Deihnyx.6318 Posted July 8, 2018 Share Posted July 8, 2018 > @"ponytheguardian.7439" said: > > @"Deihnyx.6318" said: > > > So are the 43 pages of people mostly defending Anet all "mobs" and not the players? > > > > Also, you do realize that each account profile shows the date of creation in their profile right? Isn't it a bit strange for someone who just joined to know better who are the players? > > I do know that. With thousands of hours in GW1 and hours in GW2 climbing, I could say I've been around here even before I created this forum account. > > And yes. Angry mobs of players who don't like some certain people or how they talk to their "gods", might go out there and escalate the drama even further to get what they want. Kitten as in GG hasn't gone anywhere. It's only evolved in a way that now it's targeting not only journalistic professionals, but also professionals anywhere. > > And all the members are not even Poorchan-crew. The only people I see escalating the drama are those who refuse to see how one employee's behavior was unnacceptable and try to twist that into somewhat a wrong-doing from an evil community. All these journalistic professionals are failing to represent situation from both angles and instead choose to be one sided. So yeah. Sorry but its a bit easy to blame a community over this. The "wips" like WP are the only one so far actually presenting the problem as it happened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ponytheguardian.7439 Posted July 8, 2018 Share Posted July 8, 2018 > @"Deihnyx.6318" said: > > @"ponytheguardian.7439" said: > > [snip] > > The only people I see escalating the drama are those who refuse to see how one employee's behavior was unnacceptable and try to twist that into somewhat a wrong-doing from an evil community. > All these journalistic professionals are failing to represent situation from both angles and instead choose to be one sided. So yeah. Sorry but its a bit easy to blame a community over this. The "wips" like WP are the only one so far actually presenting the problem as it happened. Haven't actually watched WoodenPotatoes video of it yet... Seen some of the others, though.. *goes to find wp video* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alaskasnowgirl.6047 Posted July 8, 2018 Share Posted July 8, 2018 > @"Harper.4173" said: > > @"Shayne Hawke.9160" said: > > So, is it safe to talk politics? Because I'm going to talk some politics. > > > > I have looked over many tweets surrounding this issue, and by far, the most shocking thing was the perception by Jessica that criticism of her viewpoint was gendered. I couldn't read that out of Deroir's tweets, nor could I read any kind of snark or subtle jab of a personal nature. Maybe I'm not familiar enough with Deroir's other work as a YouTuber. But, this perception (and escalation) by Jessica brought such issues into discussion that it made the situation untenable. Jessica does not strike me as the kind of person who has a good understanding of the modern internet, or is perhaps so arrogant that she does not care. There are many other ways this kind of criticism or feedback could have been addressed, easiest among them to simply ignore it. Perhaps that's cold, and there should be (and is) encouragement for devs to communicate with the player base, but GW2 is a big game, and there's only so much time in a day. Blowing off one more person's response is not going to be a big deal. Even several different impulsive responses would not have caused the kind of stir as the one that had been chosen. Even the "thanks for explaining to me how I do my job" tweet alone would have been nothing for anyone to be riled up about. Bringing gender into the equation was a misstep. > > > > However, that along with Peter's tweet about the difference in his actions or statements depending on whether he is choosing to be unprofessional or professional is an indicator of something more worrisome underneath. Jessica and Peter are likely to have certain political viewpoints that caused them to react to this situation in the way that they did. Their arrogance, ineptitude, or relaxation in this instance shows a viewpoint that, despite O'Brien stating is not representative of ANet (which I agree enough with), says something about where the game is going in development. Politics and values manifest in game design. Anybody who doesn't think this is the case hasn't experienced or seen or heard enough about Living Story Season 1, or hasn't compared some overall differences in design between GW and GW2 and related those differences to the different values they promote (for more on this, read up about how r/K theory applies to modern politics, and then think about how it applies to game design). This event is one more instance of a political viewpoint or set of values that I disagree with being found in unprofessional men and women close to the game's development. The politics of the people who make the games I play used to not matter, but neither I nor the industry's climate are the same as they were ten years ago. Jessica and Peter are almost certainly not the only people at ANet who hold the views they do. They simply were the two who chose to react and be involved in the way they were in this event. > > > > It's hard for me to say that I am pleased with the firing of Jessica or Peter. My response to such comments being made by either person is practically nothing, as I am not surprised by such remarks or reactions coming out of employees of ANet, and I have long ago done exactly what I would do if I figured those ideas were common at the top - I stopped playing GW2, mostly. I haven't bought any of the expansions, haven't bought any gems, and haven't even used the currency exchange to help boost the value of gems and encourage others to buy them. I chose this course of action a long time ago though in response to the game itself taking a direction I was not pleased with. This was all after being a very faithful veteran of GW and eager player of GW2. Even setting all politics aside, I wouldn't be interested in buying into GW2 due to several facets of gameplay not meeting my standards. Actions taken by O'Brien in this instance are positive to me in the sense that it removes two persons whose politics perhaps seeped into design in ways that do not please me, but those design decisions are not erased or reverted in any way, and there are indeed many others who work at ANet who perhaps have similar views causing similar choices in design. I am in no mood to conduct or call for a witch hunt for these views among ANet staff. I simply make my own independent choice to not play on account of those views. It is likely that such a response by others who do actively play GW2, who do actually compose GW2's current player base and are paying customers, is exactly the kind of thing that O'Brien seeks to avoid en masse. Unfortunately for him, whether the decision would have been to stand with Jessica and Peter or to fire them, large groups of people will not be pleased. I trust O'Brien's sincerity in this instance for the reasons he provides for letting those two go, and even though it's not enough to win me back as a regular player or customer, I think that the standard of conduct O'Brien is standing for is good. > > Hit the nail on the head my friend - you're right - games have gotten too political and the politics of those who make them are starting to seep through more and more. > The difference between GW1 and GW2 is night and day in this regard. Wow, very insightful and true! It's an unfortunate double standard in the gaming industry that in a lot of popular franchises a vocal minority has managed to assume positions of power and direct the narrative, while diverse views that don't fit with the progressive ideology are excluded from pretty much any game (with the exception of, perhaps, some FPS games which is no comfort to me since I enjoy MMOs). If there was a MMO that was truly neutral (i.e. no token characters of any kind, no agenda, no bowing down to anyone - just a good story to escape from real life into for an hour or two a day) it would probably be wildly popular. I feel like a lot of people are tired of the constant catering to one worldview, while pretending differing opinions and worldviews do not exist. Kudos to you for standing up for your ideals in gaming. I appreciate ANET looking out for the interest of its customers, and not tolerating rude and sexist behavior, but I do agree that political bias is still an issue there, sadly. 