The future of the thief spamm 1115

[Xyonon.3987]

> @"Jugglemonkey.8741" said:

> Only if people refuse to let ele play because they only have 37k DPS (pulling numbers out of the air here), in which case the problem is the players being idiots, not the class.

That's extremly hypocritic. If the people shouldn't care about 37k DpS, why do you care if it's 37k and not 34k?

 

> @"Jugglemonkey.8741" said:

>It also ignores the fact that the only thing deadeye could replace is ele, and having two deadeyes would probably be a dps loss over one deadeye one ele due to deadeye being totally reliant on group buffs and the utility etc that ele brings with that DPS.

That's not a fact. The thing is right now depending on boss it could be Weaver, it could be Holo, it could atm even be cEngi and shareSB and SpB. They are all rather on the same spot and this is talking party dps contribution, NOT personal dps. Then every single profession that isn't a Chronomancer is reliant on party buffs and none of the listed above provide any reasonable amount that you would need one of them for those said buffs. Your statement is simply wrong.

 

> @"reddie.5861" said:

> whats problem?

> could 1 shot everything in PvE whos harmed? npc's dont care no1 cares lol this kitten setup doesnt work in sPvP neither in world vs world

I'd like you to show some respect to other gamemodes and playerbases. I hate nothing more than PvP, PvE, WvW talkting down on each other for nothing but a mere "I'm better than u"-wanna be statement. A serious answer tho: The PvE Raider and Fractals playerbase / balance cares.

 

> @"polvere.2805" said:

> Let's remember together the over 40k weaver dps (and the 50 k openers), was it like 46k ? It was around 10 to 13 k over from the other power specs. 4k is nothing

4k is not nothing tho, if it was you wouldn't mind a nerf either, would you? 10-13k was just so broken that it took them serval balance patches in a row, hammering nerfs into Weaver until the place it is now.

 

> @"LordOShade.5270" said:

> In before people start justifying that big of a gap due to the 'complexity' of the Weaver rotation. I mean, thief's new rotation may be simple but a lot of it comes down to positioning since most of their bonus apply via attacking from side and back.

Which is indeed what people don't see. It's not literally just 51111111 repeat. You need to flank and there are also quite a few other things to consider. That's why I think high dps is just fine since utility wise you only offer 750cc (which is a lot don't get me wrong), but 34k would be more acceptable / better for the pve raid/fractals balance than 37-39k like other managed.

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

> @"Xyonon.3987" said:

> > @"Jugglemonkey.8741" said:

> > Only if people refuse to let ele play because they only have 37k DPS (pulling numbers out of the air here), in which case the problem is the players being idiots, not the class.

> That's extremly hypocritic. If the people shouldn't care about 37k DpS, why do you care if it's 37k and not 34k?

 

Because of the last point in my previous post; having ele, holo, guard and deadeye at 34k means deadeye will never be picked over the others due to bringing absolutely nothing but damage where the others have better utility. We saw this when daredevil had 30k DPS. Thief in general needs better than average damage to justify taking it given the lack of utility. On the other hand, arguing that you can't bring an ele because it has 34k dps and they want the 37kdps a thief brings is just dumb when raid content is easily doable with either now. But that's how people think in this game. It only means deadeye now has a place in the meta which it didn't beforehand, which is overall a positive thing.

 

In short; thief should be best single target DPS or close to it because other classes bring more utility, to give people a reason to bring it. It had what was considered comparatively poor DPS before, now it does not. And it will only "lock slots" if people insist on you bringing it over ele when ele is perfectly fine to run, but that's a player attitude issue, not a game issue.

[oOAvengerOo.6714]

> @"Jugglemonkey.8741" said:

> In short; thief should be best single target DPS or close to it because other classes bring more utility, to give people a reason to bring it. It had what was considered comparatively poor DPS before, now it does not. And it will only "lock slots" if people insist on you bringing it over ele when ele is perfectly fine to run, but that's a player attitude issue, not a game issue.

 

Exactly what this man said.

