what does rev need to be relevant in pvp

[Stand The Wall.6987]

for both condi and power. what are your suggestions?

[otto.5684]

Power rev:

 

Power rev, glint/shiro, has the strongest power burst in sPvP. The problem is reliability and sustainability. The sustainability is super gimmicky and you no counters to being condi nuked. I also have a radical view regarding might stacking. I think no class in the game (rev included) should be able to maintain more than 10 stacks of might solo. Side stepping this for now. My suggestions:

 

1. Enchanted Daggers will now heal you regardless if they hit or not. Base healing of Enchanted Daggers increased by 25%.

2. Jade winds cost from 50 energy to 25 energy. It now has 30 sec CD.

3. Elemental Blast, burn damage scaling from condi damage is doubled. This should increase its damage for power builds a bit (much more for condi builds).

4. Crystal Hibernation, removes one condi per pulse. This gives shield a use in sPvP (where it is currently dead). It could be considered as an alternative to staff to be able to fight condis.

5. **FIX THE DAMN BUG OF FACETS CONSUMING ENERGY AND NOT PROVIDING BOONS IN THE BEGINNING OF SPVP GAMES. **

 

Condi rev:

 

I will not talk about renegade, cuz abscent some major re-make it is pointless to discuss it. I will assume you are using Mallyx, retribution and herald (which is what is currently used in sPvP). Condi rev has long cast times and purely melee. A terrible mix. Energy costs are extremely high on all Mallyx skills. It has issues landing damage, which is mostly ground target AOE based. At least before Dec 2017 patch, the damage was fairly good. Now it is terrible. In fact, out of all condi builds, condi duration were increased on rev the most. No idea why. Anyway, condi rev is supposed to be a bruiser build. It needs to be less susepitable to interruptions and more reliable in dealing damage.

 

1. Pain Absorption cost is reduced to 10 energy, but has a 10 sec CD.

2. Banish Enchantment cost is reduced to 10 energy, but has a 5 sec CD.

3. Unyielding Anguish cast time reduced to 0.5 sec from 0.75.

4. Embrace the Darkness cast time reduced to 0.25 sec. Never understood why this skill had a 0.75 cast time to begin with.

5. Elemental Blast, burn damage scaling from condi damage is doubled. Clearly this will help condi builds damage.

6. Searing Fissure cast time reduced to 0.5 sec from 0.75.

7. Echoing Eruption torment duration is decreased from 8 secs to 6 secs. Damage stays the same (it deals damage faster).

8. Abyssal Chill torment duration is decreased from 6 secs to 4 secs. Damage stays the same (it deals damage faster).

9. Maniacal Persistence, torment duration has been adjusted from 2 stacks for 10 seconds to 4 stacks for 5 seconds. This is a reversal of the ridiculous nerf Anet did in Dec 2017.

10. Pulsating Pestilence, it does not "transfer" but copies condis. **AGAIN ANET FIX THE DAMN BUG**.

11. Planar Protection reduce CD from 20 secs to 15 secs to align with heal CD.

12. Versed in Stone and/or Steadfast Rejuvenation need to be buffed to provide reasonable sustain, since they are only used with bruiser builds. Both are passive and weak. I would rather have something active and strong. I have no suggestions though.

 

 

 

 

 

[aimz.6287]

Agreed, the shield should be moveable to with the condition pulses... MAKE CRYSTAL HIBERNATION MOVEABLEEEEEEEE

[BeepBoopBop.5403]

Less hard countering of the heal skills by anyone with a brain.

 

Increase Shiro and Glint heal's base healing to 3k. Nerf Dagger life steal accordingly.

 

Healing to full health with infuse light removes all conditions when the duration ends, or maybe even converts conditions to 2 to 3 second duration boons.

 

Make Enchanted Daggers unblockable/unreflectable, OR transfer one condition per dagger.

[Zhaid Zhem.6508]

Retribution should need some up as it works ~~good~~ almost only with renegade spe and Jalis legend.

Akward stab on dodge, and dmg reduction, (like "i'll dodge you're weak skill and get stab for your strong one"), but still poor access to stab, poor access to retaliation too.

