GW 2 Devs/Playerbase Twitter Discussion

[SepiaBrownie.7504]

> @"DaShi.1368" said:

> While I agree that her posts were a bit much (not enough to be fired over), Deroir was being condescending and rude when he implied that she was overlooking something obvious and stating that that was why her writing is ineffectual. I will buy that his intention was to add to the conversion, but the way he did it was not nice at all. Showing up to someone's private twitter account and trashing their work is really rude.

>

> Neither of them came out clean on this, but at the end of the day, she lost her job and got unprecedented levels of vitriol on these forums.

Re-reading the tweets, I'm still struggling to see how he was rude. It might have been on her personal twitter but, it was available for the public, thus public interaction should be expected. Even more so if you're someone who's known for working on a product. If she really wanted her twitter to be private, she should have made it private. I don't think anet is wrong for expecting her to act professional even on her personal account because again, it was public and she's a known employee for anet. Anyway, I'm agreeing to disagree because I don't see how he was rude, why she felt the need to be so combative, and why she felt the need to make it about gender.

 

[Linken.6345]

> @"DaShi.1368" said:

> > @"Morg.5986" said:

> > > @"DaShi.1368" said:

> > > What exactly are you referring to?

> > In what way is it obvious to see Deroir's alleged condescension? It looks innocent to me.

> >

>

> I can understand that it looks that way to many people, especially to men, who don't have deal with this kind of condescension on a regular basis. The issue is that his response was something pretty basic in her field. Bringing it up as he did implied that she wasn't aware of it and thus not inadequate at her job. As I stated earlier, a better approach would have been to ask, "What about branching dialogue options? Do you think that would improve players' investments in their characters?" This is treating her respectfully and acknowledging her as a professional.

>

> Again, you might say that she is being overly sensitive, but women, especially women in writing and game development, have to deal with this kind of behavior constantly. It's only been fairly recent that they've been able to speak out against it and express their feelings on being treated this way. Despite that, there are many who don't like women doing this and are fighting hard against it. Anet, but firing her, gave those people what they wanted.

 

The thing is it dont matter if this happen to be a woman or a man the respons from Deroir would have been the same.

[Azrielvon.7836]

> @"DaShi.1368" said:

> > @"Ashen.2907" said:

> > > @"DaShi.1368" said:

> > He post was basically, "I think you're writing sucks. Now smile for me."

> >

> > This is factually inaccurate.

>

> I paraphrased to describe what a woman may feel on the receiving end of his post. I thought that was obvious. I hope it clearer now.

 

Isn't this just paranoia (albeit justified according to you)? That does not mean it gives anyone, regardless of gender to be free from repercussion of their actions.

[TheGrimm.5624]

First mistake, Twitter. As a platform it should be deleted, rarely, rarely has anything positive come from Twitter. Can't wait for the platform it self to be hit with the slander lawsuits that closes it down. Could appreciate it as a tool when first released but it has shown time again that having no recourse for actions is s bad idea and its a place to just avoid.

[squallaus.8321]

> @"DaShi.1368" said:

> I paraphrased to describe what a woman may feel on the receiving end of his post. I thought that was obvious. I hope it clearer now.

 

She may feel it's sexist. But nothing can be further from the truth. Claiming the sexism is subliminal doesn't make you look any more rational either.

 

[Shoyoko.7309]

> @"Azrielvon.7836" said:

> > @"Jitsuryoku.9038" said:

> > > @"Azrielvon.7836" said:

> > > I think at this point it is meaningless to try and have a conversation about this. Those who are against Anet's decision are just trying to perform mental gymnastics to try and justify Price's action or did not read previous responses and the same kitten issue is being raised every page or simply making conclusions out of thin air without strong, objective facts or simply trying to 'interpret' something that isn't there. It is not moving forward and is just going to result in Ad Hominem between the 2 sides. I think some have wild guesses on why Fries was fired as well and quite frankly, none of us have actual facts to back up the argument as this is definitely discussed exclusively between Anet.

