Lalainnia.3598 Posted July 30, 2018 Share Posted July 30, 2018 Lol ppl would still use chrono even if quickness and alacrity were auto applied in raids and they removed their insane boon share output the thing is just great for tanking between shield4 with heal signet, distortion, best pull insane cc sword 2. They would just slot more stuff to make them even better at tanking aegis puddle, signet of illusions to reset distort stability mantra or w/e else is super good on Mesmer for solely tanking. Clearly the fix for all this though is to auto apply Quickness and Alacrity in Raids lol! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aeolus.3615 Posted July 30, 2018 Share Posted July 30, 2018 > @"zealex.9410" said: > > @"LadyKitty.6120" said: > > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > > > > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Glott.7239" said: > > > > > > > > > > > Now i think we can all agree that Chrono boon spam needs to get nerfed bigtime. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Do we? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Don't get me wrong, I fully support and agree that people want multiple tank specs and possibilities, I'm just wondering if everyone asking for chrono nerfs has thought this through to the end. If we operate under following assumptions: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - there will always be 1 class which best performs a certain role > > > > > > > > > > - the limiting factor in raid setups is currently the support classes > > > > > > > > > > - the most flexibility for a meta group will be at best for damage builds > > > > > > > > > > - the more support classes take up spots, the less place for damage classes there is thus making encounters harder > > > > > > > > > > - having multiple different setups for different bosses forces people to play more than 1 class > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Given all those factors, is nerfing chrono REALLY in the best interest for PUG raids or semi casual raid groups? Not talking static or very hardcore groups since those will always adapt and use the most powerful tools. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Let us assume chrono got nerfed so far that a new tank were required (which would be more than fine from a balance point of view), here is the likely scenario as to how it will unfold given current balance: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > **A.)** which ever class best role compresses the most abilities with being able to tank will become the future tank. It is highly unlikely that multiple classes will be equally good at this, thus 1 new tank will become meta > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > **B.)** should the new meta tank from A not be the best tank for all bosses, a second tank for bosses were the first tank does not work would get picked. Effectively now raid groups need to use 2 different tanks to clear all raid wings. This is immense extra effort and coordination for PUG and semi-static groups compared to now. Imagine Deimos or Dhuum with their unique roles given to party members just for multiple bosses > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > **C.)** if the meta shifts from 4 support classes back to 5 (as it was during HoT), the pressure on damage dealers will again be higher thus making possible damage choices more restrictive once again > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The net result is a more complex, more effort requiring meta and group composition. Please realize 1 thing: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > **class balance and ease of raids as well as accessibility are two very different things** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Disclaimer: I'm not protecting chrono because I main the class. I've mained mesmer since the beginning of the game through all of its bugs, under powered pve messes, etc. I have multiple characters of every class fully geared and have legendary armor and ascended armor coming out of my ears (12 sets, 7k magnitite shards, etc.). I'm fine with switching to any other tank, support or damage dealer as need be (and I don't only play chrono to begin with as every raider should at least play 3 classes minimum). I'm just not buying into the entire: once chrono is nerfed all will be well kitten that some people are selling. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Unfortunately, chrono needs to get toned down and once that happens it will either get replaced by something more effective, or the raid meta will become more restrictive once again. Be aware of that. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As far as viable tanks which can do the job, there is a few and the most effective ones have been mentioned in this thread. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Having multiple choices for tanks wont be that bad, everyone has been asking anet to do it for dps for years and now we are quite close to that and its nice. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nerfing chrono but only just so that its not leaps and bounds superior will outweight the negatives of having to prob run more than 1 classes. Elite specs will keep increasing we cant just stay with the support spot being locked for chrono. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There is no pure "tank role". **There is damage, boons and heal** (if needed) and which ever class can provide one of those 3 aspects the best while tanking (thus giving up the least amount of stat points while providing one of those 3 roles) is tank. For the bazillionth time, it's called role compression. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Chrono is not a "tank". Chrono is a boon support first and gets to play tank on some boss fights since there is few downsides to one of the chronos taking gear with toughness on it (since his boon up-time is almost not affected). Nerf the boon support of chrono and he drops out of the meta (which can be discussed but that's not the issue here). There is no:"this class will remain as tank" in this game. You have to bring one of the 3 aforementioned aspects. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Idk why you stuck so much in the word "tank" thats one aspect of the whole thing idd. You can nerf chrono's cc/ boons/ healing or w/e and they dont need to drop out of the meta, it can be part of the choices you have. It just sould not be the only meta. My issue isnt wether they will take it to tank in the fights that have that function my issue is that it should be nerfed thats what im discussing. > > > > > > > > > > > > That can be discussed, but reducing chronos boon share will result in 1 of 2 possible scenarios (as I had mentioned earlier already): > > > > > > > > > > > > A. it drops out of the meta since it gets outperformed by another class or setup (by chrono not providing permanent up-time) > > > > > > B. it does not drop out of the meta because it can still provide permanent alacrity and quickness (the other boons are insignificant) > > > > > > > > > > > > There is no middle ground. That's what meta means. MOST EFFICIENT TACTIC AVAILABLE. The chance of getting two classes exactly equally balanced is close to 0. The only way to attempt to balance is to allow both classes to provide the same quickness and alacrity (permanent). The only way to create an alternative to chrono is either have revenant or guardian provide both boons, or remove alacrity and reduce the amount of required boons to bring down to 1. > > > > > > > > > > > > This entire thread about tanks is what is confusing for people. Many believe that there is this 1 tank per raid group. There isn't. There is only boon supply (quickness, alacrity, fury and might), there is damage and there is heal. > > > > > > > > > > Its pretty similar with the dps thing and eles. I dont care if chrono is the best i dont want it to be the best by a land slide. Since they devs are keen on having quickness stacker and alac stackers then i suggest u hit chrono's other good things. > > > > > > > > > > Ik it will never be perfectly balanced but what we got for dps can happen for boon supports as well. > > > > > > > > Except that dps have 6 slots and boon support 2. The leeway for dps is quite low, meaning you don't need meta dps to succeed. Boons you need 100% uptime. Hitting chronos other "good things" will not do anything about getting it out of the meta. > > > > > > Im pretty sure fb and rene can hit perma uptime on alac and quickness. > > > > Rene can keep up about 80% alacrity uptime for whole squad alone (search for Matt/KC/MO boonbot teef+alacrity rene vids for good example) and condi-FB can keep up full quickness and more by using firebrand runes instead of renegade's, sigil of concentration on weapon and toxic maintenance oil. (That actually throws condi-FB way above what's needed but whatever.) > > According to fennec it can give perma alac might and heal better than druid. Fb tho has the issue with its mantras aplying to the 5 nearest ppl instead of the subgroup (apparently). > > Maybe both can be combined to work together saving stats for more damage? Another issue with rev is that mobs are just healthpools with damage and some aoes, they dont remove boon not pusnish players besides their direct/aoe damage, wich most of times is countered by stacking in 1 place... So direct heal where healign rev shines isnt necessary, everythin is "easilly" covered with minor direct heals and heal regen boon stacking. Huge healthpools with poor mechanics is just a placebo for Anet made casual think they did a great job(game is not ment to be that of a challange...)..... wich ends in stack n spam gimmicks with alot of boon stacking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TexZero.7910 Posted July 30, 2018 Share Posted July 30, 2018 > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > That's what meta means. MOST EFFICIENT TACTIC AVAILABLE. No. Meta comes from the term Metagaming which is described as knowing the currently optimal strategies gaming. It has nothing to do with said acronym and whoever started spreading that needs to go back about 40 years and realize their mistakes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aetatis.5418 Posted July 30, 2018 Share Posted July 30, 2018 > @"Aeolus.3615" said: > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > @"LadyKitty.6120" said: > > > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > > > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Glott.7239" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > Now i think we can all agree that Chrono boon spam needs to get nerfed bigtime. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Do we? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Don't get me wrong, I fully support and agree that people want multiple tank specs and possibilities, I'm just wondering if everyone asking for chrono nerfs has thought this through to the end. If we operate under following assumptions: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - there will always be 1 class which best performs a certain role > > > > > > > > > > > - the limiting factor in raid setups is currently the support classes > > > > > > > > > > > - the most flexibility for a meta group will be at best for damage builds > > > > > > > > > > > - the more support classes take up spots, the less place for damage classes there is thus making encounters harder > > > > > > > > > > > - having multiple different setups for different bosses forces people to play more than 1 class > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Given all those factors, is nerfing chrono REALLY in the best interest for PUG raids or semi casual raid groups? Not talking static or very hardcore groups since those will always adapt and use the most powerful tools. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Let us assume chrono got nerfed so far that a new tank were required (which would be more than fine from a balance point of view), here is the likely scenario as to how it will unfold given current balance: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > **A.)** which ever class best role compresses the most abilities with being able to tank will become the future tank. It is highly unlikely that multiple classes will be equally good at this, thus 1 new tank will become meta > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > **B.)** should the new meta tank from A not be the best tank for all bosses, a second tank for bosses were the first tank does not work would get picked. Effectively now raid groups need to use 2 different tanks to clear all raid wings. This is immense extra effort and coordination for PUG and semi-static groups compared to now. Imagine Deimos or Dhuum with their unique roles given to party members just for multiple bosses > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > **C.)