[witcher.3197]

More sustain somehow, maybe some resistance on all builds. Even if you survive conditions on power, a long duration weakness can remove it from the fight. Retri has a trait that can mitigate that, but with retri there's no damage..

 

Honestly rev was fine then anet started reworking it "for the better" and destroyed the class. It had great damage with a few weakspots, then they buffed the damage for no reason and added even more weak spots, like.. why?

[Buran.3796]

> @"Stand The Wall.6987" said:

> for both condi and power. what are your suggestions?

 

A change in the developer team asigned to this class. Now that the creator of the Rev no longer works in the company, and knowing that He left the theroretycal design after the release of HoT, the best thing that could happen to the class is that the team asigned to Rev between HoT and nows gets a full replacement. I don't think their ideas fit in the way Revenant originally worked and the current "builds" for the class have the rare perk of being both boring and underperform.

[Rym.1469]

1. It is relevant in PvP

2. Larger initial healing from Shiro's heal would help

 

 

Condition build has few more issues:

 

* Mallyx/Glint isn't that great of a sidenoder and packs poor mobility, so it kind of competes with Scourge. While it brings some extra utility in comparison, it can't put out nearly as much pressure and doesn't have enough trash conditions to outrace condition cleanse in the meta

* Mallyx/Shiro is sort of like a poor man's mirage/condi thief. Ever since removal of Mercenary's amulet it's a paper build, having half the defenses of power rev and not having stats to withstand damage

* For whatever reason, Resistance is still a boon. Mallyx provides a solid amount with PA, but only in teamfights. Solo, you need leadership rune+Herald's bonus concentration/FoN to have any decent uptime on Resistance when basically spending majority of your energy on PA. One corrupt when you have no Energy or Annulement proc non-necro condi build often run nowadays and you're dead.

* Bonus self-healing source would be welcome for Condi Rev, especially Mallyx/Shiro.

* A second condition weaponset that's not terrible is in a dire need

* Some new Elite specialization after Herald could help

 

[Stand The Wall.6987]

reading your responses gave me two ideas:

 

pulsating pestilence - transfer 3 condis to foes on your next attack when switching legends (240 radius)

steadfast rejuvenation - cure a condi every 5 seconds while you have stab, or heal for 500 if no condi was removed (2.0 healing coefficient anyone?)

 

maybe...

staff 2 10 energy total

staff 3 cures 3 condis 5 less energy

ventari - protective solace 15 sec cd breaks stun

jalis - inspiring reinforcement get rid of initial stab 10 less energy

rework vengeful hammers so that its not useless in 1v1 (higher healing coefficients)

rite of the great dwarf - 30 energy, stab to cover cast

 

just some ideas.

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

> @"otto.5684" said:

> Power rev:

>

> Power rev, glint/shiro, has the strongest power burst in sPvP. The problem is reliability and sustainability. The sustainability is super gimmicky and you no counters to being condi nuked.

 

This statement is misleading/not true. While Power Herald does have strong burst I would definitely not say it has the strongest burst in pvp. Power Mesmer has stronger initial burst, as does Thief, and both can come from stealth. Radiant Hammer Guard burst is also a near instant 100 to 0 if you get hit by it. Power Herald's _initial burst_ is also not as strong as its _in combat burst_ due to Incensed Response not allowing the Rev to cap on 25 stacks of might until they're in combat for several seconds.

 

In terms of sustain, **Power Herald does have strong, non-gimmicky sustain.** It has access to Unrelenting Assault, Warding Rift, Surge of the Mists, Infuse Light, Riposting Shadows, extra endurance regen on upkeep skills, Impossible Odds Superspeed (granted its bugged atm), stunbreak on legend swap, Gaze of Darkness, and potentially shield block. The class when used well with all of the above is nimble and hard to hit. Additionally, It requires good positioning, just like thief, to be truly effective.

