Racial/Cultural skills rebalance

[ProtoGunner.4953]

It second this, race should matter, they should be little useful things, that can make life easier, but not the huge game changer for a raid boss etc.

 

To the community. GW2 players are such naysayers, it's unbelievable, and they always answer for the devs who say: they don't have resources and 7 years ago they said this and that. I remind this community of the 'dead horse' called mounts and voilà there they are and - despite the huge concerns and reservations of many players ('cluttering the screen', 'we don't have to copy other MMOs', 'there are waypoints' etc.) - the response was hugely positive.

 

There is nothing set in stone and they will introduce new stuff as additional features how ever they make it. I don't think it will be racial skills but who knows.

[Illconceived Was Na.9781]

> @"ProtoGunner.4953" said:

> To the community. GW2 players are such naysayers, it's unbelievable, and they always answer for the devs who say: they don't have resources and 7 years ago they said this and that.

People are not saying "ANet doesn't have resources." They are saying that ANet is a business and as a business, they can't do all the things that fans want. They have to balance costs against benefits. If something is nice to have, but costs more than something that is fundamental, which do you think ANet should spend resources on?

 

> I remind this community of the 'dead horse' called mounts and voilà there they are and - despite the huge concerns and reservations of many players ('cluttering the screen', 'we don't have to copy other MMOs', 'there are waypoints' etc.) - the response was hugely positive.

Except that ANet never said there wouldn't be mounts. Apparently, and unknown to any of us, they had planned on mounts from the beginning. They had to work on the tech to implement the sort of mounts they thought the game deserved.

And you're right: because they didn't just stick something in the game that (some) fans demanded, we ended up with a feature that has had a hugely positive response.

 

> There is nothing set in stone and they will introduce new stuff as additional features how ever they make it. I don't think it will be racial skills but who knows.

Of course nothing is set in stone. They could change their mind about anything or everything. So all we can go by is what they have said about how they view what's important. And they have said, more than once, that they do not want cultural skills to be competitive with others; they want, instead, for the skills just to be colorful.

 

The devs mostly don't comment on feature requests. When they do, it's because the answer is "no" or they also want the feature (and can't figure out how to make it happen soon) or that it's about ready for release.

In the case of mounts, they said nothing. In the case of changing from "worlds" to "alliances," they said nothing until they had a solid plan.

 

We don't know what the devs are thinking most of the time. In the case of cultural skills, we don't have to guess, because they've already told us how they feel.

 

[ugrakarma.9416]

in neverwinter theres metas around races, i never see a problem. Wasnt a end of world, for less 5% critical if u pickup the "wrong race". I think is more dumb spend resources to make skills, purposely not to be used. So why not delete it once for all, instead?

[DragonSlayer.1087]

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/35483/pve-race-skills#latest

[Oglaf.1074]

> @"JDub.1530" said:> > @"crepuscular.9047" said:> > i would personally definetly like to see them reworked to bring a bit more diversity to build craft, but after all these years it seems anet totally gave up on them> > > >

> > > > > @"Tekoneiric.6817" said:> > > I always though calling it race or racial is a bit odd given that Norn, Charr, Humans, Sylvari and Asura are different species not races. I think cultures and cultural skills would be better generic terms. Calling them cultures would open up to possibly playing different cultures of the same species such as Tyrian/Olmakhan Charr, Tyrian/Elonian/Canthan Human, Pale/other Tree Sylvari, etc. Each could have their own cultural skills. GW1 allowed playing different human cultures with the different expansions. It'd probably to much for them to do that now giving all the lines of dialog that would need to be recorded and story branches. Maybe it could happen with an expansion.> > > > from LiveScience> > > Race is associated with biology, whereas ethnicity is associated with culture. > > > > > > In biology, races are genetically distinct populations within the same species; they typically have relatively minor morphological and genetic differences.> > > > so...> > a Charr is a species> > Tyrian/Olmakhan Charr are races> > Flame Leigon can consider a different culture since they have a different belief> > We also have the term "human race". For all we know, if earth had multiple sapient species that weren't human, we'd refer to them as races too. Heck, referring to them as a "species" might be considered offensive in common non-scientific speech, implying they are more akin to animals.Everyone who is even the slightest scientifically literate knows that the "human race" is a misnomer of the "human species", so...Also, what's so offensive with being compared to animals? We are animals in every sense of the word.