** if the meta shifts from 4 support classes back to 5 (as it was during HoT), the pressure on damage dealers will again be higher thus making possible damage choices more restrictive once again > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The net result is a more complex, more effort requiring meta and group composition. Please realize 1 thing: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > **class balance and ease of raids as well as accessibility are two very different things** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Disclaimer: I'm not protecting chrono because I main the class. I've mained mesmer since the beginning of the game through all of its bugs, under powered pve messes, etc. I have multiple characters of every class fully geared and have legendary armor and ascended armor coming out of my ears (12 sets, 7k magnitite shards, etc.). I'm fine with switching to any other tank, support or damage dealer as need be (and I don't only play chrono to begin with as every raider should at least play 3 classes minimum). I'm just not buying into the entire: once chrono is nerfed all will be well kitten that some people are selling. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Unfortunately, chrono needs to get toned down and once that happens it will either get replaced by something more effective, or the raid meta will become more restrictive once again. Be aware of that. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As far as viable tanks which can do the job, there is a few and the most effective ones have been mentioned in this thread. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Having multiple choices for tanks wont be that bad, everyone has been asking anet to do it for dps for years and now we are quite close to that and its nice. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nerfing chrono but only just so that its not leaps and bounds superior will outweight the negatives of having to prob run more than 1 classes. Elite specs will keep increasing we cant just stay with the support spot being locked for chrono. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There is no pure "tank role". **There is damage, boons and heal** (if needed) and which ever class can provide one of those 3 aspects the best while tanking (thus giving up the least amount of stat points while providing one of those 3 roles) is tank. For the bazillionth time, it's called role compression. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Chrono is not a "tank". Chrono is a boon support first and gets to play tank on some boss fights since there is few downsides to one of the chronos taking gear with toughness on it (since his boon up-time is almost not affected). Nerf the boon support of chrono and he drops out of the meta (which can be discussed but that's not the issue here). There is no:"this class will remain as tank" in this game. You have to bring one of the 3 aforementioned aspects. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Idk why you stuck so much in the word "tank" thats one aspect of the whole thing idd. You can nerf chrono's cc/ boons/ healing or w/e and they dont need to drop out of the meta, it can be part of the choices you have. It just sould not be the only meta. My issue isnt wether they will take it to tank in the fights that have that function my issue is that it should be nerfed thats what im discussing. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That can be discussed, but reducing chronos boon share will result in 1 of 2 possible scenarios (as I had mentioned earlier already): > > > > > > > > > > > > > > A. it drops out of the meta since it gets outperformed by another class or setup (by chrono not providing permanent up-time) > > > > > > > B. it does not drop out of the meta because it can still provide permanent alacrity and quickness (the other boons are insignificant) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There is no middle ground. That's what meta means. MOST EFFICIENT TACTIC AVAILABLE. The chance of getting two classes exactly equally balanced is close to 0. The only way to attempt to balance is to allow both classes to provide the same quickness and alacrity (permanent). The only way to create an alternative to chrono is either have revenant or guardian provide both boons, or remove alacrity and reduce the amount of required boons to bring down to 1. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This entire thread about tanks is what is confusing for people. Many believe that there is this 1 tank per raid group. There isn't. There is only boon supply (quickness, alacrity, fury and might), there is damage and there is heal. > > > > > > > > > > > > Its pretty similar with the dps thing and eles. I dont care if chrono is the best i dont want it to be the best by a land slide. Since they devs are keen on having quickness stacker and alac stackers then i suggest u hit chrono's other good things. > > > > > > > > > > > > Ik it will never be perfectly balanced but what we got for dps can happen for boon supports as well. > > > > > > > > > > Except that dps have 6 slots and boon support 2. The leeway for dps is quite low, meaning you don't need meta dps to succeed. Boons you need 100% uptime. Hitting chronos other "good things" will not do anything about getting it out of the meta. > > > > > > > > Im pretty sure fb and rene can hit perma uptime on alac and quickness. > > > > > > Rene can keep up about 80% alacrity uptime for whole squad alone (search for Matt/KC/MO boonbot teef+alacrity rene vids for good example) and condi-FB can keep up full quickness and more by using firebrand runes instead of renegade's, sigil of concentration on weapon and toxic maintenance oil. (That actually throws condi-FB way above what's needed but whatever.) > > > > According to fennec it can give perma alac might and heal better than druid. Fb tho has the issue with its mantras aplying to the 5 nearest ppl instead of the subgroup (apparently). > > > > > > **Maybe both can be combined to work together saving stats for more damage?** > Another issue with rev is that mobs are just healthpools with damage and some aoes, they dont remove boon not pusnish players besides their direct/aoe damage, wich most of times is countered by stacking in 1 place... > So direct heal where healign rev shines isnt necessary, everythin is "easilly" covered with minor direct heals and heal regen boon stacking. > > Huge healthpools with poor mechanics is just a placebo for Anet made casual think they did a great job(game is not ment to be that of a challange...)..... wich ends in stack n spam gimmicks with alot of boon stacking. plaguedoctors (main vit and conditiondmg; minor heal and concentration). noth are capable of doing slightly more dps than chrono. so the combo could work at some point Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
