GW 2 Devs/Playerbase Twitter Discussion

[DaShi.1368]

> @"Batelle.1680" said:

> Yeah, I'm kind of on the fence about staying with GW2. Do I think this entire thing was stupid and poorly handled by the persons fired? Yeah. Do I think that the misunderstanding was entirely baseless, given what I know/have seen female devs go through on a daily basis? Nah. Personally, I think an apology would have been the way to go. As it stands now, it seems like something that's going to emboldened the type of people who are deliberately and openly sexist/racist/homophobic, which is the last thing we need in general. I understand why Anet felt like they had to take action, I just think it was too extreme and, to me, it sends the opposite of a comforting message.

 

Yeah, if this is the reputation GW2 is going have for itself, I don't want to be associated with it either. I'm still hoping that they'll address the horrible consequences of their action.

[Morg.5986]

> @"DaShi.1368" said:

> > @"Morg.5986" said:

> > > @"DaShi.1368" said:

> > >Deroir was being condescending and rude

> > Do you have a single fact to back that up?

> >

> >

>

> Yes, the part of my post that you didn't include. :rolleyes:

 

In what way is it obvious?

[DaShi.1368]

> @"Morg.5986" said:

> > @"DaShi.1368" said:

> > > @"Morg.5986" said:

> > > > @"DaShi.1368" said:

> > > >Deroir was being condescending and rude

> > > Do you have a single fact to back that up?

> > >

> > >

> >

> > Yes, the part of my post that you didn't include. :rolleyes:

>

> In what way is it obvious?

 

What exactly are you referring to?

[kmdziak.1076]

> @"Batelle.1680" said:

> Yeah, I'm kind of on the fence about staying with GW2. Do I think this entire thing was stupid and poorly handled by the persons fired? Yeah. Do I think that the misunderstanding was entirely baseless, given what I know/have seen female devs go through on a daily basis? Nah. Personally, I think an apology would have been the way to go. As it stands now, it seems like something that's going to emboldened the type of people who are deliberately and openly sexist/racist/homophobic, which is the last thing we need in general. I understand why Anet felt like they had to take action, I just think it was too extreme and, to me, it sends the opposite of a comforting message.

 

"Deliberately and openly sexist...", u mean like the way she was by playing the sexist card on a male just because he wanted to discuss the topic she started by giving constructive criticism in the most polite way possible and her being unable to take it in a humanly way like every other sane person would or just simply ignoring it ? and then going on a rampage calling him "rando asshat" and saying that there's a lot of "hurt manfeels today" because of the whole fiasco, while also attacking other people who were pointing out her behaviour ? there's such a thing as hypocrisy and it applies here.

[DanAlcedo.3281]

Thank you.

[DaShi.1368]

> @"kmdziak.1076" said:

> > @"Batelle.1680" said:

> > Yeah, I'm kind of on the fence about staying with GW2. Do I think this entire thing was stupid and poorly handled by the persons fired? Yeah. Do I think that the misunderstanding was entirely baseless, given what I know/have seen female devs go through on a daily basis? Nah. Personally, I think an apology would have been the way to go. As it stands now, it seems like something that's going to emboldened the type of people who are deliberately and openly sexist/racist/homophobic, which is the last thing we need in general. I understand why Anet felt like they had to take action, I just think it was too extreme and, to me, it sends the opposite of a comforting message.

>

> "Deliberately and openly sexist...", u mean like the way she was by playing the sexist card on a male just because he wanted to discuss the topic she started by giving constructive criticism in the most polite way possible and her being unable to take it in a humanly way like every other sane person would or just simply ignoring it ? and then going on a rampage calling him "rando kitten" and saying that there's a lot of "hurt manfeels today" because of the whole fiasco, while also attacking other people who were pointing out her behaviour ? there's such a thing as hypocrisy and it applies here.

 

She was totally on point though. Just look at this thread. Everyone telling her how she should behave. Everyone trembling over the word sexist.

[Morg.5986]

> @"DaShi.1368" said:

> What exactly are you referring to?

In what way is it obvious to see Deroir's alleged condescension? It looks innocent to me.

