Ideas to tone down offensive AoEs

[oOStaticOo.9467]

> @"Skotlex.7580" said:

> Or it could be that the issue is related to ranged damage in general. Previously, ranged attacks didn't cause that much trouble because there were a lot of reflect skills going on, the to point that rangers were unwanted in most squads.

>

> In came pof, and now we have scourges with their aoes which are immune to these defenses, and then also came soulbeast with their unblockable high damage bursts.

>

> Why wasn't revenant with their coalescence of ruin a big issue earlier, when it already had all the preconditions to be? I am guessing that a zerg with just revenants wouldn't work as well as having them be an addition to scourges, which lead to the current pirate ship meta.

>

> It's all a really big mess, since everything is sky high: high damage, high immunities, high cleanses, high healing, high reflections and high unblockables, high CC spam, high stability / stunbreak spam... which only compounds into a higher issue when players group up with every skill affecting 5 targets.

>

> Getting out of this situation would require multiple "nerfs" in many areas, and the process could take multiple balance passes, during which times the players will be highly unhappy (specially if damage is reduced first and we are back to bunker days).

>

> In a strange way, the current setup works because you beat OP offensive skills with OP defensive ones. But it doesn't actually feels balanced because people either are immortal or die like flies in fire. I believe people want to feel like there's time to react to attacks and have a chance to strike back, on the very least I think people would like to be able to "clash into the opposite zerg and do some melee havoc before going down", but that's only doable with high teleport / evade uptime classes (like daredevil), or abusing cloak.

>

> As long as an aoe can both "do high damage" and "stack with other player's aoe", the current "instant death" experience for zergs won't go away.

 

Are you kidding me? Ranged damage is still negated when it comes to zergs. Between Winds of Destiny, Reflects, Retaliation, and Revs gaining health whenever they are attacked, Ranged damage still means nothing to zergs. Ranged damage is only OP to those that roam and try to 1v1 without proper knowledge of who they are up against. Ranger damage can still be negated by LoS and invisible terrain blocking shots. Ranged damage is not the problem.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

Having 17000 hp’s and getting deleted by one succession of rapid fire at range is indeed a problem.

[Strider Pj.2193]

> @"Psycoprophet.8107" said:

> Having 17000 hp’s and getting deleted by one succession of rapid fire at range is indeed a problem.

 

Which only happens vs glass and someone who hasn’t figured out what their dodge key is.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

> @"Strider Pj.2193" said:

> > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said:

> > Having 17000 hp’s and getting deleted by one succession of rapid fire at range is indeed a problem.

>

> Which only happens vs glass and someone who hasn’t figured out what their dodge key is.

 

Wrong,some classes like thief mix in maurader gear etc just to reach 17000 and if ur in combat already dodges can be used up,u could be cc’d etc even if it has all its escapes sb with owl can stay close enough to one shot rapid fire a thief while its trying to escap. Sic em needs reduced to 25% and unblickable needs more of a drawback like reduced dps while unblockable. I play sb a lot in wvw and it’s laughable how broken sb range damage is due to modifiers. Rangers one of my fav classes but it definitely needs toning down

[Strider Pj.2193]

> @"Psycoprophet.8107" said:

> > @"Strider Pj.2193" said:

> > > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said:

> > > Having 17000 hp’s and getting deleted by one succession of rapid fire at range is indeed a problem.

> >

> > Which only happens vs glass and someone who hasn’t figured out what their dodge key is.

>

> Wrong,some classes like thief mix in maurader gear etc just to reach 17000 and if ur in combat already dodges can be used up,u could be cc’d etc even if it has all its escapes sb with owl can stay close enough to one shot rapid fire a thief while its trying to escap. Sic em needs reduced to 25% and unblickable needs more of a drawback like reduced dps while unblockable. I play sb a lot in wvw and it’s laughable how broken sb range damage is due to modifiers. Rangers one of my fav classes but it definitely needs toning down

 

Maurauder is glass.... you have no toughness...

 

Just added health doesn’t help.

 

Have you played Soulbeast?

 

Try what you are suggesting in roaming against a thief. Unless you catch them sleeping, or out of dodges, your not gonna hit that.

 

And the whole owl swoop? Yeah, after you have hit them once.

 

The way you are talking is that it’s eseentially a one off. It’s not. Hitting for that would only happen again, if your glass, out of initiative, and out of dodges.

