3 more months at being at bottom of benchmark

[Draco.9480]

anet has a hate boner for necros in general.

[Dace.8173]

> @"Draco.9480" said:

> anet has a hate kitten for necros in general.

 

I find that to be highly unlikely.

[Dadnir.5038]

> @"Dace.8173" said:

> > @"Draco.9480" said:

> > anet has a hate kitten for necros in general.

>

> I find that to be highly unlikely.

 

Yeah, I think that contrary to belief, ANet love the necromancer. It's more that they are blinded by love than they hate it. There is no other profession that have had as many part of the game bended to fit them than the necromancer. Buffing used to relie almost only on fire field and blast that the necromancer both hindered and couldn't do, this has been "fixed". Mobs in high end PvE used to not have any boons, ANet gave fractals instabilities to necromancers. Trash mobs used to be skiped throught stealth which needed blast finisher and safe mobility, ANet removed that.

 

ANet really is in love with their concept of the necromancer and they don't want to stain it with something foreign that seem needed from our point of view.

[Swamurabi.7890]

> @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > @"Dace.8173" said:

> > > @"Draco.9480" said:

> > > anet has a hate kitten for necros in general.

> >

> > I find that to be highly unlikely.

>

> Yeah, I think that contrary to belief, ANet love the necromancer. It's more that they are blinded by love than they hate it. There is no other profession that have had as many part of the game bended to fit them than the necromancer. Buffing used to relie almost only on fire field and blast that the necromancer both hindered and couldn't do, this has been "fixed". Mobs in high end PvE used to not have any boons, ANet gave fractals instabilities to necromancers. Trash mobs used to be skiped throught stealth which needed blast finisher and safe mobility, ANet removed that.

>

> ANet really is in love with their concept of the necromancer and they don't want to stain it with something foreign that seem needed from our point of view.

 

So that's why I see all those LF Necros in raids and sPvP

[Dace.8173]

> @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > @"Dace.8173" said:

> > > @"Draco.9480" said:

> > > anet has a hate kitten for necros in general.

> >

> > I find that to be highly unlikely.

>

> Yeah, I think that contrary to belief, ANet love the necromancer. It's more that they are blinded by love than they hate it. There is no other profession that have had as many part of the game bended to fit them than the necromancer. Buffing used to relie almost only on fire field and blast that the necromancer both hindered and couldn't do, this has been "fixed". Mobs in high end PvE used to not have any boons, ANet gave fractals instabilities to necromancers. Trash mobs used to be skiped throught stealth which needed blast finisher and safe mobility, ANet removed that.

>

> ANet really is in love with their concept of the necromancer and they don't want to stain it with something foreign that seem needed from our point of view.

 

I find that unlikely too. The inherent flaw in your position is that it's not a universal opinion that everyone agrees with. The truth is that opinions on Necromancer are varied with some people actually liking the profession as is. The forums are a horrible, horrible, horrrrrrrrriiiibbbblllle indicator on whether or not there is a real problem because forum threads are often conversations between the same set of people. Go through these threads and you'll notice that there are a lot of familiar faces. Yeah, there are a lot of threads that complain about Necromancer but it's all done by a small pool of people. When the same group of people are discussing the same problem endlessly it doesn't really indicate to ANet that there is a problem. It indicates to them that some fans are unhappy. So the idea that ANet is in love with their concept and that it's going against the fans is simply not true.

 

Just because a lot of threads say something doesn't make it true. Furthermore, even if there is a problem (and I do agree that Necromancer underperforms) there isn't exactly a universal agreement on how it does so and what would fix it. As I have said other times, what is far far faaaarrr more likely is that the problem that plagues Necromancer is something built into how it was designed in the first place. And that is not something you are going to fix with a DPS buff that people keep calling for. I think Elite Specs is their way of attempting to find a better way to fix a design flaw problem that doesn't revolve around the often craved for DPS benchmark (which doesn't actually solve problems and could be a meaningless buff if it doesn't actually fix the core problem).