 

[Azrielvon.7836]

I think at this point it is meaningless to try and have a conversation about this. Those who are against Anet's decision are just trying to perform mental gymnastics to try and justify Price's action or did not read previous responses and the same damn issue is being raised every page or simply making conclusions out of thin air without strong, objective facts or simply trying to 'interpret' something that isn't there. It is not moving forward and is just going to result in Ad Hominem between the 2 sides. I think some have wild guesses on why Fries was fired as well and quite frankly, none of us have actual facts to back up the argument as this is definitely discussed exclusively between Anet.

[Wyvern.7951]

Just got back into this game recently! I was beginning to regret it when I saw what transpired with Jessica Price, but I’m happy to see Anet handle things well.

 

I’ll be buying more on gems for sure! Thank you for standing up for your community. I understand that we fans get a little too passionate for our own good at times. I doubt it’s easy to deal with us a developer. I know I’d want to pull out my hair somedays, but I’m glad that as a company, you value your community so much. I really appreciate all the hard work you guys do as game developers! (:

 

It’s sad to see Peter Fries leave. I enjoyed reading his posts a lot! I hope him all the best in his future endeavours. That said, as a woman myself, I was really disappointed to see how Jessica Price conducted herself. It was completely out of line.

[Jitsuryoku.9038]

> @"Batelle.1680" said:

> Yeah, I'm kind of on the fence about staying with GW2. Do I think this entire thing was stupid and poorly handled by the persons fired? Yeah. Do I think that the misunderstanding was entirely baseless, given what I know/have seen female devs go through on a daily basis? Nah. Personally, I think an apology would have been the way to go. As it stands now, it seems like something that's going to emboldened the type of people who are deliberately and openly sexist/racist/homophobic, which is the last thing we need in general. I understand why Anet felt like they had to take action, I just think it was too extreme and, to me, it sends the opposite of a comforting message.

 

If I understand it correctly, devs were the ones to bring up gender, and that is most likely the reason "sexsism" was so prevalent (as a form of ridicule). If you do your job, nobody cares if you are a male a female or a 1 eyes war-veteran monkey, but the moment you try to use that in an argument, opposing people will inevitably call out the bullshit, if it is there.

PS: Also, I work with female devs and don't see anything out of the ordinary (They do a damn good job too). Care to share more details about what "You know/have seen female devs go through on a daily basis"?

 

 

[ChronosCosmos.9450]

> @"DaShi.1368" said:

> > @"kmdziak.1076" said:

> > > @"Batelle.1680" said:

> > > Yeah, I'm kind of on the fence about staying with GW2. Do I think this entire thing was stupid and poorly handled by the persons fired? Yeah. Do I think that the misunderstanding was entirely baseless, given what I know/have seen female devs go through on a daily basis? Nah. Personally, I think an apology would have been the way to go. As it stands now, it seems like something that's going to emboldened the type of people who are deliberately and openly sexist/racist/homophobic, which is the last thing we need in general. I understand why Anet felt like they had to take action, I just think it was too extreme and, to me, it sends the opposite of a comforting message.

> >

> > "Deliberately and openly sexist...", u mean like the way she was by playing the sexist card on a male just because he wanted to discuss the topic she started by giving constructive criticism in the most polite way possible and her being unable to take it in a humanly way like every other sane person would or just simply ignoring it ? and then going on a rampage calling him "rando kitten" and saying that there's a lot of "hurt manfeels today" because of the whole fiasco, while also attacking other people who were pointing out her behaviour ? there's such a thing as hypocrisy and it applies here.

>

> She was totally on point though. Just look at this thread. Everyone telling her how she should behave. Everyone trembling over the word sexist.

Most of what we are saying is true though. She has to act professional if she is representing a company that she works for. Sure for some, it is difficult, but they put themselves in that situation the moment that they represented Anet on twitter. If you act immature in a professional environment, it can affect their reputation, marketing and PR. PR has to work a lot whenever a fiasco of this magnitude happens. She's causing her own colleagues to put in overtime work that wouldn't have been there if she just answered professionally. It makes everyone in Anet look very bad. The people who work for Anet are good people, really.