[derd.6413]

> @"Oglaf.1074" said:> > @"JDub.1530" said:> > > @"crepuscular.9047" said:> > > i would personally definetly like to see them reworked to bring a bit more diversity to build craft, but after all these years it seems anet totally gave up on them> > > > > >

> > > > > > > @"Tekoneiric.6817" said:> > > > I always though calling it race or racial is a bit odd given that Norn, Charr, Humans, Sylvari and Asura are different species not races. I think cultures and cultural skills would be better generic terms. Calling them cultures would open up to possibly playing different cultures of the same species such as Tyrian/Olmakhan Charr, Tyrian/Elonian/Canthan Human, Pale/other Tree Sylvari, etc. Each could have their own cultural skills. GW1 allowed playing different human cultures with the different expansions. It'd probably to much for them to do that now giving all the lines of dialog that would need to be recorded and story branches. Maybe it could happen with an expansion.> > > > > > from LiveScience> > > > Race is associated with biology, whereas ethnicity is associated with culture. > > > > > > > > In biology, races are genetically distinct populations within the same species; they typically have relatively minor morphological and genetic differences.> > > > > > so...> > > a Charr is a species> > > Tyrian/Olmakhan Charr are races> > > Flame Leigon can consider a different culture since they have a different belief> > > > We also have the term "human race". For all we know, if earth had multiple sapient species that weren't human, we'd refer to them as races too. Heck, referring to them as a "species" might be considered offensive in common non-scientific speech, implying they are more akin to animals.> > Everyone who is even the slightest scientifically literate knows that the "human race" is a misnomer of the "human species", so...> > Also, what's so offensive with being compared to animals? We are animals in every sense of the word.humans are a weird species with weird social customs.

[LucianDK.8615]

infact theyve nerfed racials in a few cases where they became too good, like sylvari

[Dantert.1803]

I would love to have something like a cultural skills rebalance, it is actually something I suggested long ago..

To avoid the problem with the revenant the racial skill could get a new slot and be a mastery. Then we could have the racial skill to be more of an elite thing, more powerful and special.

Still I don't have high hopes for this to become reality, Anet have shown us many times that they have their own views about what is important for the game..

When I bought the game I was hopeful to have a meaningful distinction for each race other than just the look, and there was even if it was thin. Now it is actually non existent :/

I just gave up thinking that Gw2 will ever be how I want it to be, it's not my game anyway

[Syronus.7605]

If Arena Net doesn't want racial skills to affect races having advantages over others these skills might actually be better off removed from the game. But it would be nice if they actually allowed some racial fluff cosmetically, say like rampage allowing Norn to take on their animal forms or allowing plant turrets for Sylvari engineers. Thieves Guild already does this, and I'm not saying all skills should be like this but where appropriate thermatically.

[Tekoneiric.6817]

> @"lokh.2695" said:

 

> I see, so you're looking for an echo chamber. Sure can do....

>

> Wow, awesome sugegstion. ANet should totally do this. So great. I wish racial skills would make balancing harder and would limit races into certain builds/classes for competitive play. Why hasn't this been in the game from the start tbh. Every player with a spark of intelligence has to see that this is the way. Liked and subscribed.

 

Sarcasm how original...

 

I'm not looking for an echo chamber but I'm also not looking to have my suggestion shot down like a slow moving duck during hunting season either. There is such thing as constructive criticism and people who might offer something something more constructive to add to it rather than saying no no no. I rarely post on here because of the people hunting for posts to put down like they are the top rooster who doesn't want anyone else on their roost. I post on other non-game forums where things are way different and way more constructive. I think the negativity is symptomatic of game forums in general because of the level of elitism.

[Oglaf.1074]

> @"Tekoneiric.6817" said:

> > @"lokh.2695" said:

>

> > I see, so you're looking for an echo chamber. Sure can do....

> >

> > Wow, awesome sugegstion. ANet should totally do this. So great. I wish racial skills would make balancing harder and would limit races into certain builds/classes for competitive play. Why hasn't this been in the game from the start tbh. Every player with a spark of intelligence has to see that this is the way. Liked and subscribed.

>

> Sarcasm how original...

>

> I'm not looking for an echo chamber but I'm also not looking to have my suggestion shot down like a slow moving duck during hunting season either.

 

You have to realize you're not the first, nor will you be the last, to suggest this. The short, snarky replies are not out of spite.

 

 

[Tekoneiric.6817]

> @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > @"Tekoneiric.6817" said:

> > > @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:

> > > > @"Tekoneiric.6817" said:

> > > > To all the negative posts; the whole point of rebalancing is to make sure all are equally competitive yet made relevant in the game.

> > > I think you're missing the reason people are saying this isn't going to happen: ANet doesn't want these skills to be _relevant_ in the game. They are meant to be colorful, not useful (although, it turns out that some are indeed useful while leveling up).

> > >

> > > ANet has little enough dev time to devote to balancing; I can't imagine them spending more than the minimum looking at cultural skills except to nerf them if they are too strong.

> >

> > I'm glad you can read the devs minds. As a player I can offer suggestions.

>

> You can offer as many suggestions as you like. Please show me where any body in this thread has said otherwise or has tried to prevent you from doing such so we can report him.

>

> Please don't get touchy with people though who disagree and/or point out reasons as to why your suggestion won't work or won't get picked up by Arnenanet.