The only way to fix the current situation are : nerf thief to lower dps because easier rotation and change raid player mentality so they can still be accepted or nerf just a bit thief so they are still top single target dps but not too far ahead or totally rework thief make initiatives/0 CD mechanism disappear and if they do that they will need to almost restart from scratch. I believe we don't have to much choice because rework is too important to do it in GW2 and change mentality of raid player is impossible. So I'm ok with a little nerf on DE damage.

I play DE rifle so ok the rotation is not that complex but don't find it totally dumb or brain dead like people call it.

[JayPanda.1304]

Wasn't the Power Herald the same rotation at HoT launch prior to all the nerfs rev took later on. Obviously it didn't do the damage deadeye does because of the massive powercreep but it wasn't awful plus it provided good utility with Facet of Nature.

[Vermagus.7804]

> @"TanksK.4795" said:

> It deserves to be top dps, but does the top dps deserve to be this high? while others do like 33k? I'm sry but 4k difference is too over the moon.

 

Yes, especially when we bring no real utility to the table

> > @"Xyonon.3987" said:

> > > @"Jugglemonkey.8741" said:

> > > Only if people refuse to let ele play because they only have 37k DPS (pulling numbers out of the air here), in which case the problem is the players being idiots, not the class.

> > That's extremly hypocritic. If the people shouldn't care about 37k DpS, why do you care if it's 37k and not 34k?

>

> Because of the last point in my previous post; having ele, holo, guard and deadeye at 34k means deadeye will never be picked over the others due to bringing absolutely nothing but damage where the others have better utility. We saw this when daredevil had 30k DPS. Thief in general needs better than average damage to justify taking it given the lack of utility. On the other hand, arguing that you can't bring an ele because it has 34k dps and they want the 37kdps a thief brings is just dumb when raid content is easily doable with either now. But that's how people think in this game. It only means deadeye now has a place in the meta which it didn't beforehand, which is overall a positive thing.

>

> In short; thief should be best single target DPS or close to it because other classes bring more utility, to give people a reason to bring it. It had what was considered comparatively poor DPS before, now it does not. And it will only "lock slots" if people insist on you bringing it over ele when ele is perfectly fine to run, but that's a player attitude issue, not a game issue.

 

couldn't have said it better myself. Also what people tend to forget is that thieves HP pool is so damn low, we still have to potion correctly . Golem Dps is one thing, Real mechanics is another

[Specialka.7290]

When i see the overall skill level of gw2 playerbase, I do understand why some ppl think it is hard to flank a giant target.

[NICENIKESHOE.7128]

Too many self-pitying in this thread, thief may not have the best cleave but "no utility" is a myth. **There are only 2 utility a dps brings to the group in raid after epidemic nerf: cleave and CC.** Not boon as mesmer and druid WILL cap it, not professional buff as all professional buff outside of bannerslave are never essential, that's why a lot of times you don't see engi bring pinpoint over thermal prior to patch.

 

Thief can switch thief guild for 750 breakbar basilik without much of a dps loss given thief guild's long CD. It is the second best CC skill in this game and can easily chip away 1/3 breakbar in most bosses.

 

Also most of the time you really just need 2 target cleave in raid bosses (VG/Sab/Trio/KC/MO and to some degree statues). All other encounters have mobs that die within seconds, that includes Gors/Trio/Xera. So yeah D/D DE is actually not too far behind Solo/DH/zerker/weaver in terms of utility and can even surpass most builds in terms of CC.

 

With that rotation even if all dps classes are set at 34k thief will still be a popular choice. The biggest reason DD wasn't picked back in 30k is it loses out on dps powercreep even after the camera "fix" (which is not the best fix in itself), not because it didn't bring any utility. The 30+/40+k tempest/weaver is the main contributor to that, but somehow you guys are ok with it because thief is favor of the month now? So yeah. Given the strong CC and ease of playing it should really be set at 34k, not 39k.

[Belishine.7493]

i noticed that you all keep one missing one major point for thief and that is we are to be best single target dps not aoe but ele is best in bother aoe and single target dps. with that being stated part of the issue anet is haveing is we do not get that good of a bonus on the damage on the back and the mind set of thief is only a +1. as a whole for a long time rogue player in meany games thief is lacking in dps and yet they still get nerfed to hell all the time it just makes no sence to me at all. i think this is were thief is hurting.

