DaShi.1368 Posted July 6, 2018 Share Posted July 6, 2018 > @"Leo G.4501" said: > > @"Eternity Theory.5392" said: > > I am incredibly disappointed in ANet for this. While the Twitter comments were out of line, the only reason this blew up so much is because it involved a woman talking about sexism; if it had been a male dev mouthing off just because he was having a bad day or whatever, people would have been upset, but it wouldn't have gotten nearly as much attention or vitriol, and this is incredibly obvious if you read any of the threads on the subject here or on the subreddit. ANet isn't stupid, they obviously know this. And they chose to feed it, to give in to the seething misogyny instead of taking a more measured approach, jumping straight to firing and shaming the employees instead of taking a more measured approach. > > > > Well, if a male dev mouthed off, he probably wouldn't have drug identity politics into it and made it an altercation that was more mano y mano. Can a man use a victim card if no one cares about male victims? lol > > The lesson to learn is, politics are a sensitive talking point even when used by a woman. And women have made sexism a political issue. > That's nonsense. Whether its politics or not doesn't matter. It's only called politics because she's right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leo G.4501 Posted July 6, 2018 Share Posted July 6, 2018 > @"Greyraven.4258" said: > > @"DaShi.1368" said: > > > @"Leo G.4501" said: > > > > @"DaShi.1368" said: > > > > > @"Tolmos.8395" said: > > > > > > @"Batel.9206" said: > > > > > > > @"DaShi.1368" said: > > > > > > > All I'm seeing through searches about this is a bunch of white men defending other white men. Can someone please help me find some articles and comments from women on this topic? > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi, I'm a woman, and I am glad beyond belief that Price was fired. Price's disgusting, vile behaviour was utterly unacceptable as a representative of ArenaNet. What other articles or comments are you looking for? I'm a tad confused. > > > > > > > > > > > > Also, what does skin color have to do with anything? > > > > > > > > > > To some people, everything apparently. In their eyes, not everyone deserves a voice to speak with. It's a shame, but luckily people like that are not nearly as numerous as the many people who disapprove of that kind of hate, so it's ok. > > > > > > > > Not sure where you're going with this. I just want to hear what other types of people think. Are you really threaten by that? > > > > > > Personally, I'm impressed you genuinely feel that the race or sex of a person trumps objective realities presented unbiasly. Do you not like to think for yourself? > > > > How many times to you need to be reported? > > Just a heads up grudge reporting often backfires especially on this forum (Heck any Arenanet forum for that matter) My advice is agree to disagree and move on. > > .......Ironically none of this would have even happened, if JP would have done just that. FYI, I don't report anyone (unless you post inappropriate pictures or something). You can say anything you want to me :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azrielvon.7836 Posted July 6, 2018 Share Posted July 6, 2018 > @"melodyca.8921" said: > > @"Eternity Theory.5392" said: > > I am incredibly disappointed in ANet for this. While the Twitter comments were out of line, the only reason this blew up so much is because it involved a woman talking about sexism; if it had been a male dev mouthing off just because he was having a bad day or whatever, people would have been upset, but it wouldn't have gotten nearly as much attention or vitriol, and this is incredibly obvious if you read any of the threads on the subject here or on the subreddit. ANet isn't stupid, they obviously know this. And they chose to feed it, to give in to the seething misogyny instead of taking a more measured approach, jumping straight to firing and shaming the employees instead of taking a more measured approach. > > > > If this had happened a day earlier, I probably wouldn't have bought all the gems I just got. I will definitely have to think twice about any future purchases I make from them, if the cesspit that the forums and subreddit have been is the sort of community they want to encourage. > > > > Also, TotalBiscuit supported a hate movement and encouraged his fans to harass his critics and other people he didn't like. Him being dead doesn't change that he did some absolutely repulsive things and hurt people for no good reason. He was mean and abusive, and that shouldn't be forgotten or downplayed, and expecting decorum towards him when he showed none is rather gross; chastising people for not being appropriately respectful of an abuser is implicitly supporting what he did. There is something seriously wrong if you have harsher words for people who are critical of his actions than for his actions themselves. > > He incited his fans to bully and harass game developers. There is no love lost in the game developer community. The fact that so many people think that behavior s acceptable shows me we have alot to growing up to do as a society. > > I have so much respect for developers like Naughty Dog and other ones who are no longer tolerating the abuse and pushing back. Game companies need to crack down on youtubers and sue them. And gamers need to learn to grow up and not be so entitled. You wanna pay for the court fees? I am starting to feel that the echo chamber of social justice warriors are those who has not worked a day in a professional environment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashen.2907 Posted July 6, 2018 Share Posted July 6, 2018 > @"DaShi.1368" said: > > @"Ashen.2907" said: > > > @"DaShi.1368" said: > > > > @"Shoyoko.7309" said: > > > > > @"Sylv.5324" said: > > > > > > @"Shoyoko.7309" said: > > > > > > > What happen to "innocent until proven guilty"? > > > > > > > > > > That's a legal term that not even the courts take seriously, so it doesn't have anything to do with anything. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The term is not just legal it's also a saying that you shouldn't assume too quickly and accuse someone without evidence or "receipts". > > > > > > > > > @"DaShi.1368" said: > > > > > > @"Shoyoko.7309" said: > > > > > > > @"DaShi.1368" said: > > > > > > > > @"mixxed.5862" said: > > > > > > > > I'm disgusted by this community's reaction to her tweet, calling for her to be fired and being genuinely happy about it afterwards. To me it's simply inconceivable how so many could overreact like that to blow this matter this massively out of proportion. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > She obviously perceived herself as being treated in a sexist way and called it out. It doesn't matter whether this indeed was the case or not, because it is very understandable how she could arrive at that conclusion: > > > > > > > > She posts a long, well thought out comment explaining why it's state of the art in the MMORPG genre to present the player character the way they do. A hardcore fan chimes in to "politely" tell her he disagrees and suggests to implement branching story lines as if she was a complete amateur and never heard of it. That fan implied she as a dev on the narrative team was incompetent at her job to then kindly tell her how to do it better. He probably didn't mean to but this is what you'll take from his comment when you read on the relationship and appeal layer from her perspective instead of taking it purely as factual (if you're not familiar with the four-sides model of communication you probably won't be able to make sense of this). Given the fact it was posted on her personal twitter account and the outlined context, she wasn't wrong in taking the comment as a personal slight. She then reacted accordingly. > > > > > > > > Women wrongfully being regarded as less competent than they really are is a VERY common symptom of sexism in our society. This happens even despite them having years of professional expertise and for no other reason than their gender. It unmistakably is sexism, although in a more subtle way and therefore in many cases hard to detect. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Imo her reaction was perfectly understandable - although it was unprofessional. She shouldn't have replied to criticism on her own twitter account like a private person. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thank you! A thousand times this! Many may not understand where she's coming from, but that doesn't make her wrong. > > > > > > > > > > > > The definition of sexism: > > > > > > prejudice, stereotyping, or discrimination, typically against women, on the basis of sex. > > > > > > > > > > > > Now please tell me, where did Deroir imply that his comment was influenced by her gender. Even as a woman, I can see that it was clear that if anything, she could have taken it as a personal slight workwise at most but there was never any indication that his comment was negative due to her gender anywhere. What Jessica Price did was verbally one of harshest thing you could to someone which was implying Deroir a sexist. > > > > > > Imagine if I was the one who wrote the piece, Deroir replied the same way and I called him racist. Pretty harsh right?! That's how harsh calling someone sexist is. It's literally one of the worst labels you could give someone, especially to someone like Deroir who was not only a gw2 player, he was a partner of Anet?! What happen to "innocent until proven guilty"? > > > > > > Whilst you have point about the current sexism in our society, this is clearly not the right battlefield for such debate rather the only reason we are having this conversation is due to JP's accusation and nothing else. > > > > > > I believe she was too quick to judge and was naive to believe that any tweets in her private twitter would gain attention and responses from GW2 players even though she was clearly talking about GW2 and her bio mentions arenanet. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't think so at all. Deroir did come across as a sexist. If he wasn't, he would have recognized how his comments could have been taken that way and apologized. It's really that simple. > > > > > > > > > > His post was a clear case of mansplaining with a touch of negging, which is totally sexist. > > > > > > > > Oh come on, it was clear for anyone to see not just deroir that she could have been uncomfortable of his feedback ** workwise **, even deroir did ever so carefully to frame his feedback constructive and politely when he said "allow me to disagree *slighty*". Again, where is the indication that it was due to gender? > > > > > > I stated it in the last sentence of my post. His post if unintentionally sexist, was still sexist do to ignorance in communicating with women. > > > > Disagreeing with someone's opinions, ideas, etc is not sexist unless the reason for disagreement is the sex of that someone. > > That's not what I said, Karl. You said his post was sexist. His post was a disagreement with her position and a suggestion of his own. No sexism unless you can demonstrate that he made his points because she was female. Rick? 