>

> A. This suggestion is not unique or new. People as far back as launch were making this. The official respons back then was: racial skills are meant to be cosmetic and funsies to prevent racial bias or necessity in class creation. Games like WoW were intentinally not copied as to prevent what racial skills in that game cause

>

> B. The games balance as a whole is already difficult enough. Adding one extra skill is not a simple addition of work, it's a multiplication and with the amount of racial skills in game a huge undertaking. Writing about balance and actually achieveing it are two very different beasts.

>

> C. Making racial skills in any way viable means they have to be made accessible to all races which automatically voids their initial purpose of being favor without affecting racial choice

>

> D. Removing racial skills from x-amount of content to justify them being useful automatically reduces the value of work which needs to get invested to make them balanced. If you can only use racial skills in open world pve, what use is there for them to be viable? You can already use them in open world pve due to its simplistic nature

>

> You can moan and complain about other posters opinion as much as you want. It doesn't change valid objections to having developer ressources used on something this trivial.

 

Except for the first and last sentences this response is why more constructively critical of the suggestion. I have no problem with what you said with A to D. This is a far cry from your first response to my suggestion although the first and last sentences do hearken back to the intention behind your original response.

[Tekoneiric.6817]

> @"Syronus.7605" said:

> If Arena Net doesn't want racial skills to affect races having advantages over others these skills might actually be better off removed from the game. But it would be nice if they actually allowed some racial fluff cosmetically, say like rampage allowing Norn to take on their animal forms or allowing plant turrets for Sylvari engineers. Thieves Guild already does this, and I'm not saying all skills should be like this but where appropriate thermatically.

 

The fact that they have left them in the game shows that they hold some value to them. There was a large amount of talk at the release of HoT about underwater skills being in the same boat; largely ignored and unwanted by the devs. They got updated and rebalanced recently. It could happen if they see value in them and who knows; they might have not seen previous suggestions about it but a more current post might get noticed and spark some discussion about it in their circles that we aren't privy to.

[Tekoneiric.6817]

> @"Oglaf.1074" said:

 

> You have to realize you're not the first, nor will you be the last, to suggest this. The short, snarky replies are not out of spite.

 

To paraphrase Yoda: Snark is the path to the darkside of the Internet. Snark leads to spite. Spite leads to reprisals. Reprisals lead to anger. Anger leads to hate and so forth.

 

[Illconceived Was Na.9781]

> @"Tekoneiric.6817" said:

> > @"Syronus.7605" said:

> > If Arena Net doesn't want racial skills to affect races having advantages over others these skills might actually be better off removed from the game. But it would be nice if they actually allowed some racial fluff cosmetically, say like rampage allowing Norn to take on their animal forms or allowing plant turrets for Sylvari engineers. Thieves Guild already does this, and I'm not saying all skills should be like this but where appropriate thermatically.

>

> The fact that they have left them in the game shows that they hold some value to them. There was a large amount of talk at the release of HoT about underwater skills being in the same boat; largely ignored and unwanted by the devs. They got updated and rebalanced recently. It could happen if they see value in them and who knows;

 

The difference is that the devs never said they wanted underwater skills to be underpowered. They said that fixing underwater wasn't a priority. In contrast, they have said that cultural skills aren't intended to be competitive with the rest of the skill bar. When they have been, ANet has nerfed them rather than choosing to rebalance.

 

> they might have not seen previous suggestions about it

> but a more current post might get noticed

 

Honestly, I don't object to people bringing up old topics that aren't on the front page any more. There are always new players who have no idea of the history or veterans who feel differently now for one reason or another. I just don't think it's fair to imply that previous discussions were valueless or that this one is somehow more special because someone else started it.

 

> and spark some discussion about it in their circles that we aren't privy to.

The best way to "spark" ANet into discussing something again is bring something new to the discussion, that addresses the concerns that they have already stated. Rehashing the same ideas isn't likely to help. Arguing with people pointing out flaws isn't going to increase the likelihood that ANet will revisit the idea.

 

****

Or to rephrase this in as an actionable suggestion: what sort of changes to cultural skills would satisfy you while ensuring that they will never be optimal for any build? What sort of benefits could they offer that won't increase the complexity of skill balancing the existing profs and elite specs?

 

Personally, I've given this some thought and I've yet to think of something that reduces the future burden on ANet, rather than increases it. There are plenty of fun things that cultural skills could do, but none that seem to solve any existing issues or avoid creating new ones.

[derd.6413]

> @"Tekoneiric.6817" said:

> > @"Syronus.7605" said:

> > If Arena Net doesn't want racial skills to affect races having advantages over others these skills might actually be better off removed from the game. But it would be nice if they actually allowed some racial fluff cosmetically, say like rampage allowing Norn to take on their animal forms or allowing plant turrets for Sylvari engineers. Thieves Guild already does this, and I'm not saying all skills should be like this but where appropriate thermatically.

