No new raid?

[Blaeys.3102]

This isn't about easy mode (a conversation that is far from dead - either here or on reddit - btw). It isn't even about what is played the most (even though that does play in to it.). And it definitely isn't about hating on raids.

 

The point is that raiding is supplemental in the game - and rightfully so. Many in the raiding community have said they want it to be niche (loudly and often). The developers have said they currently design it to be niche - and that they have purposely limited the team size for raids as part of that.

 

GW2 isn't a raiding game. If you are looking for a game that will keep you engaged in raids continually for weeks on end, this isn't - and isn't designed to be - that game.

 

Raiding is there for those who enjoy the rest of the game first and foremost - but also want to raid from time to time. It will never be a centerpiece of the game's design, nor will it ever be a major part of the GW2 experience. Given their commitment to keeping it niche and semi-exclusive, that just wouldn't make sense in any way. Making a change like that would basically change the game's core identity, something they surely know would be disastrous.

 

Again, this isn't a rant against raids, or even a plea to change raids (that discussion has its own - very active - thread). It is just a reality check for anyone expecting raids to hold the same esteem or priority that they do in some other MMOs. They never will. They are supplemental content here - meant to be enjoyed side by side (for a small percentage of the playerbase) with the rest of the game.

 

To the point of scheduling, I am sure that Anet is putting them out as fast as they can. Keep in mind that Living Story Chapter Three itself is running later than they wanted, per Mike Obrien last week. If they need to reallocate employees or resources to speed things up, it obviously will (and should) happen there instead of with raids.

[FrizzFreston.5290]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"FrizzFreston.5290" said:

> > Well the original quote read:

> >

> > > "We are planning to release raids with more regularity this season." - Jason 6 months ago

> >

> > That is not sounding like a promise to me, but I guess people would want it to be.

> Notice, that it doesn't even say "more often". Just "more regularly". Releasing raids on a regular 12-month shedule would fulfill it as well.

>

> It's just some people read much more from this than was actually said, and now they are angry that their (unfounded) expectations weren't met.

>

 

Wellll, in the same Daybreak AMA he also said:

 

> Yup! We are planning more frequent raid releases this season. I look forward to being able to share more details :) - Anet_jason

 

Also you can read into it one way or the other, its still just what they plan. It is never a guarantee. It might still be less or equally regular.

[Malediktus.9250]

> @"thrag.9740" said:

> meh, if your bored with gw2, just go play another game. Gw2 will be here when you get back. Too many people get hooked on an mmo and expect the mmo to be the only thing they play. This leads to disappointment. Go check out some other games. If you like challenging content dark souls and blood borne are great choices. Or my personal favorite challenging game, super meat boy (sequel coming soon!)

 

It is simply not working like that. If you go inactive for multiple months at a time most statics and raiding guilds will quickly (and rightfully) replace you. So when you come back from a long(ish) break your static/guild will have replaced you or disbanded entirely leaving you with having to find new people to play with.

A fractal and raid community is simply only sustainable when there is a steady flow of new content. A 15min fractal every 6month (most of the time not even a CM, just like the upcoming will not have a CM again if leaks are correct) and a 30min raid wing every 9 month make it impossible to keep a static group going. Not everyone has stamina to play the same content every week with nothing new to work towards to.

 

And even if raids are niche content that gets completed by only 10% of the players it is still great compared to the 20-40% you see for LS episodes. Raid wings are much faster to make. The maps are smaller, a lot of assets get reused etc. So in terms of dev time spent raids are probably a better investment than a stupid new map and story I stop caring about 2 days later. The new mount is also pretty meaningless to me (no offense to the devs that made it, i am sure it took a lot of effort if it has the same quality as existing mounts), since mounts have no use or miniscule use in all the content I play regulary (raids, fractals, pvp, wvw)

[FrizzFreston.5290]

> @"Malediktus.9250" said:

> > @"thrag.9740" said:

> > meh, if your bored with gw2, just go play another game. Gw2 will be here when you get back. Too many people get hooked on an mmo and expect the mmo to be the only thing they play. This leads to disappointment. Go check out some other games. If you like challenging content dark souls and blood borne are great choices. Or my personal favorite challenging game, super meat boy (sequel coming soon!)