insistent.8369 Posted July 30, 2018 Share Posted July 30, 2018 This the reasons why i dont really bother trying raid anymore, the cultist meta bs. No one care about trying anything else, not long ago whe wiped on a boss multiple times and the druid left, i told them i could heal with my scrapper healer, they said no, but eventually they let me do it since no druid would come by, guess what, average boss hp before wipe was 75%, first try when i was healing, 6%. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zealex.9410 Posted July 30, 2018 Share Posted July 30, 2018 > @"Aeolus.3615" said: > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > @"LadyKitty.6120" said: > > > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > > > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Glott.7239" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > Now i think we can all agree that Chrono boon spam needs to get nerfed bigtime. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Do we? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Don't get me wrong, I fully support and agree that people want multiple tank specs and possibilities, I'm just wondering if everyone asking for chrono nerfs has thought this through to the end. If we operate under following assumptions: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - there will always be 1 class which best performs a certain role > > > > > > > > > > > - the limiting factor in raid setups is currently the support classes > > > > > > > > > > > - the most flexibility for a meta group will be at best for damage builds > > > > > > > > > > > - the more support classes take up spots, the less place for damage classes there is thus making encounters harder > > > > > > > > > > > - having multiple different setups for different bosses forces people to play more than 1 class > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Given all those factors, is nerfing chrono REALLY in the best interest for PUG raids or semi casual raid groups? Not talking static or very hardcore groups since those will always adapt and use the most powerful tools. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Let us assume chrono got nerfed so far that a new tank were required (which would be more than fine from a balance point of view), here is the likely scenario as to how it will unfold given current balance: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > **A.)** which ever class best role compresses the most abilities with being able to tank will become the future tank. It is highly unlikely that multiple classes will be equally good at this, thus 1 new tank will become meta > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > **B.)** should the new meta tank from A not be the best tank for all bosses, a second tank for bosses were the first tank does not work would get picked. Effectively now raid groups need to use 2 different tanks to clear all raid wings. This is immense extra effort and coordination for PUG and semi-static groups compared to now. Imagine Deimos or Dhuum with their unique roles given to party members just for multiple bosses > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > **C.)** if the meta shifts from 4 support classes back to 5 (as it was during HoT), the pressure on damage dealers will again be higher thus making possible damage choices more restrictive once again > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The net result is a more complex, more effort requiring meta and group composition. Please realize 1 thing: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > **class balance and ease of raids as well as accessibility are two very different things** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Disclaimer: I'm not protecting chrono because I main the class. I've mained mesmer since the beginning of the game through all of its bugs, under powered pve messes, etc. I have multiple characters of every class fully geared and have legendary armor and ascended armor coming out of my ears (12 sets, 7k magnitite shards, etc.). I'm fine with switching to any other tank, support or damage dealer as need be (and I don't only play chrono to begin with as every raider should at least play 3 classes minimum). I'm just not buying into the entire: once chrono is nerfed all will be well kitten that some people are selling. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Unfortunately, chrono needs to get toned down and once that happens it will either get replaced by something more effective, or the raid meta will become more restrictive once again. Be aware of that. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As far as viable tanks which can do the job, there is a few and the most effective ones have been mentioned in this thread. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Having multiple choices for tanks wont be that bad, everyone has been asking anet to do it for dps for years and now we are quite close to that and its nice. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nerfing chrono but only just so that its not leaps and bounds superior will outweight the negatives of having to prob run more than 1 classes. Elite specs will keep increasing we cant just stay with the support spot being locked for chrono. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There is no pure "tank role". **There is damage, boons and heal** (if needed) and which ever class can provide one of those 3 aspects the best while tanking (thus giving up the least amount of stat points while providing one of those 3 roles) is tank. For the bazillionth time, it's called role compression. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Chrono is not a "tank". Chrono is a boon support first and gets to play tank on some boss fights since there is few downsides to one of the chronos taking gear with toughness on it (since his boon up-time is almost not affected). Nerf the boon support of chrono and he drops out of the meta (which can be discussed but that's not the issue here). There is no:"this class will remain as tank" in this game. You have to bring one of the 3 aforementioned aspects. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Idk why you stuck so much in the word "tank" thats one aspect of the whole thing idd. You can nerf chrono's cc/ boons/ healing or w/e and they dont need to drop out of the meta, it can be part of the choices you have. It just sould not be the only meta. My issue isnt wether they will take it to tank in the fights that have that function my issue is that it should be nerfed thats what im discussing. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That can be discussed, but reducing chronos boon share will result in 1 of 2 possible scenarios (as I had mentioned earlier already): > > > > > > > > > > > > > > A. it drops out of the meta since it gets outperformed by another class or setup (by chrono not providing permanent up-time) > > > > > > > B. it does not drop out of the meta because it can still provide permanent alacrity and quickness (the other boons are insignificant) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There is no middle ground. That's what meta means. MOST EFFICIENT TACTIC AVAILABLE. The chance of getting two classes exactly equally balanced is close to 0. The only way to attempt to balance is to allow both classes to provide the same quickness and alacrity (permanent). The only way to create an alternative to chrono is either have revenant or guardian provide both boons, or remove alacrity and reduce the amount of required boons to bring down to 1. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This entire thread about tanks is what is confusing for people. Many believe that there is this 1 tank per raid group. There isn't. There is only boon supply (quickness, alacrity, fury and might), there is damage and there is heal. > > > > > > > > > > > > Its pretty similar with the dps thing and eles. I dont care if chrono is the best i dont want it to be the best by a land slide. Since they devs are keen on having quickness stacker and alac stackers then i suggest u hit chrono's other good things. > > > > > > > > > > > > Ik it will never be perfectly balanced but what we got for dps can happen for boon supports as well. > > > > > > > > > > Except that dps have 6 slots and boon support 2. The leeway for dps is quite low, meaning you don't need meta dps to succeed. Boons you need 100% uptime. Hitting chronos other "good things" will not do anything about getting it out of the meta. > > > > > > > > Im pretty sure fb and rene can hit perma uptime on alac and quickness. > > > > > > Rene can keep up about 80% alacrity uptime for whole squad alone (search for Matt/KC/MO boonbot teef+alacrity rene vids for good example) and condi-FB can keep up full quickness and more by using firebrand runes instead of renegade's, sigil of concentration on weapon and toxic maintenance oil. (That actually throws condi-FB way above what's needed but whatever.) > > > > According to fennec it can give perma alac might and heal better than druid. Fb tho has the issue with its mantras aplying to the 5 nearest ppl instead of the subgroup (apparently). > > > > > > Maybe both can be combined to work together saving stats for more damage? > Another issue with rev is that mobs are just healthpools with damage and some aoes, they dont remove boon not pusnish players besides their direct/aoe damage, wich most of times is countered by stacking in 1 place... > So direct heal where healign rev shines isnt necessary, everythin is "easilly" covered with minor direct heals and heal regen boon stacking. > > Huge healthpools with poor mechanics is just a placebo for Anet made casual think they did a great job(game is not ment to be that of a challange...)..... wich ends in stack n spam gimmicks with alot of boon stacking. Rev can work fine with that too, has good healing of demand and a strong dot :/ It also can replace a druid and chrono can drop shit for more dmg. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zealex.9410 Posted July 30, 2018 Share Posted July 30, 2018 > @"Aetatis.5418" said: > > @"Aeolus.3615" said: > > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > > @"LadyKitty.6120" said: > > > > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > > > > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Glott.7239" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > Now i think we can all agree that Chrono boon spam needs to get nerfed bigtime. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Do we? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Don't get me wrong, I fully support and agree that people want multiple tank specs and possibilities, I'm just wondering if everyone asking for chrono nerfs has thought this through to the end. If we operate under following assumptions: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - there will always be 1 class which best performs a certain role > > > > > > > > > > > > - the limiting factor in raid setups is currently the support classes > > > > > > > > > > > > - the most flexibility for a meta group will be at best for damage builds > > > > > > > > > > > > - the more support classes take up spots, the less place for damage classes there is thus making encounters harder > > > > > > > > > > > > - having multiple different setups for different bosses forces people to play more than 1 class > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Given all those factors, is nerfing chrono REALLY in the best interest for PUG raids or semi casual raid groups? Not talking static or very hardcore groups since those will always adapt and use the most powerful tools. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Let us assume chrono got nerfed so far that a new tank were required (which would be more than fine from a balance point of view), here is the likely scenario as to how it will unfold given current balance: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > **A.)** which ever class best role compresses the most abilities with being able to tank will become the future tank. It is highly unlikely that multiple classes will be equally good at this, thus 1 new tank will become meta > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > **B.)** should the new meta tank from A not be the best tank for all bosses, a second tank for bosses were the first tank does not work would get picked. Effectively now raid groups need to use 2 different tanks to clear all raid wings. This is immense extra effort and coordination for PUG and semi-static groups compared to now. Imagine Deimos or Dhuum with their unique roles given to party members just for multiple bosses > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > **C.)** if the meta shifts from 4 support classes back to 5 (as it was during HoT), the pressure on damage dealers will again be higher thus making possible damage choices more restrictive once again > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The net result is a more complex, more effort requiring meta and group composition. Please realize 1 thing: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > **class balance and ease of raids as well as accessibility are two very different things** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Disclaimer: I'm not protecting chrono because I main the class. I've mained mesmer since the beginning of the game through all of its bugs, under powered pve messes, etc. I have multiple characters of every class fully geared and have legendary armor and ascended armor coming out of my ears (12 sets, 7k magnitite shards, etc.). I'm fine with switching to any other tank, support or damage dealer as need be (and I don't only play chrono to begin with as every raider should at least play 3 classes minimum). I'm just not buying into the entire: once chrono is nerfed all will be well kitten that some people are selling. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Unfortunately, chrono needs to get toned down and once that happens it will either get replaced by something more effective, or the raid meta will become more restrictive once again. Be aware of that. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As far as viable tanks which can do the job, there is a few and the most effective ones have been mentioned in this thread. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Having multiple choices for tanks wont be that bad, everyone has been asking anet to do it for dps for years and now we are quite close to that and its nice. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nerfing chrono but only just so that its not leaps and bounds superior will outweight the negatives of having to prob run more than 1 classes. Elite specs will keep increasing we cant just stay with the support spot being locked for chrono. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There is no pure "tank role". **There is damage, boons and heal** (if needed) and which ever class can provide one of those 3 aspects the best while tanking (thus giving up the least amount of stat points while providing one of those 3 roles) is tank. For the bazillionth time, it's called role compression. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Chrono is not a "tank". Chrono is a boon support first and gets to play tank on some boss fights since there is few downsides to one of the chronos taking gear with toughness on it (since his boon up-time is almost not affected). Nerf the boon support of chrono and he drops out of the meta (which can be discussed but that's not the issue here). There is no:"this class will remain as tank" in this game. You have to bring one of the 3 aforementioned aspects. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Idk why you stuck so much in the word "tank" thats one aspect of the whole thing idd. You can nerf chrono's cc/ boons/ healing or w/e and they dont need to drop out of the meta, it can be part of the choices you have. It just sould not be the only meta. My issue isnt wether they will take it to tank in the fights that have that function my issue is that it should be nerfed thats what im discussing. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That can be discussed, but reducing chronos boon share will result in 1 of 2 possible scenarios (as I had mentioned earlier already): > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > A. it drops out of the meta since it gets outperformed by another class or setup (by chrono not providing permanent up-time) > > > > > > > > B. it does not drop out of the meta because it can still provide permanent alacrity and quickness (the other boons are insignificant) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There is no middle ground. That's what meta means. MOST EFFICIENT TACTIC AVAILABLE. The chance of getting two classes exactly equally balanced is close to 0. The only way to attempt to balance is to allow both classes to provide the same quickness and alacrity (permanent). The only way to create an alternative to chrono is either have revenant or guardian provide both boons, or remove alacrity and reduce the amount of required boons to bring down to 1. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This entire thread about tanks is what is confusing for people. Many believe that there is this 1 tank per raid group. There isn't. There is only boon supply (quickness, alacrity, fury and might), there is damage and there is heal. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Its pretty similar with the dps thing and eles. I dont care if chrono is the best i dont want it to be the best by a land slide. Since they devs are keen on having quickness stacker and alac stackers then i suggest u hit chrono's other good things. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ik it will never be perfectly balanced but what we got for dps can happen for boon supports as well. > > > > > > > > > > > > Except that dps have 6 slots and boon support 2. The leeway for dps is quite low, meaning you don't need meta dps to succeed. Boons you need 100% uptime. Hitting chronos other "good things" will not do anything about getting it out of the meta. > > > > > > > > > > Im pretty sure fb and rene can hit perma uptime on alac and quickness. > > > > > > > > Rene can keep up about 80% alacrity uptime for whole squad alone (search for Matt/KC/MO boonbot teef+alacrity rene vids for good example) and condi-FB can keep up full quickness and more by using firebrand runes instead of renegade's, sigil of concentration on weapon and toxic maintenance oil. (That actually throws condi-FB way above what's needed but whatever.) > > > > > > According to fennec it can give perma alac might and heal better than druid. Fb tho has the issue with its mantras aplying to the 5 nearest ppl instead of the subgroup (apparently). > > > > > > > > > > **Maybe both can be combined to work together saving stats for more damage?** > > Another issue with rev is that mobs are just healthpools with damage and some aoes, they dont remove boon not pusnish players besides their direct/aoe damage, wich most of times is countered by stacking in 1 place... > > So direct heal where healign rev shines isnt necessary, everythin is "easilly" covered with minor direct heals and heal regen boon stacking. > > > > Huge healthpools with poor mechanics is just a placebo for Anet made casual think they did a great job(game is not ment to be that of a challange...)..... wich ends in stack n spam gimmicks with alot of boon stacking. > > plaguedoctors (main vit and conditiondmg; minor heal and concentration). > noth are capable of doing slightly more dps than chrono. so the combo could work at some point No stat set can make fb work rn its the function of its mantras that fuck fb over. 