Dont touch anything before mirage is solved

[Gwaihir.1745]

In the current meta game mirage dominates. That's just the way it is. This is a warning for the next balance patch. Touching any other class in need of tuning eg spellbreaker scourge or whatever the forums want to complain about without solving mirage being utterly broken will have severe implications for spvp.

 

Right now there are 3 mirage builds with 90+% ratings on metabattle. Without spellreakers or other slightly overtuned specs to stand up to mirages they will just run rampant. So let this be the warning to not issue nerfs to other classes until the main issue is solved with mirage.

[DaShi.1368]

While I don't agree with basing balance on metabattle, I have to agree with this sentiment.

[Apolo.5942]

Oh, i wouldn't worry, i doubt you will see any real changes before the next expansion.

 

The problem with The Mesmer and Necro are linked to their class design more so than balancing numbers, a % here a % there, wont really make any difference.

[bravan.3876]

It is funny that ppl still think metabattle builds rated by some NA randoms are a good indicator for any balance issues xD

[Sampson.2403]

Should we be referring to a different site than metabattle for builds?

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

> @"Sampson.2403" said:

> Should we be referring to a different site than metabattle for builds?

 

Actually.. it might be time for a good stickied thread in this forum where the discussion of "what's the current meta" can develop. Metabattle seems to be very slow in its adaption lately.

[maxwelgm.4315]

Using metabattle is a frail argument, but the point stands that Mirage is currently (and Mesmer never left such position) one of, if not **the** top build at the moment (arguably, I'd say the top 2 builds at least are both variations of Mirage even, it's on a tier of its own when you account for players that know their classes).

 

I made a long kitten post in a thread that was deleted about devs having no self-evaluation in the topic of how mesmer is broken, talking about how they tried to keep the feel of interruption/deception/offense it had in GW1 but failed miserably. I'm not repeating this here but, in short, mesmer had too much of its kit from GW1 adapted and turned into passive traits, while simultaneously being granted **the ability to cast skills during its invulnerability period**, **create what is literal visual clutter to confound enemies**, and **maintain extreme mobility and evasion uptime while their damage ticks suffer nothing from this**. These are all excellent characteristics in the skill activation-based game that GW1 was (you had 8 skills to choose from a huuuge plethora, nearly no passive other than signets, and all your defenses/offenses/interrupts came from these other than a measly auto-attack), but it is simply _annoying_ to play against in an action game based on dodging and targetting such as GW2.

 

Having a character like a Thief disappear is mechanically sound because only a single thief will reappear and they have to sacrifice a lot in order to pull conditions to you. As a mesmer? lolwut just be gone for the time you need to recover HP then get back for another burst-while-invulnerable phase. Portal to force your enemies to 1vs2 far or simply give up the point while their mid is wrecked by larger numbers. Enjoy seeing people blast their whole kit on clones, or watch them wait for the actual you to appear full of vigor to evade, distortion and sword 2, because at that time they will have tons of conditions if they didn't deal with your clones after all. If the core mechanics of your class involve breaking the very system that the game is based on (breaks targetting, creates visual clutter, spams conditions through clones you were supposed to not focus on while targetting the actual mes), then there is nothing the devs can ever do to balance it.

[aDemoNnDisguisE.8576]

Agree with the OP.

This mode of the game is unplayable while Mesmer has so many superpowers... unless you want to play as Mesmer. :/

 

ANET NERF THE FUCK OUT OF MESMER, WHAT THE FUCK ARE YOU WAITING FOR?!

[Gwaihir.1745]

> @"bravan.3876" said:

> It is funny that ppl still think metabattle builds rated by some NA randoms are a good indicator for any balance issues xD

 

By all means post another site that sources builds for conquest. I don't give metabattle much credit because 10 reviews for a build means that 1 low review greatly swings the rating of the build.

 

But ask anyone in /m pvp lobby and you will be directed there for builds. I'm just pointing out that it is an indicator of mirages power.

 

 

[bravan.3876]

> @"Gwaihir.1745" said:

> > @"bravan.3876" said:

> > It is funny that ppl still think metabattle builds rated by some NA randoms are a good indicator for any balance issues xD

>

> By all means post another site that sources builds for conquest. I don't give metabattle much credit because 10 reviews for a build means that 1 low review greatly swings the rating of the build.

>

> But ask anyone in /m pvp lobby and you will be directed there for builds. I'm just pointing out that it is an indicator of mirages power.