>

> It is simply not working like that. If you go inactive for multiple months at a time most statics and raiding guilds will quickly (and rightfully) replace you. So when you come back from a long(ish) break your static/guild will have replaced you or disbanded entirely leaving you with having to find new people to play with.

> A fractal and raid community is simply only sustainable when there is a steady flow of new content. A 15min fractal every 6month (most of the time not even a CM, just like the upcoming will not have a CM again if leaks are correct) and a 30min raid wing every 9 month make it impossible to keep a static group going. Not everyone has stamina to play the same content every week with nothing new to work towards to.

>

> And even if raids are niche content that gets completed by only 10% of the players it is still great compared to the 20-40% you see for LS episodes. Raid wings are much faster to make. The maps are smaller, a lot of assets get reused etc. So in terms of dev time spent raids are probably a better investment than a stupid new map and story I stop caring about 2 days later. The new mount is also pretty meaningless to me (no offense to the devs that made it, i am sure it took a lot of effort if it has the same quality as existing mounts), since mounts have no use or miniscule use in all the content I play regulary (raids, fractals, pvp, wvw)

 

Yeah lets just assume raids are faster to make. I get they might be your preferred content but such meaningless claims dont make raids come any faster.

[GrubySzymek.1362]

> @"Malediktus.9250" said:

> > @"thrag.9740" said:

> > meh, if your bored with gw2, just go play another game. Gw2 will be here when you get back. Too many people get hooked on an mmo and expect the mmo to be the only thing they play. This leads to disappointment. Go check out some other games. If you like challenging content dark souls and blood borne are great choices. Or my personal favorite challenging game, super meat boy (sequel coming soon!)

>

> It is simply not working like that. If you go inactive for multiple months at a time most statics and raiding guilds will quickly (and rightfully) replace you. So when you come back from a long(ish) break your static/guild will have replaced you or disbanded entirely leaving you with having to find new people to play with.

> A fractal and raid community is simply only sustainable when there is a steady flow of new content. A 15min fractal every 6month (most of the time not even a CM, just like the upcoming will not have a CM again if leaks are correct) and a 30min raid wing every 9 month make it impossible to keep a static group going. Not everyone has stamina to play the same content every week with nothing new to work towards to.

>

> And even if raids are niche content that gets completed by only 10% of the players it is still great compared to the 20-40% you see for LS episodes. Raid wings are much faster to make. The maps are smaller, a lot of assets get reused etc. So in terms of dev time spent raids are probably a better investment than a stupid new map and story I stop caring about 2 days later. The new mount is also pretty meaningless to me (no offense to the devs that made it, i am sure it took a lot of effort if it has the same quality as existing mounts), since mounts have no use or miniscule use in all the content I play regulary (raids, fractals, pvp, wvw)

 

10% on efficiency which translaters into even smaller value in reality.

[thrag.9740]

> @"Malediktus.9250" said:

> > @"thrag.9740" said:

> > meh, if your bored with gw2, just go play another game. Gw2 will be here when you get back. Too many people get hooked on an mmo and expect the mmo to be the only thing they play. This leads to disappointment. Go check out some other games. If you like challenging content dark souls and blood borne are great choices. Or my personal favorite challenging game, super meat boy (sequel coming soon!)

>

> It is simply not working like that. If you go inactive for multiple months at a time most statics and raiding guilds will quickly (and rightfully) replace you. So when you come back from a long(ish) break your static/guild will have replaced you or disbanded entirely leaving you with having to find new people to play with.

> A fractal and raid community is simply only sustainable when there is a steady flow of new content. A 15min fractal every 6month (most of the time not even a CM, just like the upcoming will not have a CM again if leaks are correct) and a 30min raid wing every 9 month make it impossible to keep a static group going. Not everyone has stamina to play the same content every week with nothing new to work towards to.