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Batel.9206 Posted July 6, 2018 Share Posted July 6, 2018 > @"Eternity Theory.5392" said: > I am incredibly disappointed in ANet for this. While the Twitter comments were out of line, the only reason this blew up so much is because it involved a woman talking about sexism; if it had been a male dev mouthing off just because he was having a bad day or whatever, people would have been upset, but it wouldn't have gotten nearly as much attention or vitriol, and this is incredibly obvious if you read any of the threads on the subject here or on the subreddit. ANet isn't stupid, they obviously know this. And they chose to feed it, to give in to the seething misogyny instead of taking a more measured approach, jumping straight to firing and shaming the employees instead of taking a more measured approach. > > If this had happened a day earlier, I probably wouldn't have bought all the gems I just got. I will definitely have to think twice about any future purchases I make from them, if the cesspit that the forums and subreddit have been is the sort of community they want to encourage. > > Also, TotalBiscuit supported a hate movement and encouraged his fans to harass his critics and other people he didn't like. Him being dead doesn't change that he did some absolutely repulsive things and hurt people for no good reason. He was mean and abusive, and that shouldn't be forgotten or downplayed, and expecting decorum towards him when he showed none is rather gross; chastising people for not being appropriately respectful of an abuser is implicitly supporting what he did. There is something seriously wrong if you have harsher words for people who are critical of his actions than for his actions themselves. "It involved a woman talking about sexism..." Well, okay - let's flip the scenario (as has been theorized many times in this thread and in others). Jessica Price is now male! Deroir is female! Male!Price goes off on a profane rant telling female!Deroir about how dare _she_ tell _him_ what to do and how to do his job, and that female!Deroir is automatically hating on male!Price just because male!Price is...well, male. Cue flaming mad feminists (and everyone with a working brain) in three...two...one..... Yet somehow, the reverse of the situation is acceptable? No, it isn't about a woman talking about sexism. It isn't about a woman at all - I, and I'm sure many others, don't care if Jessica Price is female, male, or an unidentified shapeless blob of dark matter. It's about Price's immature and profane attacks against a prominent and respected community member, that has no place coming from a representative of a company. *The end*. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sylv.5324 Posted July 6, 2018 Share Posted July 6, 2018 > @"Leo G.4501" said: > > And women have made sexism a political issue. That is extremely simplistic. Sexism, while not a problem here, IS a problem, and both men and women agree that it's a problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shoyoko.7309 Posted July 6, 2018 Share Posted July 6, 2018 > @"DaShi.1368" said: > > @"Dreadshow.9320" said: > > > @"DaShi.1368" said: > > > All I'm seeing through searches about this is a bunch of white men defending other white men. Can someone please help me find some articles and comments from women on this topic? > > > > So you don't know how to search or just read what you want? > > Not in this particular thread but one of the many others: > > > > > @"Dreamwolf.7423" said: > > > I've seen posts defending her actions and I was to ask this: > > > If it had been a man saying those things to a female player, would you be defending their actions then? > > > > > > As a female player, I can say that I was ashamed of her interactions with the community. Her language toward them was insulting and rude, and completely uncalled for. If she didn't want to have a discussion about work stuff on her day off on her "personal" account, then she shouldn't have opened the floor by posting what she did. If it was addressed in the AMA that should have been the end of it. But it seems to me that she went out of her way to further discussion about a game related topic and then lost her mind when someone stepped up with opposing ideas and suggestions. > > And... > > >@Shoyoko.7309 said: > > >The definition of sexism: > > >prejudice, stereotyping, or discrimination, typically against women, on the basis of sex. > > >Now please tell me, where did Deroir imply that his comment was influenced by her gender. Even as a woman, I can see that it was clear that if anything, she could have taken it as a personal slight workwise at most but there was never any indication that his comment was negative due to her gender anywhere. What Jessica Price did was verbally one of harshest thing you could to someone which was implying Deroir a sexist. > > Or maybe I didn't read every post here and asked for help. Also, I've already stated where I disagree with Shoyoko, whose post is ridiculous. But it is harsh and one of the worst labels to call someone, a sexist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaShi.1368 Posted July 6, 2018 Share Posted July 6, 2018 > @"Ashen.2907" said: > > @"DaShi.1368" said: > > > @"Ashen.2907" said: > > > > @"DaShi.1368" said: > > > > > @"Shoyoko.7309" said: > > > > > > @"Sylv.5324" said: > > > > > > > @"Shoyoko.7309" said: > > > > > > > > What happen to "innocent until proven guilty"? > > > > > > > > > > > > That's a legal term that not even the courts take seriously, so it doesn't have anything to do with anything. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The term is not just legal it's also a saying that you shouldn't assume too quickly and accuse someone without evidence or "receipts". > > > > > > > > > > > @"DaShi.1368" said: > > > > > > > @"Shoyoko.7309" said: > > > > > > > > @"DaShi.1368" said: > > > > > > > > > @"mixxed.5862" said: > > > > > > > > > I'm disgusted by this community's reaction to her tweet, calling for her to be fired and being genuinely happy about it afterwards. To me it's simply inconceivable how so many could overreact like that to blow this matter this massively out of proportion. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > She obviously perceived herself as being treated in a sexist way and called it out. It doesn't matter whether this indeed was the case or not, because it is very understandable how she could arrive at that conclusion: > > > > > > > > > She posts a long, well thought out comment explaining why it's state of the art in the MMORPG genre to present the player character the way they do. A hardcore fan chimes in to "politely" tell her he disagrees and suggests to implement branching story lines as if she was a complete amateur and never heard of it. That fan implied she as a dev on the narrative team was incompetent at her job to then kindly tell her how to do it better. He probably didn't mean to but this is what you'll take from his comment when you read on the relationship and appeal layer from her perspective instead of taking it purely as factual (if you're not familiar with the four-sides model of communication you probably won't be able to make sense of this). Given the fact it was posted on her personal twitter account and the outlined context, she wasn't wrong in taking the comment as a personal slight. She then reacted accordingly. > > > > > > > > > Women wrongfully being regarded as less competent than they really are is a VERY common symptom of sexism in our society. This happens even despite them having years of professional expertise and for no other reason than their gender. It unmistakably is sexism, although in a more subtle way and therefore in many cases hard to detect. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Imo her reaction was perfectly understandable - although it was unprofessional. She shouldn't have replied to criticism on her own twitter account like a private person. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thank you! A thousand times this! Many may not understand where she's coming from, but that doesn't make her wrong. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The definition of sexism: > > > > > > > prejudice, stereotyping, or discrimination, typically against women, on the basis of sex. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Now please tell me, where did Deroir imply that his comment was influenced by her gender. Even as a woman, I can see that it was clear that if anything, she could have taken it as a personal slight workwise at most but there was never any indication that his comment was negative due to her gender anywhere. What Jessica Price did was verbally one of harshest thing you could to someone which was implying Deroir a sexist. > > > > > > > Imagine if I was the one who wrote the piece, Deroir replied the same way and I called him racist. Pretty harsh right?! That's how harsh calling someone sexist is. It's literally one of the worst labels you could give someone, especially to someone like Deroir who was not only a gw2 player, he was a partner of Anet?! What happen to "innocent until proven guilty"? > > > > > > > Whilst you have point about the current sexism in our society, this is clearly not the right battlefield for such debate rather the only reason we are having this conversation is due to JP's accusation and nothing else. > > > > > > > I believe she was too quick to judge and was naive to believe that any tweets in her private twitter would gain attention and responses from GW2 players even though she was clearly talking about GW2 and her bio mentions arenanet. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't think so at all. Deroir did come across as a sexist. If he wasn't, he would have recognized how his comments could have been taken that way and apologized. It's really that simple. > > > > > > > > > > > > His post was a clear case of mansplaining with a touch of negging, which is totally sexist. > > > > > > > > > > Oh come on, it was clear for anyone to see not just deroir that she could have been uncomfortable of his feedback ** workwise **, even deroir did ever so carefully to frame his feedback constructive and politely when he said "allow me to disagree *slighty*". Again, where is the indication that it was due to gender? > > > > > > > > I stated it in the last sentence of my post. His post if unintentionally sexist, was still sexist do to ignorance in communicating with women. > > > > > > Disagreeing with someone's opinions, ideas, etc is not sexist unless the reason for disagreement is the sex of that someone. > > > > That's not what I said, Karl. > > You said his post was sexist. His post was a disagreement with her position and a suggestion of his own. > > No sexism unless you can demonstrate that he made his points because she was female. Rick? It's a reference to Karl Rove's playbook, which you are using a bit too blatantly. I may respond to a real response in the future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaShi.1368 Posted July 6, 2018 Share Posted July 6, 2018 > @"Shoyoko.7309" said: > > @"DaShi.1368" said: > > > @"Dreadshow.9320" said: > > > > @"DaShi.1368" said: > > > > All I'm seeing through searches about this is a bunch of white men defending other white men. Can someone please help me find some articles and comments from women on this topic? > > > > > > So you don't know how to search or just read what you want? > > > Not in this particular thread but one of the many others: > > > > > > > @"Dreamwolf.7423" said: > > > > I've seen posts defending her actions and I was to ask this: > > > > If it had been a man saying those things to a female player, would you be defending their actions then? > > > > > > > > As a female player, I can say that I was ashamed of her interactions with the community. Her language toward them was insulting and rude, and completely uncalled for. If she didn't want to have a discussion about work stuff on her day off on her "personal" account, then she shouldn't have opened the floor by posting what she did. If it was addressed in the AMA that should have been the end of it. But it seems to me that she went out of her way to further discussion about a game related topic and then lost her mind when someone stepped up with opposing ideas and suggestions. > > > And... > > > >@Shoyoko.7309 said: > > > >The definition of sexism: > > > >prejudice, stereotyping, or discrimination, typically against women, on the basis of sex. > > > >Now please tell me, where did Deroir imply that his comment was influenced by her gender. Even as a woman, I can see that it was clear that if anything, she could have taken it as a personal slight workwise at most but there was never any indication that his comment was negative due to her gender anywhere. What Jessica Price did was verbally one of harshest thing you could to someone which was implying Deroir a sexist. > > > > Or maybe I didn't read every post here and asked for help. Also, I've already stated where I disagree with Shoyoko, whose post is ridiculous. > > But it is harsh and one of the worst labels to call someone, a sexist. No, there are far worse things to call someone than sexist. It's just men don't often get called them. Being called sexist isn't even an insult. It's just calling out bad behavior and asking someone to do better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zaklex.6308 Posted July 6, 2018 Share Posted July 6, 2018 > @"gateless gate.8406" said: > > @"Zaklex.6308" said: > > Actually I disagree, it's more because we as human beings don't know the difference between personal and professional, and businesses do not have the cajones to tell customers the difference between an employees personal and professional opinions...that's the problem. This also has nothing to do with biomedicine and biotechnology...but it does have a lot to do with psychology. It also made me look at how I see our current President, whom I don't like as a person and I don't like the job he's doing...but I do like how he speaks his mind and doesn't care what others think...however, I'd be worse than he is and I do not do political correctness and I do not care if I offend people, if I offend someone it's because they take things to personally. I can't be offended, by anything, because I don't care what anyone else says or thinks, they don't define me, I define me and who I am. > > Bad Person works in company X. Bad Person uses social media to showcase divisive/controversial/offensive opinions. Customer sees said social media usage and makes the reasonable assumption that Bad Person, being a human being and having a human brain, is informed by their personal opinions and that their personal opinions shape their behavior, even in the workplace. > > That's it. That's really all that's happening. And it's the reasonable, logical assumption to make. If you assume that people become robots that behave according to external rules once they enter the workplace, that's the wrong assumption to be making. I do not assume people become robots that behave according to external rules once they enter the workplace...however I do presume they behave according to internal rules once they enter the workplace, as in workplace rules, which should not, but unfortunately for some stupid reason seem to apply outside of work as well. That's the difference, there are two sets of rules, those that apply at work and those that apply when not at work...why people can't comprehend that simple concept is beyond me. Wait, I think I know why...it's called failed parenting...you teach your children that there are different sets of rules, but if no one ever teaches them there are different sets of rules then they never learn...and that's it, everything falls back to failed parenting and to much coddling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alfador.7649 Posted July 6, 2018 Share Posted July 6, 2018 > @"DaShi.1368" said: > > @"Ashen.2907" said: > > > @"DaShi.1368" said: > > > > @"Ashen.2907" said: > > > > > @"DaShi.1368" said: > > > > > > @"Shoyoko.7309" said: > > > > > > > @"Sylv.5324" said: > > > > > > > > @"Shoyoko.7309" said: > > > > > > > > > What happen to "innocent until proven guilty"? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That's a legal term that not even the courts take seriously, so it doesn't have anything to do with anything. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The term is not just legal it's also a saying that you shouldn't assume too quickly and accuse someone without evidence or "receipts". > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"DaShi.1368" said: > > > > > > > > @"Shoyoko.7309" said: > > > > > > > > > @"DaShi.1368" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"mixxed.5862" said: > > > > > > > > > > I'm disgusted by this community's reaction to her tweet, calling for her to be fired and being genuinely happy about it afterwards. To me it's simply inconceivable how so many could overreact like that to blow this matter this massively out of proportion. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > She obviously perceived herself as being treated in a sexist way and called it out. It doesn't matter whether this indeed was the case or not, because it is very understandable how she could arrive at that conclusion: > > > > > > > > > > She posts a long, well thought out comment explaining why it's state of the art in the MMORPG genre to present the player character the way they do. A hardcore fan chimes in to "politely" tell her he disagrees and suggests to implement branching story lines as if she was a complete amateur and never heard of it. That fan implied she as a dev on the narrative team was incompetent at her job to then kindly tell her how to do it better. He probably didn't mean to but this is what you'll take from his comment when you read on the relationship and appeal layer from her perspective instead of taking it purely as factual (if you're not familiar with the four-sides model of communication you probably won't be able to make sense of this). Given the fact it was posted on her personal twitter account and the outlined context, she wasn't wrong in taking the comment as a personal slight. She then reacted accordingly. > > > > > > > > > > Women wrongfully being regarded as less competent than they really are is a VERY common symptom of sexism in our society. This happens even despite them having years of professional expertise and for no other reason than their gender. It unmistakably is sexism, although in a more subtle way and therefore in many cases hard to detect. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Imo her reaction was perfectly understandable - although it was unprofessional. She shouldn't have replied to criticism on her own twitter account like a private person. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thank you! A thousand times this! Many may not understand where she's coming from, but that doesn't make her wrong. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The definition of sexism: > > > > > > > > prejudice, stereotyping, or discrimination, typically against women, on the basis of sex. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Now please tell me, where did Deroir imply that his comment was influenced by her gender. Even as a woman, I can see that it was clear that if anything, she could have taken it as a personal slight workwise at most but there was never any indication that his comment was negative due to her gender anywhere. What Jessica Price did was verbally one of harshest thing you could to someone which was implying Deroir a sexist. > > > > > > > > Imagine if I was the one who wrote the piece, Deroir replied the same way and I called him racist. Pretty harsh right?! That's how harsh calling someone sexist is. It's literally one of the worst labels you could give someone, especially to someone like Deroir who was not only a gw2 player, he was a partner of Anet?! What happen to "innocent until proven guilty"? > > > > > > > > Whilst you have point about the current sexism in our society, this is clearly not the right battlefield for such debate rather the only reason we are having this conversation is due to JP's accusation and nothing else. > > > > > > > > I believe she was too quick to judge and was naive to believe that any tweets in her private twitter would gain attention and responses from GW2 players even though she was clearly talking about GW2 and her bio mentions arenanet. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't think so at all. Deroir did come across as a sexist. If he wasn't, he would have recognized how his comments could have been taken that way and apologized. It's really that simple. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > His post was a clear case of mansplaining with a touch of negging, which is totally sexist. > > > > > > > > > > > > Oh come on, it was clear for anyone to see not just deroir that she could have been uncomfortable of his feedback ** workwise **, even deroir did ever so carefully to frame his feedback constructive and politely when he said "allow me to disagree *slighty*". Again, where is the indication that it was due to gender? > > > > > > > > > > I stated it in the last sentence of my post. His post if unintentionally sexist, was still sexist do to ignorance in communicating with women. > > > > > > > > Disagreeing with someone's opinions, ideas, etc is not sexist unless the reason for disagreement is the sex of that someone. > > > > > > That's not what I said, Karl. > > > > You said his post was sexist. His post was a disagreement with her position and a suggestion of his own. > > > > No sexism unless you can demonstrate that he made his points because she was female. Rick? > > It's a reference to Karl Rove's playbook, which you are using a bit too blatantly. I may respond to a real response in the future. So in other words you can't actually demonstrate how anything he said is sexist. You just want us to take your word for it I guess? Giving polite feedback to someone speaking openly in a public forum meant specifically for interaction (seriously twitter is pretty much the worst possible media for her to pick if she didn't want responses) is not sexist just because the party receiving the feedback is a woman. By that completely absurd standard you're using here, women are functionally immune to criticism in all situations from roughly half the human population. And no just saying it was "clearly mansplaining" doesn't magically make it so. Mansplaining, like it or not, has a specific implication, that the explanation happened on the basis of gender. There is zero reason other than a hostile and bad faith assumption on your part to believe that his feedback would have been any different had JP's gender been unknown or had she in fact been male. It is readily apparent that, much as she would have done, you're using the term and the stigma that it carries as a weapon to shut down debate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leo G.4501 Posted July 6, 2018 Share Posted July 6, 2018 > @"Crinn.7864" said: > > @"Leo G.4501" said: > > > @"Crinn.7864" said: > > > > @"Leo G.4501" said: > > > > > @"Crinn.7864" said: > > > > > > @"xarallei.4279" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > Okay, I don't see that as a backhand. She says the genre is the fault point here but the partner says "perhaps it's just your game"? That's exactly right. SWTOR is the anti-thesis to her observation. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yup. I keep seeing people try to bash Deroir and state how doing what he asks is impossible and he doesn't know what he's talking about. They specifically point to the genre and say it can't be done with MMOs....but, well SWTOR did it, so it's obviously not so impossible as they think it is. Now maybe there is something regarding the Living Story in particular that makes it not work? Who knows, but instead of biting the head off of player she could have just answered in a civil manner. Instead she was rude and dismissive. That kind of behavior is simply not acceptable. She is an Arenanet employee in a public setting talking to a customer. When interacting with customers some thought must be put into your responses. > > > > > > > > > > SW:TOR had a 200million dollar development budget (this number doesn't include marketing) just for the vanilla game, and has gone down in video game history as the single most costly video game ever produced. (The second most expensive game to produce is GTA V at 137 million) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What SW:TOR did isn't really relevant for studios that have sane budgets. Price's original comment (before she exploded) was more or less on point with the limitations of game writing. > > > > > > > > They also made, like 8 branching stories with different scenarios, choices and branching dialogs. I'd assume GW2 making, like, 3 wouldn't break the bank (so to speak). > > > > > > It also took them over 6 years to make those stories, and that's with Bioware outsourcing the engine work. > > > > > > Do you want to wait a entire year between living world episodes? > > > > > > > Honestly, it depends on the quality of the product. Would I want to wait an entire year for GW2's living world episodes? No. Would I wait over a year for half of one of SWTOR's class scenarios? Of course! > > That's about 45 minutes of content once you remove the travel time. Half of the vanilla stories could be summed up with: go to your ship, fly back to Coruscant, exit ship, run for 4mins to the senate building, have a 1 minute conversation with General Garza, and then have to travel all the way back to where you where originally. > > I don't understand why ya'll are holding SW:TOR in such esteem. SW:TOR was condemned by both the industry and it's own devs as a overly expensive waste of resources. I will admit my ignorance as I only got a chance to play the Sith Warrior with my friend's Spy on a free-to-play account and it took us more than 45 min to get through the content. Still doesn't disprove the level of investment we put into our choices and the overall story. But I would like to actually discuss this possibility in the context of GW2. The only thing I get from your reply is how resource intensive it likely was to which I'd like to brainstorm every aspect that makes it so and think of a possibility to mitigate those aspects. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melodyca.8921 Posted July 6, 2018 Share Posted July 6, 2018 > @"Azrielvon.7836" said: > > @"melodyca.8921" said: > > > @"Eternity Theory.5392" said: > > > I am incredibly disappointed in ANet for this. While the Twitter comments were out of line, the only reason this blew up so much is because it involved a woman talking about sexism; if it had been a male dev mouthing off just because he was having a bad day or whatever, people would have been upset, but it wouldn't have gotten nearly as much attention or vitriol, and this is incredibly obvious if you read any of the threads on the subject here or on the subreddit. ANet isn't stupid, they obviously know this. And they chose to feed it, to give in to the seething misogyny instead of taking a more measured approach, jumping straight to firing and shaming the employees instead of taking a more measured approach. > > > > > > If this had happened a day earlier, I probably wouldn't have bought all the gems I just got. I will definitely have to think twice about any future purchases I make from them, if the cesspit that the forums and subreddit have been is the sort of community they want to encourage. > > > > > > Also, TotalBiscuit supported a hate movement and encouraged his fans to harass his critics and other people he didn't like. Him being dead doesn't change that he did some absolutely repulsive things and hurt people for no good reason. He was mean and abusive, and that shouldn't be forgotten or downplayed, and expecting decorum towards him when he showed none is rather gross; chastising people for not being appropriately respectful of an abuser is implicitly supporting what he did. There is something seriously wrong if you have harsher words for people who are critical of his actions than for his actions themselves. > > > > He incited his fans to bully and harass game developers. There is no love lost in the game developer community. The fact that so many people think that behavior s acceptable shows me we have alot to growing up to do as a society. > > > > I have so much respect for developers like Naughty Dog and other ones who are no longer tolerating the abuse and pushing back. Game companies need to crack down on youtubers and sue them. And gamers need to learn to grow up and not be so entitled. > > You wanna pay for the court fees? > > I am starting to feel that the echo chamber of social justice warriors are those who has not worked a day in a professional environment. Im not a SJW and I work in a professional environment. I see both sides of the coin. I don't support developer abuse. People have been threatened, stalked and abused by entitled gamers. It needs to stop. If you think that behavior is acceptable thats your right but some of us don't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaShi.1368 Posted July 6, 2018 Share Posted July 6, 2018 > @"Alfador.7649" said: > > @"DaShi.1368" said: > > > @"Ashen.2907" said: > > > > @"DaShi.1368" said: > > > > > @"Ashen.2907" said: > > > > > > @"DaShi.1368" said: > > > > > > > @"Shoyoko.7309" said: > > > > > > > > @"Sylv.5324" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Shoyoko.7309" said: > > > > > > > > > > What happen to "innocent until proven guilty"? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That's a legal term that not even the courts take seriously, so it doesn't have anything to do with anything. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The term is not just legal it's also a saying that you shouldn't assume too quickly and accuse someone without evidence or "receipts". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"DaShi.1368" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Shoyoko.7309" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"DaShi.1368" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"mixxed.5862" said: > > > > > > > > > > > I'm disgusted by this community's reaction to her tweet, calling for her to be fired and being genuinely happy about it afterwards. To me it's simply inconceivable how so many could overreact like that to blow this matter this massively out of proportion. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > She obviously perceived herself as being treated in a sexist way and called it out. It doesn't matter whether this indeed was the case or not, because it is very understandable how she could arrive at that conclusion: > > > > > > > > > > > She posts a long, well thought out comment explaining why it's state of the art in the MMORPG genre to present the player character the way they do. A hardcore fan chimes in to "politely" tell her he disagrees and suggests to implement branching story lines as if she was a complete amateur and never heard of it. That fan implied she as a dev on the narrative team was incompetent at her job to then kindly tell her how to do it better. He probably didn't mean to but this is what you'll take from his comment when you read on the relationship and appeal layer from her perspective instead of taking it purely as factual (if you're not familiar with the four-sides model of communication you probably won't be able to make sense of this). Given the fact it was posted on her personal twitter account and the outlined context, she wasn't wrong in taking the comment as a personal slight. She then reacted accordingly. > > > > > > > > > > > Women wrongfully being regarded as less competent than they really are is a VERY common symptom of sexism in our society. This happens even despite them having years of professional expertise and for no other reason than their gender. It unmistakably is sexism, although in a more subtle way and therefore in many cases hard to detect. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Imo her reaction was perfectly understandable - although it was unprofessional. She shouldn't have replied to criticism on her own twitter account like a private person. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thank you! A thousand times this! Many may not understand where she's coming from, but that doesn't make her wrong. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The definition of sexism: > > > > > > > > > prejudice, stereotyping, or discrimination, typically against women, on the basis of sex. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Now please tell me, where did Deroir imply that his comment was influenced by her gender. Even as a woman, I can see that it was clear that if anything, she could have taken it as a personal slight workwise at most but there was never any indication that his comment was negative due to her gender anywhere. What Jessica Price did was verbally one of harshest thing you could to someone which was implying Deroir a sexist. > > > > > > > > > Imagine if I was the one who wrote the piece, Deroir replied the same way and I called him racist. Pretty harsh right?! That's how harsh calling someone sexist is. It's literally one of the worst labels you could give someone, especially to someone like Deroir who was not only a gw2 player, he was a partner of Anet?! What happen to "innocent until proven guilty"? > > > > > > > > > Whilst you have point about the current sexism in our society, this is clearly not the right battlefield for such debate rather the only reason we are having this conversation is due to JP's accusation and nothing else. > > > > > > > > > I believe she was too quick to judge and was naive to believe that any tweets in her private twitter would gain attention and responses from GW2 players even though she was clearly talking about GW2 and her bio mentions arenanet. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't think so at all. Deroir did come across as a sexist. If he wasn't, he would have recognized how his comments could have been taken that way and apologized. It's really that simple. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > His post was a clear case of mansplaining with a touch of negging, which is totally sexist. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Oh come on, it was clear for anyone to see not just deroir that she could have been uncomfortable of his feedback ** workwise **, even deroir did ever so carefully to frame his feedback constructive and politely when he said "allow me to disagree *slighty*". Again, where is the indication that it was due to gender? > > > > > > > > > > > > I stated it in the last sentence of my post. His post if unintentionally sexist, was still sexist do to ignorance in communicating with women. > > > > > > > > > > Disagreeing with someone's opinions, ideas, etc is not sexist unless the reason for disagreement is the sex of that someone. > > > > > > > > That's not what I said, Karl. > > > > > > You said his post was sexist. His post was a disagreement with her position and a suggestion of his own. > > > > > > No sexism unless you can demonstrate that he made his points because she was female. Rick? > > > > It's a reference to Karl Rove's playbook, which you are using a bit too blatantly. I may respond to a real response in the future. > > So in other words you can't actually demonstrate how anything he said is sexist. You just want us to take your word for it I guess? Giving polite feedback to someone speaking openly in a public forum meant specifically for interaction (seriously twitter is pretty much the worst possible media for her to pick if she didn't want responses) is not sexist just because the party receiving the feedback is a woman. By that completely absurd standard you're using here, women are functionally immune to criticism in all situations from roughly half the human population. > > And no just saying it was "clearly mansplaining" doesn't magically make it so. Mansplaining, like it or not, has a specific implication, that the explanation happened on the basis of gender. There is zero reason other than a hostile and bad faith assumption on your part to believe that his feedback would have been any different had JP's gender been unknown or had she in fact been male. I stated it several times in previous posts. If you are truly interested go through those and come back with a rational response. If you're polite, I might even reply. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zaklex.6308 Posted July 6, 2018 Share Posted July 6, 2018 > @"Hyper Legend.3421" said: > > @"Tolmos.8395" said: > > > @"Zaklex.6308" said: > > > > @"Teratus.2859" said: > > > > > @"Zaklex.6308" said: > > > > > > @"Ashen.2907" said: > > > > > > > @"Zaklex.6308" said: > > > > > > > > @"Ashen.2907" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Zaklex.6308" said: > > > > > > > > > Actually, I'm disappointed in ArenaNet...and the vast majority of the GW community as well...this is 2018, we all need to move into the now and start learning to separate a persons freedom of speech on PERSONAL social media from what they say on BUSINESS related social media. This actually extends beyond social media and includes sports personal conduct clauses...what you or anyone does on their own PERSONAL time does not reflect on how well they perform a job. I'm going to be quite unpopular with the following, but all of this really started with the Ray Rice thing(look it up if you don't know about that) and the NFL. Now, before you think I condone any type of abuse against another person you'd be so far from the truth it would make me laugh, but having said that, even though what he did to his girlfriend in an elevator during the off-season was atrocious, I do not think it was anyone's business but his and hers alone. If you're going to hold someone else up as a role model, society has a serious issue, the only role models should be your parents(if you have them of course). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The only way society is going to advance is this way: what you do at work or while representing your employer is directly related to that employer; what you do or say on your own PERSONAL time has nothing to do with your employer and until the rest of the world learns this we're all screwed(that even includes if you reference your employer on your own PERSONAL social media handles). I DO NOT CARE what someone does on their own time, nor should anyone else but that person, even the employer should not care what that person does on their own PERSONAL time, but we as a society have forgotten how to separate work from personal time...that is what work hours are for, so those people unable to tell the difference can. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Wake up world, this is 2018, not 1984 or 1950 or anyone other year...time to evolve or die out. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If the person, on their own time and personal social media accounts, is actively promoting themself as a company representative then they have decided to erase the line between personal and professional. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Like I said, that's old school thinking, which almost everyone is still doing...either humankind evolves or it dies out, until humankind can learn to separate personal time from employee time...we as a society are screwed. I do not care if you mention in your private personal social media accounts who you work for, those are for your own private thoughts, I'm smart enough to realize they do not reflect the company you work for, but as we've all seen...there is another single person in America that is smart enough to be able to do that. I won't speak for the rest of the world...let me put my thinking into a simple example...I wear a uniform at work, while I'm wearing that uniform I am representing my employer, the minute I take off any part of the uniform that identifies my employer I am no on my PERSONAL time and I should be allowed to say anything I want that isn't illegal...even if completely contradicts my employers public image...that is the state the world needs to be in, separate the individual from the job, they are not the same thing. > > > > > > > > > > > > Right, but the person who chose to not separate the personal time from the professional was her. She chose to not evolve, as you put it, and suffered the, very unfortunate, consequences. > > > > > > > > > > Apparently you're unable to comprehend what I'm saying...it isn't only the poster that has to do that, it's also the reader...EVERYONE needs to separate personal time from professional time, even if you list your professional associations on your PERSONAL social media...that is what I am saying. Let me put it this way, say you work an 8 - 5 job, what you say during those 8 - 5 hours reflects on your employer...anything you say outside of those hours, unless you're at a function representing your employer are your PERSONAL opinions and have no reflection on your employer....that is how we as a society need to evolve. > > > > > > > > There's a very obvious fine line on this limitation though. > > > > > > > > I agree with the seperation of work and private life.. I've even said it myself in a previous comment. > > > > However the company/employee line can only be seperated by the individual not the company. > > > > If the individual chooses to affiliate their private social media with their place of employment then whether they like it or not their work and home lives are no longer seperate on their social media. > > > > > > > > I think I can speak for everyone here when I say that none of us think that what JP said on her personal social media in any way reflects Anet as a company.. that would just be crazy. > > > > However how can we expect Anet to maintain it's great reputation as an open an welcoming company that values and respects all its customers equally without prejudice when one of their employees is actively abusing the company's customers on a social media account that also happens to be directly affiliated to their company? > > > > > > > > There's just no way any company can tolerate that kind of behavior and disrespect from an employee.. on the clock or not, personal media account or not.. > > > > Public affiliation demands similar responsibilities and an employee that choses to represent their employer in their personal time needs to be held accountable for any and all negative publicity they bring towards the company that employs them through their behavior. > > > > > > > > I do not agree with the things JP said but I do support her right to say those things and had she done so on a personal social media account that was not affiliated with Anet Almost none of us would even have known about it in the first place and chances are the original comments that started this mess probably wouldn't have even happened either since the vast majority of her followers are Anet customers and would not be following her in the first place. > > > > > > > > Seperation of work and private life is definitely the best way to go we're very much agreed there. > > > > However this is and should always be the responsibility of the individual. > > > > > > Here's were you an I disagree...it should not be the individuals responsibility, it should be the companies responsibility to know the difference...after all, why do so many companies put out notices saying that the comments of so and so do not reflect the beliefs of this company? That tells me that companies already realize people are entitled to their opinions, but I actually do find fault with the other person in this case...and I've read what caused the uproar, that post was not an invitation to open a dialogue...it was a list of the facts stating why ArenaNet is constrained in telling the story they way they do...no where in that post did I see an invitation to offer an alternative or even open up a dialogue about it. I'm not sure how this Derior person is or if they're a native English speaker, but if they aren't then that could've been the problem, not understanding the context of the post, it wasn't an open invitation for discussion...it was more like a dissertation...this is how it is and why. > > > > That's pretty difficult to accomplish when the first thing folks do when they get mad is go straight to a person's employer and try to get them fired. Look at any other person who is ousted over negative comments involving gender, race, religion or nationality. Every time, folks immediately reach out to that person's employer and ask them "Do you condone this?" If the person isn't fired, people start boycotting. > > > > It's become the American way. > > It becomes an issue when you deviate from being a company ambassador of integrity to that of something personal, as if your