 

And if you are, you got outplayed.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

I play soulbeast a lot, I catch thieves constantly with owl,gs and swiftness. They shadowstep and infiltrator arrow to stay ahead sure but I get close enough more often than not to delete them with rapid fire. I literally pop sic em and owp and delete most classes with rapid fire while sitting back safe in zergs and use it to easy down +1’s. While roaming I start most 1v1 with opponents at less than half health because unstoppable union and if they burn a heal,dodge etc that’s another advantage. And vitality has always granted more survivability than toughness for me so guessing things are different for u? Some classes can’t run both toughness and vit while maintains enough dps so. U can defend soulbeast to me all u want but I destroy people more often than not and a lot of times using rapid fire combined with damage modifiers etc are one of the few factors allowing me to do so fairly easily at a distance,all this while I admit though I’ve been around this game a long time I am not a very good player lol threads about aoe’s anyway, scourge is the only real aoe offender that’s worth complaining about, the pirate ship crap going on in wvw utilizing there ability to stack large areas of Condi death zones make every Zerg battle the same and not in a good way

[Cuks.8241]

I am not so familiar with pvp mechanics of ground target AOE spells in GW2. Maybe this is already a thing.

Prevent ground effects from overlapping. Basically if there are several same effects (regardless of the source) overlapping the same spot on which the target is standing the, target can only be hit by one of them and only one of them can apply conditions.

This is a common thing in games to prevent just what we are experiencing - aoe spam. Also it promotes heterogeneous groups with a variety of effects.

[Strider Pj.2193]

> @"Psycoprophet.8107" said:

> I play soulbeast a lot, I catch thieves constantly with owl,gs and swiftness. They shadowstep and infiltrator arrow to stay ahead sure but I get close enough more often than not to delete them with rapid fire. I literally pop sic em and owp and delete most classes with rapid fire while sitting back safe in zergs and use it to easy down +1’s. While roaming I start most 1v1 with opponents at less than half health because unstoppable union and if they burn a heal,dodge etc that’s another advantage. And vitality has always granted more survivability than toughness for me so guessing things are different for u? Some classes can’t run both toughness and vit while maintains enough dps so. U can defend soulbeast to me all u want but I destroy people more often than not and a lot of times using rapid fire combined with damage modifiers etc are one of the few factors allowing me to do so fairly easily at a distance,all this while I admit though I’ve been around this game a long time I am not a very good player lol threads about aoe’s anyway, scourge is the only real aoe offender that’s worth complaining about, the pirate ship kitten going on in wvw utilizing there ability to stack large areas of Condi death zones make every Zerg battle the same and not in a good way

 

Zergs are a completely different issue when it comes to sniping. You can’t see it coming, and likely have already blown cooldowns.

 

BTW, I agree that soulbeast is overpowered in Single target, however, it’s truly a much smaller issue in the big picture.

 

I still maintain that if you are getting more than 17k in a single rapid fire burst, the person is glass and asleep. Or out of cooldowns and dodges.

 

 

[Psycoprophet.8107]

> @"Cuks.8241" said:

> I am not so familiar with pvp mechanics of ground target AOE spells in GW2. Maybe this is already a thing.

> Prevent ground effects from overlapping. Basically if there are several same effects (regardless of the source) overlapping the same spot on which the target is standing the, target can only be hit by one of them and only one of them can apply conditions.

> This is a common thing in games to prevent just what we are experiencing - aoe spam. Also it promotes heterogeneous groups with a variety of effects.

 

This I somthing I brought up a while ago and feel would definitely help tone things down. multiple scourges having the ability to stack their Condi/cc death zones everywhere like they do in every large scale fight in wvw is ridiculous to say the least, all while promoting the pirate ship playstyle that very few enjoy.Before some scourge defender comes in maiming other broken things other specs can do yes there are many broken things in wvw that need addressing and this is just a thread about one of them lol.

[displayname.8315]

Wow so many people talking about running 17k hitpoints and 0 toughness... In wvw fights... hehe really... probably don't run any sort of escape or mobility either.. gotta free up skill slots for 1 more well or unblockable huh?

 

Hehe this is almost 100% complaining about a skill gap they haven't crossed yet.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

Some classes unlike soulbeast etc cant run all defensive without handicapping their dps to much due to not having enough damage increase modifiers through traits and or utility skills

[Psycoprophet.8107]

A player using broken powercrept builds saying everyone must prioritize defensive gear and handicap their dps to stand with them in fights is no better than the ones complaining

[XECOR.2814]

I'm necro main myself and i feel like staff is the most boring weapon in game(bad animations and mechanics).

 

I feel that necro staff is the biggest offender of visual mess in fights in wvw with a single necro being able to produce so many aoes that it feels like the we are fighting on the sun. I feel like staff should be reworked entirely away from aoe to mobility/utility as necro could use some mobility. In current state of the game, hp is just not enough as defense. Where is the advantage of high hp when i have to also put as much stats on vitality as ele or even more to still get 1shot.