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alaskasnowgirl.6047 Posted July 8, 2018 Share Posted July 8, 2018 > @"fizzypetal.7936" said: > > @"Tolmos.8395" said: > > Here's a really interesting piece of backstory someone posted to reddit that I didn't know. > > > > _"So, this was the last piece of the puzzle I needed to see to understand the whole thing from start to finish (at least from Deroir's point of view)._ > > > > _For those who can't view this clip - Deroir absolute loves Jessica Price. That is not an overstatement. He said that he loves her responses and that "she's the God of kitten AMAs" and that "she gives great answers all the way through and that it's absolutely amazing to read through." This clip was taken before the incident on twitter occurred._ > > > > _So when JP posted her essay on twitter - on a subject that Deroir was interested in (narrative development) and by someone he looked up to and admired because of her thorough, well-crafted and intricate responses in the AMA previously - he saw the chance to engage with her in civil discourse and took it._ > > > > _I sincerely hope that JP does see this clip. She needs to understand that not every fan/gamer/man out there is out specifically to get her or to "mansplain" to her. In fact, she went off on a person who greatly admired her work and her intelligence and just wanted to take the chance to speak with her more about her work in narrative development only to be shut down in a very cruel and unwarranted fashion."_ > > > > > > His response to the situation: https://old.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/8wnkw8/deroirs_response_to_the_incident/ > > This^^^ > > The situation is just so sad. If y'all have not seen this...Deroir talks about his perspective as to what occurred during and after the unfortunate Twitter exchange. Deroir appears genuinely upset the whole situation even occurred and that two people lost their jobs. Deroir makes some very good points with regard to conversational engagement. > > As a woman, I have dealt with the same crap that many of my gender have also dealt with. Frankly, it has, at times, sucked to be a woman as I'm sure many of my gender would agree. I also know that it isn't easy to be a man either, especially in today's world. I try to live with integrity and treat others how I wish to be treated - not how I expect to be treated by others. My expectation meter is set to 0. If kitten happens, I deal with it as and when - I don't go looking for it and I'm not sat around waiting for it. > Life is far easier and happier for me living this way. > > One does have to be a little patient when watching Deroir's video - lots of stops and starts while he finds his words and reads comments. Deroir is Danish and English is not his native language. Skip up to 4:28 It makes the situation all the more sad that it was a dev who he respected and admired. Much respect for Deroir's civility through all of this, especially when the twitter stuff was still going on. He handled everything so professionally. I hope he gained a lot of subs! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cryoguard.7942 Posted July 8, 2018 Share Posted July 8, 2018 > @"Digit.1823" said: > > @"Tris Apollumenon.6435" said: > > It's extremely upsetting to see how willing Anet was to throw employees to the mob -- not only was there absolutely no move to speak out against the detailed, sexually explicit abuse that the employees received, but the employees in question were _fired_? > > > > The massive response to this by Gamergaters already underscored the hostility of this environment. The **official statement** from Mike himself, stating that a single unprofessionally snarky Twitter thread expressing frustration at being habitually belittled = "attacking the community", only makes it clear that in Anet's eyes, whatever "the community" means, I don't count. Playtime, enthusiasm, time spent helping new players, money spent on gems and DLCs -- arguments could be made for any of those as factors toward being in a given community, but in this case it seems like the overriding definition is "Community == I want devs to be INSTANTLY FIRED the first time they make a frustrated comment in public or back up their colleagues". > > > > I was willing to Block And Move On for ages and ages, even as a WvW player having to deal with tons of teamchat trolls and having to do another blockathon every time a new world alliance rolls around. MMO online communities are hard to moderate, and I recognize that. But having this edict come from above, as an official ArenaNet statement from the top guy himself, that's damning. That hurts. > > > > I know the kitten troll types are all too happy for people like me to get out of their games, but like... games are supposed to be fun. This was my _hobby_, not some kind of activist crusade. I'm too old and tired to stick it out to Make A Statement or Fight The Good Fight when even the top authority is saying "You are not welcome here. Harassers and misogynists, _you_ are welcome." More power to those who are determined or thick-skinned enough to persevere. I don't think I can. > > You stop right there you unfair, disingenuous hack that you are. You unbelievable charlatan. > > There was NEVER any sort of "detailed, sexually explicit abuse" anywhere in the ENTIRE exchange from Deroir's side which sparked this fiasco. You have CLEARLY not read a single word of the twitter conversation that instigated this. He was AT ALL TIMES friendly, polite and merely looking for discussion with someone whom he GREATLY respected and admired, and even apologized profusely when Jessica Price blew off her handle against him which was totally uncalled for. There have literally been twitch clips posted of him in this thread where he expresses his immense admiration for Jessica Price, her work and her contribution to AMA's. > > You are the lowest of the low, spouting the utter bs that you just did. Get out of this thread and do some actual research before you even dare to think twice about coming back here you disingenuous liar. Get out! I think you missed the part where they didn't say the sexually explicit abuse came from the streamer. While I personally don't agree with how the situation was handled by Price, the disgusting amount of abuse female developers face was already bad before now, but it's easy to tell from a quick glance at Twitter it has escalated dramatically. Deroir was likely commenting in the wrong place at the wrong