customers are attacking you directly. > > I'm not sure if you read the entire argument, but she should've seen it coming. She made a mistake by bringing up company business in a private Twitter. If you want to share your political beliefs and opinions of similar sort in a social media venue, that's cool; however, once you start bringing your work into it, your opinions are now becoming reflected on behalf of your company. Surely she didn't intend to be the voice of ArenaNet in her words, but she made it so by starting a topic related to her job, then proceeding to get nasty with people. > > This is why you shouldn't talk about work on social media unless it's your job. Keep work at work, your outside life to yourself, and let the kitten go to the people in your life that care to lend an ear - NOT to your customers. > > And look, they had two ways they could've handled this. They could've let her apologize and keep her around on watch of what she says, or they could've gotten rid of her. From what I've read, JP has been toxic to the community for years. Her Twitter banner is even an indicator of this. She has low-tolerance toward people and is quick to become hostile. Chances are she would've been forced to apologize just to save face, only to grow bitter at the playerbase for trying to get her terminated. > > People were threatening to jump ship if ArenaNet didn't terminate her - myself included. I have to deal with enough political drama through the media and Hollywood; the last thing I want are salty developers hiding behind their irrelevant ideologies during simple conversation with honest, genuine players that want to have a conversation. > > I say MO did the right thing. Either way, it wasn't an easy decision, but keeping toxicity out lets fresh air in. I did the read the entire thing and the problem stems from Derior incorrectly determining that the tweet was open for discussion...it wasn't and I could tell it wasn't open for discussion. Sounds like we need to teach people how to understand context when reading as well, though context is part of reading comprehension, which is difficult if you're not a native English speaker(don't know whether or not Derior is) and you're trying to understand something written in English...you won't get the context. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sylv.5324 Posted July 6, 2018 Share Posted July 6, 2018 > @"Alfador.7649" said: > And no just saying it was "clearly mansplaining" doesn't magically make it so. Mansplaining, like it or not, has a specific implication, that the explanation happened on the basis of gender. I think they're trying to say that men do this subconsciously and it's still sexist, and they do and it is, but I don't personally see this as the case in this case. Clearly DaShi does, and you guys may need to agree to disagree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashen.2907 Posted July 6, 2018 Share Posted July 6, 2018 > @"Zaklex.6308" said: > > @"Hyper Legend.3421" said: > > > @"Tolmos.8395" said: > > > > @"Zaklex.6308" said: > > > > > @"Teratus.2859" said: > > > > > > @"Zaklex.6308" said: > > > > > > > @"Ashen.2907" said: > > > > > > > > @"Zaklex.6308" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Ashen.2907" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Zaklex.6308" said: > > > > > > > > > > Actually, I'm disappointed in ArenaNet...and the vast majority of the GW community as well...this is 2018, we all need to move into the now and start learning to separate a persons freedom of speech on PERSONAL social media from what they say on BUSINESS related social media. This actually extends beyond social media and includes sports personal conduct clauses...what you or anyone does on their own PERSONAL time does not reflect on how well they perform a job. I'm going to be quite unpopular with the following, but all of this really started with the Ray Rice thing(look it up if you don't know about that) and the NFL. Now, before you think I condone any type of abuse against another person you'd be so far from the truth it would make me laugh, but having said that, even though what he did to his girlfriend in an elevator during the off-season was atrocious, I do not think it was anyone's business but his and hers alone. If you're going to hold someone else up as a role model, society has a serious issue, the only role models should be your parents(if you have them of course). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The only way society is going to advance is this way: what you do at work or while representing your employer is directly related to that employer; what you do or say on your own PERSONAL time has nothing to do with your employer and until the rest of the world learns this we're all screwed(that even includes if you reference your employer on your own PERSONAL social media handles). I DO NOT CARE what someone does on their own time, nor should anyone else but that person, even the employer should not care what that person does on their own PERSONAL time, but we as a society have forgotten how to separate work from personal time...that is what work hours are for, so those people unable to tell the difference can. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Wake up world, this is 2018, not 1984 or 1950 or anyone other year...time to evolve or die out. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If the person, on their own time and personal social media accounts, is actively promoting themself as a company representative then they have decided to erase the line between personal and professional. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Like I said, that's old school thinking, which almost everyone is still doing...either humankind evolves or it dies out, until humankind can learn to separate personal time from employee time...we as a society are screwed. I do not care if you mention in your private personal social media accounts who you work for, those are for your own private thoughts, I'm smart enough to realize they do not reflect the company you work for, but as we've all seen...there is another single person in America that is smart enough to be able to do that. I won't speak for the rest of the world...let me put my thinking into a simple example...I wear a uniform at work, while I'm wearing that uniform I am representing my employer, the minute I take off any part of the uniform that identifies my employer I am no on my PERSONAL time and I should be allowed to say anything I want that isn't illegal...even if completely contradicts my employers public image...that is the state the world needs to be in, separate the individual from the job, they are not the same thing. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Right, but the person who chose to not separate the personal time from the professional was her. She chose to not evolve, as you put it, and suffered the, very unfortunate, consequences. > > > > > > > > > > > > Apparently you're unable to comprehend what I'm saying...it isn't only the poster that has to do that, it's also the reader...EVERYONE needs to separate personal time from professional time, even if you list your professional associations on your PERSONAL social media...that is what I am saying. Let me put it this way, say you work an 8 - 5 job, what you say during those 8 - 5 hours reflects on your employer...anything you say outside of those hours, unless you're at a function representing your employer are your PERSONAL opinions and have no reflection on your employer....that is how we as a society need to evolve. > > > > > > > > > > There's a very obvious fine line on this limitation though. > > > > > > > > > > I agree with the seperation of work and private life.. I've even said it myself in a previous comment. > > > > > However the company/employee line can only be seperated by the individual not the company. > > > > > If the individual chooses to affiliate their private social media with their place of employment then whether they like it or not their work and home lives are no longer seperate on their social media. > > > > > > > > > > I think I can speak for everyone here when I say that none of us think that what JP said on her personal social media in any way reflects Anet as a company.. that would just be crazy. > > > > > However how can we expect Anet to maintain it's great reputation as an open an welcoming company that values and respects all its customers equally without prejudice when one of their employees is actively abusing the company's customers on a social media account that also happens to be directly affiliated to their company? > > > > > > > > > > There's just no way any company can tolerate that kind of behavior and disrespect from an employee.. on the clock or not, personal media account or not.. > > > > > Public affiliation demands similar responsibilities and an employee that choses to represent their employer in their personal time needs to be held accountable for any and all negative publicity they bring towards the company that employs them through their behavior. > > > > > > > > > > I do not agree with the things JP said but I do support her right to say those things and had she done so on a personal social media account that was not affiliated with Anet Almost none of us would even have known about it in the first place and chances are the original comments that started this mess probably wouldn't have even happened either since the vast majority of her followers are Anet customers and would not be following her in the first place. > > > > > > > > > > Seperation of work and private life is definitely the best way to go we're very much agreed there. > > > > > However this is and should always be the responsibility of the individual. > > > > > > > > Here's were you an I disagree...it should not be the individuals responsibility, it should be the companies responsibility to know the difference...after all, why do so many companies put out notices saying that the comments of so and so do not reflect the beliefs of this company? That tells me that companies already realize people are entitled to their opinions, but I actually do find fault with the other person in this case...and I've read what caused the uproar, that post was not an invitation to open a dialogue...it was a list of the facts stating why ArenaNet is constrained in telling the story they way they do...no where in that post did I see an invitation to offer an alternative or even open up a dialogue about it. I'm not sure how this Derior person is or if they're a native English speaker, but if they aren't then that could've been the problem, not understanding the context of the post, it wasn't an open invitation for discussion...it was more like a dissertation...this is how it is and why. > > > > > > That's pretty difficult to accomplish when the first thing folks do when they get mad is go straight to a person's employer and try to get them fired. Look at any other person who is ousted over negative comments involving gender, race, religion or nationality. Every time, folks immediately reach out to that person's employer and ask them "Do you condone this?" If the person isn't fired, people start boycotting. > > > > > > It's become the American way. > > > > It becomes an