signets of Suffering - This trait update came along with some other signet updates (guardian and thief) and I agree that this one kinda missed the mark. (If we have time in a future update I'd like to revisit it.) However, I think the main problem here is that utility and weapon traits on the grandmaster tier generally feel lacking, due to how they lock you into a particular skillset rather than encouraging a more general method of playing. This would probably feel pretty good as an adept or master level trait, but as a grandmaster it lacks the punch to be build defining.

>

 

I agree so much on this. These kinda traits on a grandmaster level should offer something in addition.

 

Especially in the case of Signet because chances are you wont use two of them in the same build because all of them do something very different. The combination of Signet of the Locust and Signet of the Vampirism is nice and creates a good synergy for better sustain, at least on paper. Plague Signet is especially harmfull in shroud as we have no reliable means to clear conditions in it.

 

I think an interesting elite signet could be the glue to make all other signets and this trait work. Same for Vampiric Rituals. If a Grandmaster Trait affects an utility type, that utility type should have an elite skill at the very least. In the case of necro utilities its the other way around.

 

[DTATL.9641]

Hey Gee! Nice to see you taking your time to read some of our thoughts.

 

> @"Robert Gee.9246" said:

> Wow this got really big really fast. Unfortunately I don't think I can reply to everyone individually but here are a few thoughts on some of the stuff that's come up multiple times:

> * Health Sacrifice - This would be thematic to necromancers and it's something we've experimented with in the past, unfortunately it didn't end up playing very well. The main reason it doesn't work too well is because of the prevalence of healing currently in the game. With large parties and dedicated healing specs in the game it's very difficult to have health sacrifice values that are fair in all situations. Balancing lifesteal to offset a health sacrifice cost ends up blowing out sustain as soon as any outside healing gets involved. Scourge's life force cost on skills is one way we've found to have a pseudo-health cost since it can't be influenced by outside factors, although it doesn't have the same feel as true health cost would.

 

I think this is fair but ain't one of the main reasons to group up with other people and classes to be able to fill holes/ make up for each others weaknesses? I can understand it might be a bit hard to balance but it would feel better than how corruptions currently work. The corruptions seems to be balanced around the self-conditions being used for extra offensive effects through transfers and then your allies cleanses that off of you. This can make playing others a burden rather than a positive as it basically can make you preform worse. At least with sacrificing health you don't get worse if an ally heals you.

 

> * More Retaliation - We're usually pretty careful about limiting this particular boon. I agree that it synergizes well with the necromancer's high health, but it's very unfun to play against a character with retaliation up all the time. Since not every class has good access to boon removal we have to make sure that certain types of boons have low uptime.

 

This sounds like the pre HoT balancing philosophy which I do agree with but I find it strange when you(the balance and skill teams) don't seem to be as careful with things with larger impact like crowdcontrol especially since retaliation is not the strongest boon. I understand that you are not the only one that makes the decisions but I hope we could see this carefulness applied to already existing stuff. Toning things back a bit. Otherwise this statement seems a bit contradictory to me.

 

> * Signets of Suffering - This trait update came along with some other signet updates (guardian and thief) and I agree that this one kinda missed the mark. **(If we have time in a future update I'd like to revisit it.)** However, I think the main problem here is that utility and weapon traits on the grandmaster tier generally feel lacking, due to how they lock you into a particular skillset rather than encouraging a more general method of playing. This would probably feel pretty good as an adept or master level trait, but as a grandmaster it lacks the punch to be build defining.

>

> I hope this helps foster the discussion a little bit.

 

This makes me a bit sad to see even though I think we already pretty much knew this. I hope there will be more time in the future for revisiting skills/traits more often. Balancing and reworking skills makes the game feel fresh even if it's "old content". PvP is were this is especially noticeable. If there's little change that gamemode can get stale and new maps can't really fix that.

[Lily.1935]

> @"Robert Gee.9246" said:

> Wow this got really big really fast. Unfortunately I don't think I can reply to everyone individually but here are a few thoughts on some of the stuff that's come up multiple times:

> * Health Sacrifice - This would be thematic to necromancers and it's something we've experimented with in the past, unfortunately it didn't end up playing very well. The main reason it doesn't work too well is because of the prevalence of healing currently in the game. With large parties and dedicated healing specs in the game it's very difficult to have health sacrifice values that are fair in all situations. Balancing lifesteal to offset a health sacrifice cost ends up blowing out sustain as soon as any outside healing gets involved. Scourge's life force cost on skills is one way we've found to have a pseudo-health cost since it can't be influenced by outside factors, although it doesn't have the same feel as true health cost would.