 

So given that there is no agreement on whether or not Necromancer is bad (there have been several people who have said as much only to be shouted down. This in turns depresses peoples willingness to post a contrary opinion being as how the forum wants to insist on a singular opinion). There are plenty of reasonable answers to why Necromancer doesn't work. People just don't want to believe them.

 

[Dadnir.5038]

> So the idea that ANet is in love with their concept and that it's going against the fans is simply not true.

 

I didn't say that. Most of all, I agree with most of what you're saying there. The necromancer's community is indeed divided in it's opinion about the solution to the necromancer's issues, but in general the necromancer's community agree on the fact that these issues exist. As for the unpopular opinion I never limit myself when it come to express them. For example, I still think that anet put way to much boon corruption that should be replaced by boon riping effects.

 

> @"Swamurabi.7890" said:

> So that's why I see all those LF Necros in raids and sPvP

 

Anet can't force the player base to share their opinion. Necromancers aren't unpopular in raid and sPvP because anet don't love them but because players don't love them.

[Ceit.7619]

Has nothing to do with players not 'loving' them, it has to do with their performance being horrible compared to other options. It's really that simple, they aren't going to take a class that is badly performing just because they'd love to see their icon in their party composition. In terms of damage, support and healing, necromancer is just bad at everything (in pve).

[Obtena.7952]

It has everything to do with how the game is conceived and one is allowing people playing how they want with no restrictions on class 'roles'.

 

If a team want's particular classes, they can do that. If a team wants to allow any classes, they can do that to. It's a fundamental tenet of this game. The game concepts are what drives how people play.

 

The other thing that drives this is low threshold for success. If you don't need meta to win, it makes little sense for Anet to put a ton of resources into balancing the game around Meta.

[Axl.8924]

> @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > So the idea that ANet is in love with their concept and that it's going against the fans is simply not true.

>

> I didn't say that. Most of all, I agree with most of what you're saying there. The necromancer's community is indeed divided in it's opinion about the solution to the necromancer's issues, but in general the necromancer's community agree on the fact that these issues exist. As for the unpopular opinion I never limit myself when it come to express them. For example, I still think that anet put way to much boon corruption that should be replaced by boon riping effects.

>

> > @"Swamurabi.7890" said:

> > So that's why I see all those LF Necros in raids and sPvP

>

> Anet can't force the player base to share their opinion. Necromancers aren't unpopular in raid and sPvP because anet don't love them but because players don't love them.

 

Personally I don't think its boon corrupt itself, i think that its the idea of boon corrupt which angers so many players, because you got melee classes who want to go in and attack and boon corrupt counters so hard the boon meta.Problem is: There are quite a lot of abilities that have boon corrupt and tied to defensive abilities.

 

To me:boon corrupt is something unique of necro, and taking it away would take away part of what makes necro unique.A bunch of other classes have boon rip but only necro has boon corrupt.Condi corrupt is also unique of necro.

 

I think ANET should never have had defensive offensive abilities all tied to one ability so strongly the way necro has, and its clear that it creates massive issues.

 

It makes you wonder doesn't it? does someone at the drawing board design without anyone in the balance team taking into the account that it might be overpowered mechanically?

[Dadnir.5038]

> @"Axl.8924" said:

> Personally I don't think its boon corrupt itself, i think that its the idea of boon corrupt which angers so many players, because you got melee classes who want to go in and attack and boon corrupt counters so hard the boon meta.Problem is: There are quite a lot of abilities that have boon corrupt and tied to defensive abilities.

>

> To me:boon corrupt is something unique of necro, and taking it away would take away part of what makes necro unique.A bunch of other classes have boon rip but only necro has boon corrupt.Condi corrupt is also unique of necro.

>

> I think ANET should never have had defensive offensive abilities all tied to one ability so strongly the way necro has, and its clear that it creates massive issues.

>

> It makes you wonder doesn't it? does someone at the drawing board design without anyone in the balance team taking into the account that it might be overpowered mechanically?