> >

> > PLEASE! Link those facts! I couldn't find them in that mess of links pointing back and forth!

>

> I do not want to link anything, I don't want to be accused of cherry picking. A good place to start would be the few Reddit threads. Take your time to absorb it.

 

Here you go my lovelies,

http://www.tentonhammer.com/news/guild-wars-2-lurches-to-yet-another-pr-nightmare

<3

[DaShi.1368]

> @"Morg.5986" said:

> > @"DaShi.1368" said:

> > On reaching, that's a fair response. I'm simply stating it as I see it based on my own experiences. I've admitted that Deroir probably didn't intend to come across that way. But when she was pissed about it, rather than going after her, he should have considered what in his post could have elicited that response. Most people don't get mad for no reason.

> >

> > On the rest of your post, can you elaborate? Not sure I get your meaning.

> I don't recall him going after anybody; indeed, I remember him backing off. She and her supporters started laying into him, and then she blew a gasket.

>

> He isn't at fault here, from an objective point of view. If that was how she FELT about what was said, that speaks more about the workings of her mind than his.

>

>

>

 

See, that's the problem. When a woman gets angry, men say that there is something wrong with them. Look up the origin term hysterical. They refuse to look at how they may have contributed to her being angry. They refuse to consider her a rational person.

[kmdziak.1076]

> @"DaShi.1368" said:

> > @"squallaus.8321" said:

> > > @"DaShi.1368" said:

> > > She works for Anet. They don't own her. Deroir had every right to post what he did. It was horrible, but she did have an open conversation. That does not mean that she has to accept that kind of behavior. He post was basically, "I think you're writing sucks. Now smile for me." And a large, toxic group of the fanbase got upset that a woman defended herself and just didn't take the abuse.

> >

> > Go on link Deroir's posts directly where he said "I think you're writing sucks. Now smile for me.".

> >

> > JP directly referrenced her work on GW2 Living World story in her 'private' twitter account that is open to the public view and reply.

>

>

>

>

>

> Also, seriously, his magic solution is branching dialogue? I would have ridiculed him just for that.

 

Do you even see the hypocrisy of your own words ? you get mad at a man for giving constructive criticism (that u call sexist mansplaining) and saying that he insulted JP by not agreeing with her point and being "rude" towards her, yet u'd do exactly the same thing to him, by saying u'd ridicule him for his own opinion, without having a constructive dialogue about the topic.

[DaShi.1368]

> @"Linken.6345" said:

> > @"DaShi.1368" said:

> > > @"Morg.5986" said:

> > > > @"DaShi.1368" said:

> > > > What exactly are you referring to?

> > > In what way is it obvious to see Deroir's alleged condescension? It looks innocent to me.

> > >

> >

> > I can understand that it looks that way to many people, especially to men, who don't have deal with this kind of condescension on a regular basis. The issue is that his response was something pretty basic in her field. Bringing it up as he did implied that she wasn't aware of it and thus not inadequate at her job. As I stated earlier, a better approach would have been to ask, "What about branching dialogue options? Do you think that would improve players' investments in their characters?" This is treating her respectfully and acknowledging her as a professional.

> >

> > Again, you might say that she is being overly sensitive, but women, especially women in writing and game development, have to deal with this kind of behavior constantly. It's only been fairly recent that they've been able to speak out against it and express their feelings on being treated this way. Despite that, there are many who don't like women doing this and are fighting hard against it. Anet, but firing her, gave those people what they wanted.

>

> The thing is it dont matter if this happen to be a woman or a man the respons from Deroir would have been the same.

 

Then he's a jerk. But that he did it to a woman does matter. Men still have more physical, economic, and social power over women. His interactions with her contain a different power dynamic than his interactions with other men.

[Morg.5986]

> @"DaShi.1368" said:

> See, that's the problem. When a woman gets angry, men say that there is something wrong with them. Look up the origin term hysterical. They refuse to look at how they may have contributed to her being angry. They refuse to consider her a rational person.