 

[Jitsuryoku.9038]

> @"Azrielvon.7836" said:

> I think at this point it is meaningless to try and have a conversation about this. Those who are against Anet's decision are just trying to perform mental gymnastics to try and justify Price's action or did not read previous responses and the same kitten issue is being raised every page or simply making conclusions out of thin air without strong, objective facts or simply trying to 'interpret' something that isn't there. It is not moving forward and is just going to result in Ad Hominem between the 2 sides. I think some have wild guesses on why Fries was fired as well and quite frankly, none of us have actual facts to back up the argument as this is definitely discussed exclusively between Anet.

 

PLEASE! Link those facts! I couldn't find them in that mess of links pointing back and forth!

[squallaus.8321]

> @"DaShi.1368" said:

> She works for Anet. They don't own her. Deroir had every right to post what he did. It was horrible, but she did have an open conversation. That does not mean that she has to accept that kind of behavior. He post was basically, "I think you're writing sucks. Now smile for me." And a large, toxic group of the fanbase got upset that a woman defended herself and just didn't take the abuse.

 

Go on link Deroir's posts directly where he said "I think you're writing sucks. Now smile for me.".

 

JP directly referrenced her work on GW2 Living World story in her 'private' twitter account that is open to the public view and reply.

[Linken.6345]

> @"Adotiln Urthadar.1823" said:

> This was a very cowardly action. You have lost an incredible amount of respect in my eyes.

 

How?

[DaShi.1368]

> @"Morg.5986" said:

> > @"DaShi.1368" said:

> > What exactly are you referring to?

> In what way is it obvious to see Deroir's alleged condescension? It looks innocent to me.

>

 

I can understand that it looks that way to many people, especially to men, who don't have deal with this kind of condescension on a regular basis. The issue is that his response was something pretty basic in her field. Bringing it up as he did implied that she wasn't aware of it and thus not inadequate at her job. As I stated earlier, a better approach would have been to ask, "What about branching dialogue options? Do you think that would improve players' investments in their characters?" This is treating her respectfully and acknowledging her as a professional.

 

Again, you might say that she is being overly sensitive, but women, especially women in writing and game development, have to deal with this kind of behavior constantly. It's only been fairly recent that they've been able to speak out against it and express their feelings on being treated this way. Despite that, there are many who don't like women doing this and are fighting hard against it. Anet, but firing her, gave those people what they wanted.

[Master Ketsu.4569]

It's kinda sad because her initial statement about writing for MMOs was pretty spot on, so I have no doubt she is good at her job.

 

But yeah, responding to totally inoffensive constructive criticism with a standard "HURR DURR YOU JUST HATE ME BECUZ I'M A WOMAN REEEEEEE!!!!" was just silly, and is the epitome of everything people do not like about hypocrisy in modern social justice.

 

On one hand it's nice that someone actually got canned for misplaying the race/gander/whatever card when often they just get away with it. But on the other hand she wasn't a "bad" or "unskilled" employee. Just misguided due to the pacific NW being a bit too full of progressives for that regions own good.

[Azrielvon.7836]

> @"DaShi.1368" said:

> > @"Morg.5986" said:

> > > @"DaShi.1368" said:

> > > What exactly are you referring to?

> > In what way is it obvious to see Deroir's alleged condescension? It looks innocent to me.

> >

>

> I can understand that it looks that way to many people, especially to men, who don't have deal with this kind of condescension on a regular basis. The issue is that his response was something pretty basic in her field. Bringing it up as he did implied that she wasn't aware of it and thus not inadequate at her job. As I stated earlier, a better approach would have been to ask, "What about branching dialogue options? Do you think that would improve players' investments in their characters?" This is treating her respectfully and acknowledging her as a professional.

>

> Again, you might say that she is being overly sensitive, but women, especially women in writing and game development, have to deal with this kind of behavior constantly. It's only been fairly recent that they've been able to speak out against it and express their feelings on being treated this way. Despite that, there are many who don't like women doing this and are fighting hard against it. Anet, but firing her, gave those people what they wanted.

 

Ok, lets put it this way. Lets assume that Deroir's statement was indeed condescending. He did apologise and said he meant no offense. Price insisted on being offensive and play the victim card. How do you justify this movement?