 

Well, boon corrupt have different level of performance based on which gamemode you are and thus is also a brake to necromancer buff because based on your environment boon corrupt can be very effective or totally useless. This mainly why I think ANet shouldn't focus on boon corrupt on the necromancer. Initially the necromancer had as many boon corrupt ability than he had boon ripping abilities. It would have been smarter to expand boon ripping abilities and keep boon corrupt as tactical effects. In short, I don't think boon corrupt is a bad thing, I just think that ANet shouldn't have made it overflowing and instead should have favored boon ripping effect which doesn't impact as much the overall performance of a professions dependant on it's environment.

 

But yeah, necromancers skills tend to have to many effects piled up upon each other as well and that's also an issue.

[Axl.8924]

Actually i was thinking about that more dadnir:Yeah i think adding more abilities on top on scourge was a bad idea.I personally think maybe it would have been better to improve it elsewhere so its not so stacked up.

 

I don't know if its even physically possible to improve necro without outcry from the masses, because whatever they do will not please them, and you do have some fans who are outspoken about their favorite elite specs such as reaper fans over scourge.Some even want reaper to dominate scourge and want scourge to die.On top of the classes who want to keep scourge down because of WVW and pvp, its just a mess.If you buff pve it buffs pvp and WVW.

[Anchoku.8142]

> @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > @"VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618" said:

> > > @"Nimon.7840" said:

> > > > @"VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618" said:

> > > > Question: why should a faceroll, easy peasy class like necro even do comparable damage output than other, harder to play classes?

> > > >

> > > > And if necro is bad, why does every wvw com want as many scourges as possible, but not eles or revs?

> > > >

> > > > Think about that for a moment.

> > > >

> > > > Necros are not underperforming at all. For such an easy, high health class, with a ridiculously easy rotation, tons of cleans, they are completely OP.

> > >

> > > Did you ever play necro yourself? Ever tried to reach the benchmark of power reaper?

> > >

> > > Man you don't know anything about this class.

> > >

> > > Faceroll once in a PvP 1v1 situation and you are dead.

> > >

> > > As for pve DPS. At least necro has to use all his skills and not just autoattack like thief does

> >

> > you can complain all the way you want, there is a reason why scourges swarm wvw: their damage, they mobility, their skills are all very good. Add in stupid high hp and you are done. Compared to weaver, necro is laughable easy. Seriously, necro, thieves and mesmers are the 3 classes that have no reason to complain.

>

> The thread is all about PvE thought, maybe you have the misconception that WvW is part of PvE? If it's for the PvE elements that you find in WvW, there are also plenty of them in PvP. So please keep ideas about WvW out of this thread, the necromancer is virtually designed from toe to head for WvW zergling and this is the only area where he have had a real place since launch.

>

> The issue of the necromancer is that he got unsatisfying result in PvE since launch and since there is a lot more players that only play PvE than players that are playing WvW and PvP, this is an issue that make "ink" flow.

 

Vahn, please play more as a Necromancer and you will understand. Necro is hard-nerfed by boss (Defiance) and encounter design. That is why Necro is not as good in PvE as in PvP and WvW.

 

All professions are inconvenienced by Defiance but Necro is hard-countered by it. Imagine if you had perma-resistance and near immunity to boon corruption for your favorite profession. Necro's would be easy to handle, yes?

 

Reaper was designed with a very large amount of cleave just to get Necro into dungeons, fractals, and raids. Scourge's barriers are there to strengthen Necro's weak group support, too. Even if the two elite specializations are not quite meta, they are much, much better than core Necro vs. Defiance. Most Necro mains want improved performance in instanced PvE against bosses, only, not a magic "I win" buff.

[Dace.8173]

> @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > So the idea that ANet is in love with their concept and that it's going against the fans is simply not true.

>

> I didn't say that. Most of all, I agree with most of what you're saying there. The necromancer's community is indeed divided in it's opinion about the solution to the necromancer's issues, but in general the necromancer's community agree on the fact that these issues exist. As for the unpopular opinion I never limit myself when it come to express them. For example, I still think that anet put way to much boon corruption that should be replaced by boon riping effects.