time as it were, and the mob of toxic trolls who crawled to the surface to take advantage of that are the real villains here. And the messages being sent to Fries and Price only cements this as the key issue. Granted I don't think your anger-fueled response to someone who was trying to put this into the bigger-picture perspective is... ahem... healthy. In fact, somewhat similar to Price's response to Deroir, though I think there's much more context behind her's than your's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lordhelmos.7623 Posted July 8, 2018 Share Posted July 8, 2018 > @"Tolmos.8395" said: > > @"morrolan.9608" said: > > One thing occurs to me has anyone actually asked Deroir and Inklings what they thought should happen to JP and Peter? > > Deroir actually responded to this and said "nothing". He was really hurt by JP's reaction, but he really looked up to her. And he didn't think Arenanet owed him an apology. He said he felt bullied and generally dismayed, but it was just one more crappy internet interaction and he just wanted to forget about it. He was actually shocked how much crap spiraled out of control from him just saying "I slightly disagree". > > Unfortunately, as another poster said: their opinions on what should happen really don't factor into what a company feels it needs to do to protect its image from the negative connotations of someone making disparaging remarks about its customer's race or gender. You have to remember that in Deroir's initial criticism he said nothing about gender. It was JP that opened that door. She willingly opened up the maw into the abyss of her own volition and jumped in. He can't be blamed for any of that. It was just unfortunate that this action also got Mr. Fries dragged in, who was well intentioned but not well worded. While controversial when it comes to battle of the sexes, I work in the Infosec community -which is largely known as male dominated field. In 2015, about 10% of my field was female populated with even less in management positions. Evidence: https://www.itspmagazine.com/from-the-newsroom/this-is-why-men-should-fight-mightily-to-defeat-the-infosec-gender-gap However, some of the best Infosec individuals who I ever worked with were female. I've worked with a female penetration tester who would could exploit zero day vulnerabilities through 5 layers of firewalls. I've also had a privilege of working with an Infosec prodigy who was a 23 year old CISSP with a master's degree and knew more about network level architecture than almost any other male IT counterpart that has been doing it for 20 years that I've ever met. These were incredibly professional people with high levels of authority. They had direct access to CIOs and made recommendations that changes structures of entire companies. When you are a female prodigy in a male dominated field, you should feel even more empowered because you are that diamond in the rough leading change. How you carry yourself professionally is even more important. If you are unhappy about the inequality in your field (which you should be), and want to initiate change (which you should), there are places to do so but unplanned social media is not the place. There are conferences, tech talks, TED talks, and many places to carry that voice positively and influence even more women to join the field. One of the talented women I knw just passed her OSCP (The hardest pentesting exam on the planet) and is now in a hiring position and is about to onboard 3 more women into the Pentesting field. Make a strong personal statement through your work and professionalism, own the field, then reach back and pull the other people that deserve a chance up with you. This is how good human beings influence change. JP's outburst was not only unprofessional but was a real let down to other talented woman who looked at her position and were saying "yes I can make it there." If you are a minority in a dominated field you have to consider your position and carry yourself as someone who is not only working for themselves, but the community that they want to represent. It is unfortunate that JP forgot about the importance of this and threw herself upon the pitchforks of the angry mob. She should have been above such pettiness. But then again people are human and need channels to vent. Through other such dramas (like Rosanne Barr), people should know that social media outlets are not the place to do this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cryoguard.7942 Posted July 8, 2018 Share Posted July 8, 2018 > @"Deihnyx.6318" said: > > @"ponytheguardian.7439" said: > > > @"Deihnyx.6318" said: > > > > > So are the 43 pages of people mostly defending Anet all "mobs" and not the players? > > > > > > Also, you do realize that each account profile shows the date of creation in their profile right? Isn't it a bit strange for someone who just joined to know better who are the players? > > > > I do know that. With thousands of hours in GW1 and hours in GW2 climbing, I could say I've been around here even before I created this forum account. > > > > And yes. Angry mobs of players who don't like some certain people or how they talk to their "gods", might go out there and escalate the drama even further to get what they want. Kitten as in GG hasn't gone anywhere. It's only evolved in a way that now it's targeting not only journalistic professionals, but also professionals anywhere. > > > > And all the members are not even Poorchan-crew. > > The only people I see escalating the drama are those who refuse to see how one employee's behavior was unnacceptable and try to twist that into somewhat a wrong-doing from an evil community. > All these journalistic professionals are failing to represent situation from both angles and instead choose to be one sided. So yeah. Sorry but its a bit easy to blame a community over this. The "wips" like WP are the only one so far actually presenting the problem as it happened. I would suggest looking into more of the Twitter feeds regarding people outside the initial interaction, and it will give you a brief glimpse into the life of female game developers. The amount of blatantly sexist remarks being made by individuals reveals what these devs deal with constantly and often don't tell us. You don't need access to archives of psychological research to tell that it takes an impact, and this was apparently the breaking point. Sure she could have handled it better. And sure devs get toxic remarks in general. But female game devs definitely get their unfair share of toxic backlash, and oftentimes the criticism is purely based on sex and not even the work they do. As a result, this has really opened up a can of worms that ANet can't close now. All we can hope for is a more established response in the coming days better detailing their thoughts and plans moving forward. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ambush.9420 Posted July 8, 2018 Share Posted July 8, 2018 > @"Cryoguard.7942" said: > > @"Deihnyx.6318" said: > > > @"ponytheguardian.7439" said: > > > > @"Deihnyx.6318" said: > > > > > > > So are the 43 pages of people mostly defending Anet all "mobs" and not the players? > > > > > > > > Also, you do realize that each account profile shows the date of creation in their profile right? Isn't it a bit strange for someone who just joined to know better who are the players? > > > > > > I do know that. With thousands of hours in GW1 and hours in GW2 climbing, I could say I've been around here even before I created this forum account. > > > > > > And yes. Angry mobs of players who don't like some certain people or how they talk to their "gods", might go out there and escalate the drama even further to get what they want. Kitten as in GG hasn't gone anywhere. It's only evolved in a way that now it's targeting not only journalistic professionals, but also professionals anywhere. > > > > > > And all the members are not even Poorchan-crew. > > > > The only people I see escalating the drama are those who refuse to see how one employee's behavior was unnacceptable and try to twist that into somewhat a wrong-doing from an evil community. > > All these journalistic professionals are failing to represent situation from both angles and instead choose to be one sided. So yeah. Sorry but its a bit easy to blame a community over this. The "wips" like WP are the only one so far actually presenting the problem as it happened. > As a result, this has really opened up a can of worms that ANet can't close now. All we can hope for is a more established response in the coming days better detailing their thoughts and plans moving forward. Except it really hasn't. Look around, the discussion for this is pretty much dead. Almost everyone accepts what happened, and is completely fine with it. Look on Reddit, even look on these forums.. the discussion is mostly over. Only thing keeping it going is a handful (at best) leftist trolls. Give it 1 or 2 more days, and even most of them will stop. It's over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alaskasnowgirl.6047 Posted July 8, 2018 Share Posted July 8, 2018 > @"Cylokin.2560" said: > It is understandable coming from JP, she is deluded, terrible human and knows no better, but I am surprised by all the people defending her act...humanity is actually regressing unfortunately. From what I've personally observed, people defending her mostly weren't here before the situation was covered by some gaming journalists who did not do their due diligence in covering the situation in a neutral fashion. At least one article I can think of quotes JP's emails to them at several points and even tries to justify her tweets.. Most of the people defending her are also new to the forum. I think a lot of people read about this situation on these biased gaming news sites and then came here to push a narrative. Most of the GW2 player base I have spoken with about this on the forums, whether or not we saw eye to eye or agreed with the outcome, agreed that the actions JP took were not defensible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fizzypetal.7936 Posted July 8, 2018 Share Posted July 8, 2018 > @"lordhelmos.7623" said: > > @"Tolmos.8395" said: > > > @"morrolan.9608" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > ....When you are a female prodigy in a male dominated field, you should feel even more empowered because you are that diamond in the rough leading change. How you carry yourself professionally is even more important. If you are unhappy about the inequality in your field (which you should be), and want to initiate change (which you should), there are places to do so but unplanned social media is not the place. > > ..... Make a strong personal statement through your work and professionalism, own the field, then reach back and pull the other people that deserve a chance up with you. This is how good human beings influence change. > > .....If you are a minority in a dominated field you have to consider your position and carry yourself as someone who is not only working for themselves, but the community that they want to represent. > > But then again people are human and need channels to vent. Through other such dramas (like Rosanne Barr), people should know that social media outlets are not the place to do this. Powerful take-aways within your post. Thank you for sharing your thoughts. :) <3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evon Skyfyre.9673 Posted July 8, 2018 Share Posted July 8, 2018 I wonder, can/do companies actually write policy to govern an employees personal social media? I ask because I have seen way worse offences on LinkedIn from supposed VP's etc of various companies using language that shows they have little respect for anyone, especially public perception of themselves. So the question is, what (if any) is spelled out in Anet's code of conduct, regarding Social Media? Can they prohibit any reference, label or use of the company name or employment status on "Personal" social media accounts? Would a proviso of "Thoughts and musings voiced here are my own and do not reflect those of...". Note: I have worked on creating and designing commercial message board software since the late 90's. And to be honest I always wondered why companies use them. Their answer is "It's a community driven FAQ". Yeah that rarely happens. I am not blaming the users, they see it as a conduit to the companies, or individuals that they want to reach. All this upset could have been avoided if Devs here used personas, and kept work and private separate. I get they are proud of their work and love gaming, so why not interact? I wish we lived in that world. God I wish we did. My wish now is this thread dies. And those released are working soon and loving their new positions. After 15 years of online gaming, my view has been influenced, but hopefully not biased. I know some game devs, and I made the mistakes of thinking I had a new way for things to work. Thankfully they were patient, but showing me the door would have been completely understandable. FWIW, I'm almost 60 *cringe* and "I learn more and more about less and less, until one day I will know absolutely everything about nothing". A employer of mine taught me that phrase, he was a nuclear phys. And his creds were ominous. But a more humble man I never met. Excuse the ramblings, hazard of age. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawdler.8521 Posted July 8, 2018 Share Posted July 8, 2018 > @"morrolan.9608" said: > > @"Dawdler.8521" said: > > Not to mention the tripling down on the story by selling it to game journalists that gobble it up for kitten headlines and controversy. > > What is the proof she was paid for the story? I think its far more likely the media simply approached her for comment. > > As for Deroir after listening to his twitch he clearly regrets Peter's firing. I apologize for the confusing words. I didnt mean selling it as in trading for cash, I meant as in selling the narrative to the media that buy it without question, if you get my meaning. Has any of the media coverage ever mentioned that she is sorry she reacted so wrong and wanted to apologize to Deroir? Has she even done that? No I dont think so, they're just going on about the narrative of harassment and sexism (if she has apologized in any media story anywhere, please do correct me because I'm not really keeping track of it - I dont really care, I just enjoy the game). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bandlero.6312 Posted July 8, 2018 Share Posted July 8, 2018 > @"Deihnyx.6318" said: > > @"Nemmar.8491" said: > > > @"Zaklex.6308" said: > > > > @"Loukious.7346" said: > > > > > @"Ace Kenshader.1253" said: > > > > > > @"Julischka Bean.7491" said: > > > > > > > @"Ace Kenshader.1253" said: > > > > > > > > @"TheNecrosanct.4028" said: > > > > > > > > I am wondering whether all the people who find JP's firing an overreaction have actually built up careers. A simple Google search on "fired because of social media" gives you a slew of examples. People fired because of inappropriate posts, racist posts, misplaced jokes, posts unrelated to their work on social media accounts and on accounts not tied to their employer. This really is not a strange or outrageous phenomenon, but an obvious one for any of us who have careers. Of course, when you display your employment on your account and post your official work there as well, the connection is a no-brainer, as are the consequences for negative and socially unacceptable behavior, and even beliefs. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Claims of "having the right to sue for wrongful termination" in the case of PF I also don't understand. What do these people know of the internal goings on at ANet's office that the rest of us don't? How are they privvy to this non-public information? How do they know all the steps taken? How do they know ANet hasn't offered both of them to make an apology, and how do they know how either JP or PF responded? If you also don't understand the dangerous legal position ANet would place themselves in if they had fired only JP and not PF, in a case where sexism was used in an accusatory fashion, you are not as knowledgeable about these topics as you think you are. JP legally can't use the sexism card against her former employer anymore, because they fired both a man and a woman over this incident. She can claim it in the media, but legally she doesn't have a foot to stand on with that argument. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Just stop making claims based on assumptions, for which you need information none of us are privvy to because we don't work at ANet. We don't know all the details, we don't have copies of any internal documentation regarding this case, we don't have copies of ANet's contract of employment, we don't know what legal counsel they have received (though people with a legal background, especially in employment, would know these things). Yet people still make claims that can only be made by actually having all this information. And I'm pretty sure they don't have it, any of it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Claims about an alt-right mob are even more ludicrous, if people had even done their homework. Before MO made his announcement, there was very little alt-right trolling, mob mentality or baying going on. It may have increased after his announcement, but it's typical alt-right behavior to spot a situation they can benefit from and jump in and make claims about it, or even appropriate it. Lumping all reasonable and well thought out responses taking a stand against JP's behavior together with the baying trolls is doing a disservice, it's dumb and incredibly transparent. By putting the emphasis on that you're giving them more power than they have. They're trying to incite the mob mentality where there is none and to a certain extent their tactic has worked. Let's not give them the satisfaction and give them more power and influence. JP's behavoir against a customer and official partner to ANet is unacceptable, PF publicly taking a stand with her was a mistake on his part, and public opinion is very much a factor, whether we like it or not. Without the public, most companies do not survive. Without the public, most of us wouldn't have a job. So their perception is important and should always be considered from a business point of view. It's easy to make this personal, or even ideological, while at its core it's just business and public image. Social media is not private and if you actively espouse your employer and talk about your work on such a platform, it's neither private nor personal. It is the weakest excuse in this situation, and both JP and PF know this, whether they want to admit it or not. I really don't believe either of them would be this naïve. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Edit: grammar > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The problem is the hypocrisy. After all the folks who cheered that JP was fired are also the same people who cried and protested when Subnautica fired one of their developers for stupid stuff he said on his own twitter post. No matter how one slices it, it's an alt-right mob. > > > > > > > > > > > > I know nothing about Subnautica. Jessica did not say just stupid stuff, she was meaner than a rattlesnake...and toward her company's customers. alt-right..,sheesh. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I saw the twitter thread, and honestly, both sides were acting like dummies (I wanna say something meaner, but alas, forum rules). Deroir was pretty much acting condescending and douchey. > > > > > > > > I think I need my glasses checked at the VA. Cause I have ZERO clue where you got that from ANY of his tweets towards her through this entire thing > > > > > > His last tweet to her is completely condescending, just read it, but it most likely extends from the fact that English is not his native language, so he might not know the nuances of writing to avoid sounding condescending. > > > > You mean when he APOLOGIZES (even though he was nothing but polite)? Yes, how dare he be condescending like that! He should have jumped off a cliff in repentance. > > Cmon... she has already lashed out at him and he still apologized and walked away. She kept going at it. There is absolutely no way you can pin this on him. > > > > Nah. It's alt-right because... because! Because he's a jerk so... it's alt-right. Sheesh! > Sarcasm off... I don't know if people realize that pulling the alt-right card for no reason in the current political context is actually very offensive for all the people/minorities actually suffering from the real alt-right, from real discrimination. Not just offensive actually, but it contributes to people not taking real issues seriously. You can thank kotaku and others for that. > > Even if he had been rude, which he was not, being rude doesnt make you alt-right. People quite often, too, confuse the Alt-Left for the Alt-Right; two mirrored ends of a spectrum that are only different in their opposition or acceptance of sexual orientations and gendering but share other common bigotries, Anti-Semitisms, and Anglo/Euro-centric views. What we had was a dev that was espousing Alt-Left oriented views and bigotries; so because someone disagreed that person in disagreement must have been Alt-Right. Sexism, Racism, Genderism, and Bigotry (etc.) are abhorrent and wrong; even more so when coming from an individual or political view that pretends and claims to be against discrimination. Too many people think the mantra "fight bigotry with bigotry" is okay; they become the bigot. Anyone who would defend bigotry, themselves, become bigots. A Sexism Apologist is just as bad as a Sexism Denier or Practitioner. ArenaNet did the right thing in eliminating both employees. A company, and its employees, should remain as gender, race, religion, creed, orientation, lifestyle, and political (etc.) neutral as possible (if they want to earn as much money as possible.) Too often companies are too willing to jump on bandwagons these days to cash-in on cause célèbre (hashtags) to make a quick buck. In our spasmodic, bi-polar Society, bandwagons are smart to avoid if you want to stick around. Too many people under the age of X think its okay to put every thought and every minute of their life on the internet; and there should be no consequences. Unfortunately, even a firing won't teach these people the value of self-censorship and self-governance. Likely, these people