 

I'd like to hear more about this testing you've done before. If you don't mind me picking your brain for a moment. Health Sacrifice skills were always a tough balancing act for the player in GW1. But I'm wondering if perhaps there are methods to make them work? My thought on health sacrifice would be that it would take a fixed number and not a percentage. Or if it was a percentage that its impact could be scaled with health sacrificed. Beyond that I feel that the solution to this issue could be allowing utility in shroud. But I want to hear your thoughts.

 

On the primary note that I've been pushing for though, Allowing for utility in shroud at the cost of Life force, I feel that this could have interesting design choices for the core profession. For example, at the moment Vital persistence is the best trait in its tier. There really isn't competition here at all, but that isn't because the trait is too good. So what if we replaced the other two traits with something that has to do with life force? A good example would be a pet trait of mine called Cultist's fervor. A trait that I've described as "Spend more life force on skills that us it and when you spend life force X happens." Don't know X could be but I feel that having 3 traits that offered 3 different modes of play could be quite interesting. One that's defensive, one about speed and the last about power. Just an idea to stew over.

 

Having Utility in shroud that would spend life force and traits to go along with spending life force actually wouldn't require a change to how Scourge functions either. Which would be interesting for Core and reaper as well as scourge without having to redesign anything on scourge. As I've said before, I think Scourge is amazing. The only thing that could hold it back imo is some lack of meaningful synergy with some of the core specs.

[ugrakarma.9416]

> @ZeftheWicked.3076 said:

> I disagree with Lily's opening post. Hard.

>

> **Necro is a very deep and complex profession**. Here are but few resons I see him as such:

>

> * Condition manipulation plays - conversion to boons, transfers, pulling them off allies, spreading them

> * Yin-Yang system of Life Force and Base Health -you aim to heal one while other takes a beating then reverse the roles.

> * Tons of free stats that allow for use of unconventional gear with success (such as Valkyrie, Crusader, Cavalier, Seraph - this one for Scourge)

> * Multiple good yet none dominating traitlines, letting you build various ways for same goal. Except underperforming death magic maybe.

>

> **That being said i do agree necro does have issues and his depth is being partially hampered by them:**

>

> * Extremely poor anti-cc for core necro and scourge.

> * Very lackluster party play - we bring nothing that is reliable, unique and meaningful in terms of party buffs to a raidgroup. Nor is our damage that high.

> * Horrible death shroud - Long cooldowns, too simplistic and ineffective skills, 0 synergy with anything. Just look at Reaper Shroud then back to DS. It will hurt.

> * Unfinished condi manipulation game. Condi self-inflicting and pulling them off allies feels abandoned at best. Both are weak, can be killed by allies cleansing them off you (despite you wanting to store them for your condi play), and offer no special rewards for doing so.

>

> **Fixes i propose:**

>

> * new anti cc options

> Trait to reduce hard cc durations on you. Lower fear duration on self with Master of Terror (hi thieves and your double steal). Maybe a cc transfer to minion like ranger's Shared Anguish trait? Adding a breakstun to core shroud skill (to use when shrouded and getting pummeled)

>

> * condi manipulation rewards for power and party oriented builds.

> Manipulating condies on power builds means nothing. Nor are you rewarded for pulling condies off allies to self. This needs to be fixed.

> Maybe % damage increase trait in a power line for pulling or self inflicting a condi? Another one in blood magic perhabs that gives an aoe heal when you do that? Also some condi damage reduction for few secs when pulling condies into self, to prevernt killing yourself, or the long requested resistance to use in such plays?

> Also a way to prevent our self-inflicted condies from being cleansed by allies (so we can choose to keep them and make plays with them).

>

> * Where is our retalliation btw? We're the number one facetankers in the game, yet we're missing a boon that is designed exactly for this purpose!

>

> * +150 or 225 Expertise party wide buff (much like Spotter for Ranger, or Empower Allies for Warrior).

>

> * complete rework of Death Shroud. I believe it would be good if it featured:

> Good synergy with Dhuumfire - so faster aa, and possibly a projectile finisher. Damage can be lowered to match new speed.

> Better torment application - for real shroud condi output, just look at reaper shroud and how serious of a damage it can output if build for it.

