Blocki.4931 Posted July 19, 2018 Share Posted July 19, 2018 > @"Ephemiel.5694" said: > > @"Blocki.4931" said: > > > @"Ephemiel.5694" said: > > > > @"Tachenon.5270" said: > > > > If Balthazar is no longer a god, then why is Kormir so dead set against helping out against him? > > > > > > > > Commander: You don't have to go. You could stay. Fight with us. > > > > Kormir: You ask for a war between the gods. Do you not know the cost of such a battle? > > > > > > > > She goes on to describe the conflict with Abaddon, then adds -- > > > > > > > > Kormir: There is no victory to be found in a war between the gods. Only casualties. > > > > Commander: I understand...but we don't have the choice you have. We have to fight. > > > > Commander: Balthazar doesn't care whether he destroys Tyria. He said so himself. > > > > > > > > So... is he or isn't he? Perhaps only his hairdresser knows for sure. > > > > > > This is what happens when the writing team backs themselves into a corner. They say they stripped him of his divinity and power, yet still say he's a God and cannot intervene. > > > > > > And like i said, he reignited his sword, doing that couldn't possibly make the sword stronger than him or else the GOD OF WAR would not have let Rytlock leave with it. > > > > You misunderstand. It's less the fact that HE is a God, it's the fact that SHE is a God and the Six as a whole have already decided they no longer partake in such fights. She would have gone against their agreement & perhaps faced repercussions based on that. > > > > He reignited Sohothin so he could be freed, but in his weakened state he could never have taken it back by force. He either expected to take it back later OR never expected to be attacked BY it at a later point. He didn't sound very surprised when he saw Rytlock during The Departing, but I am sure he didn't expect to ever meet him again outside the mists. > > 1. She flatout says that he's still a God even after saying they removed his divinity. If the Gods thought he needed to be subdued, it should have been obvious that they would want to step in if someone not only freed him, but he also absorbed power from 2 Elder Dragons. > 2. How did he reignite his sword [which was made with his power btw] when he's supposed to have no power and was chained to the Mists? Clearly he still had a lot of power and could simply not use it because he was trapped. The quoted lines don't say he is still a God, where is it said? And yes, they couldn't remove 100% of his power because obviously that meant killing him entirely. He is still a powerful entity, powerful enough to reignite a weapon he created. It doesn't need godly power to spark a flame in an artifact you created yourself I would imagine. The weapon itself wields a lot of power as well, see his reignition more like a kickstart to get it back running. As others have pointed out the physiology of Gods is different to simple humans. We don't have any understanding of how they work, but it is safe to say that whatever changes he went under when he became a God couldn't just be reversed. The power he wielded however could be taken away from him. It is tied to his being, whatever that may be. Everything has a certain power level and I would certainly put the level of a "former God" still pretty high on the list. God or not is arguing semantics at this point, since he clearly didn't have that power anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Overlord RainyDay.2084 Posted July 19, 2018 Share Posted July 19, 2018 Magic of any type seems to be able to change or corrupt living (and sometimes nonliving) things that encounter it in high enough concentrations. The changes usually seem to be permanent, but how well you can handle it is up to the individual. Even the commander isn't immune, with us already seeing strange effects after HoT. Since then we've channeled ley energy in Siren's Landing, gained heat-resistance powers from druids, had a binding ritual placed on us by an ancient seer artifact, met a god, got killed by a god, revived ourselves by releasing soul power from some kind of demon, destroyed a massive dragon-powered construct, stood within 15 feet of a dying god, communed with the scion, mined brandstones with our bare hands, and generally threw ourselves headfirst into every magical field we could find. Is our physiology even still normal compared to others of our race? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