>

> And even if raids are niche content that gets completed by only 10% of the players it is still great compared to the 20-40% you see for LS episodes. Raid wings are much faster to make. The maps are smaller, a lot of assets get reused etc. So in terms of dev time spent raids are probably a better investment than a stupid new map and story I stop caring about 2 days later. The new mount is also pretty meaningless to me (no offense to the devs that made it, i am sure it took a lot of effort if it has the same quality as existing mounts), since mounts have no use or miniscule use in all the content I play regulary (raids, fractals, pvp, wvw)

 

If your static disbanding leaves you with no one to play with, then you screwed up. Joining a guild shouldn't mean a group of strangers you never talk to. You should be socializing with them, adding them to your friends list, etc. Then when new content comes out, message them, get a group of friends together (your friends have friends they can invite too), and your good to go. If you don't want to socialize with people, whats the point of playing an mmo?

 

I would estimate that my static is short about 2 people per week. People have lives such as school work, family, business trips. We have a list of friends who we invite to fill those slots for us. Being a filler sounds like it would be the right thing for you. Be a filler. Use your friends list. Statics are not the only way to achieve success in raiding.

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> > @"Malediktus.9250" said:

> > > @"thrag.9740" said:

> > > meh, if your bored with gw2, just go play another game. Gw2 will be here when you get back. Too many people get hooked on an mmo and expect the mmo to be the only thing they play. This leads to disappointment. Go check out some other games. If you like challenging content dark souls and blood borne are great choices. Or my personal favorite challenging game, super meat boy (sequel coming soon!)

> >

> > It is simply not working like that. If you go inactive for multiple months at a time most statics and raiding guilds will quickly (and rightfully) replace you. So when you come back from a long(ish) break your static/guild will have replaced you or disbanded entirely leaving you with having to find new people to play with.

> > A fractal and raid community is simply only sustainable when there is a steady flow of new content. A 15min fractal every 6month (most of the time not even a CM, just like the upcoming will not have a CM again if leaks are correct) and a 30min raid wing every 9 month make it impossible to keep a static group going. Not everyone has stamina to play the same content every week with nothing new to work towards to.

> >

> > And even if raids are niche content that gets completed by only 10% of the players it is still great compared to the 20-40% you see for LS episodes. Raid wings are much faster to make. The maps are smaller, a lot of assets get reused etc. So in terms of dev time spent raids are probably a better investment than a stupid new map and story I stop caring about 2 days later. The new mount is also pretty meaningless to me (no offense to the devs that made it, i am sure it took a lot of effort if it has the same quality as existing mounts), since mounts have no use or miniscule use in all the content I play regulary (raids, fractals, pvp, wvw)

>

> 10% on efficiency which translaters into even smaller value in reality.

 

Same is true for Living World episodes. 29% finishing "A Bug in the System" isn't a very promising percentage. I'm curious what kind of percentage Episode 3 will have. Going higher is unlikely, but how high will the drop be.

[Blaeys.3102]

Again, none of these numbers matter. Look instead at how the developers - and many raiders in this subforum - define raids - clear, unambiguous statements that are not reliant on external sources. For the most part, these players and the raid developers want them to be niche content - for them to be purposefully designed for and played by a smaller percentage of the GW2 community. The same cannot be said of Living Story and open world.

 

If there is an issue with Living Story and open world not being played or completed by a significant number of players, then that needs to be addressed - both on the forums and through new developmental efforts - which will, if anything, require more resources dedicated to that part of the game (some of which might have to impact raid development schedules).

 

Alternatively, raids are meeting the proscribed goal of catering to those that want the raiding experience as an adjunct to the rest of the game. That is why the team is smaller - and it is why the release schedule is what it is. It is not meant to be a separate game that can keep a player busy for every hour they play.

 

If anything, based on the numbers people are sharing above, they might need to dedicate more resources on the Living Story side - and to explore ways to improve that experience for the GW2 community.

 

Again, this is not an attack on raids or anyone who enjoys them. It is simply, based on what the developers have stated, and what the harder-core raiders have requested (on these forums and elsewhere), what makes the most sense for the game moving forward.