> Boon corrupt option. Necro is all about boon corrupts, core necro deserves such in his shroud as well especially vs these pesky stability warrs, engies, rangers, guardians...everything really!

> Much better Dark Path or an alternative. This is hands down worst skill in all of necromancer's kit. A pursuit skill that is so slow to cast and travels at such low speed it gets flat out outrun by our target 50% of the time if not more. If you cast it to chase them you will fail. If you cast it when they're not running - what's the point?

> Ability to blink away from a target - unlike Reaper's core necro shroud is about kiting and keeping a distance from target. So that would really help!

> Condition transfer.

>

 

I agree with everything you've suggested. Its fit the necromancer, It perfects the unique characteristics of it, and not turning it into another engineer/mesmer clone.

People complaining about lack of "depth" frighten me. I use necromancer as main in PvP, and alternate between 4 to 5 different roles depending on need. i love the condi manipulation role and the necromancer being a master of the plagues.

[Flumek.9043]

I have a blunt list of complaints. Feel free to adress or note down any of them

 

_Why does necro feel like an unwanted child?_

 

* **Necro dagger and thief dagger DONT have same animation**. Thief got speed buff when revenant was overpowered, but CONDI necro was strong at that time, so POWER necro cant have nice things. New warrior dagger uses the faster version , difference is 18x vs 15x attacks /30s

 

_Why do clunky skills exist ?_

 

* **Necro pull VS. Guard pull**. Arenanet themself mention it took a lot of work and new tech to make the new necro GREATSWORD pull. Yet it bugs out 70% of time, while guards works 100% since launch. Small sidesteppable cone while guard has 360 degree circle. SECOND, LONG RANGE PULLS. Dragonhunter always ready avaible F-skill, was so reliable fast projectile it had to be nerfed to allow dodging. Necro spectral pull is again slow and sidestepable

I dont see the extra reward for higher, sometimes even buggy, risk

 

_Counterproductive mechanics_

 

* **Healing in shroud** - regeneration boon , parasitic contagion , leeching procs

 

* **Extra requirements for same effect** - Ele dagger water#2 heals himself and allies IN AREA. Necro dagger#2 **NEEDS ENEMY HIT + LOS** to only heal himself. Warrior healing signet is 100% passive WITH GREAT ACTIVE. Necro healing signet passive has realistic **downtime and doesnt scale**. The active **CANNOT be even used up** unless 10x man raid. Mesmer GS#2 mirror blade and Necro Focus#4 are both "bouncing burst" skills. One is unblockable , homing , FLYING + LONG RANGE its own effect creates bounce target. The other has an **aftercast , blockable , "homes" on paper but not in reality , HOVERS aka pebble obstructed** , so basically doesnt work long range. TELEPORT/BLINKS , all others are instant, even pseudo stunbreakers. We get our **2nd teleport with a decent cast time** soon. UNBLOCKABLE MINDGAMES , warrior can do them with instant signet, we have **ONLY 1 SHOUT with cast time**.

 

* **Attrition class yet no sustain**. In short no healing. Necro can never stalemate hold, it cannot escape and arguably everyone CAN escape and reset from him. Yes I know the high hp and shroud helps new players not instadying. I also know with a real healer supporting - it would be unkillable. Just IMO the meta supports are already close to that

 

[mygamingid.5816]

One of the things that I feel hurts condi Necro and general Necro gameplay is Lingering Curse. With it (and some helpful fields), condi Necro is close to balanced with other classes. Without it, condi Necro falls far short. It's incredibly powerful - imagine giving Axe or any other power weapon a GM trait with +150 power and +50% damage.

 

LC puts balance teams in a bad spot. If you don't balance to it, then builds using the trait will be overpowered. If you do balance to it, then anything not using it is underpowered. Dropping LC to a Master trait - perhaps swapping with Master of Corruption - and changing to a more standard bonus structure would allow a more evenhanded balance pass.

[kKagari.6804]

> @"Robert Gee.9246" said:

> Wow this got really big really fast. Unfortunately I don't think I can reply to everyone individually but here are a few thoughts on some of the stuff that's come up multiple times:

> * Signets of Suffering - This trait update came along with some other signet updates (guardian and thief) and I agree that this one kinda missed the mark. (If we have time in a future update I'd like to revisit it.) However, I think the main problem here is that utility and weapon traits on the grandmaster tier generally feel lacking, due to how they lock you into a particular skillset rather than encouraging a more general method of playing. This would probably feel pretty good as an adept or master level trait, but as a grandmaster it lacks the punch to be build defining.

