Loesh.4697 Posted July 23, 2018 Share Posted July 23, 2018 > @"Ephemiel.5694" said: > Their essence doesn't dissipate into another vessel, it HAD to be absorbed or it would run rampant, this is why Kormir absorbed Abaddon's. In Balthazar's case, of course 2 magic-absorbing Dragons took all his magic, it's what they do. > > Not only that, but in a book in-game called _The Six: Being or Playing God,_ it is implied the Gods may not be actual Gods at all, but they're actually Humans who had attained incredible amounts of magic and longevity. This would explain why some of them have families [balthazar has a father and brother, Grenth is actually Dwayna's son with a human father]. Kormir is, literally, a Human that absorbed Abaddon's power, which pretty much confirms this theory and, of course, the fact that we defeat Balthazar without any sort of actual power or blessing [and this is an EMPOWERED Balthazar with magic from 2 Elder Dragons thanks to Taimi's machine]. I would point out we actually fought a weakened Balth, not god balth since all his power was stripped and that's why he had to absorb energy to begin with. That's why even after absorbing all that energy merely being near him didn't cause permanent eye damage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loesh.4697 Posted July 23, 2018 Share Posted July 23, 2018 > > @"Cristalyan.5728" said: > Not the power makes a god to be a God. Or, not only the power. With enough time to evolve any race can reach the power level of the actual "gods". This is the reason I said the charrs can achieve anything the gods can achieve if given enough time. But this is not enough to be a god. Divine power? What is this? We don't know what ANet means by "divine power". But thanks to Kormir we know that any human can take this power from a god. And they don't care about Tyria. The message I understand from the ... strategic retreat of the gods is: "If we fight the dragons we may lose. And then the dragons will destroy you. But even if we win, the world will be destroyed. So, our choice, showing our greatest care for Tyria is to retreat and let the dragons to eat you. AAAA - if you as a commander can find a way to solve this problem, eliminating the actual dragons and keeping Tyria alive, then maybe, we will come back. And we will let the humans to worship us again". > I'd point out the power is explicitly what makes a god a god, it can only be simulated on a much cruder level but not equaled or exceeded to our knowledge. This comes back to the 7th rule of the Asuran collages, god magic is finite, unrepeatable, and indestructible. Even when you 'kill' a god their being seeps into you and you essentially fuse into a new form. The Charr could not achieve anything the gods could because, as Gaeron proved, the best they could manage was making themselves physically invulnerable for a few seconds without the crazy strong power of reshaping the entire planet. We've never actually defeated a god on our own, we always required divine aid in the case of Kormir, or a radical depowering in the case of Baltahazar to the point they no longer qualify(And even then, we needed Sohothan which is a sword that wasn't forged by mortals.) if he had any of that divine power, the pact commander would of had his eyes boiled out of his skull. Further, continuing to fight as a god against the Dragons on Tyria would be idiotic, a war between gods would cause the entire planet to collapse. Hell the entire premise of what we're doing with Aurene is that we need to replace the Elder Dragons or Tyria will simply unravel, killing all the dragons will actually just kill us all. The gods care, enough to put up mechanisms to protect us after they were gone, and it's pretty much the only thing they *could* do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cristalyan.5728 Posted July 23, 2018 Share Posted July 23, 2018 > @"Loesh.4697" said: > > > > > > @"Cristalyan.5728" said: > > > I'd point out the power is explicitly what makes a god a god, it can only be simulated on a much cruder level but not equaled or exceeded to our knowledge. This comes back to the 7th rule of the Asuran collages, god magic is finite, unrepeatable, and indestructible. Even when you 'kill' a god their being seeps into you and you essentially fuse into a new form. The Charr could not achieve anything the gods could because, as Gaeron proved, the best they could manage was making themselves physically invulnerable for a few seconds without the crazy strong power of reshaping the entire planet. We've never actually defeated a god on our own, we always required divine aid in the case of Kormir, or a radical depowering in the case of Baltahazar to the point they no longer qualify(And even then, we needed Sohothan which is a sword that wasn't forged by mortals.) if he had any of that divine power, the pact commander would of had his eyes boiled out of his skull. > > Further, continuing to fight as a god against the Dragons on Tyria would be idiotic, a war between gods would cause