will just bemoan their self-perceived victimhood and seek out a like-oriented pity-party and waste untold hours trying to further their fantastical martyrdom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashen.2907 Posted July 8, 2018 Share Posted July 8, 2018 > @"Harper.4173" said: > > @"Tolmos.8395" said: > > > @"Harper.4173" said: > > > It's extremely upsetting to see how willing people are to make new accounts and post only to push an agenda. Still - I will respond to you. > > > > Sweet, so we're now comparing forum ages and post histories to see who is most worthy of posting? You talk big for someone whose help upvote count is only in the mid-200s, greenhorn! > > > > This is the forum equivalent to "lol noob isn't even max level. Her opinion is moot". I have a better idea: how about we not try to be the elitist little kitten the world thinks all gamers are, and just have a civilized discussion WITHOUT the e-kitten comparing. :) > > You haven't noticed the amount of posters that weren't here before and came here just to push an agenda? > Add them in game - look up their AP score. You'll find some fun things. There's a clear difference between me and them. Calling me greenhorn is silly. You are doing it to prove a point but still - it's silly. > I've been with this game since release, with the franchise since 2008. I've posted suggestions back in the day when they took suggestions for GW2. I've spent more hours on the old forums than anyone should have. There are no records of that anymore. I've got 6k hours on the game and until this year I rarely skipped a day without logging in. > I can prove this to you any way you want. Can they? > As much as you'd like to believe it's not so - I'm not extreme in my views - but you can't just hop on here without ever playing the game, without ever posting before and start going "I'm part of the community and this and that". You're not. > > This is not about being elitist. This is about people infiltrating the forums and trying to seem like they are part of a community they care about when in truth they're just ideologues who came here to fight for their cause and care nothing for GW2. > > This is a civilized discussion regarding the GW2 game and the developers/company making it. It is not a political discussion on its own. These are the forums for a GAME. If you want to come here and have your voice heard as part of the community **you should have some - at least a shred of proof you are part of that community** Honest question here: Do you think that people are buying copies of the game, supporting ANet financially, just to comment on this topic? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragon.4032 Posted July 8, 2018 Share Posted July 8, 2018 > @"Loli Ruri.8307" said: > > @"Dragon.4032" said: > > > @"Mike O Brien.4613" said: > > > Recently two of our employees failed to uphold our standards of communicating with players. Their attacks on the community were unacceptable. As a result, they’re no longer with the company. > > > > > > I want to be clear that the statements they made do not reflect the views of ArenaNet at all. As a company we always strive to have a collaborative relationship with the Guild Wars community. We value your input. We make this game for you. > > > > > > Mo > > > > You have done poorly by firing the two employees who had contributed into making this game possible. It was rash, inappropriate and one sided. Clearly ArenaNet failed to take in considerations whatever that might have been upsetting for Jessica in her work environment. The consequence of this insensitive decision will likely come to affect the game community. I didn't respect your manner in handling this situation. > There are others to replace 'em. Welcome to game development. Yea, what you are saying is they were expendable, and as long as they got paid at the end of the month their attachment with Anet meant nothing more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bandlero.6312 Posted July 8, 2018 Share Posted July 8, 2018 > @"Deihnyx.6318" said: > > @"ponytheguardian.7439" said: > > > @"Deihnyx.6318" said: > > > > > So are the 43 pages of people mostly defending Anet all "mobs" and not the players? > > > > > > Also, you do realize that each account profile shows the date of creation in their profile right? Isn't it a bit strange for someone who just joined to know better who are the players? > > > > I do know that. With thousands of hours in GW1 and hours in GW2 climbing, I could say I've been around here even before I created this forum account. > > > > And yes. Angry mobs of players who don't like some certain people or how they talk to their "gods", might go out there and escalate the drama even further to get what they want. Kitten as in GG hasn't gone anywhere. It's only evolved in a way that now it's targeting not only journalistic professionals, but also professionals anywhere. > > > > And all the members are not even Poorchan-crew. > > The only people I see escalating the drama are those who refuse to see how one employee's behavior was unnacceptable and try to twist that into somewhat a wrong-doing from an evil community. > All these journalistic professionals are failing to represent situation from both angles and instead choose to be one sided. So yeah. Sorry but its a bit easy to blame a community over this. The "wips" like WP are the only one so far actually presenting the problem as it happened. Essentially, it's all "Fake News." The difference between the two vocal minorities of the "evil community" and these "journalists" is that the community only has forums as platforms to voice their opinions. These "journalists," on the other hand, have websites and other more visible means to push their political ideologies to drown out the community. Also, a lot of these game devs for other games, and these "journalists," are starting to push a message that the customer is NOT right. They are trying to push a narrative that customers - the communities - should not be appeased and made happy. They are degrading and belittling the concerns of communities by calling the communities "vocal minorities" and "mobs." Money talks. If these devs and companies want to remain employed and make money off their art, they must appease their patrons. The communities' whims matter more than the employees'. That is, if you want to make money and not be holding a starving-artist sale in a Kmart parking lot under a tent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragon.4032 Posted July 8, 2018 Share Posted July 8, 2018 > @"Ephemiel.5694" said: > > @"Dragon.4032" said: > > > @"Mike O Brien.4613" said: > > > Recently two of our employees failed to uphold our standards of communicating with players. Their attacks on the community were unacceptable. As a result, they’re no longer with the company. > > > > > > I want to be clear that the statements they made do not reflect the views of ArenaNet at all. As a company we always strive to have a collaborative relationship with the Guild Wars community. We value your input. We make this game for you. > > > > > > Mo > > > > You have done poorly by firing the two employees who had contributed into making this game possible. It was rash, inappropriate and one sided. Clearly ArenaNet failed to take in considerations whatever that might have been upsetting for Jessica in her work environment. The consequence of this insensitive decision will likely come to affect the game community. I didn't respect your manner in handling this