 

Yes! Great news thanks! I did think lingering curse was another really bland, passive GM trait, but I figured Signets of Suffering was a better trait to highlight given its recent change.

[Lily.1935]

> @Kaladel.1670 said:

> > @Brujeria.7536 said:

> > We need lifeforce gain on hitting enemies. There should be no dedicated skills for this, as this hurts build variety.

>

> I'm totaly supporting the rest of your post, but this part even more, it would be a good step to make the profession more enjoyable and build variety is always a good thing.

>

 

I don't support this idea at all. It makes life force too similar to Adrenaline, which if I wanted to play a warrior I'd play a warrior. No. Having it be a powerful but difficult to fuel resource is far better thematically and far deeper in terms of mechanical design than having it passively generate like that.

[Shadow Dragon Ad.2409]

One thing I'd like (for PvP purposes) is for core necro to get a bit more access to stability, since right now it's entirely contingent on Foot in the Grave and that only lasts for 3 seconds. Personally I'd increase the stability from Foot in the Grave to 4 seconds, whilst this doesn't seem like much it actually means the stability now lasts long enough for your to secure a stomp by swapping into DS, which would be so much better.

 

Also as it is DS#5 seems like a prime candidate for gaining access to stability, given you have to be in shroud to access it and it's on a significant cooldown. My suggestion for it would be 1 stack of stability for 4 seconds per enemy leashed, then 1 stack of stability for 3 seconds per enemy immobilised by the skill. You could also add on 2 stacks of stability on cast without having to tether anyone but I feel like that would be a bit overkill since necro is meant to be relatively weak to being trained and CCd.

 

I echo the suggestions below, please make leeching procs work in DS, it kinda sucks to use scavenging/vampiric and have the procs wasted because you're in shroud.

 

> @Flumek.9043 said:

> _Counterproductive mechanics_

>

> * **Healing in shroud** - regeneration boon , parasitic contagion , leeching procs

 

 

 

[Lily.1935]

> @mygamingid.5816 said:

> One of the things that I feel hurts condi Necro and general Necro gameplay is Lingering Curse. With it (and some helpful fields), condi Necro is close to balanced with other classes. Without it, condi Necro falls far short. It's incredibly powerful - imagine giving Axe or any other power weapon a GM trait with +150 power and +50% damage.

>

> LC puts balance teams in a bad spot. If you don't balance to it, then builds using the trait will be overpowered. If you do balance to it, then anything not using it is underpowered. Dropping LC to a Master trait - perhaps swapping with Master of Corruption - and changing to a more standard bonus structure would allow a more evenhanded balance pass.

 

This trait is actually quite similar to a Adept trait on Engineer called Chemical rounds. Both give a 50% boost that doesn't impact the over all condition duration allowing for 150% for those effected weapons. However There is something to note about this. Chemical rounds is less powerful for engineer than lingering curse is for necromancer, even though chemical rounds impacts 5 skills as opposed to 3. And the reason for that is the engineer's method of attack which requires them to swap weapons frequently. Losing this trait would have a lower impact on engi than lingering curse would on necromancer since condi necro's primary means of DPS is through its scepter while this isn't the case for engi.

 

I'm not actually arguing against your point though. Just thought I'd point that out. In terms of your position on this trait I'm a neutral party here. I think its fine as a grandmaster, but I wouldn't be upset if it swapped places with master of corruption.

[Lily.1935]

> @ZeftheWicked.3076 said:

> I disagree with Lily's opening post. Hard.

>

> **Necro is a very deep and complex profession**. Here are but few resons I see him as such:

>

> * Condition manipulation plays - conversion to boons, transfers, pulling them off allies, spreading them

> * Yin-Yang system of Life Force and Base Health -you aim to heal one while other takes a beating then reverse the roles.

> * Tons of free stats that allow for use of unconventional gear with success (such as Valkyrie, Crusader, Cavalier, Seraph - this one for Scourge)

 

The way the necromancer interacts with conditions is complex, but not Deep. Let me explain. What you do with conditions is transfer them. The choice is fairly black and white, which isn't a deep way to interact with them. I don't think they need to be that deep but its not deep. In some cases its you either transfer them, or die. Revenant in the HoT beta had some really deep relations with conditions. Which it was awesome to work with conditions on your own, but didn't function well in group situations where allies would make choices in removing your conditions for you rather than allowing you your own control over them. Necromancer's relationship with conditions is complex due to the mechanics of the game, as a lot of factors can take place at any given time with them, but that's complexity, not depth. You don't have multiple ways to use Deathly swarm for example. You use it to transfer conditions as the blind is extremely minor.