[LordOShade.5270]

> @"NICENIKESHOE.7128" said:

> Too many self-pitying in this thread, thief may not have the best cleave but "no utility" is a myth. **There are only 2 utility a dps brings to the group in raid after epidemic nerf: cleave and CC.** Not boon as mesmer and druid WILL cap it, not professional buff as all professional buff outside of bannerslave are never essential, that's why a lot of times you don't see engi bring pinpoint over thermal prior to patch.

>

> Thief can switch thief guild for 750 breakbar basilik without much of a dps loss given thief guild's long CD. It is the second best CC skill in this game and can easily chip away 1/3 breakbar in most bosses.

>

> Also most of the time you really just need 2 target cleave in raid bosses (VG/Sab/Trio/KC/MO and to some degree statues). All other encounters have mobs that die within seconds, that includes Gors/Trio/Xera. So yeah D/D DE is actually not too far behind Solo/DH/zerker/weaver in terms of utility and can even surpass most builds in terms of CC.

>

> With that rotation even if all dps classes are set at 34k thief will still be a popular choice. The biggest reason DD wasn't picked back in 30k is it loses out on dps powercreep even after the camera "fix" (which is not the best fix in itself), not because it didn't bring any utility. The 30+/40+k tempest/weaver is the main contributor to that, but somehow you guys are ok with it because thief is favor of the month now? So yeah. Given the strong CC and ease of playing it should really be set at 34k, not 39k.

 

...And then you remember that is the **ONLY MEANINGFUL** CC we can bring to a fight. Not sure why a raid party would want to bring a thief that applies the same DPS as other DPSers and can only provide 1 meaningfully CC instead of other the other DPSers that bring better CC and more passive support.

 

There's a reason why theifs are called **"SELFISH DPSers"**.

[NICENIKESHOE.7128]

> @"LordOShade.5270" said:

> > @"NICENIKESHOE.7128" said:

> > Too many self-pitying in this thread, thief may not have the best cleave but "no utility" is a myth. **There are only 2 utility a dps brings to the group in raid after epidemic nerf: cleave and CC.** Not boon as mesmer and druid WILL cap it, not professional buff as all professional buff outside of bannerslave are never essential, that's why a lot of times you don't see engi bring pinpoint over thermal prior to patch.

> >

> > Thief can switch thief guild for 750 breakbar basilik without much of a dps loss given thief guild's long CD. It is the second best CC skill in this game and can easily chip away 1/3 breakbar in most bosses.

> >

> > Also most of the time you really just need 2 target cleave in raid bosses (VG/Sab/Trio/KC/MO and to some degree statues). All other encounters have mobs that die within seconds, that includes Gors/Trio/Xera. So yeah D/D DE is actually not too far behind Solo/DH/zerker/weaver in terms of utility and can even surpass most builds in terms of CC.

> >

> > With that rotation even if all dps classes are set at 34k thief will still be a popular choice. The biggest reason DD wasn't picked back in 30k is it loses out on dps powercreep even after the camera "fix" (which is not the best fix in itself), not because it didn't bring any utility. The 30+/40+k tempest/weaver is the main contributor to that, but somehow you guys are ok with it because thief is favor of the month now? So yeah. Given the strong CC and ease of playing it should really be set at 34k, not 39k.

>

> ...And then you remember that is the **ONLY MEANINGFUL** CC we can bring to a fight. Not sure why a raid party would want to bring a thief that applies the same DPS as other DPSers and can only provide 1 meaningfully CC instead of other the other DPSers that bring better CC and more passive support.

>

> There's a reason why theifs are called **"SELFISH DPSers"**.

 

Let's stop talking about vague concepts and use facts.

 

What passive support are you looking for in DPS? As I said boons get capped by your support druid and chrono and professional buff are very negligible.