 

 

 

[Morg.5986]

> @"DaShi.1368" said:

> > @"Morg.5986" said:

> > > @"DaShi.1368" said:

> > > What exactly are you referring to?

> > In what way is it obvious to see Deroir's alleged condescension? It looks innocent to me.

> >

>

> I can understand that it looks that way to many people, especially to men, who don't have deal with this kind of condescension on a regular basis. The issue is that his response was something pretty basic in her field. Bringing it up as he did implied that she wasn't aware of it and thus not inadequate at her job. As I stated earlier, a better approach would have been to ask, "What about branching dialogue options? Do you think that would improve players' investments in their characters?" This is treating her respectfully and acknowledging her as a professional.

>

> Again, you might say that she is being overly sensitive, but women, especially women in writing and game development, have to deal with this kind of behavior constantly. It's only been fairly recent that they've been able to speak out against it and express their feelings on being treated this way. Despite that, there are many who don't like women doing this and are fighting hard against it. Anet, but firing her, gave those people what they wanted.

 

Honestly, I think you're reaching. What another woman in another company has had happened to her has no bearing on this particular woman in this particular company's reprehensible actions. Surely she can take responsibility for herself?

 

*edited for missing key words because I'm a doofus

[Azrielvon.7836]

> @"Jitsuryoku.9038" said:

> > @"Azrielvon.7836" said:

> > I think at this point it is meaningless to try and have a conversation about this. Those who are against Anet's decision are just trying to perform mental gymnastics to try and justify Price's action or did not read previous responses and the same kitten issue is being raised every page or simply making conclusions out of thin air without strong, objective facts or simply trying to 'interpret' something that isn't there. It is not moving forward and is just going to result in Ad Hominem between the 2 sides. I think some have wild guesses on why Fries was fired as well and quite frankly, none of us have actual facts to back up the argument as this is definitely discussed exclusively between Anet.

>

> PLEASE! Link those facts! I couldn't find them in that mess of links pointing back and forth!

 

I do not want to link anything, I don't want to be accused of cherry picking. A good place to start would be the few Reddit threads. Take your time to absorb it.

[DaShi.1368]

> @"Morg.5986" said:

> > @"DaShi.1368" said:

> > > @"Morg.5986" said:

> > > > @"DaShi.1368" said:

> > > > What exactly are you referring to?

> > > In what way is it obvious to see Deroir's alleged condescension? It looks innocent to me.

> > >

> >

> > I can understand that it looks that way to many people, especially to men, who don't have deal with this kind of condescension on a regular basis. The issue is that his response was something pretty basic in her field. Bringing it up as he did implied that she wasn't aware of it and thus not inadequate at her job. As I stated earlier, a better approach would have been to ask, "What about branching dialogue options? Do you think that would improve players' investments in their characters?" This is treating her respectfully and acknowledging her as a professional.

> >

> > Again, you might say that she is being overly sensitive, but women, especially women in writing and game development, have to deal with this kind of behavior constantly. It's only been fairly recent that they've been able to speak out against it and express their feelings on being treated this way. Despite that, there are many who don't like women doing this and are fighting hard against it. Anet, but firing her, gave those people what they wanted.

>

> Honestly, I think you're reaching. What another woman in another company has no bearing on this particular woman in this particular company's reprehensible actions. Surely she can take responsibility for herself?

 

On reaching, that's a fair response. I'm simply stating it as I see it based on my own experiences. I've admitted that Deroir probably didn't intend to come across that way. But when she was pissed about it, rather than going after her, he should have considered what in his post could have elicited that response. Most people don't get mad for no reason.

 

As for what happens to other women. That's not what I was saying. I was merely adding context of what Jessica has experienced that would lead her to interpret his post the way she did.

 

 

[Ashen.2907]

> @"DaShi.1368" said:

He post was basically, "I think you're writing sucks. Now smile for me."

 

This is factually inaccurate.