castlemanic.3198 Posted July 19, 2018 Share Posted July 19, 2018 > @"Ephemiel.5694" said: > > @"Tachenon.5270" said: > > If Balthazar is no longer a god, then why is Kormir so dead set against helping out against him? > > > > Commander: You don't have to go. You could stay. Fight with us. > > Kormir: You ask for a war between the gods. Do you not know the cost of such a battle? > > > > She goes on to describe the conflict with Abaddon, then adds -- > > > > Kormir: There is no victory to be found in a war between the gods. Only casualties. > > Commander: I understand...but we don't have the choice you have. We have to fight. > > Commander: Balthazar doesn't care whether he destroys Tyria. He said so himself. > > > > So... is he or isn't he? Perhaps only his hairdresser knows for sure. > > This is what happens when the writing team backs themselves into a corner. They say they stripped him of his divinity and power, yet still say he's a God and cannot intervene. > > And like i said, he reignited his sword, doing that couldn't possibly make the sword stronger than him or else the GOD OF WAR would not have let Rytlock leave with it. ~~I agree that the writers wrote themselves into a corner. Kormir could have easily stated that she had other duties to attend to, ones she could not speak about (which then get revealed in the lore book for Crystal Oasis, the Garden of the Gods) but the developers chose to instead talk about Kormir's past fight against Abaddon. It's a very weird way of revealing to people who only play GW2 about what happened in Nightfall because it misses the point about Balthazar's divinity being stripped from him.~~ Konig mentions Kormir's intent when she drops that 'war between gods' line below, so I'll scratch this out. I wanted to mention it but didn't have the right words for it so I omitted it. I also wouldn't have tied it to the Abaddon exposition the way Konig did so read his post about it. I do NOT agree with the second point, however. Balthazar has absolutely no information on what's going on in Tyria. He's been chained for who knows how long and finally has an opportunity to escape his bonds. He reignites the sword, probably the only thing in the mists that can break his bonds, and promises to Rytlock that he'll open a portal back to Tyria. Unknowingly to Rytlock, Balthazar uses the portal as his escape method. He has no idea that Rytlock is this defender of Tyria. He doesn't even know what's going on until he leaves the mists, after Rytlock is gone and with him the sword. Balthazar also wouldn't have an idea that Rytlock would have followed him to the desert. Remember, Rytlock's first encounter with Balthazar is in the crystal desert. Balthazar, by this point, has also absorbed the energy of an exploding bloodstone and drained two elder dragons at such a rapid pace that they fell asleep. And again, I do think the intent is that Balthazar is entirely stripped of his divinity and also stripped of most of his power. Because the PRIMARY difference between Balthazar and Kormir, as seen in path of fire, is that we get temporarily blinded by Kormir as soon as we are in her presence and for the entire time she's there. The blinding factor IS a sign in and of itself of divinity. We know about the blinding thing because of Malchor's story, the sculptor who created statues in the images of the gods. He supposedly went blind after looking at them for an instance each (long enough to have memorised Dwayna's image so perfectly that he could recreate it in stone despite being blind by that point). https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Malchor_the_Sculptor Balthazar doesn't make us blinded. At all. In any way, shape or form. While it may be an exaggeration of how short an amount of time Malchor looked at each god, the blindness proves divinity, and the lack of it proves that Balthazar is not a god. Which means that the god powered sword would be able to easily pierce the defenses of a very powerful non-divine being. Balthazar is NO LONGER the god of war. Again, Kormir's stance doesn't make sense in light of this. She would know that taking on Balthazar is a vastly different beast than taking on Abaddon (she's literally the god of knowledge). But I think the other evidence and intent stands as proof enough that Balthazar isn't a god anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
perilisk.1874 Posted July 19, 2018 Share Posted July 19, 2018 > @"castlemanic.3198" said: > Seemingly from the conversation, Balthazar's very _divinity_ was stripped. Maybe, although "title and claim" could just as easily mean that he lost his membership in their guild. I mean, if I kick Braham out of Dragon's Watch, it doesn't mean he has lost any power or fighting ability. The main reason people think he was stripped of divinity is because (i) he had to go after the Bloodstone and dragons to get juiced up, and wasn't all that tough when we first fought him, suggesting he was de-powered, and (ii) we could kill him without having someone suck up the power and become a new god. Now (ii) is iffy because we didn't have a dragon around when we killed Abaddon. However, it's possible that there's more to the Six than just power (a balancing system like the one the Elder Dragons belong to). Maybe there's a material difference between being a god and being one of The Six, much like killing Aurene would not threaten Tyria in the same sense as killing Kraalkatorik, even though there are similarities in their natures. It's also possible that there's a difference between being a god and having loads of magical power, considering the gods may have come from a low-magic world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