>

>

 

There is godofpvp or something, i doubt pure glass shatter mirage is even listed there. Metabattle is no indicator of mirages power for the exact same reason anet should not ask low skilled ppl for balance advices. The NA random noobs on metabattle rating a build they get rekt by not a build they could play themself in any decent skilled environement because it is rly good. That is why a build that isn't rly is meta or any good or ez compared to the real meta can get a high rating there. Metabattle only proves what is known already: Power mesmer is good in killing noobs. Ofc you can also find real metabuilds on metabattle, that is why it is ok to lead ppl looking for working builds to this side but never take metabattle as an indicatior for balance issues in particular when it comes to mesmer.

[Daishi.6027]

Condi mirage needs it’s application looked at, same as condi thief.

 

Other than that mirage is fine.

[bravan.3876]

> @"Daishi.6027" said:

> Condi mirage needs it’s application looked at, same as condi thief.

>

> Other than that mirage is fine.

 

Condi and hybrid mirage need some nerfs, axe 3 has way to low cooldown for example. For power mirage they should remove the stunbreak on dodge but yes than mirage is fine.

[Math.5123]

> @"Daishi.6027" said:

> Condi mirage needs it’s application looked at, same as condi thief.

>

> Other than that mirage is fine.

 

The ability to dodge while stunned and breaking stun on dodge needs to go. The ability to cast during dodge as well as securing safe stomps with a dodge is already strong enough.

The mirage dodge is literally a zero clone distort on a 7 second cooldown.

The horrible 8 sec cooldown target break on axe 3 needs to go as well. No one is getting fooled by who is the real mesmer anymore, it simply adds to the many aspects why mirages are unfun to fight.

 

This is without touching on sword ambush, which is probably the strongest mirage skill right now.

 

TLDR; nerfing Condi application is no where near enough.

[Daishi.6027]

> @"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:

> > @"Daishi.6027" said:

> > Condi mirage needs it’s application looked at, same as condi thief.

> >

> > Other than that mirage is fine.

>

> The ability to dodge while stunned and breaking stun on dodge needs to go. The ability to cast during dodge as well as securing safe stomps with a dodge is already strong enough.

> The mirage dodge is literally a zero clone distort on a 7 second cooldown.

> The horrible 8 sec cooldown target break on axe 3 needs to go as well. No one is getting fooled by who is the real mesmer anymore, it simply adds to the many aspects why mirages are unfun to fight.

>

> This is without touching on sword ambush, which is probably the strongest mirage skill right now.

>

> TLDR; nerfing Condi application is no where near enough.

 

Dogging while stunned is about on par with the amount of stability being stacked, or other classes ability to just negate stuns. Only classes with truly successful consistent stun up times that matter in 5v5 conquest is holo and gimmick war builds no one seriously runs.

^ People jump at this being OP, but don't seem to realize how well you can use this for reads. It is super easy to make a mirage waste their dodges.

We exist in a meta where you don't need to run stuns to win sides.

 

Stun on dodge really only affects the thief vs mes matchp which would become a hard counter unless running elusive mind, and even then exhaust would be a down hill battle in that matchup. If this happened it would push all mirage out of the meta and be replaced in slot. Vs mirage as any class you can fail a couple hard reads, mirage would have to get that read every time or die. Maybe this is what you want, but I prefer an on par fair fight that can go either way instead of rock, paper, scissors.

 

Other than Heals and phants mirage has nothing else worth casting while dogging, and unless you have the features of chrono, this got core killed for simply trying to cast phantasms which is already a easy to play around damage source with tons of counter play.

 

A distort is the same effect as a dodge for a vast majority of situations, I don't see why that is relevant.

 

I agree axe needs to be looked at, and that is a part of one of the major condi builds.

 

Sword ambush is strong, but mobility is part of the design, it could lose the extra clone.

 

Nerfing Condi being an abundant, and frequent damage type with a healthy amount of covers will mean the class lives and can escape. This is fine, many-many classes can do this. However the damage will be reduced to a point where you can cleanse it, or avoid the front loaded hits making it much easier to force off point or stall it, putting it in line with power which you can easily kill if you just use your head.

[maxwelgm.4315]

Distortion is absolutely NOTHING like a dodge, neither is mirage cloak. During distorting you're invulnerable but allowed to act, you're not forced to move into any particular direction, you **can stomp and heal while you do it**, among any other actions you might think of, such as dropping portals and what not. This is one of the **most** relevant things, but if that cannot be seen, this discussion is not going anywhere (it doesn't go anywhere among the balance team I guess, so...).