 

This is my justification of necro staff rework which benefits necro solo survivability and reduces aoe spams in zergs. Its a win win for all but some people will still be against it because their wvw loot stick will be gone.

 

Also revs hammer damage is broken beyond belief in wvw for its kit in zergs.(blocks, evade frames, and disengage).. When think you were insta gibbed by necro you are actually eating 4k-5k aa and 10-12k cor from 1200 range from multiple revs.

[displayname.8315]

> @"Psycoprophet.8107" said:

> A player using broken powercrept builds saying everyone must prioritize defensive gear and handicap their dps to stand with them in fights is no better than the ones complaining

 

Yep just bad advice all around. Frontline should deffinatly run enough defensive to be a fight pusher. How much defence they need depends on their ability as a gamer.

 

But in wvw you have people playing heavy as a zerk or just so scared and unexperienced they don't even bother trying to get involved. When it's good players vs good players tho man it's fun.

[Israel.7056]

Necros do not need more mobility they need to learn to make friends with people who play support. This is a team based game mode not a solo farming game like bdo.

 

I think if anything the target cap should be increased to 10 on more skills.

 

All these people complaining about damage are playing the game from an extremely disorganized perspective which is to say they're not in a guild. I play with an organized guild I can tell you there's no problem with damage or build diversity for that matter.

 

Bring whatever 3/9 basic bitch pug blob you want we will run you over with a 30 man 7/9 comp any day of the week. You don't understand this game when you play it on rookie mode.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

The problem is when a game is designed around 9 classes with three specs each and due to class mechanics/skills of a few specs big blob/zergs that are in ur words organized and skilled(what a joke) consist of a few fb and bunch of scourges walking in the direction they want to go in mindlessly spaming and stacking long ranged aoe’s while a few revs etc sit on the side hammering people that cant dodge lol every Zerg fights the same,is it the most effective yes for sure but doesn’t take much organization nor skill to do so lol and every Zerg battle goes like that,pirate ship push/pull boring no skill bs.

[Israel.7056]

> @"Psycoprophet.8107" said:

> The problem is when a game is designed around 9 classes with three specs each and due to class mechanics/skills of a few specs big blob/zergs that are in ur words organized and skilled(what a joke) consist of a few fb and bunch of scourges walking in the direction they want to go in mindlessly spaming and stacking long ranged aoe’s while a few revs etc sit on the side hammering people that cant dodge lol every Zerg fights the same,is it the most effective yes for sure but doesn’t take much organization nor skill to do so lol and every Zerg battle goes like that,pirate ship push/pull boring no skill bs.

 

What if I told you the guild meta was 7/9? Would that blow your mind?

[Swagger.1459]

> @"Israel.7056" said:

> Necros do not need more mobility they need to learn to make friends with people who play support. This is a team based game mode not a solo farming game like bdo.

>

> I think if anything the target cap should be increased to 10 on more skills.

>

> All these people complaining about damage are playing the game from an extremely disorganized perspective which is to say they're not in a guild. I play with an organized guild I can tell you there's no problem with damage or build diversity for that matter.

>

> Bring whatever 3/9 basic kitten pug blob you want we will run you over with a 30 man 7/9 comp any day of the week. You don't understand this game when you play it on rookie mode.

 

Ben P...

 

“There are just too many AOEs being flung around.”

 

Your solution...

 

“I think if anything the target cap should be increased to 10 on more skills.”

 

So you want to increase potency of AoEs to address the issue of “too many AoEs being flung around”, which means more players will bring AoE builds? What do you think Ben’s response would be to that?

[Strider Pj.2193]

> @"Swagger.1459" said:

> > @"Israel.7056" said:

> > Necros do not need more mobility they need to learn to make friends with people who play support. This is a team based game mode not a solo farming game like bdo.

> >

> > I think if anything the target cap should be increased to 10 on more skills.

> >

> > All these people complaining about damage are playing the game from an extremely disorganized perspective which is to say they're not in a guild. I play with an organized guild I can tell you there's no problem with damage or build diversity for that matter.

> >

> > Bring whatever 3/9 basic kitten pug blob you want we will run you over with a 30 man 7/9 comp any day of the week. You don't understand this game when you play it on rookie mode.

>

> Ben P...

>

> “There are just too many AOEs being flung around.”

>

> Your solution...

>

> “I think if anything the target cap should be increased to 10 on more skills.”

>

>

> So you want to increase potency of AoEs to address the issue of “too many AoEs being flung around”? What do you think Ben’s response would be to that?

 

So, that is kind of disingenuous. @"Israel.7056" didnt day he wanted more AOEs. He stated a higher skill cap.