the entire planet to collapse. Hell the entire premise of what we're doing with Aurene is that we need to replace the Elder Dragons or Tyria will simply unravel, killing all the dragons will actually just kill us all. The gods care, enough to put up mechanisms to protect us after they were gone, and it's pretty much the only thing they *could* do. The 7th rule : =) ! We know that the Asura experimented with several types of magic, including dragon magic. I have no knowledge when the Asura experimented with "divine magic". If they never experimented with it, then how they determined the properties of this magic? In my opinion this is a typical example of Asura speaking (in this case writing) only because they like to hear their own voice. This statement has the same degree of credibility as the statement: "we striped Balthazar of his ~~clothes~~ divinity and he is not a god anymore" - HILARIOUS. If this divine power is **finite, unrepeatable and indestructible**, then what happened with the divine power of Balthazar? - it was absorbed by one of the other gods? That means it is not unique (unrepeatable) - none of the remaining gods turned into God of War. (OOH! - what if this power was absorbed by one of the Lysa girls? One remained Lysa. The other is now the God of War). - It was absorbed by all the remaining gods? That means it is not indestructible. - It was not absorbed at all? That means - according to the gods statements - that Tyria should be now destroyed by its release. And moreover, that means the essence of Balthazar is still alive, haunting the universe and searching for a new recipient for rebirth. This is why I said the story is less and less credible. I keep my opinion. The power is not enough to qualify you as a god. It is a necessary condition but it is not enough. To give an example: Goku, from Dragon Balz is powerful enough to destroy the universe and still nobody calls him a god. Not even he considers himself a god. Why? What is missing? **The Charr could not achieve anything the gods could because, as Gaeron proved, the best they could manage was making themselves physically invulnerable for a few seconds without the crazy strong power of reshaping the entire planet** - you totally misunderstood my point. I pointed to charr as a race and not to a certain individual. Can the god change the landscape - even the Asura can do that - remember the Taumanova explosion when "the fabric of the universe turned inside out" as per one of the technicians in Metrica Province. Give the charr enough time and they will develop a technology to do that - a bomb, super excavators etc. and they will be able to reshape the landscape. Slower than a "god" and with much more effort, but they can do. AAAAAA - and Gaeron made himself invulnerable for a few seconds **now**. In five or ten thousands of years, a new individual may appear making himself invulnerable for an extended period of time. But again, it was about charrs as a race, and not about any individual charr. Why fighting the dragons is idiotic - because this will destroy the life on Tyria? Then we, the gods, will leave. And the dragons can destroy Tyria. A totally different result :#. In this case not muscles are needed from the "gods" but mind. And it seems this is something they lack. No matter what happens, it will be a hilarious thing if the Commander will find a method to stop the dragons and to save the life on Tyria, something the "gods" were unable to see. But, as per the current development of the story, the game is going to an end - the life on Tyria will perish no matter what we do. This will open the opportunity to launch GW3. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loesh.4697 Posted July 23, 2018 Share Posted July 23, 2018 > @"Cristalyan.5728" said: > > @"Loesh.4697" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Cristalyan.5728" said: > > > > > > I'd point out the power is explicitly what makes a god a god, it can only be simulated on a much cruder level but not equaled or exceeded to our knowledge. This comes back to the 7th rule of the Asuran collages, god magic is finite, unrepeatable, and indestructible. Even when you 'kill' a god their being seeps into you and you essentially fuse into a new form. The Charr could not achieve anything the gods could because, as Gaeron proved, the best they could manage was making themselves physically invulnerable for a few seconds without the crazy strong power of reshaping the entire planet. We've never actually defeated a god on our own, we always required divine aid in the case of Kormir, or a radical depowering in the case of Baltahazar to the point they no longer qualify(And even then, we needed Sohothan which is a sword that wasn't forged by mortals.) if he had any of that divine power, the pact commander would of had his eyes boiled out of his skull. > > > > Further, continuing to fight as a god against the Dragons on Tyria would be idiotic, a war between gods would cause the entire planet to collapse. Hell the entire premise of