castlemanic.3198 Posted July 19, 2018 Share Posted July 19, 2018 > @"perilisk.1874" said: > Maybe, although "title and claim" could just as easily mean that he lost his membership in their guild. I mean, if I kick Braham out of Dragon's Watch, it doesn't mean he has lost any power or fighting ability. > > The main reason people think he was stripped of divinity is because (i) he had to go after the Bloodstone and dragons to get juiced up, and wasn't all that tough when we first fought him, suggesting he was de-powered, and (ii) we could kill him without having someone suck up the power and become a new god. Now (ii) is iffy because we didn't have a dragon around when we killed Abaddon. However, it's possible that there's more to the Six than just power (a balancing system like the one the Elder Dragons belong to). Maybe there's a material difference between being a god and being one of The Six, much like killing Aurene would not threaten Tyria in the same sense as killing Kraalkatorik, even though there are similarities in their natures. It's also possible that there's a difference between being a god and having loads of magical power, considering the gods may have come from a low-magic world. > > I see where you're coming from. I don't think I wholly agree with the premise though. We know that the six have a blinding aura (from Malchor's story and proven with Kormir's presence), whether that's tied to divinity itself or status as the six is kind of iffy and you're right to point out there can be a line that thin if necessary. I do however believe it is truly his divinity that was stripped, and not that he was demoted to 'god-lite', considering all the effort he went through to gain power and how Kralkatorrik and Aurene were able to eat up that magic. Divine power seems to have a negative effect on elder dragon minions. > Marjory Delaqua: Strange... As soon as you completed the ritual with the Divine Fire, the Mordrem got spooked and ran off. Almost like— > : Like it was warding them off? > Marjory Delaqua: Perhaps. Come on, we should probably hurry in case they return. and this part too > _After completing the ring of divine fire:_ > Braham Eirsson: Ha! It can't get out! Hit it with all you've got! https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Mystery_Cave While neither the shadow of the dragon or the general mordrem are Elder dragons in and of themselves, Aurene isn't an elder dragon either and thus would probably have had some negative effect from absorbing divine magic. You can also fairly state that we haven't seen if divine fire has an effect on other elder dragon minions, and that this effect may specifically be with divine fire and not the divine magic in a god, but I feel it is representative of how divine magic can affect elder dragons and their minions as a whole. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Konig Des Todes.2086 Posted July 19, 2018 Share Posted July 19, 2018 > @"Ephemiel.5694" said: > > But he IS a God. His powers may have been stripped [which....how did he reignite the sword then? Slight plothole there], but it's still his sword, it won't be stronger than him. > > Also, he DOES have a ton of their power since it was stated that they were forced into a pre-awakened state [and this is after they both gained a lot of magic from both Zhaitan and Mordremoth]. No. His power that was stripped is what made him a god. Without that power, hw has no divinity. He was a demigod at best. And yes, a 'ton' of power. But not two Elder Dragons worth. And certainly not a god's worth. Mowt energy that went through the machine and forced Primordus and Jormag into a coma went to the other dragons. We saw that happen. > @"Cristalyan.5728" said: > From 1 and 3 I can understand that even if the "divinity" was stripped from Balthazar, the spark of divinity remained into the sword. And by reigniting it (it seems that to do this is not necessary to be a god) the sword became stronger than its creator? Really? How can be a "god" so stupid? Instead using the sword as an object powered by his power - that means stronger when Balthazar is stronger and weaker (going to null godish strength) when Balthazar is weaker, he made an insanely powerful artifact, no matter if this artifact may be used against him. And making it to