>

> > @"Swamurabi.7890" said:

> > So that's why I see all those LF Necros in raids and sPvP

>

> Anet can't force the player base to share their opinion. Necromancers aren't unpopular in raid and sPvP because anet don't love them but because players don't love them.

 

My apologies then. I read your post as sarcasm and just an attack and rip and that may have been the wrong way to take your post. I will add though that I not only think the community is divided on what is wrong I think the community is divided on whether or not a problem exists. I have seen several people post that they are happy with things and thus this makes the issue more complicated because there is not a single coherent message for ANet to follow. I do fall into the camp that Necromancer underperforms in PvE but I would be remiss if I didn't also account for the fact that there are people who play Necromancer in PvE content who are just 100% enjoying the profession and see nothing wrong. Given that upset people are more likely to post than happy people it is difficult to get a read on how big that contingent is. Since most folks who say Necromancer is ok are attacked in various ways there is no real incentive for people who are happy with the profession to jump into conversations like this. It may be the case that they are a silent minority. Or it may be the case that the forums constitute a vocal minority. But due to the fact that happy people exist the ability to address Necromancer's problems become a complicated mess of sifting through what is actually wrong and what can be changed to make the most amount of people happy customers.

[Dace.8173]

> @"Ceit.7619" said:

> Has nothing to do with players not 'loving' them, it has to do with their performance being horrible compared to other options. It's really that simple, they aren't going to take a class that is badly performing just because they'd love to see their icon in their party composition. In terms of damage, support and healing, necromancer is just bad at everything (in pve).

 

I do not 100% believe this. I think the PUG crowd has a very strict idea of what is viable and that the community as a whole has a certain level of efficiency that it wants to maintain. This level of efficiency excludes Necromancer but it does not mean that Necromancer couldn't complete it if people were willing to accept a lower level of efficiency. The fact that some people do Raids and come back and say they've done them just fine as Necromancer seems to indicate that the problem for Necromancer isn't one of Necromancer performance being horrible but one of Necromancer performance not meeting an artificially created performance level. I think this is where ANet and Necromancer players diverge most on. I think ANet likely has a lower threshold of what it considers viable and likely doesn't see the playerbase created one as an appropriate goal to shoot for.

[Incurve Giidis.7829]

wasnt epi scourge the most broken thing in raids a while ago? was it nerfed that badly, or is it still one of the most cheese shit u can have?

 

i remember this sloth stream where they heal/barrier through sloth poison fields through the entire fight, just a day before the epi nerf lul

[Nimon.7840]

> @"Incurve Giidis.7829" said:

> wasnt epi scourge the most broken thing in raids a while ago? was it nerfed that badly, or is it still one of the most cheese kitten u can have?

>

> i remember this sloth stream where they heal/barrier through sloth poison fields through the entire fight, just a day before the epi nerf lul

 

Bouncing epi got gutted by 75% so it's not worth anymore. And necro dmg is the lowest of all classes.

 

If you think back, necro was only strong, when

1. There was a bug with necro (dhuumfire bug)

Or

2. The players found something unintended by anet (shambling horrors, epibounce)

[Ceit.7619]

> @"Dace.8173" said:

> > @"Ceit.7619" said:

> > Has nothing to do with players not 'loving' them, it has to do with their performance being horrible compared to other options. It's really that simple, they aren't going to take a class that is badly performing just because they'd love to see their icon in their party composition. In terms of damage, support and healing, necromancer is just bad at everything (in pve).

>

> I do not 100% believe this. I think the PUG crowd has a very strict idea of what is viable and that the community as a whole has a certain level of efficiency that it wants to maintain. This level of efficiency excludes Necromancer but it does not mean that Necromancer couldn't complete it if people were willing to accept a lower level of efficiency. The fact that some people do Raids and come back and say they've done them just fine as Necromancer seems to indicate that the problem for Necromancer isn't one of Necromancer performance being horrible but one of Necromancer performance not meeting an artificially created performance level. I think this is where ANet and Necromancer players diverge most on. I think ANet likely has a lower threshold of what it considers viable and likely doesn't see the playerbase created one as an appropriate goal to shoot for.