issue when you deviate from being a company ambassador of integrity to that of something personal, as if your customers are attacking you directly. > > > > I'm not sure if you read the entire argument, but she should've seen it coming. She made a mistake by bringing up company business in a private Twitter. If you want to share your political beliefs and opinions of similar sort in a social media venue, that's cool; however, once you start bringing your work into it, your opinions are now becoming reflected on behalf of your company. Surely she didn't intend to be the voice of ArenaNet in her words, but she made it so by starting a topic related to her job, then proceeding to get nasty with people. > > > > This is why you shouldn't talk about work on social media unless it's your job. Keep work at work, your outside life to yourself, and let the kitten go to the people in your life that care to lend an ear - NOT to your customers. > > > > And look, they had two ways they could've handled this. They could've let her apologize and keep her around on watch of what she says, or they could've gotten rid of her. From what I've read, JP has been toxic to the community for years. Her Twitter banner is even an indicator of this. She has low-tolerance toward people and is quick to become hostile. Chances are she would've been forced to apologize just to save face, only to grow bitter at the playerbase for trying to get her terminated. > > > > People were threatening to jump ship if ArenaNet didn't terminate her - myself included. I have to deal with enough political drama through the media and Hollywood; the last thing I want are salty developers hiding behind their irrelevant ideologies during simple conversation with honest, genuine players that want to have a conversation. > > > > I say MO did the right thing. Either way, it wasn't an easy decision, but keeping toxicity out lets fresh air in. > > I did the read the entire thing and the problem stems from Derior incorrectly determining that the tweet was open for discussion...it wasn't and I could tell it wasn't open for discussion. Sounds like we need to teach people how to understand context when reading as well, though context is part of reading comprehension, which is difficult if you're not a native English speaker(don't know whether or not Derior is) and you're trying to understand something written in English...you won't get the context. A point made in a public forum is open for discussion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaShi.1368 Posted July 6, 2018 Share Posted July 6, 2018 > @"Sylv.5324" said: > > @"Alfador.7649" said: > > And no just saying it was "clearly mansplaining" doesn't magically make it so. Mansplaining, like it or not, has a specific implication, that the explanation happened on the basis of gender. > > I think they're trying to say that men do this subconsciously and it's still sexist, and they do and it is, but I don't personally see this as the case in this case. Clearly DaShi does, and you guys may need to agree to disagree. Thanks. That's fine with me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greyraven.4258 Posted July 6, 2018 Share Posted July 6, 2018 > @"Leo G.4501" said: > > @"Greyraven.4258" said: > > > @"DaShi.1368" said: > > > > @"Leo G.4501" said: > > > > > @"DaShi.1368" said: > > > > > > @"Tolmos.8395" said: > > > > > > > @"Batel.9206" said: > > > > > > > > @"DaShi.1368" said: > > > > > > > > All I'm seeing through searches about this is a bunch of white men defending other white men. Can someone please help me find some articles and comments from women on this topic? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi, I'm a woman, and I am glad beyond belief that Price was fired. Price's disgusting, vile behaviour was utterly unacceptable as a representative of ArenaNet. What other articles or comments are you looking for? I'm a tad confused. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Also, what does skin color have to do with anything? > > > > > > > > > > > > To some people, everything apparently. In their eyes, not everyone deserves a voice to speak with. It's a shame, but luckily people like that are not nearly as numerous as the many people who disapprove of that kind of hate, so it's ok. > > > > > > > > > > Not sure where you're going with this. I just want to hear what other types of people think. Are you really threaten by that? > > > > > > > > Personally, I'm impressed you genuinely feel that the race or sex of a person trumps objective realities presented unbiasly. Do you not like to think for yourself? > > > > > > How many times to you need to be reported? > > > > Just a heads up grudge reporting often backfires especially on this forum (Heck any Arenanet forum for that matter) My advice is agree to disagree and move on. > > > > .......Ironically none of this would have even happened, if JP would have done just that. > > FYI, I don't report anyone (unless you post inappropriate pictures or something). You can say anything you want to me :) Yeah I know Leo....wasn't really referring to you, I tend to have the same philosophy....it's just that emotions on both sides of the isle are running high, but the simple truth is JP has a long history of this both at Anet and her former company. As an aside... and speaking generally\randomly, too many "isms" these days have ridiculous purity tests and lots of hypocrisy, and having played Arenanet games since the very first beta's of GW1 I have come to understand this. Mike O loves gaming and his fans, and he isn't a fan of intolerance of any type. That was reinforced when I heard him speak at Gamescom, having talent isn't enough to be successful in life, and portraying yourself as an unhinged bully will always have consequences. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azrielvon.7836 Posted July 6, 2018 Share Posted July 6, 2018 > @"melodyca.8921" said: > > @"Azrielvon.7836" said: > > > @"melodyca.8921" said: > > > > @"Eternity Theory.5392" said: > > > > I am incredibly disappointed in ANet for this. While the Twitter comments were out of line, the only reason this blew up so much is because it involved a woman talking about sexism; if it had been a male dev mouthing off just because he was having a bad day or whatever, people would have been upset, but it wouldn't have gotten nearly as much attention or vitriol, and this is incredibly obvious if you read any of the threads on the subject here or on the subreddit. ANet isn't stupid, they obviously know this. And they chose to feed it, to give in to the seething misogyny instead of taking a more measured approach, jumping straight to firing and shaming the employees instead of taking a more measured approach. > > > > > > > > If this had happened a day earlier, I probably wouldn't have bought all the gems I just got. I will definitely have to think twice about any future purchases I make from them, if the cesspit that the forums and subreddit have been is the sort of community they want to encourage. > > > > > > > > Also, TotalBiscuit supported a hate movement and encouraged his fans to harass his critics and other people he didn't like. Him being dead doesn't change that he did some absolutely repulsive things and hurt people for no good reason. He was mean and abusive, and that shouldn't be forgotten or downplayed, and expecting decorum towards him when he showed none is rather gross; chastising people for not being appropriately respectful of an abuser is implicitly supporting what he did. There is something seriously wrong if you have harsher words for people who are critical of his actions than for his actions themselves. > > > > > > He incited his fans to bully and harass game developers. There is no love lost in the game developer community. The fact that so many people think that behavior s acceptable shows me we have alot to growing up to do as a society. > > > > > > I have so much respect for developers like Naughty Dog and other ones who are no longer tolerating the abuse and pushing back. Game companies need to crack down on youtubers and sue them. And gamers need to learn to grow up and not be so entitled. > > > > You wanna pay for the court fees? > > > > I am starting to feel that the echo chamber of social justice warriors are those who has not worked a day in a professional environment. > > Im not a kitten and I work in a professional environment. I see both sides of the coin. I don't support developer abuse. People have been threatened, stalked and abused by entitled gamers. It needs to stop. If you think that behavior is acceptable thats your right but some of us don't. As I mentioned in previous post. I admit that there are problems and they should be addressed when the situation calls for it. This is not abuse towards JP, this is a blatant act of abuse from the employee. That's it. End of story. However, if any players continue to harass or threaten her, that is a problem. Since Anet has made their decision, the matter should be set to rest. That's all most of us are saying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dreadshow.9320 Posted July 6, 2018 Share Posted July 6, 2018 > @"DaShi.1368" said: > > @"Dreadshow.9320" said: > > > @"DaShi.1368" said: > > > All I'm seeing through searches about this is a bunch of white men defending other white men. Can someone please help me find some articles and comments from women on this topic? > > > > So you don't know how to search or just read what you want? > > Not in this particular thread but one of the many others: > > > > > @"Dreamwolf.7423" said: > > > I've seen posts defending her actions and I was to ask this: > > > If it had been a man saying those things to a female player, would you be defending their actions then? > > > > > > As a female player, I can say that I was ashamed of her interactions with the community. Her language toward them was insulting and rude, and completely uncalled for. If she didn't want to have a discussion about work stuff on her day off on her "personal" account, then she shouldn't have opened the floor by posting what she did. If it was addressed in the AMA that should have been the end of it. But it seems to me that she went out of her way to further discussion about a game related topic and then lost her mind when someone stepped up with opposing ideas and suggestions. > > And... > > >@Shoyoko.7309 said: > > >The definition of sexism: > > >prejudice, stereotyping, or discrimination, typically against women, on the basis of sex. > > >Now please tell me, where did Deroir imply that his comment was influenced by her gender. Even as a woman, I can see that it was clear that if anything, she could have taken it as a personal slight workwise at most but there was never any indication that his comment was negative due to her gender anywhere. What Jessica Price did was verbally one of harshest thing you could to someone which was implying Deroir a sexist. > > Or maybe I didn't read every post here and asked for help. Also, I've already stated where I disagree with Shoyoko, whose post is ridiculous. Ok but there are post from women on the subject that found that womans' comment abusive so you are retracting your comment about being only white males? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shoyoko.7309 Posted July 6, 2018 Share Posted July 6, 2018 > @"DaShi.1368" said: > > @"Shoyoko.7309" said: > > > @"DaShi.1368" said: > > > > @"Dreadshow.9320" said: > > > > > @"DaShi.1368" said: > > > > > All I'm seeing through searches about this is a bunch of white men defending other white men. Can someone please help me find some articles and comments from women on this topic? > > > > > > > > So you don't know how to search or just read what you want? > > > > Not in this particular thread but one of the many others: > > > > > > > > > @"Dreamwolf.7423" said: > > > > > I've seen posts defending her actions and I was to ask this: > > > > > If it had been a man saying those things to a female player, would you be defending their actions then? > > > > > > > > > > As a female player, I can say that I was ashamed of her interactions with the community. Her language toward them was insulting and rude, and completely uncalled for. If she didn't want to have a discussion about work stuff on her day off on her "personal" account, then she shouldn't have opened the floor by posting what she did. If it was addressed in the AMA that should have been the end of it. But it seems to me that she went out of her way to further discussion about a game related topic and then lost her mind when someone stepped up with opposing ideas and suggestions. > > > > And... > > > > >@Shoyoko.7309 said: > > > > >The definition of sexism: > > > > >prejudice, stereotyping, or discrimination, typically against women, on the basis of sex. > > > > >Now please tell me, where did Deroir imply that his comment was influenced by her gender. Even as a woman, I can see that it was clear that if anything, she could have taken it as a personal slight workwise at most but there was never any indication that his comment was negative due to her gender anywhere. What Jessica Price did was verbally one of harshest thing you could to someone which was implying Deroir a sexist. > > > > > > Or maybe I didn't read every post here and asked for help. Also, I've already stated where I disagree with Shoyoko, whose post is ridiculous. > > > > But it is harsh and one of the worst labels to call someone, a sexist. > > No, there are far worse things to call someone than sexist. It's just men don't often get called them. Being called sexist isn't even an insult. It's just calling out bad behavior and asking someone to do better. LOLOLOLOL No it doesn't, it is definitely not like bad behaviour, it is way worse than that. Calling someone sexist doesn't mean just insults, it also can mean they have internal hate and have intentions to limit the opposite gender's opportunities or cause harm (mentally or physically). Its a lot worse than you think. smh. would you work with a person if you knew he was sexist? If he was really sexist, he wouldn't even apologised. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaShi.1368 Posted July 6, 2018 Share Posted July 6, 2018 > @"Dreadshow.9320" said: > > @"DaShi.1368" said: > > > @"Dreadshow.9320" said: > > > > @"DaShi.1368" said: > > > > All I'm seeing through searches about this is a bunch of white men defending other white men. Can someone please help me find some articles and comments from women on this topic? > > > > > > So you don't know how to search or just read what you want? > > > Not in this particular thread but one of the many others: > > > > > > > @"Dreamwolf.7423" said: > > > > I've seen posts defending her actions and I was to ask this: > > > > If it had been a man saying those things to a female player, would you be defending their actions then? > > > > > > > > As a female player, I can say that I was ashamed of her interactions with the community. Her language toward them was insulting and rude, and completely uncalled for. If she didn't want to have a discussion about work stuff on her day off on her "personal" account, then she shouldn't have opened the floor by posting what she did. If it was addressed in the AMA that should have been the end of it. But it seems to me that she went out of her way to further discussion about a game related topic and then lost her mind when someone stepped up with opposing ideas and suggestions. > > > And... > > > >@Shoyoko.7309 said: > > > >The definition of sexism: > > > >prejudice, stereotyping, or discrimination, typically against women, on the basis of sex. > > > >Now please tell me, where did Deroir imply that his comment was influenced by her gender. Even as a woman, I can see that it was clear that if anything, she could have taken it as a personal slight workwise at most but there was never any indication that his comment was negative due to her gender anywhere. What Jessica Price did was verbally one of harshest thing you could to someone which was implying Deroir a sexist. > > > > Or maybe I didn't read every post here and asked for help. Also, I've already stated where I disagree with Shoyoko, whose post is ridiculous. > > Ok but there are post from women on the subject that found that womans' comment abusive so you are retracting your comment about being only white males? I didn't say that, so there's nothing to retract. But thank you for policing me. How does that make you feel? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaShi.1368 Posted July 6, 2018 Share Posted July 6, 2018 > @"Shoyoko.7309" said: > > @"DaShi.1368" said: > > > @"Shoyoko.7309" said: > > > > @"DaShi.1368" said: > > > > > @"Dreadshow.9320" said: > > > > > > @"DaShi.1368" said: > > > > > > All I'm seeing through searches about this is a bunch of white men defending other white men. Can someone please help me find some articles and comments from women on this topic? > > > > > > > > > > So you don't know how to search or just read what you want? > > > > > Not in this particular thread but one of the many others: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Dreamwolf.7423" said: > > > > > > I've seen posts defending her actions and I was to ask this: > > > > > > If it had been a man saying those things to a female player, would you be defending their actions then? > > > > > > > > > > > > As a female player, I can say that I was ashamed of her interactions with the community. Her language toward them was insulting and rude, and completely uncalled for. If she didn't want to have a discussion about work stuff on her day off on her "personal" account, then she shouldn't have opened the floor by posting what she did. If it was addressed in the AMA that should have been the end of it. But it seems to me that she went out of her way to further discussion about a game related topic and then lost her mind when someone stepped up with opposing ideas and suggestions. > > > > > And... > > > > > >@Shoyoko.7309 said: > > > > > >The definition of sexism: > > > > > >prejudice, stereotyping, or discrimination, typically against women, on the basis of sex. > > > > > >Now please tell me, where did Deroir imply that his comment was influenced by her gender. Even as a woman, I can see that it was clear that if anything, she could have taken it as a personal slight workwise at most but there was never any indication that his comment was negative due to her gender anywhere. What Jessica Price did was verbally one of harshest thing you could to someone which was implying Deroir a sexist. > > > > > > > > Or maybe I didn't read every post here and asked for help. Also, I've already stated where I disagree with Shoyoko, whose post is ridiculous. > > > > > > But it is harsh and one of the worst labels to call someone, a sexist. > > > > No, there are far worse things to call someone than sexist. It's just men don't often get called them. Being called sexist isn't even an insult. It's just calling out bad behavior and asking someone to do better. > > LOLOLOLOL > No it doesn't, it is definitely not like bad behaviour, it is way worse than that. Calling someone sexist doesn't mean just insults, it also can mean they have internal hate and have intentions to limit the opposite gender's opportunities or cause harm (mentally or physically). > Its a lot worse than you think. > smh. > > If he was really sexist, he wouldn't even apologised. Sexism isn't always intentional. That's already been stated. You are probably sexist throughout your day, but don't even realize it. But women do notice. Getting called out on it is better than letting it continue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dreadshow.9320 Posted July 6, 2018 Share Posted July 6, 2018 > @"DaShi.1368" said: > > @"Dreadshow.9320" said: > > > @"DaShi.1368" said: > > > > @"Dreadshow.9320" said: > > > > > @"DaShi.1368" said: > > > > > All I'm seeing through searches about this is a bunch of white men defending other white men. Can someone please help me find some articles and comments from women on this topic? > > > > > > > > So you don't know how to search or just read what you want? > > > > Not in this particular thread but one of the many others: > > > > > > > > > @"Dreamwolf.7423" said: > > > > > I've seen posts defending her actions and I was to ask this: > > > > > If it had been a man saying those things to a female player, would you be defending their actions then? > > > > > > > > > > As a female player, I can say that I was ashamed of her interactions with the community. Her language toward them was insulting and rude, and completely uncalled for. If she didn't want to have a discussion about work stuff on her day off on her "personal" account, then she shouldn't have opened the floor by posting what she did. If it was addressed in the AMA that should have been the end of it. But it seems to me that she went out of her way to further discussion about a game related topic and then lost her mind when someone stepped up with opposing ideas and suggestions. > > > > And... > > > > >@Shoyoko.7309 said: > > > > >The definition of sexism: > > > > >prejudice, stereotyping, or discrimination, typically against women, on the basis of sex. > > > > >Now please tell me, where did Deroir imply that his comment was influenced by her gender. Even as a woman, I can see that it was clear that if anything, she could have taken it as a personal slight workwise at most but there was never any indication that his comment was negative due to her gender anywhere. What Jessica Price did was verbally one of harshest thing you could to someone which was implying Deroir a sexist. > > > > > > Or maybe I didn't read every post here and asked for help. Also, I've already stated where I disagree with Shoyoko, whose post is ridiculous. > > > > Ok but there are post from women on the subject that found that womans' comment abusive so you are retracting your comment about being only white males? > > I didn't say that, so there's nothing to retract. But thank you for policing me. How does that make you feel? @"DaShi.1368" said: > > > > > All I'm seeing through searches about this is a bunch of white men defending other white men. Can someone please help me find some articles and comments from women on this topic? At least two women are defending indignation towards her post. And I feel great reading you back peddle and change focus of your comments every second reply is quite entertaining. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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