[EpicTurtle.8571]

> @"maxwelgm.4315" said:

> Distortion is absolutely NOTHING like a dodge, neither is mirage cloak. During distorting you're invulnerable but allowed to act, you're not forced to move into any particular direction, you **can stomp and heal while you do it**, among any other actions you might think of, such as dropping portals and what not. This is one of the **most** relevant things, but if that cannot be seen, this discussion is not going anywhere (it doesn't go anywhere among the balance team I guess, so...).

 

I wouldn't expect most if not all of the discussion regarding Mirage and to some extent Mesmer in general to go anywhere if I were you.

[Math.5123]

> @"maxwelgm.4315" said:

> Distortion is absolutely NOTHING like a dodge, neither is mirage cloak. During distorting you're invulnerable but allowed to act, you're not forced to move into any particular direction, you **can stomp and heal while you do it**, among any other actions you might think of, such as dropping portals and what not. This is one of the **most** relevant things, but if that cannot be seen, this discussion is not going anywhere (it doesn't go anywhere among the balance team I guess, so...).

 

During mirage cloak, your invulnerable but allowed to act, you're not forced to move into any particular direction ... I hope you see where this is going.

[Daishi.6027]

"Does not force movement nor cancel any actions"... Good thing it's not cancelling my blurred frenzy, phase retreat, chaos storm, torch 4, or shatters to dodge instead. Cuz that would be imba! Oh wait... lol

Again the only things really being covered are heal, and phant summons.

 

Being able to evade during those motions was part of the design for mirage, sorry it took away the "come burst me and you'll be safe before my phant gets to you" sign, and gave a way to cover heal, when most other classes had more efficient ways, or better passive sustain.

[EpicTurtle.8571]

> @"Daishi.6027" said:

> "Does not force movement nor cancel any actions"... Good thing it's not cancelling my blurred frenzy, phase retreat, chaos storm, torch 4, or shatters to doge instead. Cuz that would be imba! Oh wait... lol

> Again the only things really being covered are heal, and phant summons.

>

> Being able to evade during those motions was part of the design for mirage, sorry it took away the "come burst me and you'll be safe before my phant gets to you" sign, and gave a way to cover heal, when most other classes had more efficient ways, or better passive sustain.

 

Everyone needs a whipping boy /eyeroll

[bravan.3876]

> @"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:

> > @"bravan.3876" said:

> > > @"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:

> > > > @"maxwelgm.4315" said:

> > > > Distortion is absolutely NOTHING like a dodge, neither is mirage cloak. During distorting you're invulnerable but allowed to act, you're not forced to move into any particular direction, you **can stomp and heal while you do it**, among any other actions you might think of, such as dropping portals and what not. This is one of the **most** relevant things, but if that cannot be seen, this discussion is not going anywhere (it doesn't go anywhere among the balance team I guess, so...).

> > >

> > > During mirage cloak, your invulnerable but allowed to act, you're not forced to move into any particular direction ... I hope you see where this is going.

> >

> > No you are invulnerable just like you are with a normal dodge, conditions still will do the dmg during dodges and you can get interrupted by skills like line of warding. Mirage cloak is just a dodge and title it like a distortion is just trying to create even more drama and give very not so good player some more false arguments at hand. Just stay with your brainless core guard spec and close your mouth. Not even enough braincells for a condimirage but talking...

>

> First of, I'm sorry if I hurt you in the past.

> Secondly, mirage cloak has a 33% duration increase from what a normal dodge has. This means it lands at one second.

> It does not force a movement nor does it cancel any actions.

> It does not negate condition damage, no invulnerability does. Distortion included.

> The only difference between the two, outside of the icon and animation is that it doesn't benefit from shatter traits, and you can't walk over ward effects. Other than that, it has the same function.

>

> Also, I don't know if you want to say "not enough braincells for a Condi mirage" considering the meta we are currently in.

 

When you hurt me? Must have forgotten but i doubt i ever gave you that much might lmao. I'm just stating facts, no misinterpretation pls.

Not that condimirage needs that much braincells but sure more than core guard and that in both class mechanics and rotations.

A dodge is a dmg avoid mechanic. Mirage cloak gets interrupted/effected by everything (dmg and cc) in the same way as a normal dodge, invulnerability doesn't. That you can cast and not only instant spell during it doesn't change that. The stunbreak on dodge is broken and needs to go, aside from that mirage cloak is fine. When a mirage needs to dodge to get his long casttime and well telegraphed skills through without being interrupted than just dmg him after when he has no dodges to actually avoid your dmg. That is counterable. Strong mirage feature but counterable and still doesn't bring power mesmer back into meta. Nerf condi and hybrid, that means torch fire stacks, axe cds, give an icd on ineptitude, change the last bonus from adventure rune. Stuff like this, enough things can get nerfed without deleting power mesmer completely during that.