keep the divine power? Im not sure what exactly you're getting at here but 1) Balthazar didnt make the sqord stronger when reuniting it, 2) fitting with his honorable side from GW1, he let Rytlock keep the sword for freeing him, which was something Balthazar couldn't do at the time. > @"Cristalyan.5728" said: > Question: What is that "divinity"? It seems that this "divinity" is not part of a god from the birth. It can be achieved / stripped. Even by the humans. I bet the other races can achieve this also. So, if this "divinity" is something any mortal can achieve (even with the help of other gods), is this "divinity" a real divinity? What is the definition of "divinity" in the GW2 universe? We don't know exactly but what we do know is: 1. It is a specific kind of power, one that is volatile without a host, is fully unique, altwrs the physiology of the host, and cannot be destroyed. 2. There are seeminfly only six of these powers. 3. Not anyone can become a host for this power. The gods waited 1,075 years for a suitable host to replace Abaddon, and eben then Kormir needed a special bleasing from the other God's to be able to absorb that power and cease to be mortal. 4. When a new host absorbs the power unleashed by killing a host, the old host's will and knowledge remains and merges with the new host. By this merging of minds and wills, neither the mortal or the previous god remains in technicality. As Kormir said at the end of NF, she was Kormir "and much more" citing Abaddon's knowledge and broken will were paet of him. In the Parable of Balthazar after eating a coward's soul he said the soul's cowardice will be with him forever, suggesting that any and all souls merge into the god power. It is unclear how this affects successors where the predecessor doesn't die though. Or how former gods are altered by this. Suffice it to say, the Six are more than just super powered wizards. One way to think of it is not that Dwayna etc. are gods, but hosts for gods. That the power they house is the gods. Indestructible, immutable, but incapable of existing (peacefully) without a host. A host that they alter irrefutably and permanently, even if it leaves the host. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Konig Des Todes.2086 Posted July 19, 2018 Share Posted July 19, 2018 > @"Tachenon.5270" said: > If Balthazar is no longer a god, then why is Kormir so dead set against helping out against him? Basically Kormir is telling us that when full fledged gods fight wars, it devastates landacapes. But when mortals fight gods, it doesn't. This is why she talks about Abaddon's death. She's indirectly saying that mortals fighting a god is less destructive than a god fighting a god. Though Balthazar is no longer a dull-fledged god anymore he's still damn tough and a god fighting will always be like sending a nuke when a tactical strike would suffice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
perilisk.1874 Posted July 19, 2018 Share Posted July 19, 2018 > @"castlemanic.3198" said: > I see where you're coming from. I don't think I wholly agree with the premise though. We know that the six have a blinding aura (from Malchor's story and proven with Kormir's presence), whether that's tied to divinity itself or status as the six is kind of iffy and you're right to point out there can be a line that thin if necessary. Well, there's an easy way to find out, and maybe a raider (which I am not) could answer it. Dhuum is definitely considered a god in lore. Does he have a blinding aura when you face him in Hall of Chains? If so, it's a god thing, if not, then it's probably more of a Six thing. Or they just thought it would be bad fight mechanics, who knows. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
castlemanic.3198 Posted July 19, 2018 Share Posted July 19, 2018 > @"perilisk.1874" said: > > @"castlemanic.3198" said: > > I see where you're coming from. I don't think I wholly agree with the premise though. We know that the six have a blinding aura (from Malchor's story and proven with Kormir's presence), whether that's tied to divinity itself or status as the six is kind of iffy and you're right to point out there can be a line that thin if necessary. > > Well, there's an easy way to find out, and maybe a raider (which I am not) could answer it. Dhuum is definitely considered a god in lore. Does he have a blinding aura when you face him in Hall of Chains? If so, it's a god thing, if not, then it's probably more of a Six thing. Or they just thought it would be bad fight mechanics, who knows. > > Not really: > Dhuum is the **fallen** God of Death who was usurped and imprisoned by Grenth with the help of the Seven Reapers. Not the same as a god. It seems whatever Grenth did to usurp Dhuum was similar to what happened to Balthazar: > His power was transferred