 

Raids can be completed in green quality gear as well, but nobody really advocates for not gearing up in ascended for raids. The thing about the issue is when one and ONLY one class has ZERO desirable builds for the entire pve endgame, that is a realistic problem to complain about. At the very least, if they want Necromancer to not be used in raids by keeping their balance at these levels, they should at least address this desire to the playerbase so that people can stop wasting their energy hoping that their favorite class can be useful. Sure, necromancer can clear the content, nobody is really denying that. What we are asking for is a *reason* as to why Necromancer is doing the same damage as support specs. Why necromancer doesn't have a support spec worth anything themselves. Why many classes are viable everywhere, but Necromancer is cursed to only be good at pvp.

[Dace.8173]

> @"Ceit.7619" said:

> > @"Dace.8173" said:

> > > @"Ceit.7619" said:

> > > Has nothing to do with players not 'loving' them, it has to do with their performance being horrible compared to other options. It's really that simple, they aren't going to take a class that is badly performing just because they'd love to see their icon in their party composition. In terms of damage, support and healing, necromancer is just bad at everything (in pve).

> >

> > I do not 100% believe this. I think the PUG crowd has a very strict idea of what is viable and that the community as a whole has a certain level of efficiency that it wants to maintain. This level of efficiency excludes Necromancer but it does not mean that Necromancer couldn't complete it if people were willing to accept a lower level of efficiency. The fact that some people do Raids and come back and say they've done them just fine as Necromancer seems to indicate that the problem for Necromancer isn't one of Necromancer performance being horrible but one of Necromancer performance not meeting an artificially created performance level. I think this is where ANet and Necromancer players diverge most on. I think ANet likely has a lower threshold of what it considers viable and likely doesn't see the playerbase created one as an appropriate goal to shoot for.

>

> Raids can be completed in green quality gear as well, but nobody really advocates for not gearing up in ascended for raids. The thing about the issue is when one and ONLY one class has ZERO desirable builds for the entire pve endgame, that is a realistic problem to complain about. At the very least, if they want Necromancer to not be used in raids by keeping their balance at these levels, they should at least address this desire to the playerbase so that people can stop wasting their energy hoping that their favorite class can be useful. Sure, necromancer can clear the content, nobody is really denying that. What we are asking for is a *reason* as to why Necromancer is doing the same damage as support specs. Why necromancer doesn't have a support spec worth anything themselves. Why many classes are viable everywhere, but Necromancer is cursed to only be good at pvp.

 

They'll never answer that because the answer would likely upset players. I suspect, and some folks agree with me on this, that Necromancer is fundamentally flawed. Somewhere along the way Necromancer did not go the way they intended it to and they've been trying to fix it ever since. But you can't come out and tell your customers that they screwed up a profession so they just keep trying one fix after another. However, after six years I think it should be clear, Necromancer suffers from a fundamental flaw in how it was designed that prevents it from reaching its full potential. They have gotten it there in PvP and WvW but PvE content is still alluding them. In faction based games of this nature, a six year long problem like this makes it clear that there is a core flaw somewhere in the makeup of that faction and those types of flaws can't be fixed so long as the current set of governing mechanics exist. But since it's just one profession and in only just one mode of play, there is no inherent reason to go back and change some of the core flaws. Doing so is high risk low reward because you have PvP and WvW players who are happy and even PvE players who are happy so there is a point at which it is not worthwhile to make those core changes.

 

These types of flaws work both ways too. When a profession is consistently good no matter what, like Mesmer ( I made my first one tonight yay!!!!!) then that indicates that there is a flaw in its design that boosts it's abilities to a level that disrupts overall balance. You can't fix this one because folks nerd rage even if it's for the best of the game.

 

Complain all you want but at a certain point, all it becomes is white noise. They know a problem exists and it is a waste of their time to engage fans of Necromancer on the issue. The truth is that they are trying to address the desires of the player base and are just failing to do so. Sometimes something simply can't be done. They'll never come out and tell Necromancers to stop putting time and enrgy into the profession, that's just bad business but at some point each person will need to decide if they still enjoy the profession. There are folks that are happy with it as is, after all and thus they complicate the matter of fixing things even more. It's hard for ANet to meet the playerbase desires when there is no singular coherent vision of what should be done but a bunch of competing ideas on Necromancer that are, to some degree, all valid.