It is not mirage cloak what makes condi and hybrid mirage op and it is still just a dodge.

[Legatus.3608]

People have been showing anet their bias in regards to mesmer for ages, yet this still seems to happen every patch. Hmmmm.

[Faffin.6741]

> @"Daishi.6027" said:

> > @"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:

> > > @"Daishi.6027" said:

> > > Condi mirage needs it’s application looked at, same as condi thief.

> > >

> > > Other than that mirage is fine.

> >

> > The ability to dodge while stunned and breaking stun on dodge needs to go. The ability to cast during dodge as well as securing safe stomps with a dodge is already strong enough.

> > The mirage dodge is literally a zero clone distort on a 7 second cooldown.

> > The horrible 8 sec cooldown target break on axe 3 needs to go as well. No one is getting fooled by who is the real mesmer anymore, it simply adds to the many aspects why mirages are unfun to fight.

> >

> > This is without touching on sword ambush, which is probably the strongest mirage skill right now.

> >

> > TLDR; nerfing Condi application is no where near enough.

>

> Dogging while stunned is about on par with the amount of stability being stacked, or other classes ability to just negate stuns. Only classes with truly successful consistent stun up times that matter in 5v5 conquest is holo and gimmick war builds no one seriously runs.

> ^ People jump at this being OP, but don't seem to realize how well you can use this for reads. It is super easy to make a mirage waste their doges.

> We exist in a meta where you don't need to run stuns to win sides.

>

> Stun on doge really only affects the thief vs mes matchp which would become a hard counter unless running elusive mind, and even then exhaust would be a down hill battle in that matchup. If this happened it would push all mirage out of the meta and be replaced in slot. Vs mirage as any class you can fail a couple hard reads, mirage would have to get that read every time or die. Maybe this is what you want, but I prefer an on par fair fight that can go either way instead of rock, paper, scissors.

>

> Other than Heals and phants mirage has nothing else worth casting while dogging, and unless you have the features of chrono, this got core killed for simply trying to cast phantasms which is already a easy to play around damage source with tons of counter play.

>

> A distort is the same effect as a doge for a vast majority of situations, I don't see why that is relevant.

>

> I agree axe needs to be looked at, and that is a part of one of the major condi builds.

>

> Sword ambush is strong, but mobility is part of the design, it could lose the extra clone.

>

> Nerfing Condi being an abundant, and frequent damage type with a healthy amount of covers will mean the class lives and can escape. This is fine, many-many classes can do this. However the damage will be reduced to a point where you can cleanse it, or avoid the front loaded hits making it much easier to force off point or stall it, putting it in line with power which you can easily kill if you just use your head.

 

All this is irrelevant for at least 90% of the people in SPVP.

 

If you balance Mesmers around the skills of the top 100 or so, the vast majority of the player base will still see them as overpowered, so it's far more than a l2p issue.

[Gihn.1043]

 

> @"Sampson.2403" said:

> Should we be referring to a different site than metabattle for builds?

 

this but unironically

[bravan.3876]

> @"Faffin.6741" said:

> > @"Daishi.6027" said:

> > > @"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:

> > > > @"Daishi.6027" said:

> > > > Condi mirage needs it’s application looked at, same as condi thief.

> > > >

> > > > Other than that mirage is fine.

> > >

> > > The ability to dodge while stunned and breaking stun on dodge needs to go. The ability to cast during dodge as well as securing safe stomps with a dodge is already strong enough.

> > > The mirage dodge is literally a zero clone distort on a 7 second cooldown.

> > > The horrible 8 sec cooldown target break on axe 3 needs to go as well. No one is getting fooled by who is the real mesmer anymore, it simply adds to the many aspects why mirages are unfun to fight.

> > >

> > > This is without touching on sword ambush, which is probably the strongest mirage skill right now.

> > >

> > > TLDR; nerfing Condi application is no where near enough.

> >

> > Dogging while stunned is about on par with the amount of stability being stacked, or other classes ability to just negate stuns. Only classes with truly successful consistent stun up times that matter in 5v5 conquest is holo and gimmick war builds no one seriously runs.

> > ^ People jump at this being OP, but don't seem to realize how well you can use this for reads. It is super easy to make a mirage waste their doges.

> > We exist in a meta where you don't need to run stuns to win sides.