what we're doing with Aurene is that we need to replace the Elder Dragons or Tyria will simply unravel, killing all the dragons will actually just kill us all. The gods care, enough to put up mechanisms to protect us after they were gone, and it's pretty much the only thing they *could* do. > > The 7th rule : =) ! We know that the Asura experimented with several types of magic, including dragon magic. I have no knowledge when the Asura experimented with "divine magic". If they never experimented with it, then how they determined the properties of this magic? In my opinion this is a typical example of Asura speaking (in this case writing) only because they like to hear their own voice. This statement has the same degree of credibility as the statement: "we striped Balthazar of his ~~clothes~~ divinity and he is not a god anymore" - HILARIOUS. If this divine power is **finite, unrepeatable and indestructible**, then what happened with the divine power of Balthazar? > - it was absorbed by one of the other gods? That means it is not unique (unrepeatable) - none of the remaining gods turned into God of War. (OOH! - what if this power was absorbed by one of the Lysa girls? One remained Lysa. The other is now the God of War). > - It was absorbed by all the remaining gods? That means it is not indestructible. > - It was not absorbed at all? That means - according to the gods statements - that Tyria should be now destroyed by its release. And moreover, that means the essence of Balthazar is still alive, haunting the universe and searching for a new recipient for rebirth. > > This is why I said the story is less and less credible. > > I keep my opinion. The power is not enough to qualify you as a god. It is a necessary condition but it is not enough. To give an example: Goku, from Dragon Balz is powerful enough to destroy the universe and still nobody calls him a god. Not even he considers himself a god. Why? What is missing? > > **The Charr could not achieve anything the gods could because, as Gaeron proved, the best they could manage was making themselves physically invulnerable for a few seconds without the crazy strong power of reshaping the entire planet** - you totally misunderstood my point. I pointed to charr as a race and not to a certain individual. > Can the god change the landscape - even the Asura can do that - remember the Taumanova explosion when "the fabric of the universe turned inside out" as per one of the technicians in Metrica Province. Give the charr enough time and they will develop a technology to do that - a bomb, super excavators etc. and they will be able to reshape the landscape. Slower than a "god" and with much more effort, but they can do. AAAAAA - and Gaeron made himself invulnerable for a few seconds **now**. In five or ten thousands of years, a new individual may appear making himself invulnerable for an extended period of time. But again, it was about charrs as a race, and not about any individual charr. > > Why fighting the dragons is idiotic - because this will destroy the life on Tyria? Then we, the gods, will leave. And the dragons can destroy Tyria. A totally different result :#. In this case not muscles are needed from the "gods" but mind. And it seems this is something they lack. No matter what happens, it will be a hilarious thing if the Commander will find a method to stop the dragons and to save the life on Tyria, something the "gods" were unable to see. > > But, as per the current development of the story, the game is going to an end - the life on Tyria will perish no matter what we do. This will open the opportunity to launch GW3. This is a pretty established fact, and hell you even already talked about why it's indestructable. Kormir *had* to take the power or it'd destroy Tyria, lesser forms of magic are indestructible so why wouldn't divine? similarly Balthazar being stripped of power is just plain factual, he was significantly less powerful post Lazerous and indeed didn't cause the eye blinding effect that merely being around Kormir causes. Also destruction is not the same as absorption(I'm not sure why you think it is? by nature absorption is the transfer of energy, rather then the cessation of it's existence.) I mean all this stuff is internally consistent, wherever the power is it's not even on Tyria anymore, it's wherever the gods went. I mean I don't think anyone needs to call you a god or worship you as a god to be a god. To paraphrase Lorgar Aurelian: If a man can hold a thousand suns in his hands is he not a god? if he can sow his seeds across a thousand worlds is he not a god? if one does not call themselves a god but still does these things, then the distinction between man and god is pure semantics. Race, indvidual, neither can do what a god did. Even the Charr with all their technology cannot terraform Tyria in the extreme ways that Melandru could, they could not cast someone down into an ocean and transform it into a *desert* in a single stroke. The magic and technology is beyond them and without the gods on