 

I do agree that it needs slightly better condition sustain. Cleansing channel being boosted to 2 condis would be a good start or as you mentioned shield getting condi cleanse would be nice. However, when played well Power Herald tears most **power** based builds apart as it can mitigate most of their damage while keeping up solid pressure, so I don't think its general sustain needs help.

 

> 2. Jade winds cost from 50 energy to 25 energy. It now has 30 sec CD.

> 1. Pain Absorption cost is reduced to 10 energy, but has a 10 sec CD.

> 2. Banish Enchantment cost is reduced to 10 energy, but has a 5 sec CD.

 

_I'm extremely wary of adding CDs, especially this large, to these skills._ I already hate Jalis due to his longish CDs on his utilities...I really don't want more CDs on both Mallyx and Shiro. One of the best things about Mallyx is that all of his utilities _don't_ have CDs and Shiro's CDs are either nonexistent (Riposting Shadows) or short (Phase Traversal). While Jade Winds _is_ a hefty energy cost, it's still very usable in the right situations both to help finish off enemies 1v1 or in a group fight. The downside of the elite is ofc that high cost, but this makes knowing when to use it (skill) more important. Pain Absorption & Banish Enchantment both have times when you want to use them multiple times in a row, even with "high" energy costs on them. With a 10s CD, Pain Absorption would be relatively ineffective at providing decent resistance uptime for both yourself and your group. You'd also lose the ability to stunbreak with it 2 to 4 times while in Mallyx, if needed. Same with Banish Enchantment; there are times when you _really_ need to rip more than just 3 boons every 5 seconds, or your first boon rip doesn't rip the right boons (i.e. stability/resistance).

 

More importantly, adding 5s+ cooldowns to these skills really eats away even further at the purpose of energy and _effectively makes their cooldowns longer than they currently are._ Ignoring the initial 50 energy a revenant has, if we swap legends on CD we effectively have 100 energy to use during each 10s period. This goes up to 125 energy per 10s if using Charged Mists (which most Condi Revs should imo). That's a fair amount of energy. 100 energy would allow for 3 Pain Absorptions or 5 Banish Enchantments during that 10s. 125 energy would allow for 4 Pain Absorptions or 6 Banish Enchantments. **Revenant is supposed to be versatile; adding cooldowns and lower energy costs on utilities doesn't make them more versatile, it only restricts them further. If Mallyx/Condi Rev needs a buff (which it does) its effects should be strengthened instead OR energy costs directly reduced without adding cooldowns.**

 

The above example is obviously a stretch, you probably won't need 3-4 Pain Absorptions or 5-6 Banish Enchantments (or even 2 Jade Winds) within 10s, _but if you do need it you can do it_ and that's the beauty of Revenant. This element of choice is the reason the class has a high skill cap and is simultaneously hard to balance. Personally, I'm okay with that....**I don't think Revenant needs to be for everyone, there are plenty of other classes that are predominantly CD based if that is the gameplay someone wants.** Revenant should be available for people that enjoy the somewhat/mostly CD free playstyle and combat flow.

 

> 7. Echoing Eruption torment duration is decreased from 8 secs to 6 secs. Damage stays the same (it deals damage faster).

> 8. Abyssal Chill torment duration is decreased from 6 secs to 4 secs. Damage stays the same (it deals damage faster).

 

So, **this isn't how condition damage works.** If you decrease the duration, you decrease the damage. Conditions all operate off of the same damage formula for each condition and are increased in damage through the following: Condition Damage of the user, Expertise/Duration of the user, and stacks. What this means is that, say you have a condi Mirage and a condi Rev next to each other and each has a skill that inflicts 1 stack of torment for 4 seconds and both of them have 1500 condition damage. **Both the condi Mirage and the condi Rev will inflict the same amount of damage to their target in this scenario since the stack size, duration, and condition damage are identical. Skills that apply conditions are not balanced the same way as power skills; the balance team does not tweak "Echoing Eruption" or "Abyssal Chill" damage directly, but through stacks and duration.** If the damage on any traits/skills is not high enough, we should be asking for increased stacks as that is the **only** way to increase the immediate **burst** damage of a condi skill.