I understand she was angry. That isn't the point. The point is that she had absolutely no reason to lash out at this dude for some perceived slight. If that were the case, we would all have to walk on eggshells, and I'll be damned if I do that for anyone.

 

Yeah, I read "Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus"; men and women inherently think differently. Acknowledge it and move on, or lash out at the innocent and be a social pariah.

 

[DaShi.1368]

> @"kmdziak.1076" said:

> > @"DaShi.1368" said:

> > > @"squallaus.8321" said:

> > > > @"DaShi.1368" said:

> > > > She works for Anet. They don't own her. Deroir had every right to post what he did. It was horrible, but she did have an open conversation. That does not mean that she has to accept that kind of behavior. He post was basically, "I think you're writing sucks. Now smile for me." And a large, toxic group of the fanbase got upset that a woman defended herself and just didn't take the abuse.

> > >

> > > Go on link Deroir's posts directly where he said "I think you're writing sucks. Now smile for me.".

> > >

> > > JP directly referrenced her work on GW2 Living World story in her 'private' twitter account that is open to the public view and reply.

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > Also, seriously, his magic solution is branching dialogue? I would have ridiculed him just for that.

>

> Do you even see the hypocrisy of your own words ? you get mad at a man for giving constructive criticism (that u call sexist mansplaining) and saying that he insulted JP by not agreeing with her point and being "rude" towards her, yet u'd do exactly the same thing to him, by saying u'd ridicule him for his own opinion, without having a constructive dialogue about the topic.

 

Oh, I'm not denying that I am ridiculing him. If he came here and posted an angry retort, I would not be surprised or offended.

[ChronosCosmos.9450]

> @"Zaklex.6308" said:

> > @"ChronosCosmos.9450" said:

> > > @"DaShi.1368" said:

> > > > @"kmdziak.1076" said:

> > > > > @"Batelle.1680" said:

> > > > > Yeah, I'm kind of on the fence about staying with GW2. Do I think this entire thing was stupid and poorly handled by the persons fired? Yeah. Do I think that the misunderstanding was entirely baseless, given what I know/have seen female devs go through on a daily basis? Nah. Personally, I think an apology would have been the way to go. As it stands now, it seems like something that's going to emboldened the type of people who are deliberately and openly sexist/racist/homophobic, which is the last thing we need in general. I understand why Anet felt like they had to take action, I just think it was too extreme and, to me, it sends the opposite of a comforting message.

> > > >

> > > > "Deliberately and openly sexist...", u mean like the way she was by playing the sexist card on a male just because he wanted to discuss the topic she started by giving constructive criticism in the most polite way possible and her being unable to take it in a humanly way like every other sane person would or just simply ignoring it ? and then going on a rampage calling him "rando kitten" and saying that there's a lot of "hurt manfeels today" because of the whole fiasco, while also attacking other people who were pointing out her behaviour ? there's such a thing as hypocrisy and it applies here.

> > >

> > > She was totally on point though. Just look at this thread. Everyone telling her how she should behave. Everyone trembling over the word sexist.

> > Most of what we are saying is true though. She has to act professional if she is representing a company that she works for. Sure for some, it is difficult, but they put themselves in that situation the moment that they represented Anet on twitter. If you act immature in a professional environment, it can affect their reputation, marketing and PR. PR has to work a lot whenever a fiasco of this magnitude happens. She's causing her own colleagues to put in overtime work that wouldn't have been there if she just answered professionally. It makes everyone in Anet look very bad. The people who work for Anet are good people, really.

> >

>

> No, this is a problem with us as consumers/community...we link peoples personal social media with their professional life just because they happen to list their place of employment or discuss something about their job...let me clarify, everyone else has that problem, I don't. I do not automatically assume that what someone posts on their personal social media represents their employers viewpoints just because they list their employer on said social media account, I can grasp the simple reality that it's' their personal social media and what they say on it is their personal views...but nobody else can grasp that simple concept like it was trigonometry or astrophysics or quantum theory, it's not people, it's simple: personal is personal, professional is professional, learn to separate the two and stop lumping them together.