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Silent The Gray.3091 Posted July 30, 2018 Share Posted July 30, 2018 > @"darksoverign.5360" said: > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > I think you have it wrong. There are multiple specs and builds that can tank as well if not better than chrono. They just dont buff as well. > > that's the exact issue there should be a class that can compete with crono at least don't get me wrong I love my crono tank but I want something more than the buff bot it is. > its just thematically funny to me that a cloth user tanks coming from wow lol I've officially seen every amour class tank now lol (aside from mail in wow) > if they do give us a new tank it will still probably be dwarfed by crono (lol I use an asura crono btw) XD > GW1 had Assassin tanks which we referred to as Terra's, it's a very similar concept. I'm sorry that it feels foreign to you, and hope you can still enjoy the game regardless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyninja.2954 Posted July 30, 2018 Share Posted July 30, 2018 > @"TexZero.7910" said: > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > That's what meta means. MOST EFFICIENT TACTIC AVAILABLE. > > No. Meta comes from the term Metagaming which is described as knowing the currently optimal strategies gaming. It has nothing to do with said acronym and whoever started spreading that needs to go back about 40 years and realize their mistakes. and your definition of metagaming does not fit the roleplayer definition from table tops or pen and paper games which could be viewed as prior versions to pc roleplaying games: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metagaming Optimal strategies can be synonymous to most efficient tactics depending on the game type and goal. The acronym works nicely for that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TexZero.7910 Posted July 31, 2018 Share Posted July 31, 2018 > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > @"TexZero.7910" said: > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > That's what meta means. MOST EFFICIENT TACTIC AVAILABLE. > > > > No. Meta comes from the term Metagaming which is described as knowing the currently optimal strategies gaming. It has nothing to do with said acronym and whoever started spreading that needs to go back about 40 years and realize their mistakes. > > and your definition of metagaming does not fit the roleplayer definition from table tops or pen and paper games which could be viewed as prior versions to pc roleplaying games: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metagaming > > Optimal strategies can be synonymous to most efficient tactics depending on the game type and goal. The acronym works nicely for that. The acronym is not where the term is derived from nor what it means. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyninja.2954 Posted July 31, 2018 Share Posted July 31, 2018 > @"TexZero.7910" said: > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > @"TexZero.7910" said: > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > That's what meta means. MOST EFFICIENT TACTIC AVAILABLE. > > > > > > No. Meta comes from the term Metagaming which is described as knowing the currently optimal strategies gaming. It has nothing to do with said acronym and whoever started spreading that needs to go back about 40 years and realize their mistakes. > > > > and your definition of metagaming does not fit the roleplayer definition from table tops or pen and paper games which could be viewed as prior versions to pc roleplaying games: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metagaming > > > > Optimal strategies can be synonymous to most efficient tactics depending on the game type and goal. The acronym works nicely for that. > > The acronym is not where the term is derived from nor what it means. So? The actual term and it's origin have nothing to do with how it gets used in MMOs or digital role playing games (many of which are not role playing games in the traditional sense anyway). No, it's not optimal strategies but rather breaking fourth wall or using outside information in your role playing game. The acronym works nicely for how the term gets used in digital role playing games and especially MMOs where choice in story is often very limited if given at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TexZero.7910 Posted July 31, 2018 Share Posted July 31, 2018 > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > So? The actual term and it's origin have nothing to do with how it gets used in MMOs or digital role playing games (many of which are not role playing games in the traditional sense anyway). No, it's not optimal strategies but rather breaking fourth wall or using outside information in your role playing game. > > The acronym works nicely for how the term gets used in digital role playing games and especially MMOs where choice in story is often very limited if given at all. You wrote > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > That's what meta means. MOST EFFICIENT TACTIC AVAILABLE. No, i'm sorry that's not what META means. That's an acronym brought about by people whom have no idea what meta means or where it came from. It does not mean most efficient tactic available. Perhaps that's not something you like reading because it shatters your preconceived notion of the term ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyninja.2954 Posted August 1, 2018 Share Posted August 1, 2018 > @"TexZero.7910" said: > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > So? The actual term and it's origin have nothing to do with how it gets used in MMOs or digital role playing games (many of which are not role playing games in the traditional sense anyway). No, it's not optimal strategies but rather breaking fourth wall or using outside information in your role playing game. > > > > The acronym works nicely for how the term gets used in digital role playing games and especially MMOs where choice in story is often very limited if given at all. > You wrote > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > That's what meta means. MOST EFFICIENT TACTIC AVAILABLE. > > No, i'm sorry that's not what META means. That's an acronym brought about by people whom have no idea what meta means or where it came from. It does not mean most efficient tactic available. > > Perhaps that's not something you like reading because it shatters your preconceived notion of the term ? Not at all, going by how the term came to be and how the term gets used in MMOs I think the acronym works perfectly. As I have said multiple times by now. You have yet to disprove that the acronym does not work. All you have started is that the term has a different origin which I never contested. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astralporing.1957 Posted August 1, 2018 Share Posted August 1, 2018 > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > Not at all, going by how the term came to be and how the term gets used in MMOs I think the acronym works perfectly. As I have said multiple times by now. > > You have yet to disprove that the acronym does not work. All you have started is that the term has a different origin which I never contested. Considering that the meta covers also less efficient setups (for example, at some time the fractal meta was 1 druid 4 necro, even though it was far from being most efficient - just _very safe_. As a nother example, minstrel chrono started as a joke build and never been considered very efficient) as long as they are at least somewhat popular, it's clear that you are just wrong on this. Yes, the goal of buildcrafting, that lies behind the meta _is_ usually creating the most efficient builds, but it doesn' mean that the meta itself is about it. All that "the meta" is is a collection of builds that are acknowledged by the community as useful for something. Nothing more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyninja.2954 Posted August 1, 2018 Share Posted August 1, 2018 > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > Not at all, going by how the term came to be and how the term gets used in MMOs I think the acronym works perfectly. As I have said multiple times by now. > > > > You have yet to disprove that the acronym does not work. All you have started is that the term has a different origin which I never contested. > Considering that the meta covers also less efficient setups (for example, at some time the fractal meta was 1 druid 4 necro, even though it was far from being most efficient - just _very safe_. As a nother example, minstrel chrono started as a joke build and never been considered very efficient) as long as they are at least somewhat popular, it's clear that you are just wrong on this. > Yes, the goal of buildcrafting, that lies behind the meta _is_ usually creating the most efficient builds, but it doesn' mean that the meta itself is about it. All that "the meta" is is a collection of builds that are acknowledged by the community as useful for something. Nothing more. > You assume that there is only 1 most efficient tactic available or that the set of conditions or parameters are always the same. I do not. That should be kind of obvious since player skill is not equal among all participants and neither are victory or goal conditions. Anyway this thread was derailed enough already by semantics imo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amaranthe.3578 Posted August 1, 2018 Share Posted August 1, 2018 There are basicaly no tanks in the game...there is no threat management and its so easy to take the bosses hits that the tank takes just enough toughness to have more than everybody else -_-" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griever.8150 Posted August 1, 2018 Share Posted August 1, 2018 > @"TexZero.7910" said: > If scrapper spewed out group quickness and alacrity, it could be a tank (considering it was billed as a tanky spec) but has since been gutted because apparently having both Alchemy and Scrapper is too tonky for PvP and those changes were never split for PvE. Shame really. Yeah, i really want this to be a thing. I love my Scrapper. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astralporing.1957 Posted August 1, 2018 Share Posted August 1, 2018 > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > > Not at all, going by how the term came to be and how the term gets used in MMOs I think the acronym works perfectly. As I have said multiple times by now. > > > > > > You have yet to disprove that the acronym does not work. All you have started is that the term has a different origin which I never contested. > > Considering that the meta covers also less efficient setups (for example, at some time the fractal meta was 1 druid 4 necro, even though it was far from being most efficient - just _very safe_. As a nother example, minstrel chrono started as a joke build and never been considered very efficient) as long as they are at least somewhat popular, it's clear that you are just wrong on this. > > Yes, the goal of buildcrafting, that lies behind the meta _is_ usually creating the most efficient builds, but it doesn' mean that the meta itself is about it. All that "the meta" is is a collection of builds that are acknowledged by the community as useful for something. Nothing more. > > > > You assume that there is only 1 most efficient tactic available It's almost impossible for things to be so well balanced that this wouldn't be true. > or that the set of conditions or parameters are always the same. No, i do not. It's just that i'd like to remind you that efficiency _itself_ is just one of those parameters. And it sometimes takes a back seat to others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TexZero.7910 Posted August 1, 2018 Share Posted August 1, 2018 > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > @"TexZero.7910" said: > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > So? The actual term and it's origin have nothing to do with how it gets used in MMOs or digital role playing games (many of which are not role playing games in the traditional sense anyway). No, it's not optimal strategies but rather breaking fourth wall or using outside information in your role playing game. > > > > > > The acronym works nicely for how the term gets used in digital role playing games and especially MMOs where choice in story is often very limited if given at all. > > You wrote > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > That's what meta means. MOST EFFICIENT TACTIC AVAILABLE. > > > > No, i'm sorry that's not what META means. That's an acronym brought about by people whom have no idea what meta means or where it came from. It does not mean most efficient tactic available. > > > > Perhaps that's not something you like reading because it shatters your preconceived notion of the term ? > > Not at all, going by how the term came to be and how the term gets used in MMOs I think the acronym works perfectly. As I have said multiple times by now. > > You have yet to disprove that the acronym does not work. All you have started is that the term has a different origin which I never contested. You really don't see how the "Most efficient tactic available" doesn't fit ? 95% of the time it's not the most efficient, it lacks the redundancy to be considered efficient as these comps have single points of failures that require the group to meet the demands or remake. That's far from efficient. Even more to that is that the "Tactics' if one can even call them that are literally the most inefficient way to do things in put all the eggs into the dps harder and perfection basket as opposed to everyone knowing the mechanics and doing them. So while yes the common strategy may be to kill it before it kills you, that doesn't make it the most efficient just one route that's widely accepted. There's a world of difference between efficient and accepted. Hence why your acronym doesn't work. It's not the most efficient and it barely qualifies as a tactic. This is also why if you read the very same wiki link you'll notice that is has several ways the term is used and how it's evolved to match the gaming spheres it's used in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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