 

> 9. Maniacal Persistence, torment duration has been adjusted from 2 stacks for 10 seconds to 4 stacks for 5 seconds. This is a reversal of the ridiculous nerf Anet did in Dec 2017.

 

While I wasn't happy about any of the condi changes for revenant in that patch, it unfortunately is the direction they want to head in. They stated they want condi to be less bursty, so they increased base durations and reduced the amount of stacks effectively making the damage the same, but over a longer period. I think for Maniacal Persistence it could easily be increased to 3 stacks for 10 seconds (or maybe even 4) and that would be fine, even with their current design goals.

[otto.5684]

> @"LucianTheAngelic.7054" said:

> > @"otto.5684" said:

> > Power rev:

> >

> > Power rev, glint/shiro, has the strongest power burst in sPvP. The problem is reliability and sustainability. The sustainability is super gimmicky and you no counters to being condi nuked.

>

> This statement is misleading/not true. While Power Herald does have strong burst I would definitely not say it has the strongest burst in pvp. Power Mesmer has stronger initial burst, as does Thief, and both can come from stealth. Radiant Hammer Guard burst is also a near instant 100 to 0 if you get hit by it. Power Herald's _initial burst_ is also not as strong as its _in combat burst_ due to Incensed Response not allowing the Rev to cap on 25 stacks of might until they're in combat for several seconds.

>

> In terms of sustain, **Power Herald does have strong, non-gimmicky sustain.** It has access to Unrelenting Assault, Warding Rift, Surge of the Mists, Infuse Light, Riposting Shadows, extra endurance regen on upkeep skills, Impossible Odds Superspeed (granted its bugged atm), stunbreak on legend swap, Gaze of Darkness, and potentially shield block. The class when used well with all of the above is nimble and hard to hit. Additionally, It requires good positioning, just like thief, to be truly effective.

>

> I do agree that it needs slightly better condition sustain. Cleansing channel being boosted to 2 condis would be a good start or as you mentioned shield getting condi cleanse would be nice. However, when played well Power Herald tears most **power** based builds apart as it can mitigate most of their damage while keeping up solid pressure, so I don't think its general sustain needs help.

>

> > 2. Jade winds cost from 50 energy to 25 energy. It now has 30 sec CD.

> > 1. Pain Absorption cost is reduced to 10 energy, but has a 10 sec CD.

> > 2. Banish Enchantment cost is reduced to 10 energy, but has a 5 sec CD.

>

> _I'm extremely wary of adding CDs, especially this large, to these skills._ I already hate Jalis due to his longish CDs on his utilities...I really don't want more CDs on both Mallyx and Shiro. One of the best things about Mallyx is that all of his utilities _don't_ have CDs and Shiro's CDs are either nonexistent (Riposting Shadows) or short (Phase Traversal). While Jade Winds _is_ a hefty energy cost, it's still very usable in the right situations both to help finish off enemies 1v1 or in a group fight. The downside of the elite is ofc that high cost, but this makes knowing when to use it (skill) more important. Pain Absorption & Banish Enchantment both have times when you want to use them multiple times in a row, even with "high" energy costs on them. With a 10s CD, Pain Absorption would be relatively ineffective at providing decent resistance uptime for both yourself and your group. You'd also lose the ability to stunbreak with it 2 to 4 times while in Mallyx, if needed. Same with Banish Enchantment; there are times when you _really_ need to rip more than just 3 boons every 5 seconds, or your first boon rip doesn't rip the right boons (i.e. stability/resistance).