 

Also what are you referring to in "meaningful"? Mesmer and druid usually bring pull/push for mechanic. All other dps will require 2-4 CC skills to match the same breakbar potential as basilik alone. And guess what? That's pretty much the amount they bring, any more and we're looking at someone who can't easily reach 30k on golem. Don't just say better because it's from other class.

[DeceiverX.8361]

> @"TanksK.4795" said:

> With this dps, raid will get dominated with 6 thieves for non cleave fight. What's the point of playing other professions other than fun? Same goes for Ele pre-patch power based big hit boxe bosses, but not this patch.

 

You just answered your own question and exposed the flaw with raid environments and why ANet's raid design is not healthy, and PvE min-maxing is a total joke as a whole when trying to work on balance.

 

If elitist pricks are only going to pick what's #1, everything else becomes purposeless. Welcome to the identity of everything else, as you were pretty obviously playing the top end by sheer happenstance.

 

As for the fact it only uses two buttons... yeah. That's why D/D is complete and utter garbage in PvP/WvW. Skills 2/3/4 are so bad they're basically never worth using, and even CnD (5) is considered bad in PvP, too.

 

Which is also why the addition of Malicious Backstab was and will continue to be a problem in respects to balancing thief, which to this day I do not understand how ANet thought it would be a good idea to implement.

 

D/D needs actually good skills, most of the powercreep from PoF needs further toning down, and people need to stop pretending like the PvE meta isn't just a super trivial optimization problem. It's never going to be interesting and diverse unless they change encounter design to totally obliterate stacking and make the mobs/bosses reflect the difficulty and unpredictability of PvP encounters.

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

> @"LordOShade.5270" said:

> > @"NICENIKESHOE.7128" said:

> > Too many self-pitying in this thread, thief may not have the best cleave but "no utility" is a myth. **There are only 2 utility a dps brings to the group in raid after epidemic nerf: cleave and CC.** Not boon as mesmer and druid WILL cap it, not professional buff as all professional buff outside of bannerslave are never essential, that's why a lot of times you don't see engi bring pinpoint over thermal prior to patch.

> >

> > Thief can switch thief guild for 750 breakbar basilik without much of a dps loss given thief guild's long CD. It is the second best CC skill in this game and can easily chip away 1/3 breakbar in most bosses.

> >

> > Also most of the time you really just need 2 target cleave in raid bosses (VG/Sab/Trio/KC/MO and to some degree statues). All other encounters have mobs that die within seconds, that includes Gors/Trio/Xera. So yeah D/D DE is actually not too far behind Solo/DH/zerker/weaver in terms of utility and can even surpass most builds in terms of CC.

> >

> > With that rotation even if all dps classes are set at 34k thief will still be a popular choice. The biggest reason DD wasn't picked back in 30k is it loses out on dps powercreep even after the camera "fix" (which is not the best fix in itself), not because it didn't bring any utility. The 30+/40+k tempest/weaver is the main contributor to that, but somehow you guys are ok with it because thief is favor of the month now? So yeah. Given the strong CC and ease of playing it should really be set at 34k, not 39k.

>

> ...And then you remember that is the **ONLY MEANINGFUL** CC we can bring to a fight. Not sure why a raid party would want to bring a thief that applies the same DPS as other DPSers and can only provide 1 meaningfully CC instead of other the other DPSers that bring better CC and more passive support.

>

> There's a reason why theifs are called **"SELFISH DPSers"**.

 

Pretty sure if you brought S/P on offset along with basilisk venom you'd have all the CC you'd need. I used to do that in fractals on staff daredevil, just to make sure we broke the bar if our group was lazy with their CC skills.

[babazhook.6805]

A Rotation is a rotation and if people follow it ad nauseum it does not matter if 5 different buttons pressed repetitively over 20 minutes or three different buttons pressed repetitively over that same period of time. People train their rotation and either master it or don't. That one MIGHT be simpler then anothers hardly means there a problem in the design of those respective classes. What it in fact reveals is the limitations of an AI when it comes to fighting. If the AI could properly adapt to the actions of the players and respond accordingly acting more like a truly human player at the other end, then those rotations would break down across all professions and the individual players would use different skills at different times.