Tyria, it may simply *not exist* here anymore except in any other form but the Dragons. You can hold up Asura terraforming as an example but the simple fact of the matter is without a thousand of such magical inquest cubes it's unlikely they could match a fragment of a gods power, and the materials to make such a fleet might not even *exist* on Tyria. And beyond even all this, you say these things like the gods aren't acting and giving resources to mortals to help solve the problem. This isn't implied, Kormir makes this explicit, and 'Worlds of Cardboard' aren't a new trope. Gods cannot exert power without rapidly destroying large sections of their environment(The unique characteristic of their light is emblematic of this. They can't turn their powers 'off' they are going to blind you by mere proximity, and there's nothing you can do about it.) so we're acting as their proxy for all intents and purposes. Leave us the tools we need to succeed, and if we fuck up the gods are looking for another world as per Garden of the Gods if the planet just implodes. I get where you're coming from, I respect your opinion, but I also think it's extremely flimsy. Must of this stuff was dismantled with a couple minutes of critical thought, if not outright disproved by the text in game without much effort. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThatOddOne.4387 Posted July 23, 2018 Share Posted July 23, 2018 Being called or regarded as a god by others is not a prerequisite for being a god as per Guild Wars' iteration on the matter. There is no evidence the gods draw strength from the number of followers like D&D gods do - Given how powerful Abaddon was even whilst chained, or that Dhuum was still strong enough to cause a headache for the Reapers and Grenth during GW1 era and then break free entirely during GW2. And they both had limited numbers of worshippers. I certainly don't get the opinion that the Gods are uncaring or otherwise incompetent when it comes to the Dragons. If they know that conflict between Gods literally turns a sea into desert. (Crystal Sea --> Crystal Desert) then they are going to be VERY wary of using their power beyond their realms on Tyria regardless of the threat. And we know their mere proximity is enough for all of this. I like the idea that they're searching for another world in case everything on Tyria goes to hell, but I would still like to have some confirmation from the Gods themselves that is what they are doing, rather than a book written by an unreliable narrator. The human narrative needs that pay-off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Konig Des Todes.2086 Posted July 24, 2018 Share Posted July 24, 2018 > @"Cristalyan.5728" said: > The divine power "**It is a specific kind of power, one that is volatile without a host, is fully unique, altwrs the physiology of the host, and cannot be destroyed.**". If true, that means it exists as a whole, indivisible and able to exists even without a host. The host is only needed for interacting with the mortals. This is where it's iffy. If the power explodes without a host, as we see beginning to happen at the end of Nightfall, then it cannot exist in a stable form. It would thus need the host to exist. But at the same time, we're told that a god's power cannot be destroyed. Unless there's an unmentioned clause of "cannot be destroyed, except through self-destruction" then it would suggest that after the explosion it would be too dissipated to do anything. Furthermore, regarding the "only needs a host to interact", this would similarly be false, as the power itself is unlikely to have a personality. It would just be a power source, like a giant battery, which fuels the god which is the host at the time. Without the battery/power source/divinity, the "host" is not a god. The divinity itself is what makes a god, not is a god. > @"Cristalyan.5728" said: > BUT: That means this power has been absorbed by somebody (one of the other gods presumably). It's less likely that the other gods absorbed that power, otherwise there would have been no need to imprison Abaddon. They could have killed and divided his power. The fact they kept him around for 1,000 years and at full power indicates that they cannot simply divide power among each other. > @"Cristalyan.5728" said: > So, Kormir's statement that in this moment only **five** gods remains is false. Kormir actually never says there are five. She, in fact, states that Balthazar is not one of the Six. > @"Cristalyan.5728" said: > Also, using this logic we can safely consider that Kormir is in fact Abadon. (because only the host is changed - the power remain the same). Then what was the point in fighting Abadon? Kormir as goddess of truth is not Abaddon but rather a case of "Abaddon + Kormir". Abaddon's old will, that which made him evil, was broken with Kormir absorbing the power. Her will took control, but obtained/retained Abaddon's power and knowledge. > @"Cristalyan.5728" said: > But if we consider the following statement as TRUE: "**As Kormir said at the end of NF, she was Kormir "and much more" citing Abaddon's knowledge and broken will were paet of him**.", then the statement " **One way to think of it is not that Dwayna etc. are gods, but hosts for gods. That the power they house is the gods. Indestructible, immutable, but incapable of existing (peacefully) without a host. A host that they alter irrefutably and permanently, even if it leaves the host.