 

I understand your opinion. People do have the right to personal social media accounts and people should not be harassed because of their associations with their company. With that being said, she made the post public to the public. It would have been a simple solution if they talked to each other privately. Putting customers to shame publicly on any platform goes against most of Anet's rules and what they represent. You're right, not everyone judges another person by what they say, but in general there will be people who take offence to any type of criticism. Jessica even took offence to Deroir, even though it was meant to be constructive, to prove my point. The bottomline is that if you go against company guidelines and rules, there will be consequences. I didn't want to see a punishment of this magnitude as a verbal warning would have been enough, but the scale of the incident was enormous so I also understand why they did what was done. Sure the account could be personal, but they are still representing their company since they listed Anet as their employer.

[Devildoc.6721]

> @"Mike O Brien.4613" said:

> Recently two of our employees failed to uphold our standards of communicating with players. Their attacks on the community were unacceptable. As a result, they’re no longer with the company.

>

> I want to be clear that the statements they made do not reflect the views of ArenaNet at all. As a company we always strive to have a collaborative relationship with the Guild Wars community. We value your input. We make this game for you.

>

> Mo

 

In a way I kinda would have rather seen Miss Price admit that she was wrong to make assumptions on the intentions of the posts (which were to provide constructive feedback and possibly some ideas/help for future content, never assume just because someone's not a professional that they don't have something valuable to contribute when your job is to create something for an audience of amateurs) and apologize, and do feel bad for Mr Fries as he probably just felt compelled to back up a coworker and he didn't quite lash out so badly as Miss Price did, but I can understand if your company policy is to let these people go. Just it can be nice to see people owe up to their mistakes and admit they were wrong, takes a lot of character to swallow your pride and do that.

[DaShi.1368]

> @"Morg.5986" said:

> > @"DaShi.1368" said:

> > See, that's the problem. When a woman gets angry, men say that there is something wrong with them. Look up the origin term hysterical. They refuse to look at how they may have contributed to her being angry. They refuse to consider her a rational person.

> I understand she was angry. That isn't the point. The point is that she had absolutely no reason to lash out at this dude for some perceived slight. If that were the case, we would all have to walk on eggshells, and I'll be damned if I do that for anyone.

>

> Yeah, I read "Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus"; men and women inherently think differently. Acknowledge it and move on, or lash out at the innocent and be a social pariah.

>

 

Actually, she did have a reason to. That goes back to my post about women being able to speak up and react to this more freely now (though not free enough, it seems).

[Azrielvon.7836]

> @"DaShi.1368" said:

> > @"Morg.5986" said:

> > > @"DaShi.1368" said:

> > > See, that's the problem. When a woman gets angry, men say that there is something wrong with them. Look up the origin term hysterical. They refuse to look at how they may have contributed to her being angry. They refuse to consider her a rational person.

> > I understand she was angry. That isn't the point. The point is that she had absolutely no reason to lash out at this dude for some perceived slight. If that were the case, we would all have to walk on eggshells, and I'll be damned if I do that for anyone.

> >

> > Yeah, I read "Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus"; men and women inherently think differently. Acknowledge it and move on, or lash out at the innocent and be a social pariah.

> >

>

> Actually, she did have a reason to. That goes back to my post about women being able to speak up and react to this more freely now (though not free enough, it seems).

 

But when a men speaks freely, it is sexist, when a female speaks freely, it is power. Do you not see a problem with that?

[Ashen.2907]

> @"DaShi.1368" said:

> > @"Ashen.2907" said:

> > > @"DaShi.1368" said:

> > He post was basically, "I think you're writing sucks. Now smile for me."

> >

> > This is factually inaccurate.

>

> I paraphrased to describe what a woman may feel on the receiving end of his post. I thought that was obvious. I hope it clearer now.

 

This is also called falsification.