>

> More importantly, adding 5s+ cooldowns to these skills really eats away even further at the purpose of energy and _effectively makes their cooldowns longer than they currently are._ Ignoring the initial 50 energy a revenant has, if we swap legends on CD we effectively have 100 energy to use during each 10s period. This goes up to 125 energy per 10s if using Charged Mists (which most Condi Revs should imo). That's a fair amount of energy. 100 energy would allow for 3 Pain Absorptions or 5 Banish Enchantments during that 10s. 125 energy would allow for 4 Pain Absorptions or 6 Banish Enchantments. **Revenant is supposed to be versatile; adding cooldowns and lower energy costs on utilities doesn't make them more versatile, it only restricts them further. If Mallyx/Condi Rev needs a buff (which it does) its effects should be strengthened instead OR energy costs directly reduced without adding cooldowns.**

>

> The above example is obviously a stretch, you probably won't need 3-4 Pain Absorptions or 5-6 Banish Enchantments (or even 2 Jade Winds) within 10s, _but if you do need it you can do it_ and that's the beauty of Revenant. This element of choice is the reason the class has a high skill cap and is simultaneously hard to balance. Personally, I'm okay with that....**I don't think Revenant needs to be for everyone, there are plenty of other classes that are predominantly CD based if that is the gameplay someone wants.** Revenant should be available for people that enjoy the somewhat/mostly CD free playstyle and combat flow.

>

> > 7. Echoing Eruption torment duration is decreased from 8 secs to 6 secs. Damage stays the same (it deals damage faster).

> > 8. Abyssal Chill torment duration is decreased from 6 secs to 4 secs. Damage stays the same (it deals damage faster).

>

> So, **this isn't how condition damage works.** If you decrease the duration, you decrease the damage. Conditions all operate off of the same damage formula for each condition and are increased in damage through the following: Condition Damage of the user, Expertise/Duration of the user, and stacks. What this means is that, say you have a condi Mirage and a condi Rev next to each other and each has a skill that inflicts 1 stack of torment for 4 seconds and both of them have 1500 condition damage. **Both the condi Mirage and the condi Rev will inflict the same amount of damage to their target in this scenario since the stack size, duration, and condition damage are identical. Skills that apply conditions are not balanced the same way as power skills; the balance team does not tweak "Echoing Eruption" or "Abyssal Chill" damage directly, but through stacks and duration.** If the damage on any traits/skills is not high enough, we should be asking for increased stacks as that is the **only** way to increase the immediate **burst** damage of a condi skill.

>

> > 9. Maniacal Persistence, torment duration has been adjusted from 2 stacks for 10 seconds to 4 stacks for 5 seconds. This is a reversal of the ridiculous nerf Anet did in Dec 2017.

>

> While I wasn't happy about any of the condi changes for revenant in that patch, it unfortunately is the direction they want to head in. They stated they want condi to be less bursty, so they increased base durations and reduced the amount of stacks effectively making the damage the same, but over a longer period. I think for Maniacal Persistence it could easily be increased to 3 stacks for 10 seconds (or maybe even 4) and that would be fine, even with their current design goals.

 

For power rev, we could debate regarding shatter Mesmer burst. Mesmer is much better. Rev just has higher potential. I main guardian. Core guardian with hammer as burst is laughable. Landing hammer 2 with focus is a Hail Mary. Needs a bit over 30 secs to repeat. And hammer is very weak outside of that. Thief surely does less burst bit Is far superior in reliability that rev.

 

As for condi build, while spamming banish enchantment is a thing. It should not be. Also, at its 20 energy cost, it leaves you without energy and it barely deals any damage. It would be far more useful with less energy cost and a short CD. My issue with pain absorption is cost. At 30 energy cost, most of the time you will have no energy to use it, unless you are sitting around doing nothing. Gatting it with CD instead of energy makes it available when you really need it.

 

As for game direction. The Dec 2017 update with condis was absolutely the worst decision that anet ever made, balance wise. Other than mirage and scourge no other condi build was sPvP viable (and still none is). And for some reason condi rev was the hardest hit in terms of increasing condi duration. If there is any shot for condi rev to be competitive in sPvP, it has to deal damage much faster.

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

> @"otto.5684" said:

> For power rev, we could debate regarding shatter Mesmer burst. Mesmer is much better. Rev just has higher potential. I main guardian. Core guardian with hammer as burst is laughable. Landing hammer 2 with focus is a Hail Mary. Needs a bit over 30 secs to repeat. And hammer is very weak outside of that. Thief surely does less burst bit Is far superior in reliability that rev.