**" is false. Because it seems that this immutable, indestructible absolute power is not altering the host at all but the host is changing it to fit its needs. We can conclude that not the power models the host, but the host changes the power. If so, it is possible that in time, after several generation of fallen gods to obtain a power in a god pretty similar with what another god has. That means these powers are not unique? Technically the host **is** changed. Both physically, and mentally. Kormir gained Abaddon's knowledge and power. This would irrevokably alter her perception of things. Imagine, if you will, you suddenly receive another person's memories but retain your own. You're still "you" but you have this second perspective on a bunch of events throughout the years. Will your opinion on things change? It's very likely. It is not "the power molds the host" nor is it "the host molds the power" but rather "the host and the power mold each other". They combine together, getting some of the old and some of the new together. And this is why Kormir's ascension doesn't result in an immediate "Abaddon in a new body". > @"Cristalyan.5728" said: > As for: "**Not anyone can become a host for this power. The gods waited 1,075 years for a suitable host to replace Abaddon, and eben then Kormir needed a special bleasing**" - my opinion is that the gods did not wait this period for Kormir. This period of time was necessary to Abadon to regain a part of his strength and to be able to threaten the world again. Not Kormir's characteristics/parameters/qualities decided the issue, but the "god blessing". This was the key for turning a mortal into ..... one like them. So, I keep my opinion - with the help of advanced magic (or advanced technology) every single mortal can absorb a "god' power, becoming one of them. Abaddon never lost his strength. His strength was limited by various locks which Varesh Ossa had undone with her three rituals. Besides, why would the gods wait for Abaddon to threaten the world if they didn't need to wait for someone like Kormir? If _anyone_ could fill the position, then they could have taken a human that lived during the time of Abaddon's fall in Year 0 and replaced him then and there. Yes, the god's blessing was needed, but they could theoretically give that to any human they wish. _So why wait 1,075 years if any Tom, Dick, or Harry could do the job?_ > @"Ephemiel.5694" said: > Then what would you say about Dhuum and Grenth? Both Dhuum and Balthazar were usurped without dying, and we never met Grenth in person, so we can't really tell how different the whole succession thing is from the Abaddon/Kormir scenario. > @"castlemanic.3198" said: > Essentially, Grenth McGuyvered his way into ascension while Abaddon kept hold of the only method that would have put Dhuum in Balthazar's place. That's the theory anyway. > > It's a shot in the dark and I have a bunch of reasoning for it that I'll get into if someone asks, but this is the primary point for this discussion. (I don't really know how any of this factors into Konig's estimation of what divinity actually is) If Abaddon held the method of ascension without killing, then Grenth could have been aided by Abaddon. Abaddon didn't turn evil until 1 BE, for all intents and purposes, and Grenth was a god since at least 48 BE. > @"Cristalyan.5728" said: > > @"ThatOddOne.4387" said: > > Mmn. No. The Gods -are- immortal beings, but they can still be killed. They are not immortal as in invulerable, they are immortal as in they will not die from old age/probably most diseases. > > > This is exactly the definition of the Elder Dragons. I think this definition fit even Jocko. Are they gods? Elder Dragons and Joko do not blind people by merely being looked upon. Technically, Joko wasn't even immortal in the sense of not dying from old age or disease, as he was undead. And we have no clue about the aging of Elder Dragons, to be technical - it is entirely possible that they die of old age, but that old age is in the hundreds of thousands of years. > @"Cristalyan.5728" said: > This is exactly what Kormir did. Only through the blessing of a god, which in theory could be given to any race. Humans _by themselves_ cannot strip a god of its divine power. Ultimately, whether it is directly or indirectly, a god or demigod is needed to strip a god of their divinity. > @"Cristalyan.5728" said: > The main problem with the lore is that we don't know how Tyria (and the GW2 universe) started to exist. We have here two possible variant (I said this before but I will repeat): > 1. Tyria appeared in a similar