 

GW2 is not - and should never be - a raiding centric game. Based on developer statements and hardcore raider feedback, that content has to be looked at as a very small part of the bigger whole - adding a little something for those looking for that more intense challenge from time to time (but not meant to be a central feature or to be viewed as a replacement for the game itself).

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"Blaeys.3102" said:

> Again, none of these numbers matter.

 

The numbers matter only when someone brings up Raid numbers and looking at their percentages in a vacuum. Everything is interlinked, can't look at those Raid numbers without looking at other numbers too. Taking a look at the post Path of Fire numbers: 71.9% started Path of Fire, 55.2% finished it. 48.5% started Daybreak, 38.5% finished it. 36% started A Bug in the System and 29% finished it. It shows a downward trend, that will probably continue with the next episode. I think sometime soon there has to be a discussion about this drop, how to stop it, and how to instead make it go upwards.

[FrizzFreston.5290]

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > @"Blaeys.3102" said:

> > Again, none of these numbers matter.

>

> The numbers matter only when someone brings up Raid numbers and looking at their percentages in a vacuum. Everything is interlinked, can't look at those Raid numbers without looking at other numbers too. Taking a look at the post Path of Fire numbers: 71.9% started Path of Fire, 55.2% finished it. 48.5% started Daybreak, 38.5% finished it. 36% started A Bug in the System and 29% finished it. It shows a downward trend, that will probably continue with the next episode. I think sometime soon there has to be a discussion about this drop, how to stop it, and how to instead make it go upwards.

 

Not to forget age of content, comparing it with LW2 LW3 and HoT and ofcourse difference in entry to the map, location in the game world, and slight content differences in each episode.

[Feanor.2358]

> @"Blaeys.3102" said:

> GW2 is not - and should never be - a raiding centric game. Based on developer statements and hardcore raider feedback, that content has to be looked at as a very small part of the bigger whole - adding a little something for those looking for that more intense challenge from time to time (but not meant to be a central feature or to be viewed as a replacement for the game itself).

 

While I agree with your initial statement, I can not agree with your conclusion. You cannot tell other people what to play. There *are* those who play primarily the high-end instanced content in the game and who view the rest of the game as something to do for a change of pace. I should know it, I'm being one of those people. And that's fine. The game tries - successfully - to accommodate both players like me, and those who choose to primarily play something else. It doesn't even matter which content gets chosen as "primary" by more people. They're all fulfilling their purpose.

[Alexsius.4136]

The thing is that everything except for fractal CM's and Raids in PvE is balanced around people that don't know how the game works nor run decent builds so once people put in the effort to learn the game the other PvE content while it might be good will feel dumb down a whole lot. I am not saying that everyone is bad or anything but Anet want's to cater to everyone including people that are bad so the PvE content has to be face roll and playable while semi-afk.

 

Because of this people want raids to be niche not because the raiders want to feel special but because they know what all the other PvE content is like and they don't want that. Also this game is obviously quite unique in it's combat system and monetization so thhat playing another game simply won't work for most raiders.

 

Lastly raids aren't very popular but anet doesn't put any effort into making them popular they only care about growing their casual audience not because the game is made as a casual game, but only because the casual audience is easier to satisfy.

[Raizel.8175]

> @"Alexsius.4136" said:

> The thing is that everything except for fractal CM's and Raids in PvE is balanced around people that don't know how the game works nor run decent builds so once people put in the effort to learn the game the other PvE content while it might be good will feel dumb down a whole lot. I am not saying that everyone is bad or anything but Anet want's to cater to everyone including people that are bad so the PvE content has to be face roll and playable while semi-afk.

>

> Because of this people want raids to be niche not because the raiders want to feel special but because they know what all the other PvE content is like and they don't want that. Also this game is obviously quite unique in it's combat system and monetization so thhat playing another game simply won't work for most raiders.

>

> Lastly raids aren't very popular but anet doesn't put any effort into making them popular they only care about growing their casual audience not because the game is made as a casual game, but only because the casual audience is easier to satisfy.