 

Sure, Revenant (as noted by me previously as well) has high sustain damage and high burst, but my point was that it really doesn't have the highest burst damage in spvp. When you say burst, I assume we're generally talking about opening combo initial burst, which is not as high in comparison to the other specs mentioned. You can say "core guard with hammer" is laughable, but the burst from it IS higher, regardless of the 30s cooldown for the "Hail Mary." If you start factoring in other game mechanics as well such as telegraphs, CDs, cast times, etc. and apply those to Rev it becomes apparent that Rev's initial burst damage is hard to land on competent opponents due to the telegraphs, and it also isn't instant in the same way that Guardian is. A guardian can hit their full combo on an unexpecting opponent, whereas a rev can port in, but is still reliant on nearly another full second of cast time after the initial phase traversal to finish its burst, giving the opponent time to dodge/react. Additionally, as you mentioned, mesmer's power burst is better debatably, but primarily because the counterplay is less existent as the mesmer is able to lock their target in place and execute their 1ish second 100 to 0 combo. I do agree with you however that Revenant is able to keep sustained burst damage up throughout a fight better than many other classes.

 

> As for condi build, while spamming banish enchantment is a thing. It should not be. Also, at its 20 energy cost, it leaves you without energy and it barely deals any damage. It would be far more useful with less energy cost and a short CD. My issue with pain absorption is cost. At 30 energy cost, most of the time you will have no energy to use it, unless you are sitting around doing nothing. Gatting it with CD instead of energy makes it available when you really need it.

 

You say being able to spam banish enchantment should not be a thing. **Why?** Revenant, as I mentioned, is about versatility. That means you can play it how you see fit to play it in the moment. If you want to spend all your energy on damage, you can spend it all on damage. If you want to spend all your energy on defense, you can spend it all on defense, etc. If you spend all your energy on Unyielding Anguish and wonder why you're getting wrecked by condis/CCs, you're going to have a bad time. Cooldowns on Mallyx Utilities wouldn't "make them available when you need them," but limit their usage overall and make them worse. Power Revenant also has the same sort of choice between defense and offense with Phase Traversal/Impossible Odds + Riposting Shadows. If you burn Phase Traversal and then Impossible Odds or several weapon skills, don't be surprised if you're left defenseless for a second or two. I don't think anyone would suggest giving Riposting Shadows a 10s cooldown, as it would break the flow of Power Rev. Sometimes it's important to burn 60 energy on a double evade/stunbreak backward and the same goes for Pain Absorption. Knowing when to save your defenses or burst your offenses is skillful play. Also it should be noted that _Mace/Axe Mallyx has slightly lower energy requirements when compared to Sword/Sword Shiro AND it synergizes with Charged Mists better than Power Rev since you don't need Roiling Mists, giving higher potential base energy output per legend swap._

 

"Most of the time you'll have no energy to use it, unless you're standing around doing nothing." I think this mentality is a problem for Rev; I've seen it across a number of posts from a lot of people. There should be a small amount of Rev's combat flow where you're actively kiting to build energy, maintain control of your position in the fight, and look for your opportunity to make use of Rev's good burst. This goes for Condi Rev as well. Rev is a lot like thief in the sense that you don't have to be constantly in their face (like Warrior) to be gaining ground in a fight. It's okay to go in and out and I think a lot of revenants don't realize that.

 

Whenever I've played condi rev, the issue is less that I don't have access to Pain Absorption, but more that the resistance is easily stripped and then you're left with all the condis still on you. That of course goes back to revenant's main issue of lack of reliable condi clear. Condi rev also lacks meaningful ways to keep people inside its AoEs (which is where much of its damage is), outside of chill and 1 pull CC. Condi Rev also has no evades the same way Power Rev has in its Mace/Axe Mallyx Kit (compared to s/s shiro) and despite being clearly built for team fights it lacks both the damage output and sustain necessary to be a great teamfighter. It's also not an amazing duelist. Condi Rev should be given slightly more evade/sustain and a bit more damage. Echoing Eruption or Unyielding Anguish being given an evade would be fantastic. Pain Absorption needs to give the Revenant something else on top of what it currently does. Bare minimum It should probably be given the Darkrazor's Daring treatment and be given a 1s stack of stability to "protect the cast time." Alternatively, a 1 second Invuln could be really awesome for it as well and wouldn't be game breaking.