[Dadnir.5038]

> @"Dace.8173" said:

> These types of flaws work both ways too. When a profession is consistently good no matter what, like Mesmer ( I made my first one tonight yay!!!!!) then that indicates that there is a flaw in its design that boosts it's abilities to a level that disrupts overall balance. You can't fix this one because folks nerd rage even if it's for the best of the game.

 

I'd like to disagree with that statement, the mesmer wasn't "consistently good no matter what". In the vanilla game, the mesmer wasn't a really good pick in PvE end game. It's raw damage were simply to low for the PvE end game and it's support, while appreciated, wasn't automatically worse taking him within a team. It's fondamental design leaned toward an ability to burst hard and then stay elusive which suited PvP/WvW roaming just fine but wasn't really suited for zergling or PvE.

 

Now, and it's pretty recent, the mesmer became quite well-rounded which make him good almost everywhere.

[Dace.8173]

> @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > @"Dace.8173" said:

> > These types of flaws work both ways too. When a profession is consistently good no matter what, like Mesmer ( I made my first one tonight yay!!!!!) then that indicates that there is a flaw in its design that boosts it's abilities to a level that disrupts overall balance. You can't fix this one because folks nerd rage even if it's for the best of the game.

>

> I'd like to disagree with that statement, the mesmer wasn't "consistently good no matter what". In the vanilla game, the mesmer wasn't a really good pick in PvE end game. It's raw damage were simply to low for the PvE end game and it's support, while appreciated, wasn't automatically worse taking him within a team. It's fondamental design leaned toward an ability to burst hard and then stay elusive which suited PvP/WvW roaming just fine but wasn't really suited for zergling or PvE.

>

> Now, and it's pretty recent, the mesmer became quite well-rounded which make him good almost everywhere.

 

Fair point. I always remember Mesmer as always being good and one of the go to professions people complained about. But being as how I have just now made one and I play a lot of WvW and PvP my perception on the profession is likely skewed towards how well it does in those modes. Perhaps Elementalist would be a closer fit to a profession that has always outperformed the rest?

[Dadnir.5038]

> @"Dace.8173" said:

> > @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > > @"Dace.8173" said:

> > > These types of flaws work both ways too. When a profession is consistently good no matter what, like Mesmer ( I made my first one tonight yay!!!!!) then that indicates that there is a flaw in its design that boosts it's abilities to a level that disrupts overall balance. You can't fix this one because folks nerd rage even if it's for the best of the game.

> >

> > I'd like to disagree with that statement, the mesmer wasn't "consistently good no matter what". In the vanilla game, the mesmer wasn't a really good pick in PvE end game. It's raw damage were simply to low for the PvE end game and it's support, while appreciated, wasn't automatically worse taking him within a team. It's fondamental design leaned toward an ability to burst hard and then stay elusive which suited PvP/WvW roaming just fine but wasn't really suited for zergling or PvE.

> >

> > Now, and it's pretty recent, the mesmer became quite well-rounded which make him good almost everywhere.

>

> Fair point. I always remember Mesmer as always being good and one of the go to professions people complained about. But being as how I have just now made one and I play a lot of WvW and PvP my perception on the profession is likely skewed towards how well it does in those modes. Perhaps Elementalist would be a closer fit to a profession that has always outperformed the rest?

 

Well, nope, there wasn't any profession that didn't have it's ups and down. In the case of the elementalist he certainly was dominating PvE in the vanilla game and had great time in both PvP/WvW but it's a difficult to balance profession that naturally suffer against other players due to it's low ability to create windows of opportunities to land it's burst.

 

Objectively, the only profession that always had good average performance from launch (despite what it's community tend to say) is the guardian. Almost never outstanding, yet never a really bad pick in any of the 3 gamemodes. Still the profession rarely outperform totally other professions so it's "ok".