to Grenth who sealed the fallen god within the Hall of Judgment behind enchanted doors and layers of divine magic as the new God of Death was unable to destroy Dhuum. Except Dhuum retained more power than Balthazar and had a more direct path to gaining power (at least so it seems): > After Grenth's departure from the Underworld, Dhuum managed to reverse the seal placed on him and forced the River of Souls to be redirected and feed himself directly, further strengthening himself. If my previous theory is correct (that Kormir gained the knowledge on how to so powerfully strip divinity and power from a god after she took over from Abaddon), it would work with this, considering that Grenth may not have had the full scope of how to transfer all of Dhuums powers in such a way that made Dhuum vulnerable. And the gods wouldn't risk unleashing Dhuum because he would start a war with the gods and Kormir wanted to avoid battle with Balthazar, so the same or similar logic should apply to Dhuum as well. Seeing as Dhuums powers were transferred to Grenth (if not a full transfer of powers), it would suggest that he would fall in the same category as Balthazar, stripped of power/divinity. And so Dhuum really only works as another statistic similar to Balthazar, those who are stripped of their power/divinity no longer retain the blinding aura. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyson.5160 Posted July 20, 2018 Share Posted July 20, 2018 > @"norbes.3620" said: > > @"derd.6413" said: > > if the human gods know how to beat the EDs, why would they abandon tyria? (btw: it is confirmed they left because they couldn't win against the EDs) > > Ur missing a Little Detail here. it is not said that the gods cant win against the Dragons but that the fight itself would be too devastating to the world to be even considered without knowing the outcome of the battle. the Six could win and it would still be the end to planet Tyria. or the Dragons win and the unleashed divine Magic destroys tyria and the Dragons with it. > > it's a loss - loss Situation for the Six to enter a direct fight against the Dragons. > > and still its a whole different Story why they retreat entirely. with their knowledge and skills should still be ways to fight the Dragons without open confrontation. > but we learned that the forgotten told the Six some stuff so we can assume that the forgotten had more knowledge and wisdom. > > it is possible that the gods left cuz the world reached a Point that got predicted to some extend in the past and things went in a way that this would be the best Option available they reached together with the forgotten. or the world is so far away from the predictions of the forgotten that they retreated cuz they just did not know how to continue and now are searching for a better realm for the humans to live. > > in best case some place with Magic cuz lot of tyrians just dont know how to live without It’s a lose/lose situation from the Gods stand point. I tried to find the exact quote from Kormir, so far, I found this: Kormir: Come and see for yourselves. Perhaps then you'll understand. Kormir: We, the gods, saw there could be no victory in our inevitable conflict with the Elder Dragons. Kormir: Waging war with them could only lead to the destruction of Tyria—and we, the Six, would be the match that would start the blaze. Kormir: And so, we chose to withdraw from Tyria altogether, and spare this world further calamity... Or rather, most of us chose to. What’s actually kinda interesting is that I swore she said the dragon’s could kill the gods, but I couldn’t for the life of me, find the quote, until I replayed the Daybreak trailer: Kormir says this: Kormir: We, the gods, saw there could be no victory in our inevitable conflict with the Elder Dragons. That conflict can only end in two ways; the ruin of the Six or the utter destruction of Tyria’s magical balance. If the Six get destroyed in Tyria, I’m pretty sure the end of Tyria and if they kill the dragon’s that is also the end of Tyria. Kinda makes sense why they retreated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kholem.6092 Posted July 20, 2018 Author Share Posted July 20, 2018 Sorry had no time recently but cheers for the feedback! Reading through it all and good points raised that I didn't think about or are already established. Just skim reading now but will read this all properly when I get a moment :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cristalyan.5728 Posted July 20, 2018 Share Posted July 20, 2018 > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said: > > We don't know exactly but what we do know is: > 1. It is a specific kind of power, one that is volatile without a host, is fully unique, altwrs the physiology of the host, and cannot be destroyed. > 2. There are seeminfly