 

The correct way to use Shroud and by extension life force is to stay in shroud for as little time as possible. Not a complex decision as you don't have the DPS to really do much in shroud nor do you have the utility. Beyond that you're fairly predictable due to the lack of options. All reapers are going to have the same options and its heavily telegraphed. When you compare that to Scourge, scourge has so much they can do just with the shade skills that its far less predictable. You can even use those skills without the shades. Do you summon a shade and create a choke point, spending valuable time? Do you just trigger an ability and gain some barrier or fear a foe off you? Is it worth it to create that choke point? And that's just a small example. Reaper and necromancer don't get anywhere near that level of depth. A single shade skill on scourge has so much depth to it that it'll be an amazing skill tester.

 

> * Multiple good yet none dominating traitlines, letting you build various ways for same goal. Except underperforming death magic maybe.

 

Oh, this is definitely not true. Plague sending is the dominant trait in its tier in curses for PvP, Vital persistence is actually straight up required, Lingering curse is required for PvE, Dhuumfire is the dominant trait for Condi reaper for soul reaping as well as going to be for Condi scourge. Soul Marks is the dominant trait for PvP as well. There are numerous examples like these. Although I don't feel this is always a bad thing, but necromancer is riddled with dominant traits and trait lines. Soul reaping is the absolute most dominant trait line, no question.

 

[kKagari.6804]

My suggestion for Lingering Curse, in accordance with some of the new weapon trait changes, i.e. weapon traits can affect the player even if said weapon was not equipped (see Zealous Scepter) would be:

 

+Condition duration while wielding scepter, reduce cooldowns 20%. Standard stuff

Whenever bleeding you apply over the threshold has elapsed for 5 seconds, corrupt a boon on that foe.

 

Threshold: 5 stacks of bleeding.

 

Its a LINGERING CURSE now!

[grave of hearts.7830]

Constant retaliation on necro wouldnt change anything against large scale/burst macro users,also while axe had retaliation it never made a shinning momment in the play.

wvw is infested with it from guards and mesmer clones,and that didnt change anything really.

Focusing the necromancer should be always a question,not always an answer.

Make unholy martyr pulse retaliation on top of what it currently does to necro and near allies,and see how it goes.

As far the signets,the support part of them isnt bad and i enjoy using them to support others.

But it annoys me beyond belief now that i need to corrupt the boons of some boonspammer to create a window to take him down and just cant.

Tempests and guardians and naturaly resistance warriors with durability runes.

And as far health sacrifice,the problem isnt the sacrifice but what is given in return.

Blood is power in gw1 kept a healer or caster having energy.

In gw2 it lost a lot of power,and it was redesigned as a multipurpose skill that conflicts with both the class and the original concept.

To be competetive in the current setting it would need to give alacrity and quickness on top of the 10 stacks of might,so it can fill its niche as a support skill.

Right now if we put side by side necro and rev,rev gives 10 might stacks constantly plus another boon of his choice at 600 radius.

Necro gives 10 stacks of might at 240 radius around him,on a cooldown.

As far health costs,if increasing the ammount of health sacrificed doesnt prevent spam then gradually increasing costs would help prevent it.

Like 33% at first cast then 66% at 2nd cast and 99% at 3rd cast,if done within a certain time period.

Think of it like kassadin ulti from LoL.

 

 

 

 

[Geikamir.6329]

I think that if the Necromancer as a whole, and in particular the Reaper, can get more skills that let them punish opponents from trying to get away from them, it will be a great boost for the profession (especially as far as increasing the skill ceiling). More ways to apply Torment, more pulls, more cripple, and definitely **some skills that lie dormant until an opponent moves a certain distance away**.

[Tobias.8632]

I think one of the main concerns people have about this issue is that because the developers think necromancer is easier to play then every other class, it has to do less damage then every other class. This is a fact that is does less damage, backed up by data here

and this seems to be intentional since any time reaper has been capable of putting out high DPS it has been hit with the nerf bat, case in point the jagged horros build.