 

The problem is that GW2 primary content (story and open world) is purposefully too easy to cater to a large number of players, thus the game fails to set a minimum skill-level. That's one of the main-reasons raids are rather inaccessible (the raiding-community isn't really welcoming). That in return leads to the situation where people who'd like to try raids aren't able to access them which leads to raids being niche-content. The LFG-system is pretty trash and there's no guild-browser which could help people to easily find likeminded people, statics, etc. In summary, raids being niche is both a community- and a game-design-problem. If there was at least a guild-browser, some better balancing and more people who actually raid for fun rather than treating the game like a second job (the whole monday-clear-mentality is just bull****), I guess the game and its community would be better off. In that regard, I think it would be more reasonable if ANet were to focus on accessiblity (at least give us a guild-browser) first.

[Feanor.2358]

I beg to differ, the raiding community is actually very helpful overall. There are a lot of people dedicating a lot of time to teaching new players. You can't expect every player to happily agree to carry random newbies all the time, that's unrealistic.

[Alexsius.4136]

> @"Raizel.8175" said:

> The problem is that GW2 primary content (story and open world) is purposefully too easy to cater to a large number of players, thus the game fails to set a minimum skill-level. That's one of the main-reasons raids are rather inaccessible (the raiding-community isn't really welcoming). That in return leads to the situation where people who'd like to try raids aren't able to access them which leads to raids being niche-content. The LFG-system is pretty trash and there's no guild-browser which could help people to easily find likeminded people, statics, etc. In summary, raids being niche is both a community- and a game-design-problem. If there was at least a guild-browser, some better balancing and more people who actually raid for fun rather than treating the game like a second job (the whole monday-clear-mentality is just bull****), I guess the game and its community would be better off. In that regard, I think it would be more reasonable if ANet were to focus on accessiblity (at least give us a guild-browser) first.

 

The raid community is pretty decent however killing stuff fast and cleanly is fun to a lot of people so monday clearing is reasonable and if you want to get into to it just find a guild on the guild recruitment reddit, I mean don't get me wrong it would be very nice if that kind of stuff was in the game but if you want to raid you need to put in some effort anyway.

[Raizel.8175]

> @"Alexsius.4136" said:

> > @"Raizel.8175" said:

> > The problem is that GW2 primary content (story and open world) is purposefully too easy to cater to a large number of players, thus the game fails to set a minimum skill-level. That's one of the main-reasons raids are rather inaccessible (the raiding-community isn't really welcoming). That in return leads to the situation where people who'd like to try raids aren't able to access them which leads to raids being niche-content. The LFG-system is pretty trash and there's no guild-browser which could help people to easily find likeminded people, statics, etc. In summary, raids being niche is both a community- and a game-design-problem. If there was at least a guild-browser, some better balancing and more people who actually raid for fun rather than treating the game like a second job (the whole monday-clear-mentality is just bull****), I guess the game and its community would be better off. In that regard, I think it would be more reasonable if ANet were to focus on accessiblity (at least give us a guild-browser) first.

>

> The raid community is pretty decent however killing stuff fast and cleanly is fun to a lot of people so monday clearing is reasonable and if you want to get into to it just find a guild on the guild recruitment reddit, I mean don't get me wrong it would be very nice if that kind of stuff was in the game but if you want to raid you need to put in some effort anyway.

 

reddit is an external source and that sucks. In a healthy MMORPG, groupbuilding should primarily happen per ingame-mechanisms and only secondarily - if at all - per forum. reddit or stuff like facebook shouldn't be the norm, it should be the exception. I also think that the main-difficulty should be the encounters themselves, not finding people. There's a huge discrepancy between the difficulty of finding likeminded people/a static/etc. and the difficulty of actually completing raids. In that regard, I'd even say some fractals are harder than most raids if you do fractals with non-meta-setups (diversity in fractals is basically non-existent).

 

While I agree that killing stuff comfortably can be fun, a lot of (monday-) clear-groups (at least LFG-groups) treat the game too much as work rather than a game. The focus is more on getting stuff done rather than having fun dealing with mechanics and all that stuff that comes with raids.

 

 

[Raizel.8175]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> I beg to differ, the raiding community is actually very helpful overall. There are a lot of people dedicating a lot of time to teaching new players. You can't expect every player to happily agree to carry random newbies all the time, that's unrealistic.