[DaShi.1368]

> @"Shoyoko.7309" said:

> > @"Azrielvon.7836" said:

> > > @"Jitsuryoku.9038" said:

> > > > @"Azrielvon.7836" said:

> > > > I think at this point it is meaningless to try and have a conversation about this. Those who are against Anet's decision are just trying to perform mental gymnastics to try and justify Price's action or did not read previous responses and the same kitten issue is being raised every page or simply making conclusions out of thin air without strong, objective facts or simply trying to 'interpret' something that isn't there. It is not moving forward and is just going to result in Ad Hominem between the 2 sides. I think some have wild guesses on why Fries was fired as well and quite frankly, none of us have actual facts to back up the argument as this is definitely discussed exclusively between Anet.

> > >

> > > PLEASE! Link those facts! I couldn't find them in that mess of links pointing back and forth!

> >

> > I do not want to link anything, I don't want to be accused of cherry picking. A good place to start would be the few Reddit threads. Take your time to absorb it.

>

> Here you go my lovelies,

> http://www.tentonhammer.com/news/guild-wars-2-lurches-to-yet-another-pr-nightmare

> <3

 

Oh, that's tame. Wow! I thought there something really offensive that I missed.

[slayerking.3581]

> @"DaShi.1368" said:

> > @"Ashen.2907" said:

> > > @"DaShi.1368" said:

> > He post was basically, "I think you're writing sucks. Now smile for me."

> >

> > This is factually inaccurate.

>

> I paraphrased to describe what a woman may feel on the receiving end of his post. I thought that was obvious. I hope it clearer now.

 

Clear as mud! Not one thing said by Deroir was offensive or rude at all. All you are doing is clutching at straws. Whether it was a male or female it was a response to a public post that got a reply totally uncalled for by ANYONE male or female. Instead of offering her professional opinion she went full retard and when you have your employers details out in public view and abuse someone like she did on something about working at that company prepare to be sacked and again male or female.

[Morg.5986]

> @"DaShi.1368" said:

> Actually, she did have a reason to. That goes back to my post about women being able to speak up and react to this more freely now (though not free enough, it seems).

What did he do?

[DaShi.1368]

> @"Azrielvon.7836" said:

> > @"DaShi.1368" said:

> > > @"Morg.5986" said:

> > > > @"DaShi.1368" said:

> > > > See, that's the problem. When a woman gets angry, men say that there is something wrong with them. Look up the origin term hysterical. They refuse to look at how they may have contributed to her being angry. They refuse to consider her a rational person.

> > > I understand she was angry. That isn't the point. The point is that she had absolutely no reason to lash out at this dude for some perceived slight. If that were the case, we would all have to walk on eggshells, and I'll be damned if I do that for anyone.

> > >

> > > Yeah, I read "Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus"; men and women inherently think differently. Acknowledge it and move on, or lash out at the innocent and be a social pariah.

> > >

> >

> > Actually, she did have a reason to. That goes back to my post about women being able to speak up and react to this more freely now (though not free enough, it seems).

>

> But when a men speaks freely, it is sexist, when a female speaks freely, it is power. Do you not see a problem with that?

 

No, that is not the case. Again, he started it, intentionally or not. She responded appropriately at what she reasonable saw as rude.

[squallaus.8321]

> @"DaShi.1368" said:

> > @"squallaus.8321" said:

> > > @"DaShi.1368" said:

> > > > @"squallaus.8321" said:

> > > > > @"DaShi.1368" said:

> > > > > She works for Anet. They don't own her. Deroir had every right to post what he did. It was horrible, but she did have an open conversation. That does not mean that she has to accept that kind of behavior. He post was basically, "I think you're writing sucks. Now smile for me." And a large, toxic group of the fanbase got upset that a woman defended herself and just didn't take the abuse.

> > > >

> > > > Go on link Deroir's posts directly where he said "I think you're writing sucks. Now smile for me.".

> > > >

> > > > JP directly referrenced her work on GW2 Living World story in her 'private' twitter account that is open to the public view and reply.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > Also, seriously, his magic solution is branching dialogue? I would have ridiculed him just for that.

> >

> > Whether Deroir's suggestion is a good one or not is besides the point. JP claiming it to be sexism when it isn't is what annoys people.