>

> The fact that they have left them in the game shows that they hold some value to them. There was a large amount of talk at the release of HoT about underwater skills being in the same boat; largely ignored and unwanted by the devs. They got updated and rebalanced recently. It could happen if they see value in them and who knows; they might have not seen previous suggestions about it but a more current post might get noticed and spark some discussion about it in their circles that we aren't privy to.

 

Or they're scared that removing them causes bad juju that will break multiple systems.

[LucianDK.8615]

Think about it, if racials became -good-, then the demand for purchaseable race changes would go through the roof so people could pick the race with 0.5% more dps over all others. or youd see FOTM rerollers going for the 'perfect' race because their current one is 'worthless'. And decrying every other race choice as teh suck and worthless. Now we can choose to play what race we like out of flavor, without having this on top.

 

WoW is a good example of how bad it can go with racials.

[Tekoneiric.6817]

> @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:

 

> ...

 

> Personally, I've given this some thought and I've yet to think of something that reduces the future burden on ANet, rather than increases it. There are plenty of fun things that cultural skills could do, but none that seem to solve any existing issues or avoid creating new ones.

 

Sometimes you have to increase the short term burdeon to make things easier later on. In this case shifting the healing to the health indicator allowing it to multitask and free up a slot. Putting the cultural skills in their own slot would allow them to easily disable them in specific game modes. Also if the cultural skills had their own slot I think people would use them more thus giving them more value in general.

 

Setting up a training system for other cultural skills would make it easy for them incorporate novel skills sets with future stories. As it is there is a random scattering of mastery trained, NPC given and object based one such as the ring in the current LW episode.

 

I do agree with the general premis that cultural skills shouldn't be as or more powerful than elite skills. They should be novel in some why that give a cultural flavor, entertaining and somewhat useful in some situations. It would be nice if they took a look at them to make sure they weren't wofully underpowered or had to high of a recharge time for a given power rating.

 

The main cultural skill I use on my Norn ranger is call snow wurm because it adds a distraction to enemies. I could care less if that one is powered too high because it's just a disposible distraction. It would be nice if the Norn shape-shift skills either had a shorter recharge time or worth the long recharge time they have.

 

If there was a dedicated cultural skill slot which skill would you select in it on your main character?

 

 

 

[Tekoneiric.6817]

> @"LucianDK.8615" said:

> Think about it, if racials became -good-, then the demand for purchaseable race changes would go through the roof so people could pick the race with 0.5% more dps over all others. or youd see FOTM rerollers going for the 'perfect' race because their current one is 'worthless'. And decrying every other race choice as teh suck and worthless. Now we can choose to play what race we like out of flavor, without having this on top.

>

> WoW is a good example of how bad it can go with racials.

 

That wouldn't happen if characters could cross train cultural skills from other cultures. Plus as previously stated it could open up bringing other culture skills into the game also.

[LucianDK.8615]

> @"Tekoneiric.6817" said:

> > @"LucianDK.8615" said:

> > Think about it, if racials became -good-, then the demand for purchaseable race changes would go through the roof so people could pick the race with 0.5% more dps over all others. or youd see FOTM rerollers going for the 'perfect' race because their current one is 'worthless'. And decrying every other race choice as teh suck and worthless. Now we can choose to play what race we like out of flavor, without having this on top.

> >

> > WoW is a good example of how bad it can go with racials.

>

> That wouldn't happen if characters could cross train cultural skills from other cultures. Plus as previously stated it could open up bringing other culture skills into the game also.

 

And at that point it ceases being culture skills if anyone can train them.

[derd.6413]

making racial skill accesible to all races kinda defeat their point. (Aka add flavor to a race)

[Zelanard.5806]

@"derd.6413"

@"LucianDK.8615"

You need to go play Guild Wars: Eye of the North before saying any more on that topic xD

[Tekoneiric.6817]

I've always thought one thing that would be amusing with the Norn snow wurm became wild attacking anything instead of it dying on it's own if not killed. I know it wouldn't happen because of the trolling that would happen. It's still an amusing thought.

[derd.6413]

> @"Zelanard.5806" said:

> @"derd.6413"

> @"LucianDK.8615"

> You need to go play Guild Wars: Eye of the North before saying any more on that topic xD

 

In gw1 not giving the transformations to humans would be a mechanic ppl couldn't play with (also if i remever correctly it was only accessible in certain areas)

 

In gw2 giving transformations to other races would be another reason to not play a norn.

[ProtoGunner.4953]

I can second this emotion, I was a clicker in WoW and Guild Wars 1, but since GW2 I bought a Logitech G600 and it's sooo much better. Especially, since GW2 is much more action/movement oriented. Good options like snap AoE to target and activate on button release made it much better (after HoT).