 

> As for game direction. The Dec 2017 update with condis was absolutely the worst decision that anet ever made, balance wise. Other than mirage and scourge no other condi build was sPvP viable (and still none is). And for some reason condi rev was the hardest hit in terms of increasing condi duration. If there is any shot for condi rev to be competitive in sPvP, it has to deal damage much faster.

 

Yep! I totally agree with you on this. I think the overall design decision to move to longer duration was good, but I think Condi Rev needs an extra stack or two in a few places to make its damage output stronger and more effective.

[Rym.1469]

Banish Enchantment spam is not a thing for the precise reason you've pointed out otto. It's energy cost.

 

You can opt to spam a skill, but it will likely leave you energy starved and unable to use other skills. That's the entire point of the Energy system - you increase or reduce the skill usage - "cooldown" - to your liking, rather than having a preset cooldown do it for you.

 

 

[narcx.3570]

> @"Stand The Wall.6987" said:

> for both condi and power. what are your suggestions?

 

Power rev's already a pretty balanced class... It might not be for everyone, but that's a personal issue. Objectively, it has the tools to get the job done and is only really hard countered by Mirages (but so is every class for the most part) and S/D Thiefs... The problem is, you have to REALLY know what you're dong to play Rev successfully, which makes it tough to broad-stroke balance. If they buff power rev to help accommodate a lot of the lower tier players, suddenly it becomes SUPER broken in the right hands.

 

As for Condi Rev... It will remain in a pretty rough spot as long as Sandshades are so dominating in point control. The strength of PvP Mallyx 100% rests in point control, and Scourges just do this better--not only do they do it better, but their boon corruptions and cleanses directly hard counter Mallyx.... And to make it even worse, Scourge is a relatively easy class to effectively play, so they litter the landscape. Dragonhunters are in a super similar boat, because they are also a spec built around point control and Scourge just dominated them out of the meta as well. If Mallyx revs are going to be able to compete with Scourges realistically, they would need some sort of trait that makes any resistance applied by them be incorruptible, then they would at least be able to stay on the point dishing out their own pressure to compete with the shade pressure... I mean the scourge would still be safe at range, but at least his team wouldn't get the point uncontested anymore. But the problem with trying to balance Condi Rev v Scourge in this way is that it leaves Rev really op vs other condi builds. At least it's not as bad as it was... Every Shade nerf makes it a little better for condi rev, but Scourge is only one part of the dilemma... You also have to deal with things like a single support FB being able to easily negate 100% of your damage potential, or a Spellbreaker who can just ride you to death with his own permaresistance--but those are problems that every condi build faces.

[narcx.3570]

> @"LucianTheAngelic.7054" said:

>(clip)

>(clip)

>(clip)

> Whenever I've played condi rev, the issue is less that I don't have access to Pain Absorption, but more that the resistance is easily stripped and then you're left with all the condis still on you. That of course goes back to revenant's main issue of lack of reliable condi clear. Condi rev also lacks meaningful ways to keep people inside its AoEs (which is where much of its damage is), outside of chill and 1 pull CC. Condi Rev also has no evades the same way Power Rev has in its Mace/Axe Mallyx Kit (compared to s/s shiro) and despite being clearly built for team fights it lacks both the damage output and sustain necessary to be a great teamfighter. It's also not an amazing duelist. Condi Rev should be given slightly more evade/sustain and a bit more damage. Echoing Eruption or Unyielding Anguish being given an evade would be fantastic. Pain Absorption needs to give the Revenant something else on top of what it currently does. Bare minimum It should probably be given the Darkrazor's Daring treatment and be given a 1s stack of stability to "protect the cast time." Alternatively, a 1 second Invuln could be really awesome for it as well and wouldn't be game breaking.