 

Please keep in mind that the only people who are responsible for whether necromancer is easy to play or not, are the DEVELOPERS. People who play necromancer want a competitive raid dps option, and your excuse for not giving it to them is something that you are responsible for.

 

Personally I hope you take the scourge approach and apply it to base necro and reaper. Have death shroud no longer act as a second healthbar, while in shroud you take damage as normal, and this results in you have less defense instead of more since you have no way to heal or defend yourself while in shroud. To balance this you make your shroud attacks do an incredible amount of damage, and necro becomes a class about building and toggling into this hyper mode to unleash your damage as much as you can while being very careful not to die before falling back into the mediocrity that is the rest of the class.

[Zeivu.3615]

Necros just don't translate well given the Guild Wars 2 mechanics. Energy doesn't exist any more which has completely negated the original purpose of Soul Reaping in the first game. With each death around you, you were given more energy to topple anything alive around you. Even your rotting minions counted towards it. Mesmers gain Alacrity, which lowers cooldown speeds on used skills. Honestly, a similar mechanic might work better for transferring over that feeling the original had.

[Kaladel.1670]

> @Lily.1935 said:

> > @Kaladel.1670 said:

> > > @Brujeria.7536 said:

> > > We need lifeforce gain on hitting enemies. There should be no dedicated skills for this, as this hurts build variety.

> >

> > I'm totaly supporting the rest of your post, but this part even more, it would be a good step to make the profession more enjoyable and build variety is always a good thing.

> >

>

> I don't support this idea at all. It makes life force too similar to Adrenaline, which if I wanted to play a warrior I'd play a warrior. No. Having it be a powerful but difficult to fuel resource is far better thematically and far deeper in terms of mechanical design than having it passively generate like that.

 

This fixes the problem of condi weapon not having enough LF generation, allows us to play with our favorite weapon/skills/build and frees some space in the skills descriptions.

It's probably easier to balance skills without LF generation as a factor too.

Warrior can generate adrenaline with any weapon and skill and that's a good thing. That's purer design than what we have right now. Not everything needs to be complicated.

[kKagari.6804]

> @Kaladel.1670 said:

> > @Lily.1935 said:

> > > @Kaladel.1670 said:

> > > > @Brujeria.7536 said:

> > > > We need lifeforce gain on hitting enemies. There should be no dedicated skills for this, as this hurts build variety.

> > >

> > > I'm totaly supporting the rest of your post, but this part even more, it would be a good step to make the profession more enjoyable and build variety is always a good thing.

> > >

> >

> > I don't support this idea at all. It makes life force too similar to Adrenaline, which if I wanted to play a warrior I'd play a warrior. No. Having it be a powerful but difficult to fuel resource is far better thematically and far deeper in terms of mechanical design than having it passively generate like that.

>

> This fixes the problem of condi weapon not having enough LF generation, allows us to play with our favorite weapon/skills/build and frees some space in the skills descriptions.

> It's probably easier to balance skills without LF generation as a factor too.

> Warrior can generate adrenaline with any weapon and skill and that's a good thing. That's purer design than what we have right now. Not everything needs to be complicated.

 

Yeah but, to be honest, the similarities would make one of the class just seem redundant and boring. I'm not in favor of this either.

[Lily.1935]

Going on the subtopic of Retaliation on the necromancer I think this is a > @Kaladel.1670 said:

> > @Lily.1935 said:

> > > @Kaladel.1670 said:

> > > > @Brujeria.7536 said:

> > > > We need lifeforce gain on hitting enemies. There should be no dedicated skills for this, as this hurts build variety.

> > >

> > > I'm totaly supporting the rest of your post, but this part even more, it would be a good step to make the profession more enjoyable and build variety is always a good thing.

> > >

> >

> > I don't support this idea at all. It makes life force too similar to Adrenaline, which if I wanted to play a warrior I'd play a warrior. No. Having it be a powerful but difficult to fuel resource is far better thematically and far deeper in terms of mechanical design than having it passively generate like that.

>

> This fixes the problem of condi weapon not having enough LF generation, allows us to play with our favorite weapon/skills/build and frees some space in the skills descriptions.

> It's probably easier to balance skills without LF generation as a factor too.

> Warrior can generate adrenaline with any weapon and skill and that's a good thing. That's purer design than what we have right now. Not everything needs to be complicated.