[DaShi.1368]

> @"Azrielvon.7836" said:

> > @"Jitsuryoku.9038" said:

> > > @"Azrielvon.7836" said:

> > > I think at this point it is meaningless to try and have a conversation about this. Those who are against Anet's decision are just trying to perform mental gymnastics to try and justify Price's action or did not read previous responses and the same kitten issue is being raised every page or simply making conclusions out of thin air without strong, objective facts or simply trying to 'interpret' something that isn't there. It is not moving forward and is just going to result in Ad Hominem between the 2 sides. I think some have wild guesses on why Fries was fired as well and quite frankly, none of us have actual facts to back up the argument as this is definitely discussed exclusively between Anet.

> >

> > PLEASE! Link those facts! I couldn't find them in that mess of links pointing back and forth!

>

> I do not want to link anything, I don't want to be accused of cherry picking. A good place to start would be the few Reddit threads. Take your time to absorb it.

 

I think most of those Reddit threads have had posts deleted. What's left is practically unsearchable.

[Zaklex.6308]

> @"ChronosCosmos.9450" said:

> > @"DaShi.1368" said:

> > > @"kmdziak.1076" said:

> > > > @"Batelle.1680" said:

> > > > Yeah, I'm kind of on the fence about staying with GW2. Do I think this entire thing was stupid and poorly handled by the persons fired? Yeah. Do I think that the misunderstanding was entirely baseless, given what I know/have seen female devs go through on a daily basis? Nah. Personally, I think an apology would have been the way to go. As it stands now, it seems like something that's going to emboldened the type of people who are deliberately and openly sexist/racist/homophobic, which is the last thing we need in general. I understand why Anet felt like they had to take action, I just think it was too extreme and, to me, it sends the opposite of a comforting message.

> > >

> > > "Deliberately and openly sexist...", u mean like the way she was by playing the sexist card on a male just because he wanted to discuss the topic she started by giving constructive criticism in the most polite way possible and her being unable to take it in a humanly way like every other sane person would or just simply ignoring it ? and then going on a rampage calling him "rando kitten" and saying that there's a lot of "hurt manfeels today" because of the whole fiasco, while also attacking other people who were pointing out her behaviour ? there's such a thing as hypocrisy and it applies here.

> >

> > She was totally on point though. Just look at this thread. Everyone telling her how she should behave. Everyone trembling over the word sexist.

> Most of what we are saying is true though. She has to act professional if she is representing a company that she works for. Sure for some, it is difficult, but they put themselves in that situation the moment that they represented Anet on twitter. If you act immature in a professional environment, it can affect their reputation, marketing and PR. PR has to work a lot whenever a fiasco of this magnitude happens. She's causing her own colleagues to put in overtime work that wouldn't have been there if she just answered professionally. It makes everyone in Anet look very bad. The people who work for Anet are good people, really.

>

 

No, this is a problem with us as consumers/community...we link peoples personal social media with their professional life just because they happen to list their place of employment or discuss something about their job...let me clarify, everyone else has that problem, I don't. I do not automatically assume that what someone posts on their personal social media represents their employers viewpoints just because they list their employer on said social media account, I can grasp the simple reality that it's' their personal social media and what they say on it is their personal views...but nobody else can grasp that simple concept like it was trigonometry or astrophysics or quantum theory, it's not people, it's simple: personal is personal, professional is professional, learn to separate the two and stop lumping them together.

[DaShi.1368]

> @"Ashen.2907" said:

> > @"DaShi.1368" said:

> He post was basically, "I think you're writing sucks. Now smile for me."

>

> This is factually inaccurate.

 

I paraphrased to describe what a woman may feel on the receiving end of his post. I thought that was obvious. I hope it clearer now.

[Morg.5986]

> @"DaShi.1368" said:

> On reaching, that's a fair response. I'm simply stating it as I see it based on my own experiences. I've admitted that Deroir probably didn't intend to come across that way. But when she was pissed about it, rather than going after her, he should have considered what in his post could have elicited that response. Most people don't get mad for no reason.

>

> On the rest of your post, can you elaborate? Not sure I get your meaning.

I don't recall him going after anybody; indeed, I remember him backing off. She and her supporters started laying into him, and then she blew a gasket.

 

He isn't at fault here, from an objective point of view. If that was how she FELT about what was said, that speaks more about the workings of her mind than his.