 

Yes, there are very helpful people inside the community, especially veterans in training-guilds. The problem is their visibility though. These people have no decent platform to advertise themselves to interested people. Visiblity is just that important. If you aren't visible to other people, you're as good as nonexistant. In that regard, it's incomprehensible that GW2 still doesn't feature a decent guild-browser.

[GrubySzymek.1362]

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> > > @"Malediktus.9250" said:

> > > > @"thrag.9740" said:

> > > > meh, if your bored with gw2, just go play another game. Gw2 will be here when you get back. Too many people get hooked on an mmo and expect the mmo to be the only thing they play. This leads to disappointment. Go check out some other games. If you like challenging content dark souls and blood borne are great choices. Or my personal favorite challenging game, super meat boy (sequel coming soon!)

> > >

> > > It is simply not working like that. If you go inactive for multiple months at a time most statics and raiding guilds will quickly (and rightfully) replace you. So when you come back from a long(ish) break your static/guild will have replaced you or disbanded entirely leaving you with having to find new people to play with.

> > > A fractal and raid community is simply only sustainable when there is a steady flow of new content. A 15min fractal every 6month (most of the time not even a CM, just like the upcoming will not have a CM again if leaks are correct) and a 30min raid wing every 9 month make it impossible to keep a static group going. Not everyone has stamina to play the same content every week with nothing new to work towards to.

> > >

> > > And even if raids are niche content that gets completed by only 10% of the players it is still great compared to the 20-40% you see for LS episodes. Raid wings are much faster to make. The maps are smaller, a lot of assets get reused etc. So in terms of dev time spent raids are probably a better investment than a stupid new map and story I stop caring about 2 days later. The new mount is also pretty meaningless to me (no offense to the devs that made it, i am sure it took a lot of effort if it has the same quality as existing mounts), since mounts have no use or miniscule use in all the content I play regulary (raids, fractals, pvp, wvw)

> >

> > 10% on efficiency which translaters into even smaller value in reality.

>

> Same is true for Living World episodes. 29% finishing "A Bug in the System" isn't a very promising percentage. I'm curious what kind of percentage Episode 3 will have. Going higher is unlikely, but how high will the drop be.

 

Since I'm not deep into understanding efficiency stuff, is it who finished story or completed all (hidden too) achievents related to the episode?

[bigbobpataki.4796]

> @"Blaeys.3102" said:

> Again, none of these numbers matter. Look instead at how the developers - and many raiders in this subforum - define raids - clear, unambiguous statements that are not reliant on external sources. For the most part, these players and the raid developers want them to be niche content - for them to be purposefully designed for and played by a smaller percentage of the GW2 community. The same cannot be said of Living Story and open world.

>

 

I still don't necessarily fully buy this whole "raiders want raiding to be a niche content." People are putting way too much weight into what the forums and the subreddit say. People who post on the forums and the subreddit are very likely a minority of the game population. Now take that and apply it only to one specific forum/topic (raiding), and you have a minority of a minority. We give a lot of weight to the opinions of people on the forums and the subreddit because they happen to be the most vocal players in the game. There is nothing wrong with being vocal, but we can't dismiss an entire game mode as "niche" and undeserving of content simply on the opinions and habits of people who post here.

 

I instead rather look at places like training discords and guilds that run training. As of the time I'm posting this, it is the late afternoon on the east coast of the U.S., and the two most (I think) popular training discords, Raiders in Training and the Raider's Inn, have 931 and 887 people online respectively. That is close to a 1000 people getting notifications about both raids and training raids. Also take note that these are **veteran raiders** putting a lot of work into training new people to learn a difficult game mode. My guild runs training runs for people interested in raiding regularly on the weekends, and we always get new faces. There is a lot of interest, it is just that currently the game mode has bad in game tools like LFR, and is slowly dying and losing people due to a terrible release schedule.

 

I'm not saying that raiding is the most popular gamemode (it isn't), and that it should have a release schedule on par with things like living story (it shouldn't), but this all does not justify a 7-8 month release schedule. In fact, I'd say that the inattention that raiding gets is in part causing the raiding community and interest to decrease.