 

This is a problem with life force options on condi weapons, not a problem with the system of gaining it itself. Torch and dagger off hand should generate life force. I feel everyone weapon should have at least 1 skill that generates life force, but not all skills. Like I said, if I want to play warrior I'd play warrior. This Life force is a mechanic that could have major depth to it, and making life force that easy to obtain would remove a lot of that.

[TomFoxx.5273]

I agree necromancer doesn't have enough depth. As a reaper main, I think there's a lot more that can be done with the profession.

[Mercurias.1826]

I'll be honest and admit that I ENJOY the ease of play when it comes to Necromancers. I suspect it's because, to me, Necromancer has always been something of a sustain/tank class compared to the sickly edgelord we all knew and loved in GW1, albeit one with access to solid damage. I'm that goober who still plays a Power Reaper with Spite and Soul Reaping, flashing in and out of Shroud as my Shouts come off cooldown or I need a moment to restore health via Blighter's Boon and Reaper's Might. It's a fun, durable, tanky way to play, and yes my lord are Traveler Runes ever a requisite. I spend as much time as I can in Maguuma so I can glide and am eagerly awaiting mounts. It's basically my go-to class when I want to turn my brain off after a day adjusting insurance claims and best up bad things as a scary thing.

 

That being said, I think there is a good bit of depth and interplay in Necro traits. The thing about them is that those traits are often so tightly linked that you're capable of performing a number of things at once. My brain-turn-off build, for example, is made to stack a large amount of Might in Shroud, which gains it's normal form Health, and my normal form's Shouts and other skills are chosen to rapidly build life force, enabling both Shroud and normal form to reinforce the other. Scourge has its own thing going on, with its easy access to barriers and condition cleanses making the Master of Corruption trait a breeze. This quick and dirty build already looks pretty stout: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vRAQRArY3fnc0Al3gV3AW9Cs9iFhBb6plDSXRBgEw4SfumXDsA-jpwXABAs/QnlBAA

[Kinch.6490]

> @Lily.1935 said:

> > @"Robert Gee.9246" said:

> > Wow this got really big really fast. Unfortunately I don't think I can reply to everyone individually but here are a few thoughts on some of the stuff that's come up multiple times:

> > * Health Sacrifice - This would be thematic to necromancers and it's something we've experimented with in the past, unfortunately it didn't end up playing very well. The main reason it doesn't work too well is because of the prevalence of healing currently in the game. With large parties and dedicated healing specs in the game it's very difficult to have health sacrifice values that are fair in all situations. Balancing lifesteal to offset a health sacrifice cost ends up blowing out sustain as soon as any outside healing gets involved. Scourge's life force cost on skills is one way we've found to have a pseudo-health cost since it can't be influenced by outside factors, although it doesn't have the same feel as true health cost would.

>

> I'd like to hear more about this testing you've done before. If you don't mind me picking your brain for a moment. Health Sacrifice skills were always a tough balancing act for the player in GW1. But I'm wondering if perhaps there are methods to make them work? My thought on health sacrifice would be that it would take a fixed number and not a percentage. Or if it was a percentage that its impact could be scaled with health sacrificed. Beyond that I feel that the solution to this issue could be allowing utility in shroud. But I want to hear your thoughts.

>

> On the primary note that I've been pushing for though, Allowing for utility in shroud at the cost of Life force, I feel that this could have interesting design choices for the core profession. For example, at the moment Vital persistence is the best trait in its tier. There really isn't competition here at all, but that isn't because the trait is too good. So what if we replaced the other two traits with something that has to do with life force? A good example would be a pet trait of mine called Cultist's fervor. A trait that I've described as "Spend more life force on skills that us it and when you spend life force X happens." Don't know X could be but I feel that having 3 traits that offered 3 different modes of play could be quite interesting. One that's defensive, one about speed and the last about power. Just an idea to stew over.

>

> Having Utility in shroud that would spend life force and traits to go along with spending life force actually wouldn't require a change to how Scourge functions either. Which would be interesting for Core and reaper as well as scourge without having to redesign anything on scourge. As I've said before, I think Scourge is amazing. The only thing that could hold it back imo is some lack of meaningful synergy with some of the core specs.

 

I think it would be interesting if they allowed Spectral Skills to be used while in DS/RS, and maybe even give them different effects (similar to Glyphs with Celestial Avatar) with a life force cost. This would make Spectral Skills more desirable, and give DS/RS more depth.