 

Trying to force the design of a given class into "Battles against Computer run Bosses" scenarios is just poor design for MMOs. That type of design is better suited for single player games where Pvp dos not exist. The problem with all those types of games is they have a limited Shelf life. Once a given build or combination of classes is best learned to deal with a given boss (And ALL those games end up with the player base weaning builds down to those that are the most efficient) then the "kill" becomes second nature and people demand another challenge.

 

When players involve themself in PvP against HUMAN opponents on any given encounter the exact same build one might have encountered the day before will play and react differently. Some players encountered are very good, some are bad. Some use skills or abilities or rotations one has never encountered before. One can not predict at any given moment the exact nature of the player and the build that they will encounter next and so will be adapting on the fly.

 

What too many of the balance threads become about is not balance so much as it is the specific rules and nuances of a given game mode. As example if a given mode all about holding a point so it flips in ones favor so as to garner a higher score, then a wide swathe of specific skills and classes will be favored at the expense of another class or profession. If that point can not be held or flipped while stealthed and a builds survival and big attacks favors using Stealth, then that stealth using player will have a role that is much more narrowly defined .

[Fat Disgrace.4275]

Why is everyone jumping about pve numbers? I don't get it. Pve balance is kinda meh when people have soloed high end stuff.

[odiasura.9513]

Seems like only a problem for the 42 people who still raid.

[Specialka.7290]

If you do not work for world 1st, min maxing in a raid pve is a joke, and especially in gw2, where pve is so easy.

[Zedek.8932]

> @"Turk.5460" said:

> > @"TanksK.4795" said:

> > What's the point of playing other professions other than fun?

>

> What.

>

> This is a video game, your decisions should *always* be what is most fun to you.

> ???????????????

> ???????????????

> What.

 

I think he means that people would play profession X over Y because X is stronger but they HAVE to play their less desired profession even though it's not fun to them simply by the lack of [insert reason, e.g. damage or playstyle].

And that is a pretty good statement, as I used it too (I know people **would** like to play Revenant **but can't** due to game design and are _forced_ to play something else which is _not as much fun as Revenant_ to them but else they get kicked or harrassed.).

 

Excelsior.

[reddie.5861]

> @"Zedek.8932" said:

> > @"Turk.5460" said:

> > > @"TanksK.4795" said:

> > > What's the point of playing other professions other than fun?

> >

> > What.

> >

> > This is a video game, your decisions should *always* be what is most fun to you.

> > ???????????????

> > ???????????????

> > What.

>

> I think he means that people would play profession X over Y because X is stronger but they HAVE to play their less desired profession even though it's not fun to them simply by the lack of [insert reason, e.g. damage or playstyle].

> And that is a pretty good statement, as I used it too (I know people **would** like to play Revenant **but can't** due to game design and are _forced_ to play something else which is _not as much fun as Revenant_ to them but else they get kicked or harrassed.).

>

> Excelsior.

nono u get forced cus of braindead people every1 knows u can do any content in this game with any given class and any given traits.

yes u might kill your raid 1 min later or u might do ur fractals a fraction slower but it doesnt change the end effect. youll get it done its the people to blame.

[Crinn.7864]

> @"Turk.5460" said:

> > @"TanksK.4795" said:

> > What's the point of playing other professions other than fun?

>

> What.

>

> This is a video game, your decisions should *always* be what is most fun to you.

> ???????????????

> ???????????????

> What.

 

What is fun for you might not be fun for the rest of the group, and if it isn't fun for the rest of the group you're going to get kicked which means no fun for you.

[Turk.5460]

> @"Crinn.7864" said:

> > @"Turk.5460" said:

> > > @"TanksK.4795" said:

> > > What's the point of playing other professions other than fun?

> >

> > What.

> >

> > This is a video game, your decisions should *always* be what is most fun to you.

> > ???????????????

> > ???????????????

> > What.

>

> What is fun for you might not be fun for the rest of the group, and if it isn't fun for the rest of the group you're going to get kicked which means no fun for you.

 

Sounds like they need to find less kitten-y people to play with...

[Kallist.5917]

Its because Anet wanted to bring back the Thief's song.