 

[Blaeys.3102]

> @"bigbobpataki.4796" said:

>

> I still don't necessarily fully buy this whole "raiders want raiding to be a niche content." People are putting way too much weight into what the forums and the subreddit say. People who post on the forums and the subreddit are very likely a minority of the game population. Now take that and apply it only to one specific forum/topic (raiding), and you have a minority of a minority. We give a lot of weight to the opinions of people on the forums and the subreddit because they happen to be the most vocal players in the game. There is nothing wrong with being vocal, but we can't dismiss an entire game mode as "niche" and undeserving of content simply on the opinions and habits of people who post here.

>

> I instead rather look at places like training discords and guilds that run training. As of the time I'm posting this, it is the late afternoon on the east coast of the U.S., and the two most (I think) popular training discords, Raiders in Training and the Raider's Inn, have 931 and 887 people online respectively. That is close to a 1000 people getting notifications about both raids and training raids. Also take note that these are **veteran raiders** putting a lot of work into training new people to learn a difficult game mode. My guild runs training runs for people interested in raiding regularly on the weekends, and we always get new faces. There is a lot of interest, it is just that currently the game mode has bad in game tools like LFR, and is slowly dying and losing people due to a terrible release schedule.

>

> I'm not saying that raiding is the most popular gamemode (it isn't), and that it should have a release schedule on par with things like living story (it shouldn't), but this all does not justify a 7-8 month release schedule. In fact, I'd say that the inattention that raiding gets is in part causing the raiding community and interest to decrease.

>

To be clear, I do not believe raids are unpopular or unimportant - and if they can produce them faster, then more power to them. I would not have an issue with that.

 

What I would have an issue with is, in the current state of the game, moving any additional developmental resources (new or old) to their raid team. Just last week, Mike OBrien had to justify the delay of Episode 3. It stands to reason that any additional resources would be allocated to improve the developmental process for that part of the game first and foremost.

 

With that in mind, I say again that I have no issue with raids or even with a faster development cycle - only with them using resources that could be put to use on the larger part of the game . It just stands to reason given the delays and their own admissions about how raids are developed.

 

As far as the raids=niche content, that is based partly on the very vocal raiding proponents on these forums, but also from developer comments from people like Bobby Stein or Crystal Reid, both of whom have talked multiple times about the narrowed audience for raids in their developmental efforts (there are probably others, but those are the two I remember specifically).

[Tyson.5160]

> @"Blaeys.3102" said:

> > @"bigbobpataki.4796" said:

> >

> > I still don't necessarily fully buy this whole "raiders want raiding to be a niche content." People are putting way too much weight into what the forums and the subreddit say. People who post on the forums and the subreddit are very likely a minority of the game population. Now take that and apply it only to one specific forum/topic (raiding), and you have a minority of a minority. We give a lot of weight to the opinions of people on the forums and the subreddit because they happen to be the most vocal players in the game. There is nothing wrong with being vocal, but we can't dismiss an entire game mode as "niche" and undeserving of content simply on the opinions and habits of people who post here.

> >

> > I instead rather look at places like training discords and guilds that run training. As of the time I'm posting this, it is the late afternoon on the east coast of the U.S., and the two most (I think) popular training discords, Raiders in Training and the Raider's Inn, have 931 and 887 people online respectively. That is close to a 1000 people getting notifications about both raids and training raids. Also take note that these are **veteran raiders** putting a lot of work into training new people to learn a difficult game mode. My guild runs training runs for people interested in raiding regularly on the weekends, and we always get new faces. There is a lot of interest, it is just that currently the game mode has bad in game tools like LFR, and is slowly dying and losing people due to a terrible release schedule.

> >

> > I'm not saying that raiding is the most popular gamemode (it isn't), and that it should have a release schedule on par with things like living story (it shouldn't), but this all does not justify a 7-8 month release schedule. In fact, I'd say that the inattention that raiding gets is in part causing the raiding community and interest to decrease.

> >

> To be clear, I do not believe raids are unpopular or unimportant - and if they can produce them faster, then more power to them. I would not have an issue with that.