situation. > > JP was only a writer for less than a year, what are you talking about? > > Also, REALLY? You have the guts to say that ANet is to blame for not taking in considerations? DO YOU KNOW WHO SHE IS? Do you know what she has said? > > What the heck is this obsession with defending that woman? She's a monster that's happy that a man died of cancer, she's an insane social justice berserker that drops the "sexist" card every single time someone realizes she made a mistake or has an opinion different to hers. "Only a writer for less than a year". So that's how you think Anet should be maintaining their policy with the employees? In fact I'm seeing more than that, when Fries got fired for sharing his opinions in defense of his fellow colleague, and his involvement with Anet for 12 years meant nothing whatsoever. It's a flawed decision to fire any of them, almost like knee jerk reaction to a situation. It wasn't properly thought out and didn't leave a room for any kind of understanding. And people like you seem already poised against Jessica for whatever reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zedek.8932 Posted July 8, 2018 Share Posted July 8, 2018 > @"Deihnyx.6318" said: > I'm sorry, I just can't believe that for a second. What happened was serious enough to potentially damage a company and no country that want to keep its companies "there" will forbid them to take action. > It's sad really cause recent living story episodes were great but that's how it is now I guess... Okay, if you can't believe it, here you go: I just pick something off the internet to show how it works, with a very similar case in Germany: A polish guy that works as truck driver in Germany and that has been 14 years with the company has been fired because he posted a picture of the concentration camp Auschwitz and added: "Poland is ready to welcome refugees". He's been seen on other pictures and post that he works as driver for said company and the profession. The employer instantly fired him and the guy removed the posts and apologied but still he's being terminated because of that and the negative publicity it can/could create. The labour court of Mannheim however nullified the termination. They agreed that it was more satire than harmful but posting it on Facebook is basically available to everyone, and that includes clients of the truck company. However, it was not necessary to fire the driver over it. A disclipinary measure would've been deemed enough and the past 14 years in the company without any problem is a sign for that. The instant and the "regular" (scheduled) termination would've been illegal. He can still get removed off the company, but just with compensation and just if he agrees. (In German: https://anwalt-kg.de/newsbeitrag/arbeitsrecht/kuendigung-wegen-facebook-posts-die-gefahren-von-social-media/) Excelsior. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimheart.2853 Posted July 8, 2018 Share Posted July 8, 2018 > @"morrolan.9608" said: > Blog from Askagamedev on this: > http://askagamedev.tumblr.com/post/175612487241/what-do-you-think-about-the-recent-arenanet-dev > Tumblr being tumblr again. The crappy little gifs inbetween add some extra cringe as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paintpixie.7398 Posted July 8, 2018 Share Posted July 8, 2018 > @"Zedek.8932" said: > > @"Deihnyx.6318" said: > > I'm sorry, I just can't believe that for a second. What happened was serious enough to potentially damage a company and no country that want to keep its companies "there" will forbid them to take action. > > It's sad really cause recent living story episodes were great but that's how it is now I guess... > > Okay, if you can't believe it, here you go: > I just pick something off the internet to show how it works, with a very similar case in Germany: > > A polish guy that works as truck driver in Germany and that has been 14 years with the company has been fired because he posted a picture of the concentration camp Auschwitz and added: "Poland is ready to welcome refugees". He's been seen on other pictures and post that he works as driver for said company and the profession. The employer instantly fired him and the guy removed the posts and apologied but still he's being terminated because of that and the negative publicity it can/could create. > > The labour court of Mannheim however nullified the termination. They agreed that it was more satire than harmful but posting it on Facebook is basically available to everyone, and that includes clients of the truck company. However, it was not necessary to fire the driver over it. A disclipinary measure would've been deemed enough and the past 14 years in the company without any problem is a sign for that. The instant and the "regular" (scheduled) termination would've been illegal. > > He can still get removed off the company, but just with compensation and just if he agrees. > > (In German: https://anwalt-kg.de/newsbeitrag/arbeitsrecht/kuendigung-wegen-facebook-posts-die-gefahren-von-social-media/) > > Excelsior. > > I wouldn't want to work for a company that fired me. If they were forced to rehire me, I would find another job as quickly as I could and then quit. I couldn't even imagine the tension. And I wouldn't want to be a business that was forced to keep on employees that I didn't want either. That sounds like hell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheOrlyFactor.8341 Posted July 8, 2018 Share Posted July 8, 2018 I know that the horse is not just dead but a greasy spot on the ground now from being beaten so much, but YongYea did two excellent videos on this issue. I'd say that he did a better job of covering this than even WoodenPotatoes did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawdler.8521 Posted July 8, 2018 Share Posted July 8, 2018 > @"Zedek.8932" said: > He can still get removed off the company, but just with compensation and just if he agrees. Pretty sure he can be removed even if he disagrees. What's he gonna do otherwise? Keep working after they they fired him and refuse to stop? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cryoguard.7942 Posted July 8, 2018 Share Posted July 8, 2018 > @"Ambush.9420" said: > > Except it really hasn't. Look around, the discussion for this is pretty much dead. Almost everyone accepts what happened, and is completely fine with it. Look on Reddit, even look on these forums.. the discussion is mostly over. > > Only thing keeping it going is a handful (at best) leftist trolls. > > Give it 1 or 2 more days, and even most of them will stop. > > It's over. > This particular event perhaps. But the ongoing discussion of how devs should approach toxic players isn't ending anytime soon. It's not a new discussion in gaming, nor is it a unique discussion to ArenaNet. The issue that needs to be considered going forward is balancing dev-player interactions fairly. Players shouldn't walk all over devs, nor should devs abuse their customers. Regardless, topics like this are worth keeping an eye on and learning from to move forward. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zushada.6108 Posted July 8, 2018 Share Posted July 8, 2018 _Please read the following with an open mind and open heart. I live in a different country where things work differently. I had refrained from commenting because I am the unpopular opinion. However, I had to post because I think my thoughts actually give perspective._ There seems to be a trend in corporate North America that is deeply disturbing. It is called the "Corporate Gag Order" and it entails public and private corporations issuing "Social Media policies" that essentially dictate employees voices/opinions when they are not at work. Corporations seem to think that they have the power to dictate what their staff can or cannot speak out against and/or what their staff does in their personal lives. This is wrong and corporations shouldn't have the power to control the commentary of an off-duty developer who was using her own private twitter -- especially when no-where in the thread did she mention Anet specifically. Yes, there has to be balance and their can't be illegal or hate related messaging (all that which falls under law and common sense) but what gives the corporation the right to dictate and then discipline someone for their behaviour on private time? There also needs to be boundaries and rules in place to protect the employees from reprimand because too many corporations are abusing the power of social media to make cases against "difficult staff." All of the people who are happy these two got fired, really need to pause and reflect and consider the following: _Ask yourself:_ When is the corporation ever found guilty for the beliefs and actions of a staff member who is off duty? -- never How many terrible people have worked in corporations across the world and gone to jail? With the exception of fraudulent business transactions or corporate crimes, no corporation has ever been held accountable for an employee's personal life (e.g. Billy Bob got drunk; robbed a gas station). The corporation is not responsible for the employee after hours and therefore never has to be accountable. _Next ask yourself:_ If corporations are not responsible for (or too) employees after hours, then why is it acceptable that corporations dictate that their staff are responsible to the corporation after hours? We must also ask ourselves who has any right to decide how another human lives or speaks and to what platform they use? In this case, was she punchy and irrational? Yes, was it inappropriate? Yes. Did she deserve to get fired? No, not at all. _Next consider circumstance and different scenarios:_ What if JP had posted commentary about a totally different topic or something not related to the gaming community e.g. the Christian Bible or the formatting and writing style of Led Zepplin lyrics and someone disagreed with her and she lashed out. Would the community freak out over a difference of opinion; the use of crummy online etiquette and then start calling for her dismissal? I don't think so. In fact, it would have been a null issue that never would have been discussed. This was, essentially the modern day version of a public lynching. I am sorry if people find this expression disrespectful but the community made this a nightmare for any corporation to deal with. The community played detective and dug up old tweets and vilified JP. Anet then decided that the feedback from third party social media, incl those outside the gaming community, and was more concerned about the corporate image than they were about the livelihoods and privacy rights of two of their staff. The result was a terribly misguided knee jerk reaction that landed JP and PF out the door. In my opinion, the reaction of the community and corporate response was more damaging to their corporate image than anything said on twitter. At worst, JP should have been called into discuss what happened and why she was so deeply frustrated. Perhaps counselling needed to be offered and a direct apology to the person involved -- but she does not owe the community an apology for being herself in her off hours. _With regards to PF:_ He did NOT deserve to be fired! That was just wrongful dismissal (as they say in my country). Ok perhaps he shouldn't have dawned the beer induced super-hero cape and tried to mitigate a deteriorating situation -- but on the other hand, why can't he? Why does the community and corporation care that he actually spoke the truth respectfully. In my opinion, Anet owes him a thank you for turning the focus off of JP for a while and presenting a professional and respectful response. He took the fall for being a good co-worker. He demonstrated what being on a team truly means and in my opinion, he deserved kudos rather than firing. _Let me be clear in my thoughts here:_ The community made this happen. I have seen a lot of outrageous behaviour in the gaming community over the last 10 years, but I have never been so utterly dismayed as I have been this week. Sure it shows the power of multiple voices, but it most certainly didn't show the power of those voices for good. In an interview JP indicated she got what I call "dad shamed" about ruining a good situation. Here is the thing, she didn't. The community did. The community decided to look at her PERSONAL twitter feed and use every single tweet they could find to make a lynching case against her and Anet no choice but to buy-in like puppies after a biscuit. The community caused 2 people to lose their livelihoods -- the community took it upon themselves to call for the firing of JP without realising the ramifications for their actions. Because of this, two people lost benefits, they will lose savings and they will struggle financially moving forward. Anet did a huge disservice to their internal community by looking at Peter and saying essentially, "you understand, it's all business and someone has to take the fall." So the next time someone wants to post a hate thread about an Anet employee consider the following: * Consider that there is a human at the other side of the computer and the impact of your reactions is real and will be felt for years. * Consider that privacy should be respected and a lot of issues and arguments would be mitigated if someone simply asked "are you just sharing your own thoughts or are you looking for feedback/discussion. * As i said on the first thread that got locked -- this wasn't the community's business to get involved in, and it was best left alone. The real discussion is the lack of segregation between personal and corporate communications and corporate policies dictating far too much about personal communications (think church and state here). In this case, it was personal communications that the community made corporate and the outcome has been disastrous for all parties involved. I am going back to talking about gaming now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manasa Devi.7958 Posted July 8, 2018 Share Posted July 8, 2018 > @"Zushada.6108" said: > The real discussion is the lack of segregation between personal and corporate communications and corporate policies dictating far too much about personal communications (think church and state here). In this case, it was personal communications that the community made corporate and the outcome has been disastrous for all parties involved. > > I am going back to talking about gaming now. She made it corporate. She tags herself as an ArenaNet employee, and she was actually talking about her job when this went down. When you do that, you're planting one foot firmly into the office, even if it's your time off. Do you think the casual reader who is somehow directed to her tweets makes the distinction between corporate and personal? Doing something like this on a personal account or on an actual corporate account makes no difference at all in how people perceive it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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