> >

> > Stun on doge really only affects the thief vs mes matchp which would become a hard counter unless running elusive mind, and even then exhaust would be a down hill battle in that matchup. If this happened it would push all mirage out of the meta and be replaced in slot. Vs mirage as any class you can fail a couple hard reads, mirage would have to get that read every time or die. Maybe this is what you want, but I prefer an on par fair fight that can go either way instead of rock, paper, scissors.

> >

> > Other than Heals and phants mirage has nothing else worth casting while dogging, and unless you have the features of chrono, this got core killed for simply trying to cast phantasms which is already a easy to play around damage source with tons of counter play.

> >

> > A distort is the same effect as a doge for a vast majority of situations, I don't see why that is relevant.

> >

> > I agree axe needs to be looked at, and that is a part of one of the major condi builds.

> >

> > Sword ambush is strong, but mobility is part of the design, it could lose the extra clone.

> >

> > Nerfing Condi being an abundant, and frequent damage type with a healthy amount of covers will mean the class lives and can escape. This is fine, many-many classes can do this. However the damage will be reduced to a point where you can cleanse it, or avoid the front loaded hits making it much easier to force off point or stall it, putting it in line with power which you can easily kill if you just use your head.

>

> All this is irrelevant for at least 90% of the people in SPVP.

>

> If you balance Mesmers around the skills of the top 100 or so, the vast majority of the player base will still see them as overpowered, so it's far more than a l2p issue.

 

Balancing for very not so good player and ppl too lazy to enable their brains and prefer to cry about a class rekt them but still they can't play themself isn't a good idea either.

[Faffin.6741]

> @"bravan.3876" said:

> > @"Faffin.6741" said:

> > > @"Daishi.6027" said:

> > > > @"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:

> > > > > @"Daishi.6027" said:

> > > > > Condi mirage needs it’s application looked at, same as condi thief.

> > > > >

> > > > > Other than that mirage is fine.

> > > >

> > > > The ability to dodge while stunned and breaking stun on dodge needs to go. The ability to cast during dodge as well as securing safe stomps with a dodge is already strong enough.

> > > > The mirage dodge is literally a zero clone distort on a 7 second cooldown.

> > > > The horrible 8 sec cooldown target break on axe 3 needs to go as well. No one is getting fooled by who is the real mesmer anymore, it simply adds to the many aspects why mirages are unfun to fight.

> > > >

> > > > This is without touching on sword ambush, which is probably the strongest mirage skill right now.

> > > >

> > > > TLDR; nerfing Condi application is no where near enough.

> > >

> > > Dogging while stunned is about on par with the amount of stability being stacked, or other classes ability to just negate stuns. Only classes with truly successful consistent stun up times that matter in 5v5 conquest is holo and gimmick war builds no one seriously runs.

> > > ^ People jump at this being OP, but don't seem to realize how well you can use this for reads. It is super easy to make a mirage waste their doges.

> > > We exist in a meta where you don't need to run stuns to win sides.

> > >

> > > Stun on doge really only affects the thief vs mes matchp which would become a hard counter unless running elusive mind, and even then exhaust would be a down hill battle in that matchup. If this happened it would push all mirage out of the meta and be replaced in slot. Vs mirage as any class you can fail a couple hard reads, mirage would have to get that read every time or die. Maybe this is what you want, but I prefer an on par fair fight that can go either way instead of rock, paper, scissors.

> > >

> > > Other than Heals and phants mirage has nothing else worth casting while dogging, and unless you have the features of chrono, this got core killed for simply trying to cast phantasms which is already a easy to play around damage source with tons of counter play.

> > >

> > > A distort is the same effect as a doge for a vast majority of situations, I don't see why that is relevant.

> > >

> > > I agree axe needs to be looked at, and that is a part of one of the major condi builds.

> > >

> > > Sword ambush is strong, but mobility is part of the design, it could lose the extra clone.

> > >

> > > Nerfing Condi being an abundant, and frequent damage type with a healthy amount of covers will mean the class lives and can escape. This is fine, many-many classes can do this. However the damage will be reduced to a point where you can cleanse it, or avoid the front loaded hits making it much easier to force off point or stall it, putting it in line with power which you can easily kill if you just use your head.

> >

> > All this is irrelevant for at least 90% of the people in SPVP.

> >

> > If you balance Mesmers around the skills of the top 100 or so, the vast majority of the player base will still see them as overpowered, so it's far more than a l2p issue.

>

> Balancing for very not so good player and ppl too lazy to enable their brains and prefer to cry about a class rekt them but still they can't play themself isn't a good idea either.

 

That's true, but it's very unlikely to happen.