 

For all we know, he may want less skills that can AOE.

[Swagger.1459]

There is something you peeps need to consider too...

 

Lag is real, and reducing the number of targets from AoE skills inside WvW means less calculations the system needs to process... Even a marginal improvement is still an improvement.

[Acyk.9671]

> @"Swagger.1459" said:

> There is something you peeps need to consider too...

>

> Lag is real, and reducing the number of targets from AoE skills inside WvW means less calculations the system needs to process... Even a marginal improvement is still an improvement.

 

That's not a viable reason. Dropping Colored aoe make fps drop not normal ones ie WoD and Shades.

Main pb is range damage, aoe cap only becomes a problem is you can exponentially abuse it by stacking numbers. Same reasoning can be applied with boons btw

[Swagger.1459]

> @"Strider Pj.2193" said:

> > @"Swagger.1459" said:

> > > @"Israel.7056" said:

> > > Necros do not need more mobility they need to learn to make friends with people who play support. This is a team based game mode not a solo farming game like bdo.

> > >

> > > I think if anything the target cap should be increased to 10 on more skills.

> > >

> > > All these people complaining about damage are playing the game from an extremely disorganized perspective which is to say they're not in a guild. I play with an organized guild I can tell you there's no problem with damage or build diversity for that matter.

> > >

> > > Bring whatever 3/9 basic kitten pug blob you want we will run you over with a 30 man 7/9 comp any day of the week. You don't understand this game when you play it on rookie mode.

> >

> > Ben P...

> >

> > “There are just too many AOEs being flung around.”

> >

> > Your solution...

> >

> > “I think if anything the target cap should be increased to 10 on more skills.”

> >

> >

> > So you want to increase potency of AoEs to address the issue of “too many AoEs being flung around”? What do you think Ben’s response would be to that?

>

> So, that is kind of disingenuous. @"Israel.7056" didnt day he wanted more AOEs. He stated a higher skill cap.

>

> For all we know, he may want less skills that can AOE.

 

““I think if anything the target cap should be increased to 10 on more skills.”

 

That’s like saying “I think Thief needs more stealth”...

 

[Psycoprophet.8107]

> @"Israel.7056" said:

> > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said:

> > The problem is when a game is designed around 9 classes with three specs each and due to class mechanics/skills of a few specs big blob/zergs that are in ur words organized and skilled(what a joke) consist of a few fb and bunch of scourges walking in the direction they want to go in mindlessly spaming and stacking long ranged aoe’s while a few revs etc sit on the side hammering people that cant dodge lol every Zerg fights the same,is it the most effective yes for sure but doesn’t take much organization nor skill to do so lol and every Zerg battle goes like that,pirate ship push/pull boring no skill bs.

>

> What if I told you the guild meta was 7/9? Would that blow your mind?

 

No because fb/scourge are still carrying the battle far more than any two should be

[Psycoprophet.8107]

> @"Swagger.1459" said:

> > @"Strider Pj.2193" said:

> > > @"Swagger.1459" said:

> > > > @"Israel.7056" said:

> > > > Necros do not need more mobility they need to learn to make friends with people who play support. This is a team based game mode not a solo farming game like bdo.

> > > >

> > > > I think if anything the target cap should be increased to 10 on more skills.

> > > >

> > > > All these people complaining about damage are playing the game from an extremely disorganized perspective which is to say they're not in a guild. I play with an organized guild I can tell you there's no problem with damage or build diversity for that matter.

> > > >

> > > > Bring whatever 3/9 basic kitten pug blob you want we will run you over with a 30 man 7/9 comp any day of the week. You don't understand this game when you play it on rookie mode.

> > >

> > > Ben P...

> > >

> > > “There are just too many AOEs being flung around.”

> > >

> > > Your solution...

> > >

> > > “I think if anything the target cap should be increased to 10 on more skills.”

> > >

> > >

> > > So you want to increase potency of AoEs to address the issue of “too many AoEs being flung around”? What do you think Ben’s response would be to that?

> >

> > So, that is kind of disingenuous. @"Israel.7056" didnt day he wanted more AOEs. He stated a higher skill cap.

> >

> > For all we know, he may want less skills that can AOE.

>

> ““I think if anything the target cap should be increased to 10 on more skills.”

>

> That’s like saying “I think Thief needs more stealth”...

>

 

This way of thinking shouldn’t surprise you in this forum lol

[Israel.7056]

> @"Psycoprophet.8107" said:

> No because fb/scourge are still carrying the battle far more than any two should be

 

Alright so bring your fb/scourge/rev only map queue pug blob and we will rick roll you with probably half as many guards and necros as you and we will see what carries and what doesn't.