>

> What I would have an issue with is, in the current state of the game, moving any additional developmental resources (new or old) to their raid team. Just last week, Mike OBrien had to justify the delay of Episode 3. It stands to reason that any additional resources would be allocated to improve the developmental process for that part of the game first and foremost.

>

> With that in mind, I say again that I have no issue with raids or even with a faster development cycle - only with them using resources that could be put to use on the larger part of the game . It just stands to reason given the delays and their own admissions about how raids are developed.

>

> As far as the raids=niche content, that is based partly on the very vocal raiding proponents on these forums, but also from developer comments from people like Bobby Stein or Crystal Reid, both of whom have talked multiple times about the narrowed audience for raids in their developmental efforts (there are probably others, but those are the two I remember specifically).

 

Yes, Anet themselves call this niche content as well. If they have to pull a member of the raid team to assist briefly with a LW they will do it because it’s niche content, it’s lower down on the totem pole in terms of importance.

[Rezzet.3614]

SOON™

 

shiny

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> Since I'm not deep into understanding efficiency stuff, is it who finished story or completed all (hidden too) achievents related to the episode?

 

Here, a more in-depth analysis (with Raid completion next to relevant episodes):

First number is those that finished the FIRST story instance (and FIRST Raid boss), the second number is those that finished the LAST instance (LAST Raid boss)

 

Heart of Thorns was initiated by 92% but finished by 68.5%,

Out of the Shadows 68.6% - 61% / Bastion of the Penitent: 20.5% - 12.8%

Rising Flames: 63.5% - 58.3%

A Crack in the Ice: 63.5% - 56%

The Head of the Snake: 59.9% - 51.1%

Flashpoint: 55.9% - 49.7%

One Path Ends: 52.2% - 46.5%

 

Path of Fire:

Path of Fire: 71.9% - 55.2%

Daybreak: 48.5% - 38.5% / Hall of Chains: 7.45% - 4.9%

A Bug in the System: 36% - 29%

 

You got me curious with that question, so I went and found out the percentages of those that finished the meta achievements of every episode:

Out of the Shadows 26.4%

Rising Flames: 21.5%

A Crack in the Ice: 14.2%

The Head of the Snake: 17.2%

Flashpoint: 19.8%

One Path Ends: 11.1%

Daybreak: 8.6%

A Bug in the System: 5.3%

 

Interesting results. A Crack in the Ice meta was completed too few times compared to the others, that annoying Elixir probably played a role.

Curiously enough, the Raid first boss kill rates are very close to the episode meta achievement completion rates. Out of the Shadows: 26.4%, Bastion of the Penitent: 20.5%, Daybreak: 8.6%, Hall of Chains: 7.45%. Meaning a great number of those that finished the meta achievements, also played the Raids.

[Feanor.2358]

> @"Raizel.8175" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > I beg to differ, the raiding community is actually very helpful overall. There are a lot of people dedicating a lot of time to teaching new players. You can't expect every player to happily agree to carry random newbies all the time, that's unrealistic.

>

> Yes, there are very helpful people inside the community, especially veterans in training-guilds. The problem is their visibility though. These people have no decent platform to advertise themselves to interested people. Visiblity is just that important. If you aren't visible to other people, you're as good as nonexistant. In that regard, it's incomprehensible that GW2 still doesn't feature a decent guild-browser.

 

On this I agree. But this isn't a problem of the community, it's a problem of the missing feature.

[Eponet.4829]

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > @"Rednik.3809" said:

> > Less than 10% of players ever killed anything in W5. Idk why anyone is seriously expecting more than one raid release per year, if not per expansion.

>

> It might be a bit shocking to read but 40% finished Daybreak and 29% finished A Bug in the System. I guess they shouldn't be releasing any Living World episodes anymore since the majority isn't playing it (LOL).

 

When you get to content that you directly get paid for access to (as is the case for people who joined after, or were on a break during the specific chapter's release) , things change a lot.

 

They'd probably be able to afford faster releases if they made new players pay for raids that they missed, but that would be even worse for actual participation.