Obtena.7952 Posted August 5, 2018 Share Posted August 5, 2018 Let's get back to the topic shall we ... this isn't about how DPS is a big deal in raids or if you think I do raids or not. I won't debate that more DPS is beneficial because it obviously is ... that's NOT what we are discussing here. It's about the misconception that classes need to meet some player-determined threshold for damage to even join a raid. That's clearly false. It's also about the misconception that players can't be successful if they don't play meta classes in raids, or use the meta builds. That's also false. Players raid with non-meta classes and comps and succeed all the time ... so what's your excuse? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barnabus Stinson.1409 Posted August 5, 2018 Share Posted August 5, 2018 > @"Obtena.7952" said: > Let's get back to the topic shall we ... this isn't about how DPS is a big deal in raids or if you think I do raids or not. > > I won't debate that more DPS is beneficial because it obviously is ... that's NOT what we are discussing here. It's about the misconception that classes need to meet some player-determined threshold for damage to even join a raid. That's clearly false. It's also about the misconception that players can't be successful if they don't play meta classes in raids, or use the meta builds. That's also false. Players raid with non-meta classes and comps and succeed all the time ... so what's your excuse? Reductio ad absurdum time: You are doing a Fractal, Raid or any group content where your success depends on others as well as yourself. You keep failing, you just cant do it as a group. When thinking why it hits you...The character who is half naked and other half in blues. Are you happy and supportive of their choice? I am prepared to bet not, you would kick them cause they are making it harder for you, arent achieving what they need to. If not and you are prepared to just keep trying over and over with near gaurenteed failure then you are the most patient of person. But again I bet not, so you have just excluded someone cause their arent successful enough.... Scale this back to no extreme terms and that person who is running Nomad Rogue is dong the same thing, making it harder on their team and will probably end up kicked. And sure it sucks for that guy, but also he is kinda expecting his party to carry him, and in a pug setting, without people being happy to play with the handicap its pretty selfish of him to expect people to play twice as long for the content to carry him. Now we look at the Necro, Better than it was, 100% will give you that. We are not pre HoT. But still this class is outdone on nearly everything by most other classes. So there is a disadvantage to brining it. And in this case its not choice by the player to play a build that doesnt do what is needed, the Devs have set a hard limit on you can at best only be this good as someone playing another. And so when people drop you for not wanting to have to 'carry' you (which is still perfectly justified, not ideal, but justified as people have limited time). It now REALLY SUCKS cause this want a players choice, Its a hard cap that shouldnt exist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swamurabi.7890 Posted August 5, 2018 Share Posted August 5, 2018 > @"Obtena.7952" said: > Let's get back to the topic shall we ... this isn't about how DPS is a big deal in raids or if you think I do raids or not. > > I won't debate that more DPS is beneficial because it obviously is ... that's NOT what we are discussing here. It's about the misconception that classes need to meet some player-determined threshold for damage to even join a raid. That's clearly false. It's also about the misconception that players can't be successful if they don't play meta classes in raids, or use the meta builds. That's also false. Players raid with non-meta classes and comps and succeed all the time ... so what's your excuse? Do you have a channel where you can show the entire Necro community your uninterupted stream of successfully joining raids as a Necro and completing them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dadnir.5038 Posted August 5, 2018 Share Posted August 5, 2018 > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > @"Taqe.1342" said: > > If all of this don't matter, then why you have such problem with buffs to necro? > > I don't have a problem with buffs to necro. I have a problem with people pushing meta in a game where you don't need to play meta to succeed. The idea that Necro gets 'meta DPS' to become meta is nonsense to begin with; Meta isn't something that's planned; it's based on optimized play. Why would giving Necro meta-level DPS optimize play in any way? The idea is not that the necromancer get meta dps, the idea is that all professions end up with the same dps potential so that there is no meta profession in regard of dps. For there to be no meta profession in regard of dps you absolutely need professions to all have the same range of dps potential. And the necromancer clearly don't fit this requirement, thus the constant plea to increase necromancer's dps to other's professions level. So giving necromancer meta level of dps just mean bringing him up to par with other and breaking the meta since as soon as all profession have the same dps, there is no longer a meta dps, only a choice amongst professions. The goal is not to be the profession taken in raids, the goal is to have the same chance to be taken in raid than the other professions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axl.8924 Posted August 5, 2018 Share Posted August 5, 2018 > @"Dadnir.5038" said: > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > @"Taqe.1342" said: > > > If all of this don't matter, then why you have such problem with buffs to necro? > > > > I don't have a problem with buffs to necro. I have a problem with people pushing meta in a game where you don't need to play meta to succeed. The idea that Necro gets 'meta DPS' to