way our Universe appeared - so a natural birth. This is an evolutionist (darwinist) Universe where the gods have no place. In this case the actual "gods" of the humans **are no gods**. They are powerful beings, with great knowledge, knowing how to extend their life span to a point where they are considered immortals. OR > 2. The Tyrian universe has been created by an entity (or several entities) by a conscient action (a creationist universe). In this case the actual gods of the humans **are no gods**. Because (at least until now) we know they did not create Tyria. In fact, they created nothing. They are powerful beings ..... etc. And we still don't know who the **real** gods are. > > And by keeping this unclear status the lore team tries to appeal the creationist (believers) by introducing the gods, and in the other hand to appeal the evolutionists (the darwinists) by putting the mortals over any other forces of Tyria, even over the "gods". > The result is a less and less credible mixture. I mean, not really? As pointed out earlier, the Mists has been stated to be the origin of all things, and it creates stuff at random much like the Big Bang but at a smaller, and perpetual, scale. There is no appealing to creationists or evolutionists being done at all, not sure where you get that. > @"Cristalyan.5728" said: > The 7th rule : =) ! We know that the Asura experimented with several types of magic, including dragon magic. I have no knowledge when the Asura experimented with "divine magic". If they never experimented with it, then how they determined the properties of this magic? In my opinion this is a typical example of Asura speaking (in this case writing) only because they like to hear their own voice. The only time asura had experimented with god magic, that we know of directly, would be [the Path to Revelations quest chain](https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/The_Path_to_Revelations) in GW1. Though the god statues have maintained some form of divine magic over the centuries as well, so that's plausible as well. However, it's pretty obvious that in the context of the GWverse's definition of what a "god" is, that one book by one asura with no prior credentials is, indeed, false in proclaiming the gods false. > @"Cristalyan.5728" said: > This statement has the same degree of credibility as the statement: "we striped Balthazar of his ~~clothes~~ divinity and he is not a god anymore" - HILARIOUS. If this divine power is **finite, unrepeatable and indestructible**, then what happened with the divine power of Balthazar? > - it was absorbed by one of the other gods? That means it is not unique (unrepeatable) - none of the remaining gods turned into God of War. (OOH! - what if this power was absorbed by one of the Lysa girls? One remained Lysa. The other is now the God of War). > - It was absorbed by all the remaining gods? That means it is not indestructible. > - It was not absorbed at all? That means - according to the gods statements - that Tyria should be now destroyed by its release. And moreover, that means the essence of Balthazar is still alive, haunting the universe and searching for a new recipient for rebirth. > > This is why I said the story is less and less credible. We don't know what happened to it, but you completely ignore the most logical conclusion: that there's a new god of war out there that we do not know about. What we do know is that Balthazar was stripped of it. For some reason, you seem to deny that possibility, despite Kormir still calling the group "the Six" (despite living her entire mortal life calling them "the Five", and had there been no successor, calling them "the Five" most of her immortal life). There's also the less likely possibility that it got stored in an object akin to the Bloodstone. > @"Cristalyan.5728" said: > I keep my opinion. The power is not enough to qualify you as a god. It is a necessary condition but it is not enough. To give an example: Goku, from Dragon Balz is powerful enough to destroy the universe and still nobody calls him a god. Not even he considers himself a god. Why? What is missing? Technically, in Dragon Ball Super Goku is considered a god for a short time. This is because during that time, his body's ki is altered into god ki, something entirely different from mortal ki. This, actually, presents the **PERFECT** analogy and comparison to the Six Gods. Just as in the Dragon Ball universe, a god's energy cannot be sensed by mortals because it is fundamentally different. Despite this, mortals like Goku can in fact overpower a god (such as what Majin Buu had done in DBZ flashbacks; or Goku versus Zamasu in DBS). In the GWverse, a god's magical power makes them a god because it is fundamentally different. **It's not the amount of power, but the _type of power_ that makes a god a god, and a mortal a mortal, and an Elder Dragon an Elder Dragon.** > @"Cristalyan.5728" said: > Why fighting the dragons is idiotic - because this will destroy the life on Tyria? Then we, the gods, will leave. And the dragons can destroy Tyria. A totally different result :#. In this case not muscles are needed from the "gods" but mind. And it seems this is something they lack. No matter what happens, it will be a hilarious thing if the Commander will find a method to stop the dragons and to save the life on Tyria, something the "gods" were unable to see. The gods aren't just abandoning Tyria. They've [left to find a new world to inhabit](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Garden_of_the_Gods) and said they'll come back to bring humanity over to this new world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