>

 

So many really smart things said it this post... Love it, but I clipped most of them out cuz--wall of text...! (And I just wanted to comment on the Mallyx part.)

 

I secretly suspect, although I haven't tried it personally because I don't think Condi Rev is quite there yet, but I suspect that oh sword, while it's supposed to be the power alternative to axe, is probably really good for Mallyx Revs. Deathstrike is just so, so, so much better than Axe 4 as a gap closer, and while the 2nd hit is usually evaded, it still makes them waste an evade AND you'll still get the Abyssal Chill synergy from the first hit. And then Shackling Wave would still do respectable damage if you're using almost any condi set up other than a blah powerless one like Deadshot and the lengthy immob would insanely help with the 'sticking to people' problem.

 

Unyielding Anguish should definitely get an i-frame attached to it... Not just for the escapes and survivability, but just to help with how it stupidly triggers everything in its path and how much of a liability it is to use since any interrupt on it literally turns it into a self-knockdown... No other skill in the game that I can think of off the top of my head actually turns into a complete hard-cc if it gets interrupted, which is just ridiculous.

 

As for Pain Absorption, they should just get rid of the cast time on it... It wouldn't even be that OP to be able to insta spam resistance in team fights since A) everyone is packing boon removal/corruption and B ) it costs 30 energy. It's silly that against daze spammers like Mirage, D/P thief, or to a certain extent, Warriors, that you have to stow weapon while using your stunbreak to avoid getting all your casts immediately re-locked out by someone who's basically face rolling cc. No other class has to deal with that crap either. Ideally they should also make PA function in a way where it can't just be automatically countered by boon corruption/removal... I'm not sure how to do this without being too OP, but it's mostly what makes Mallyx revs so unviable. They are meant to be an anti-condition, condition damage class, but all condition damage classes in the game now come with built in boon removal (and if they don't, their allies have it or they stack sigils.) Maybe rather than having increased resistance duration for every condi you pull from your allies, have it stack intensity--similar to how getting multiple stacks of stability requires multiple cc's to get through. Or maybe do something outrageous like have it detonate and apply an AoE 5-10 stacks of Burning and Torment around the revenant if it's forcibly stripped or corrupted. I dunno, something though.

 

 

[ZeftheWicked.3076]

I play condi herald nearly all the time, so my 3 cents on making condi viable:

 

**Staff** - give it some condi options. It's great for healers, great for tanks, and has respectable power damage coefficients. Long story short - it looks like a strong, build agnostic support weapon. Unless you're condi. Then you get nothing. It would be great to be able to pump out some condi damage with staff, so the "supporting your build type while providing heals/blocks/cc" is real for condi users as well.

 

**Unyielding Anguish** - energy cost is too high. This isn't just a aoe condi field, it's also our mobility skill for chasing or making a retreat. Shaving off some duration in exchange for proportional energy cost reduction would be great. Would also help with wasting field's potential as ppl get out of it. Shorter duration but lesser cost = better ability to chase and land greater % of the field's damage.

Let's say field lasts 3 seconds instead of 4 and eats up 20 energy.

 

**Banish enchantment** - love the skill, it's problem is - it is **alone**. 20 energy means you can't spam it, and it's damage is not gonna pull the dps train alone. But other skills just cost too much and it's hard enough to wave in one banish enchatment just to strip boons.

 

Put it on a recharge system like guardian's mantras. Cheap to use, can be stacked, but is recharge dependant. Time the recharge so that it's not too overkill but adequate to the lower energy cost and forseeable boon ripping power that revenant should have. Add a recharge reduction reward depending on amount of boons you strip with it.

 

**Demonic defiance** - If you want stability outside jalis legend there is a trait for that (wonky, but it exists). Meanwhile if it's resistance you need this trait leaves you high and dry unless you're channeling Mallyx. I say add "On heal skill use" in addition to "on legendary demon stance skill use" to it. So any legend can get at least a bit of resistance with it's healing skill if you trait for it.

 

**Planar protection** - agreed with earlier suggestion to make it 15s cd and not 20. To compensate, duration can be reduced to 6s (PvE), 3s (pvp modes).