become meta is nonsense to begin with; Meta isn't something that's planned; it's based on optimized play. Why would giving Necro meta-level DPS optimize play in any way? > > The idea is not that the necromancer get meta dps, the idea is that all professions end up with the same dps potential so that there is no meta profession in regard of dps. For there to be no meta profession in regard of dps you absolutely need professions to all have the same range of dps potential. And the necromancer clearly don't fit this requirement, thus the constant plea to increase necromancer's dps to other's professions level. > > So giving necromancer meta level of dps just mean bringing him up to par with other and breaking the meta since as soon as all profession have the same dps, there is no longer a meta dps, only a choice amongst professions. The goal is not to be the profession taken in raids, the goal is to have the same chance to be taken in raid than the other professions. I'm going to heavily disagree with you dadnir sorry but personally meta will still exist, it will just be a measurement of what is viable. If there was a smaller gap of dps between all classes, then you got a balanced game.The fact that you got some support doesn't change that some support classes have huge disparities between each other, like:Shouldn't mesmers dps be nerfed by 5k dps? i mean they have tons of support so they shouldn't be doing so much dps, or is it only ok because they are mesmers? why should they be good at everything and necro gets to be autokicked? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted August 5, 2018 Share Posted August 5, 2018 > @"Barnabus Stinson.1409" said: > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > Let's get back to the topic shall we ... this isn't about how DPS is a big deal in raids or if you think I do raids or not. > > > > I won't debate that more DPS is beneficial because it obviously is ... that's NOT what we are discussing here. It's about the misconception that classes need to meet some player-determined threshold for damage to even join a raid. That's clearly false. It's also about the misconception that players can't be successful if they don't play meta classes in raids, or use the meta builds. That's also false. Players raid with non-meta classes and comps and succeed all the time ... so what's your excuse? > > Reductio ad absurdum time: > > You are doing a Fractal, Raid or any group content where your success depends on others as well as yourself. You keep failing, you just cant do it as a group. When thinking why it hits you...The character who is half naked and other half in blues. **Are you happy and supportive of their choice?** Right ... this all comes back to who you team with, not the class you play. . The threshold for success is low enough to enable a team of being successful with the all classes in the game. Thanks for making my point. You see, it's not meta that gives you success, it's how people play. > @"Axl.8924" said: > > @"Dadnir.5038" said: > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > @"Taqe.1342" said: > > > > If all of this don't matter, then why you have such problem with buffs to necro? > > > > > > I don't have a problem with buffs to necro. I have a problem with people pushing meta in a game where you don't need to play meta to succeed. The idea that Necro gets 'meta DPS' to become meta is nonsense to begin with; Meta isn't something that's planned; it's based on optimized play. Why would giving Necro meta-level DPS optimize play in any way? > > > > The idea is not that the necromancer get meta dps, the idea is that all professions end up with the same dps potential so that there is no meta profession in regard of dps. For there to be no meta profession in regard of dps you absolutely need professions to all have the same range of dps potential. And the necromancer clearly don't fit this requirement, thus the constant plea to increase necromancer's dps to other's professions level. > > > > So giving necromancer meta level of dps just mean bringing him up to par with other and breaking the meta since as soon as all profession have the same dps, there is no longer a meta dps, only a choice amongst professions. The goal is not to be the profession taken in raids, the goal is to have the same chance to be taken in raid than the other professions. > > I'm going to heavily disagree with you dadnir sorry but personally meta will still exist, it will just be a measurement of what is viable. > If there was a smaller gap of dps between all classes, then you got a balanced game.The fact that you got some support doesn't change that some support classes have huge disparities between each other, like:Shouldn't mesmers dps be nerfed by 5k dps? i mean they have tons of support so they shouldn't be doing so much dps, or is it only ok because they are mesmers? why should they be good at everything and necro gets to be autokicked? Exactly ... people are assuming that the only factor that will affect meta is DPS. They think they can predict what meta will be if something changes. Why would I take a Necro @ 32K over anything else? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dadnir.5038 Posted August 5, 2018 Share Posted August 5, 2018 > @"Axl.8924" said: > > @"Dadnir.5038" said: > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > @"Taqe.1342" said: > > > > If all of this don't matter, then why you have such problem with buffs to necro? > > > > > > I don't have a problem with buffs to necro. I have a problem with people pushing meta in a game where you don't need to play meta to succeed. The idea that Necro gets 'meta DPS' to become meta is nonsense to begin with; Meta isn't something that's planned; it's based on optimized play. Why would giving Necro meta-level DPS optimize play in any way? > > > > The idea is not that the necromancer get meta dps, the idea is that all professions end up with the same dps potential so that there is no meta profession in regard of dps. For there to be no meta profession in regard of dps you absolutely need professions to all have the same range of dps potential. And the necromancer clearly don't fit this requirement, thus the constant plea to increase necromancer's dps to other's professions level. > > > > So giving necromancer meta level of dps just mean bringing him up to par with other and breaking the meta since as soon as all profession have the same dps, there is no longer a meta dps, only a choice amongst professions. The goal is not to be the profession taken in raids, the goal is to have the same chance to be taken in raid than the other professions. > > I'm going to heavily disagree with you dadnir sorry but personally meta will still exist, it will just be a measurement of what is viable. > If there was a smaller gap of dps between all classes, then you got a balanced game.The fact that you got some support doesn't change that some support classes have huge disparities between each other, like:Shouldn't mesmers dps be nerfed by 5k dps? i mean they have tons of support so they shouldn't be doing so much dps, or is it only ok because they are mesmers? why should they be good at everything and necro gets to be autokicked? That's why I precise meta dps. What matter is that dps builds all reach the same level of dps. I agree that support build shouldn't reach a dps build level of dps, but that wasn't what I was talking about. The moment all dps build are at the same level of dps there is no longer a meta dps. In a raid group you don't need everybody to support so in the end you'll take the support you need and fill the rest of the spot with dps. Objectively, the meta support spots are very difficult to change, it's not impossible to imagine revenant replace a mesmer but this would need quite a few changes. As for druid, he just got to much unique support on it's side anet could reduce even more it's healing abilities that it still wouldn't bulge from it's spot, the only way for him to no longer be meta would be to rework spirits buffs. As for warrior, banner should be traited in a non dps traitline for them to have their level of efficiency (which isn't some credible changes). I stand on my position, to avoid meta dps, you need all professions to have the same level of potential dps. Meta support are not part of this statement, this is a totally different thing that need balance at a different level. The issue with the statement "meta dps" is that only 1 profession can be labeled as such since the most efficient will obviously be a single profession. As a necromancer and a player, I don't want a single profession to be more efficient than other professions, What I want is that all professions get the same chance to take a dps spot. And that's what should be important. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted August 5, 2018 Share Posted August 5, 2018 > @"Dadnir.5038" said: > I stand on my position, to avoid meta dps, you need all professions to have the same level of potential dps. Meta support are not part of this statement, this is a totally different thing that need balance at a different level. That's true, but it doesn't necessarily fix the problem of Necros being unwanted in teams. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axl.8924 Posted August 5, 2018 Share Posted August 5, 2018 Dps isn't the only thing utilities support Offensive defensive and of course tankiness, because if you die your dps is automatically zero. because you aren't able to help your group. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dadnir.5038 Posted August 5, 2018 Share Posted August 5, 2018 > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > @"Dadnir.5038" said: > > I stand on my position, to avoid meta dps, you need all professions to have the same level of potential dps. Meta support are not part of this statement, this is a totally different thing that need balance at a different level. > > That's true, but it doesn't necessarily fix the problem of Necros being unwanted in teams. > That's where you're wrong, all professions having the same level of potential dps fix this issue because out of 10 spots, 4-6 are for dps from whom you don't really care what support they can give. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted August 5, 2018 Share Posted August 5, 2018 > @"Dadnir.5038" said: > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > @"Dadnir.5038" said: > > > I stand on my position, to avoid meta dps, you need all professions to have the same level of potential dps. Meta support are not part of this statement, this is a totally different thing that need balance at a different level. > > > > That's true, but it doesn't necessarily fix the problem of Necros being unwanted in teams. > > > > That's where you're wrong, all professions having the same level of potential dps fix this issue because out of 10 spots, 4-6 are for dps from whom you don't really care what support they can give. No, I'm not wrong. you can't predict what meta will be, EVEN if everyone has the same level of DPS. For instance ... I might just load up on the classes that have the easiest rotations after I fill my support roles ... why would I take a class that has a DPS rotation that's harder and more risk to screw up? Maybe the DPS Anet gives me is based on a specific source of DPS that is less desirable for raids and people don't want that class. maybe there is a class that has a niche skill that bumps them up in preference. There are **all** kinds of ways Anet could give equal DPS and not make a class meta. Nope, you just can't assume that equalizing damage is going to get you teams because DPS is not the only factor for determining optimal comps. If you think that equalizing DPS 'fixes' the meta, then you don't understand fully what meta actually means. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axl.8924 Posted August 5, 2018 Share Posted August 5, 2018 > @"Dadnir.5038" said: > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > @"Dadnir.5038" said: > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > @"Taqe.1342" said: > > > > > If all of this don't matter, then why you have such problem with buffs to necro? > > > > > > > > I don't have a problem with buffs to necro. I have a problem with people pushing meta in a game where you don't need to play meta to succeed. The idea that Necro gets 'meta DPS' to become meta is nonsense to begin with; Meta isn't something that's planned; it's based on optimized play. Why would giving Necro meta-level DPS optimize play in any way? > > > > > > The idea is not that the necromancer get meta dps, the idea is that all professions end up with the same dps potential so that there is no meta profession in regard of dps. For there to be no meta profession in regard of dps you absolutely need professions to all have the same range of dps potential. And the necromancer clearly don't fit this requirement, thus the constant plea to increase necromancer's dps to other's professions level. > > > > > > So giving necromancer meta level of dps just mean bringing him up to par with other and breaking the meta since as soon as all profession have the same dps, there is no longer a meta dps, only a choice amongst professions. The goal is not to be the profession taken in raids, the goal is to have the same chance to be taken in raid than the other professions. > > > > I'm going to heavily disagree with you dadnir sorry but personally meta will still exist, it will just be a measurement of what is viable. > > If there was a smaller gap of dps between all classes, then you got a balanced game.The fact that you got some support doesn't change that some support classes have huge disparities between each other, like:Shouldn't mesmers dps be nerfed by 5k dps? i mean they have tons of support so they shouldn't be doing so much dps, or is it only ok because they are mesmers? why should they be good at everything and necro gets to be autokicked? > > That's why I precise meta dps. What matter is that dps builds all reach the same level of dps. I agree that support build shouldn't reach a dps build level of dps, but that wasn't what I was talking about. The moment all dps build are at the same level of dps there is no longer a meta dps. > > In a raid group you don't need everybody to support so in the end you'll take the support you need and fill the rest of the spot with dps. Objectively, the meta support spots are very difficult to change, it's not impossible to imagine revenant replace a mesmer but this would need quite a few changes. As for druid, he just got to much unique support on it's side anet could reduce even more it's healing abilities that it still wouldn't bulge from it's spot, the only way for him to no longer be meta would be to rework spirits buffs. As for warrior, banner should be traited in a non dps traitline for them to have their level of efficiency (which isn't some credible changes). > > I stand on my position, to avoid meta dps, you need all professions to have the same level of potential dps. Meta support are not part of this statement, this is a totally different thing that need balance at a different level. > > The issue with the statement "meta dps" is that only 1 profession can be labeled as such since the most efficient will obviously be a single profession. As a necromancer and a player, I don't want a single profession to be more efficient than other professions, What I want is that all professions get the same chance to take a dps spot. And that's what should be important. I understand dadnir but for fractals condi corrupt is super useful.Yes its niche but if the raid bosses for instance started throwing out condis that are devastating and lets say necro can corrupt:That makes necros useful in that niche.Strengthening their boon corrupt would keep them desired for fractals as corrupting 2 boons instead of stripping is more useful, since they are getting crippled slowed poisoned etc. I also think necros should have tanking abilities considering reaper could be built for tank.Just imagine if we had some necro competing for tanking job from mesmer, wouldn't that be interesting? They could have some specific shroud that has low dps all support but very tanky build. I also do think the dps should increase a bit more, as even the best support classes such as warr ranger and mesmer can provide multiple stuff and still outdps us, even engineers and guardians. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dace.8173 Posted August 5, 2018 Share Posted August 5, 2018 > @"Axl.8924" said: > Dps isn't the only thing utilities support Offensive defensive and of course tankiness, because if you die your dps is automatically zero. because you aren't able to help your group. I agree and I think this obsessive focus on DPS output has really hampered Necromancer players on getting what they want. Since the focus is on DPS ANet likely knows that doing something other than DPS may not fix the problem. However, it is unlikely that Necromancer will get to a DPS level that makes them chosen over another profession that already does DPS just as well. Thus the effort should be focused on having Necromancers contribute in equally important but different ways than DPS. There is more than one way to be important in a raid (as druid shows us) and there should be more time spent on that than just focusing the discussion on DPS. At present, I think that if ANet patched the game tomorrow to have more DPS that Necromancers still wouldn't be selected for raids since they wouldn't bring anything else to the table. And as Weaver players will tell you, having a high level of DPS can be taken away from you in a patch with a buff. But if you have a well developed support role then your DPS level won't matter as much and DPS patches won't hit as hard. Focusing on DPS seems to be aiming too high and is just setting folks up for more disappointment. Necromancer players have been wanting higher DPS for years and it hasn't gotten them anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted August 5, 2018 Share Posted August 5, 2018 > @"Axl.8924" said: > > @"Shadowmoon.7986" said: > > Stop feeding the troll, he clearly isnt knowledgabled about raiding/meta builds. At least two points he claimed he had to step back from when presented with evidence (casual/ow player are not generally bad at the game, dps is not important in raiding). He is truely disengenious with his arguements because he is not knowledgeable of what he's arguing, citing no evidence, when presented with evidence counter to his agruements, he will pogo to a new argument with again no evidence. > > I know this sounds elitist, but there must be some mimimal knowledge required to have meaningful conversations about necros place in raids. > > Better to just ignore Obtena i doubt obtena is a main of necro anyways doesn't seem to hold best interest in necromancers. It's not in the best interest of the game to balance according to Meta DPS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axl.8924 Posted August 5, 2018 Share Posted August 5, 2018 Better to just ignore Obtena i doubt obtena is a main of necro anyways doesn't seem to hold best interest in necromancers. > > It's not in the best interest of the game to balance according to Meta DPS. If necros can't excell at anything then there is no place its simple. Currently they are a selfish class so they cannot offer the kind of support needed and druids mesmers guardians and warriors dominate the support area, and eles can heal effectively if built for it and or do 40k dps if built for it. There is no room area for necro as it currently is, its design is flawed and terribly designed. In fact.this game has terrible design. While some classes have some support they can offer others are capable of dealing all 3 groups and dominate everything, its just plain bad. This leaves little to no room for builds except in WVW and maybe if your lucky in spvp for build diversity I understand that in wow for instance they had problems making a the 3 class jobs or whatever were tough to balance for all modes, but in the end they had certain builds designed for pvp and others for pve for build diversity, just an idea. I mean engis got build diversity and quality of life buffs on scrapper, so why can't necro? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dadnir.5038 Posted August 5, 2018 Share Posted August 5, 2018 > @"Axl.8924" said: > I understand dadnir but for fractals condi corrupt is super useful.Yes its niche but if the raid bosses for instance started throwing out condis that are devastating and lets say necro can corrupt:That makes necros useful in that niche.Strengthening their boon corrupt would keep them desired for fractals as corrupting 2 boons instead of stripping is more useful, since they are getting crippled slowed poisoned etc. > I'm sorry but we've had plenty of boon corruption "buff" and let's be honest, it doesn't make any difference for the necromancer in end game PvE. Why doesn't it make any difference? Because most boss don't even feel the conditions applied by boon corruption due to their boss status and their breakbar. Because most boss don't need boons in any way and when they got one it's a boon that's translated into acondition that doesn't affect them. There is no stability to corrupt into fear and have necromancer snowballing increase in dps because who need stab when you got breakbar. There is no vigor to corrupt into the necromancer trademark bleed because a mob need not to dodge. There is no aegis to corrupt into burn because even if there was it would be insta blown away. There is no regen to corrupt into poison because who would put a regen on himself when they got million of health point. Seriously, this is a flawed design to focus onto boon corruption. A design especially dangerous against foe that depend on boons and pitifully laughable against foes that have stats high enough to disregard boon and at the same time an almost perfect immunity to soft conditions. Moreover, you just can't create content that require boons to be removed because boon removal is not widespread enough on other professions to make the necromancer a simple choice. Generalizing boons on mobs that don't need them can only force player to take a necromancer which isn't what we should want in order to have a balanced game. > I also think necros should have tanking abilities considering reaper could be built for tank.Just imagine if we had some necro competing for tanking job from mesmer, wouldn't that be interesting? They could have some specific shroud that has low dps all support but very tanky build. > I also do think the dps should increase a bit more, as even the best support classes such as warr ranger and mesmer can provide multiple stuff and still outdps us, even engineers and guardians. > I won't say that I disagree with you, however, the level of support one have to dish out to have a tank spot is far far far away from what a necromancer can do both with it's core profession and the design that anet seem to pursue. It's hundred time more believable and feasible to have the necromancer tweeked in order for him to have the same level of dps as it's peer than to think that anet will give him the ability to dish out enough quickness and alacrity to compete with a chronomancer. With the game as it is, a necromancer being competitive as a tank in PvE is simply unthinkable. It's not that tanking is out of reach but the support necessary in order to do this is out of reach. Furthermore, in order for a necromancer to tank, it would be appreciated that he receive the same amount of support from other professions than other tank. Something which, due to the 2nd health bar design, is clearly not the case. I used to think like you, that what the necromancer needed in order to be competitive in PvE was some extra support. Anet showed what they se as "the necromancer's support" with scourge. This "proof" of good will from Anet thouroughly let me give up on the idea of ever being able to assume the role of a tank or a support in end game PvE. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axl.8924 Posted August 5, 2018 Share Posted August 5, 2018 > @"Dadnir.5038" said: > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > I understand dadnir but for fractals condi corrupt is super useful.Yes its niche but if the raid bosses for instance started throwing out condis that are devastating and lets say necro can corrupt:That makes necros useful in that niche.Strengthening their boon corrupt would keep them desired for fractals as corrupting 2 boons instead of stripping is more useful, since they are getting crippled slowed poisoned etc. > > > > I'm sorry but we've had plenty of boon corruption "buff" and let's be honest, it doesn't make any difference for the necromancer in end game PvE. Why doesn't it make any difference? Because most boss don't even feel the conditions applied by boon corruption due to their boss status and their breakbar. Because most boss don't need boons in any way and when they got one it's a boon that's translated into acondition that doesn't affect them. There is no stability to corrupt into fear and have necromancer snowballing increase in dps because who need stab when you got breakbar. There is no vigor to corrupt into the necromancer trademark bleed because a mob need not to dodge. There is no aegis to corrupt into burn because even if there was it would be insta blown away. There is no regen to corrupt into poison because who would put a regen on himself when they got million of health point. > > Seriously, this is a flawed design to focus onto boon corruption. A design especially dangerous against foe that depend on boons and pitifully laughable against foes that have stats high enough to disregard boon and at the same time an almost perfect immunity to soft conditions. > > Moreover, you just can't create content that require boons to be removed because boon removal is not widespread enough on other professions to make the necromancer a simple choice. Generalizing boons on mobs that don't need them can only force player to take a necromancer which isn't what we should want in order to have a balanced game. > > > I also think necros should have tanking abilities considering reaper could be built for tank.Just imagine if we had some necro competing for tanking job from mesmer, wouldn't that be interesting? They could have some specific shroud that has low dps all support but very tanky build. > > I also do think the dps should increase a bit more, as even the best support classes such as warr ranger and mesmer can provide multiple stuff and still outdps us, even engineers and guardians. > > > > I won't say that I disagree with you, however, the level of support one have to dish out to have a tank spot is far far far away from what a necromancer can do both with it's core profession and the design that anet seem to pursue. It's hundred time more believable and feasible to have the necromancer tweeked in order for him to have the same level of dps as it's peer than to think that anet will give him the ability to dish out enough quickness and alacrity to compete with a chronomancer. With the game as it is, a necromancer being competitive as a tank in PvE is simply unthinkable. It's not that tanking is out of reach but the support necessary in order to do this is out of reach. > > Furthermore, in order for a necromancer to tank, it would be appreciated that he receive the same amount of support from other professions than other tank. Something which, due to the 2nd health bar design, is clearly not the case. > > I used to think like you, that what the necromancer needed in order to be competitive in PvE was some extra support. Anet showed what they se as "the necromancer's support" with scourge. This "proof" of good will from Anet thouroughly let me give up on the idea of ever being able to assume the role of a tank or a support in end game PvE. So what is needed for a necro to be a tank then? i mean reaper used to be great for kiting that drill boss guy in fractals with chills and wandering around. How does tanking then work exactly in raids? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted August 5, 2018 Share Posted August 5, 2018 > @"Axl.8924" said: > If necros can't excell at anything then there is no place its simple. Except a DPS increase (even a significant one) won't make necros excel at anything ... so how am I wrong again? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axl.8924 Posted August 5, 2018 Share Posted August 5, 2018 Becau> @"Obtena.7952" said: > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > If necros can't excell at anything then there is no place its simple. > > Except a DPS increase (even a significant one) won't make necros excel at anything ... so how am I wrong again? > Because at least they will be more desireable, i mean having competitive dps will be helpful, there is still a issue of lack of support/tanking but if you don't have the support and tank or dps, then you might as well play something else, because your dead weight. If necro for instance could do competitive large and small tank dps, and when i mean competitive i mean something competitive to eles on large tank and competitive on small targets to lets say holo engi, then we are in business. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted August 5, 2018 Share Posted August 5, 2018 > @"Axl.8924" said: > Becau> @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > If necros can't excell at anything then there is no place its simple. > > > > Except a DPS increase (even a significant one) won't make necros excel at anything ... so how am I wrong again? > > > Because at least they will be more desireable, i mean having competitive dps will be helpful, there is still a issue of lack of support/tanking but if you don't have the support and tank or dps, then you might as well play something else, because your dead weight. > > If necro for instance could do competitive large and small tank dps, and when i mean competitive i mean something competitive to eles on large tank and competitive on small targets to lets say holo engi, then we are in business. > > Right, so we are back to predicting and pushing meta again. Good times. If that's the case, make better choices for team mates and classes because the game isn't designed to promote and push meta on the players. If you want to restrict yourself by meta promotion and joining PUGs, don't be surprised you get fewer teams than people that embrace the game as it was meant to be played. Listen, I'm not against Necro getting stuff, but pushing meta in this game is a non-starter, especially if you think it solves this problem. The whole game is designed around playing how you want and it's one the reasons Anet doesn't need to balance around meta. Anet pushing to meta balancing is a zero sum game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axl.8924 Posted August 5, 2018 Share Posted August 5, 2018 > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > Becau> @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > > If necros can't excell at anything then there is no place its simple. > > > > > > Except a DPS increase (even a significant one) won't make necros excel at anything ... so how am I wrong again? > > > > > Because at least they will be more desireable, i mean having competitive dps will be helpful, there is still a issue of lack of support/tanking but if you don't have the support and tank or dps, then you might as well play something else, because your dead weight. > > > > If necro for instance could do competitive large and small tank dps, and when i mean competitive i mean something competitive to eles on large tank and competitive on small targets to lets say holo engi, then we are in business. > > > > > Right, so we are back to predicting and pushing meta again. Good times. If that's the case, make better choices for team mates and classes because the game isn't designed to promote and push meta on the players. If you want to restrict yourself by meta promotion and joining PUGs, don't be surprised you get fewer teams than people that embrace the game as it was meant to be played. > > Listen, I'm not against Necro getting stuff, but pushing meta in this game is a non-starter, especially if you think it solves this problem. The whole game is designed around playing how you want and it's one the reasons Anet doesn't need to balance around meta. Anet pushing to meta balancing is a zero sum game. Problem is:meta push is how the game is designed for maximum efficiency.Like someone said:The sooner stuff dies the better. If the dps is a small difference it doesn't matter 5-10%? who cares but if its a lot more than that, then yes it matters. Dps can be a matter of life and death in matters of dangerous abilities that wipe the group, and everything else adds up to being dead weight, and scourge has lost a lot of everything, so yes it matters. Can you find someone who will accept you if you finda guild? yeah probably, but if a ele can do way more dps survive more because better invulns self heal etc, then why pick necro? If you got a necro who can ull maybe 2800k and everyone else has way above it, like 3300+ then thats quite a large disparity in dps, especially when you got some as high as 3700-4000 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted August 5, 2018 Share Posted August 5, 2018 > @"Axl.8924" said: > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > Becau> @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > > > If necros can't excell at anything then there is no place its simple. > > > > > > > > Except a DPS increase (even a significant one) won't make necros excel at anything ... so how am I wrong again? > > > > > > > Because at least they will be more desireable, i mean having competitive dps will be helpful, there is still a issue of lack of support/tanking but if you don't have the support and tank or dps, then you might as well play something else, because your dead weight. > > > > > > If necro for instance could do competitive large and small tank dps, and when i mean competitive i mean something competitive to eles on large tank and competitive on small targets to lets say holo engi, then we are in business. > > > > > > > > Right, so we are back to predicting and pushing meta again. Good times. If that's the case, make better choices for team mates and classes because the game isn't designed to promote and push meta on the players. If you want to restrict yourself by meta promotion and joining PUGs, don't be surprised you get fewer teams than people that embrace the game as it was meant to be played. > > > > Listen, I'm not against Necro getting stuff, but pushing meta in this game is a non-starter, especially if you think it solves this problem. The whole game is designed around playing how you want and it's one the reasons Anet doesn't need to balance around meta. Anet pushing to meta balancing is a zero sum game. > > Problem is:meta push is how the game is designed for maximum efficiency.Like someone said:The sooner stuff dies the better. > > If the dps is a small difference it doesn't matter 5-10%? who cares but if its a lot more than that, then yes it matters. > > Dps can be a matter of life and death in matters of dangerous abilities that wipe the group, and everything else adds up to being dead weight, and scourge has lost a lot of everything, so yes it matters. > > Can you find someone who will accept you if you finda guild? yeah probably, but if a ele can do way more dps survive more because better invulns self heal etc, then why pick necro? > I get that meta is about optimized play, but that's not preventing people from playing how they want and still succeeding at the game; the threshold for success is low enough to allow that. I'm not arguing that DPS isn't important and doesn't matter either (which is the idea that some other person not paying attention concocted to discredit me ... fall into that trap if you want) I'm saying that if you subject yourself to the meta PUG mentality, you have to play accordingly ... this is a PLAYERS choice to do so and it's also avoided by player choosing to NOT subject themselves to it. This isn't a problem that Anet needs to come in and fix because it's controlled by player's own choices. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axl.8924 Posted August 5, 2018 Share Posted August 5, 2018 Your arguing that it doesn't matter you can win if you get lucky but if i get /autokicked then yes it matters because we cannot provide good dps/support and bad amounts of abilities for invuns and stuff like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sephylon.4938 Posted August 5, 2018 Share Posted August 5, 2018 > @"Axl.8924" said: > > @"Dadnir.5038" said: > > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > I understand dadnir but for fractals condi corrupt is super useful.Yes its niche but if the raid bosses for instance started throwing out condis that are devastating and lets say necro can corrupt:That makes necros useful in that niche.Strengthening their boon corrupt would keep them desired for fractals as corrupting 2 boons instead of stripping is more useful, since they are getting crippled slowed poisoned etc. > > > > > > > I'm sorry but we've had plenty of boon corruption "buff" and let's be honest, it doesn't make any difference for the necromancer in end game PvE. Why doesn't it make any difference? Because most boss don't even feel the conditions applied by boon corruption due to their boss status and their breakbar. Because most boss don't need boons in any way and when they got one it's a boon that's translated into acondition that doesn't affect them. There is no stability to corrupt into fear and have necromancer snowballing increase in dps because who need stab when you got breakbar. There is no vigor to corrupt into the necromancer trademark bleed because a mob need not to dodge. There is no aegis to corrupt into burn because even if there was it would be insta blown away. There is no regen to corrupt into poison because who would put a regen on himself when they got million of health point. > > > > Seriously, this is a flawed design to focus onto boon corruption. A design especially dangerous against foe that depend on boons and pitifully laughable against foes that have stats high enough to disregard boon and at the same time an almost perfect immunity to soft conditions. > > > > Moreover, you just can't create content that require boons to be removed because boon removal is not widespread enough on other professions to make the necromancer a simple choice. Generalizing boons on mobs that don't need them can only force player to take a necromancer which isn't what we should want in order to have a balanced game. > > > > > I also think necros should have tanking abilities considering reaper could be built for tank.Just imagine if we had some necro competing for tanking job from mesmer, wouldn't that be interesting? They could have some specific shroud that has low dps all support but very tanky build. > > > I also do think the dps should increase a bit more, as even the best support classes such as warr ranger and mesmer can provide multiple stuff and still outdps us, even engineers and guardians. > > > > > > > I won't say that I disagree with you, however, the level of support one have to dish out to have a tank spot is far far far away from what a necromancer can do both with it's core profession and the design that anet seem to pursue. It's hundred time more believable and feasible to have the necromancer tweeked in order for him to have the same level of dps as it's peer than to think that anet will give him the ability to dish out enough quickness and alacrity to compete with a chronomancer. With the game as it is, a necromancer being competitive as a tank in PvE is simply unthinkable. It's not that tanking is out of reach but the support necessary in order to do this is out of reach. > > > > Furthermore, in order for a necromancer to tank, it would be appreciated that he receive the same amount of support from other professions than other tank. Something which, due to the 2nd health bar design, is clearly not the case. > > > > I used to think like you, that what the necromancer needed in order to be competitive in PvE was some extra support. Anet showed what they se as "the necromancer's support" with scourge. This "proof" of good will from Anet thouroughly let me give up on the idea of ever being able to assume the role of a tank or a support in end game PvE. > > So what is needed for a necro to be a tank then? i mean reaper used to be great for kiting that drill boss guy in fractals with chills and wandering around. > How does tanking then work exactly in raids? it works by having the highest toughness and knowing where and when to move the boss. Any class can do it. Problem however is that mesmer(chrono) can do it while loosing the least amount of dps while providing 2 very powerful buffs that no other class can provide together (only competitor for them is the fb+rene combo, and why take 2 ppl to do a job that 1 person can do by them-self), ontop of every boon in existence minus resistance and having 2-4 blocks, aegis spam, an evade, an invun and can all be reset if done while under continuum split. That is what you have to compete with to tank, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted August 5, 2018 Share Posted August 5, 2018 > @"Axl.8924" said: > Your arguing that it doesn't matter you can win if you get lucky but if i get /autokicked then yes it matters because we cannot provide good dps/support and bad amounts of abilities for invuns and stuff like that. I don't understand ... you don't need to be lucky. You just need to team with people that don't worship the meta if you don't want to play meta builds/classes/comps. People do this all the time ... what's your excuse? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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