>

> People need to get over then.

 

No. Mistreating people because of their gender should not be accepted. Mistreating people claiming that they are sexist when they are not should also not be accepted. Very clearly in this case JP mistreated Deroir claiming he's sexist when he was not because she literally sees everything as sexist.

[DaShi.1368]

> @"Morg.5986" said:

> > @"DaShi.1368" said:

> > Actually, she did have a reason to. That goes back to my post about women being able to speak up and react to this more freely now (though not free enough, it seems).

> What did he do?

 

Go to your first post and read from there.

[DaShi.1368]

> @"squallaus.8321" said:

> > @"DaShi.1368" said:

> > > @"squallaus.8321" said:

> > > > @"DaShi.1368" said:

> > > > > @"squallaus.8321" said:

> > > > > > @"DaShi.1368" said:

> > > > > > She works for Anet. They don't own her. Deroir had every right to post what he did. It was horrible, but she did have an open conversation. That does not mean that she has to accept that kind of behavior. He post was basically, "I think you're writing sucks. Now smile for me." And a large, toxic group of the fanbase got upset that a woman defended herself and just didn't take the abuse.

> > > > >

> > > > > Go on link Deroir's posts directly where he said "I think you're writing sucks. Now smile for me.".

> > > > >

> > > > > JP directly referrenced her work on GW2 Living World story in her 'private' twitter account that is open to the public view and reply.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Also, seriously, his magic solution is branching dialogue? I would have ridiculed him just for that.

> > >

> > > Whether Deroir's suggestion is a good one or not is besides the point. JP claiming it to be sexism when it isn't is what annoys people.

> >

> > People need to get over then.

>

> No. Mistreating people because of their gender should not be accepted. Mistreating people claiming that they are sexist when they are not should also not be accepted. Very clearly in this case JP mistreated Deroir because she literally sees everything as sexist.

 

Prove that.

[Azrielvon.7836]

> @"DaShi.1368" said:

> > @"Azrielvon.7836" said:

> > > @"DaShi.1368" said:

> > > > @"Morg.5986" said:

> > > > > @"DaShi.1368" said:

> > > > > See, that's the problem. When a woman gets angry, men say that there is something wrong with them. Look up the origin term hysterical. They refuse to look at how they may have contributed to her being angry. They refuse to consider her a rational person.

> > > > I understand she was angry. That isn't the point. The point is that she had absolutely no reason to lash out at this dude for some perceived slight. If that were the case, we would all have to walk on eggshells, and I'll be damned if I do that for anyone.

> > > >

> > > > Yeah, I read "Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus"; men and women inherently think differently. Acknowledge it and move on, or lash out at the innocent and be a social pariah.

> > > >

> > >

> > > Actually, she did have a reason to. That goes back to my post about women being able to speak up and react to this more freely now (though not free enough, it seems).

> >

> > But when a men speaks freely, it is sexist, when a female speaks freely, it is power. Do you not see a problem with that?

>

> No, that is not the case. Again, he started it, intentionally or not. She responded appropriately at what she reasonable saw as rude.

 

No, the bottom line is, MOST people agree that her response is NOT APPROPRIATE.

[DaShi.1368]

> @"slayerking.3581" said:

> > @"DaShi.1368" said:

> > > @"Ashen.2907" said:

> > > > @"DaShi.1368" said:

> > > He post was basically, "I think you're writing sucks. Now smile for me."

> > >

> > > This is factually inaccurate.

> >

> > I paraphrased to describe what a woman may feel on the receiving end of his post. I thought that was obvious. I hope it clearer now.

>

> Clear as mud! Not one thing said by Deroir was offensive or rude at all. All you are doing is clutching at straws. Whether it was a male or female it was a response to a public post that got a reply totally uncalled for by ANYONE male or female. Instead of offering her professional opinion she went full kitten and when you have your employers details out in public view and abuse someone like she did on something about working at that company prepare to be sacked and again male or female.

 

Deroir didn't ask for her professional opinion.