castlemanic.3198 Posted July 24, 2018 Share Posted July 24, 2018 > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said: > > @"castlemanic.3198" said: > > Essentially, Grenth McGuyvered his way into ascension while Abaddon kept hold of the only method that would have put Dhuum in Balthazar's place. That's the theory anyway. > > > > It's a shot in the dark and I have a bunch of reasoning for it that I'll get into if someone asks, but this is the primary point for this discussion. (I don't really know how any of this factors into Konig's estimation of what divinity actually is) > > If Abaddon held the method of ascension without killing, then Grenth could have been aided by Abaddon. Abaddon didn't turn evil until 1 BE, for all intents and purposes, and Grenth was a god since at least 48 BE. If Abaddon could have aided Grenth, then it may be possible that Abaddon provided enough info to do a test run to see how the ritual held up without completely depowering Dhuum ala Balthazar. It would at least make sense from the perspective of self preservation, he kept secrets even when he wasn't evil and he did replace a previous god to boot. Alternatively, Abaddon could have had unseen motives for keeping Dhuum in that sealed but powerful state, a motive that only Kormir knows. Or it's just a giant, unfillable hole in the theory and we need to look elsewhere for an answer. I appreciate the clarification of Abaddon's alignment, more information is good (and I hadn't accounted for it at all). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Konig Des Todes.2086 Posted July 24, 2018 Share Posted July 24, 2018 > @"castlemanic.3198" said: > If Abaddon could have aided Grenth, then it may be possible that Abaddon provided enough info to do a test run to see how the ritual held up without completely depowering Dhuum ala Balthazar. It would at least make sense from the perspective of self preservation, he kept secrets even when he wasn't evil and he did replace a previous god to boot. Alternatively, Abaddon could have had unseen motives for keeping Dhuum in that sealed but powerful state, a motive that only Kormir knows. As far as we know, Dhuum was very much extremely weak when dethroned. Probably as weak as Balthazar was while imprisoned. He regained his strength and became powerful only after over a thousand years of absorbing the souls of those his minions killed and of his minions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
perilisk.1874 Posted July 24, 2018 Share Posted July 24, 2018 > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said: > This is where it's iffy. If the power explodes without a host, as we see beginning to happen at the end of Nightfall, then it cannot exist in a stable form. It would thus need the host to exist. But at the same time, we're told that a god's power cannot be destroyed. Was it "exploding", or just starting to act on the world in a completely uncontrolled and unrestrained fashion due the absence of a will and personality? Maybe the bulk of what a god does is deliberate inaction. If their power was uncontrolled... Grenth's would basically result in a zombie apocalypse, Melandru would be the Genesis project, Balthazar would be global thermonuclear war, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
castlemanic.3198 Posted July 24, 2018 Share Posted July 24, 2018 > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said: > > @"castlemanic.3198" said: > > If Abaddon could have aided Grenth, then it may be possible that Abaddon provided enough info to do a test run to see how the ritual held up without completely depowering Dhuum ala Balthazar. It would at least make sense from the perspective of self preservation, he kept secrets even when he wasn't evil and he did replace a previous god to boot. Alternatively, Abaddon could have had unseen motives for keeping Dhuum in that sealed but powerful state, a motive that only Kormir knows. > > As far as we know, Dhuum was very much extremely weak when dethroned. Probably as weak as Balthazar was while imprisoned. He regained his strength and became powerful only after over a thousand years of absorbing the souls of those his minions killed and of his minions. Oh! I had assumed that because Grenth didn't find a way to destroy Dhuum that he had retained some of his powers instead of being weak like Balthazar. Thanks for the info. So there is some merit to the theory that Abaddon held the full secret to stripping the divinity of another god. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyson.5160 Posted July 25, 2018 Share Posted July 25, 2018 > @"castlemanic.3198" said: > > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said: > > > @"castlemanic.3198" said: > > > If Abaddon could have aided Grenth, then it may be possible that Abaddon provided enough info to do a test run to see how the ritual held up without completely depowering Dhuum ala Balthazar. It would at least make sense from the perspective of self preservation, he kept secrets even when he wasn't evil and he did replace a previous god to boot. Alternatively, Abaddon could have had unseen motives for keeping Dhuum in that sealed but powerful state, a motive that only Kormir knows. > > > > As far as we know, Dhuum was very much extremely weak when dethroned. Probably as weak as Balthazar was while imprisoned. He regained his strength and became powerful only after over a thousand years of absorbing the souls of those his minions killed and of his minions. > > Oh! I had assumed that because Grenth didn't find a way to destroy Dhuum that he had retained some of his powers instead of being weak like Balthazar. Thanks for the info. So there is some merit to the theory that Abaddon held the full secret to stripping the divinity of another god. Yeah, if I recall Dhuum regained his strength by things being killed in the Underworld in Gw1. Gw2 he redirected the river of souls to power himself, which is a tactic that Abaddon used as well if I recall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Konig Des Todes.2086 Posted July 25, 2018 Share Posted July 25, 2018 > @"perilisk.1874" said: > > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said: > > This is where it's iffy. If the power explodes without a host, as we see beginning to happen at the end of Nightfall, then it cannot exist in a stable form. It would thus need the host to exist. But at the same time, we're told that a god's power cannot be destroyed. > > Was it "exploding", or just starting to act on the world in a completely uncontrolled and unrestrained fashion due the absence of a will and personality? Maybe the bulk of what a god does is deliberate inaction. If their power was uncontrolled... Grenth's would basically result in a zombie apocalypse, Melandru would be the Genesis project, Balthazar would be global thermonuclear war, etc. > Given that it didn't happen, it's hard to say what would happen, but: : "Abaddon is breaking up!" Kormir: "Incredible! All that knowledge!" : "It's running wild! It will destroy everything!" Kormir: "I'm going into it!" https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Abaddon's_Gate_(cinematic) At the moment of his death, Abaddon unleashed all of his pent-up power. With nowhere to go, this rogue power would have destroyed both the realm of Torment and Tyria. https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Night_Falls The words "explode" is never said, but what is said is that the power was released and running wild, threatening to destroy everything "nearby" (with a massive radius to reach Tyria from the heart of the Realm of Torment). However, I imagine that Abaddon's magic would have resulted much the same as we see with Balthazar's magic, in that it would turn into a maelstrom that devastates everything. It is an explosion, in a way, as it is expanding from a point of origin rather quickly, just not in the manner of a nuke or bomb as many associate with the term "explosion". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
draxynnic.3719 Posted July 25, 2018 Share Posted July 25, 2018 > @"perilisk.1874" said: > > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said: > > Koss on Koss object found during Hidden Arcana in season2 as well as Kormir's Journal in Facing the Truth both mention that Kormir "died" whem she ascended. > > This sort of conflicts with the lore around Dwayna and Grenth though, since she's clearly still "alive" enough to get knocked up by a mortal. I'm pretty sure that wouldn't work with a ghost, or anomaly, or djinn, though I guess I could be wrong if biology works very, very differently in Tyria. Don't know if it's a retcon, if the relationship of Dwayna and Grenth is a lie, or if there's some explanation for the conflict. As has already been commented, it's not necessarily a good assumption that just because Dwayna apparently had Malchor's "child", that the process is anything at all like how mortals have children. It might, for instance, have involved taking some of his spiritual essence and using it as a seed to add her own essence, drawing in the creative energy of the Mists to form a new being out of the combination of the two essences, similar to the creation of Razah except much more powerful. Which she might then have regarded as her son because _that's simply how gods have children._ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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