Now I'm thinking about how Lich Form could work with that change. It could probably be a heavy nuke (or a beefier lich) that costs a hefty amount of life force, or even just become an AoE "aura" around the player, similar to "Reaper of Grenth".

[Lily.1935]

> @Kinch.6490 said:

> > @Lily.1935 said:

> > > @"Robert Gee.9246" said:

> > > Wow this got really big really fast. Unfortunately I don't think I can reply to everyone individually but here are a few thoughts on some of the stuff that's come up multiple times:

> > > * Health Sacrifice - This would be thematic to necromancers and it's something we've experimented with in the past, unfortunately it didn't end up playing very well. The main reason it doesn't work too well is because of the prevalence of healing currently in the game. With large parties and dedicated healing specs in the game it's very difficult to have health sacrifice values that are fair in all situations. Balancing lifesteal to offset a health sacrifice cost ends up blowing out sustain as soon as any outside healing gets involved. Scourge's life force cost on skills is one way we've found to have a pseudo-health cost since it can't be influenced by outside factors, although it doesn't have the same feel as true health cost would.

> >

> > I'd like to hear more about this testing you've done before. If you don't mind me picking your brain for a moment. Health Sacrifice skills were always a tough balancing act for the player in GW1. But I'm wondering if perhaps there are methods to make them work? My thought on health sacrifice would be that it would take a fixed number and not a percentage. Or if it was a percentage that its impact could be scaled with health sacrificed. Beyond that I feel that the solution to this issue could be allowing utility in shroud. But I want to hear your thoughts.

> >

> > On the primary note that I've been pushing for though, Allowing for utility in shroud at the cost of Life force, I feel that this could have interesting design choices for the core profession. For example, at the moment Vital persistence is the best trait in its tier. There really isn't competition here at all, but that isn't because the trait is too good. So what if we replaced the other two traits with something that has to do with life force? A good example would be a pet trait of mine called Cultist's fervor. A trait that I've described as "Spend more life force on skills that us it and when you spend life force X happens." Don't know X could be but I feel that having 3 traits that offered 3 different modes of play could be quite interesting. One that's defensive, one about speed and the last about power. Just an idea to stew over.

> >

> > Having Utility in shroud that would spend life force and traits to go along with spending life force actually wouldn't require a change to how Scourge functions either. Which would be interesting for Core and reaper as well as scourge without having to redesign anything on scourge. As I've said before, I think Scourge is amazing. The only thing that could hold it back imo is some lack of meaningful synergy with some of the core specs.

>

> I think it would be interesting if they allowed Spectral Skills to be used while in DS/RS, and maybe even give them different effects (similar to Glyphs with Celestial Avatar) with a life force cost. This would make Spectral Skills more desirable, and give DS/RS more depth.

> Now I'm thinking about how Lich Form could work with that change. It could probably be a heavy nuke (or a beefier lich) that costs a hefty amount of life force, or even just become an AoE "aura" around the player, similar to "Reaper of Grenth".

 

It could be interesting. Spectral skills having the ability to negate that life force cost through traits might be cool flavor for them. Maybe, don't know. Can't test it. But as for Lich form? Lich form is a rather clunky and very complex skill that doesn't function that well in practice. Its a shame too. I've had ideas to change it before as more of a shroud replacement skill that you could use that'd burn up your life force, but its always been a rather fringe idea. Lich form doesn't have the DPS really to be worth it when compared to just camping on greatsword or in reaper's shroud and it doesn't quite have the utility to be very useful as it stands now. If it was a Lich shroud rather than a form that had an extremely high cool down for what it did it could be interesting. Don't know how well it'd play with current necromancer and scourge, but its worth discussing at least.

[vicious.5683]

> @"Robert Gee.9246" said:

> * Health Sacrifice - This would be thematic to necromancers and it's something we've experimented with in the past, unfortunately it didn't end up playing very well. The main reason it doesn't work too well is because of the prevalence of healing currently in the game. With large parties and dedicated healing specs in the game it's very difficult to have health sacrifice values that are fair in all situations. Balancing lifesteal to offset a health sacrifice cost ends up blowing out sustain as soon as any outside healing gets involved. Scourge's life force cost on skills is one way we've found to have a pseudo-health cost since it can't be influenced by outside factors, although it doesn't have the same feel as true health cost would.

 

So, eles can have higher DPS because low defenses (hp, armor) but necromancers can't have some dps increase via HP sacrifice?

Funny how design philosophies always hinder necromancers.