only six of these powers. > 3. Not anyone can become a host for this power. The gods waited 1,075 years for a suitable host to replace Abaddon, and eben then Kormir needed a special bleasing from the other God's to be able to absorb that power and cease to be mortal. > 4. When a new host absorbs the power unleashed by killing a host, the old host's will and knowledge remains and merges with the new host. By this merging of minds and wills, neither the mortal or the previous god remains in technicality. As Kormir said at the end of NF, she was Kormir "and much more" citing Abaddon's knowledge and broken will were paet of him. In the Parable of Balthazar after eating a coward's soul he said the soul's cowardice will be with him forever, suggesting that any and all souls merge into the god power. It is unclear how this affects successors where the predecessor doesn't die though. Or how former gods are altered by this. > > Suffice it to say, the Six are more than just super powered wizards. > > One way to think of it is not that Dwayna etc. are gods, but hosts for gods. That the power they house is the gods. Indestructible, immutable, but incapable of existing (peacefully) without a host. A host that they alter irrefutably and permanently, even if it leaves the host. Although your explanations brings some light, on the other hand if the things are like that, then we have even more contradictory facts: The divine power "**It is a specific kind of power, one that is volatile without a host, is fully unique, altwrs the physiology of the host, and cannot be destroyed.**". If true, that means it exists as a whole, indivisible and able to exists even without a host. The host is only needed for interacting with the mortals. The gods "stripped" Balthazar of his divine power. Despite the statement of Kormir that "There is no victory to be found in a war between the gods. Only casualties." implying that a war between gods could potentially destroy Tyria, the gods attacked Balthazar, ending in removing his "divinity". BUT: That means this power has been absorbed by somebody (one of the other gods presumably). The divine power altering the physiology of the host, and the new host getting the intact will and knowledge of the other god that means in this moment Balthazar exists in another god. So, Kormir's statement that in this moment only **five** gods remains is false. Also, using this logic we can safely consider that Kormir is in fact Abadon. (because only the host is changed - the power remain the same). Then what was the point in fighting Abadon? Or, if all the remaining gods absorbed a part of its power, that means the "divine power" is not indestructible/indivisible. Or, if nobody absorbed Balthazar's divine power, that means in this moment Tyris is destroyed ?!?! But if we consider the following statement as TRUE: "**As Kormir said at the end of NF, she was Kormir "and much more" citing Abaddon's knowledge and broken will were paet of him**.", then the statement " **One way to think of it is not that Dwayna etc. are gods, but hosts for gods. That the power they house is the gods. Indestructible, immutable, but incapable of existing (peacefully) without a host. A host that they alter irrefutably and permanently, even if it leaves the host.**" is false. Because it seems that this immutable, indestructible absolute power is not altering the host at all but the host is changing it to fit its needs. We can conclude that not the power models the host, but the host changes the power. If so, it is possible that in time, after several generation of fallen gods to obtain a power in a god pretty similar with what another god has. That means these powers are not unique? As for: "**Not anyone can become a host for this power. The gods waited 1,075 years for a suitable host to replace Abaddon, and eben then Kormir needed a special bleasing**" - my opinion is that the gods did not wait this period for Kormir. This period of time was necessary to Abadon to regain a part of his strength and to be able to threaten the world again. Not Kormir's characteristics/parameters/qualities decided the issue, but the "god blessing". This was the key for turning a mortal into ..... one like them. So, I keep my opinion - with the help of advanced magic (or advanced technology) every single mortal can absorb a "god' power, becoming one of them. My conclusion is that if this may be indeed the definition agreed by the lore team for "divine power" this leads to a lot of contradiction. Including the possibility that Abadon still lives under a different appearance - Kormir, including the fact that the God of War is still alive, waiting for a new host, and not excluding the possibility that what I stated before is true: the "gods" are a bunch of charlatans taking advantage of the humans immaturity and claiming they are gods. As a matter of personal taste, I don't like very much the "host" variant. A host is needed by a parasite and not by a god. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyson.5160 Posted July 20, 2018 Share Posted July 20, 2018 > @"Cristalyan.5728" said: > > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said: > > > > > We don't know exactly but what we do know is: > > 1. It is a specific kind of power, one that is volatile without a host, is fully unique, altwrs the physiology of the host, and cannot be destroyed. > > 2. There are seeminfly only six of these powers. > > 3. Not anyone can become a host for this power. The gods waited 1,075 years for a suitable host to replace Abaddon, and eben then Kormir needed a special bleasing from the other God's to be able to absorb that power and cease to be mortal. > > 4. When a new host absorbs the power unleashed by killing a host, the old host's will and knowledge remains and merges with the new host. By this merging of minds and wills, neither the mortal or the previous god remains in technicality. As Kormir said at the end of NF, she was Kormir "and much more" citing Abaddon's knowledge and broken will were paet of him. In the Parable of Balthazar after eating a coward's soul he said the soul's cowardice will be with him forever, suggesting that any and all souls merge into the god power. It is unclear how this affects successors where the predecessor doesn't die though. Or how former gods are altered by this. > > > > Suffice it to say, the Six are more than just super powered wizards. > > > > One way to think of it is not that Dwayna etc. are gods, but hosts for gods. That the power they house is the gods. Indestructible, immutable, but incapable of existing (peacefully) without a host. A host that they alter irrefutably and permanently, even if it leaves the host. > > Although your explanations brings some light, on the other hand if the things are like that, then we have even more contradictory facts: > > The divine power "**It is a specific kind of power, one that is volatile without a host, is fully unique, altwrs the physiology of the host, and cannot be destroyed.**". If true, that means it exists as a whole, indivisible and able to exists even without a host. The host is only needed for interacting with the mortals. The gods "stripped" Balthazar of his divine power. Despite the statement of Kormir that "There is no victory to be found in a war between the gods. Only casualties." implying that a war between gods could potentially destroy Tyria, the gods attacked Balthazar, ending in removing his "divinity". > BUT: That means this power has been absorbed by somebody (one of the other gods presumably). The divine power altering the physiology of the host, and the new host getting the intact will and knowledge of the other god that means in this moment Balthazar exists in another god. So, Kormir's statement that in this moment only **five** gods remains is false. Also, using this logic we can safely consider that Kormir is in fact Abadon. (because only the host is changed - the power remain the same). Then what was the point in fighting Abadon? Or, if all the remaining gods absorbed a part of its power, that means the "divine power" is not indestructible/indivisible. Or, if nobody absorbed Balthazar's divine power, that means in this moment Tyris is destroyed ?!?! > > But if we consider the following statement as TRUE: "**As Kormir said at the end of NF, she was Kormir "and much more" citing Abaddon's knowledge and broken will were paet of him**.", then the statement " **One way to think of it is not that Dwayna etc. are gods, but hosts for gods. That the power they house is the gods. Indestructible, immutable, but incapable of existing (peacefully) without a host. A host that they alter irrefutably and permanently, even if it leaves the host.**" is false. Because it seems that this immutable, indestructible absolute power is not altering the host at all but the host is changing it to fit its needs. We can conclude that not the power models the host, but the host changes the power. If so, it is possible that in time, after several generation of fallen gods to obtain a power in a god pretty similar with what another god has. That means these powers are not unique? > > As for: "**Not anyone can become a host for this power. The gods waited 1,075 years for a suitable host to replace Abaddon, and eben then Kormir needed a special bleasing**" - my opinion is that the gods did not wait this period for Kormir. This period of time was necessary to Abadon to regain a part of his strength and to be able to threaten the world again. Not Kormir's characteristics/parameters/qualities decided the issue, but the "god blessing". This was the key for turning a mortal into ..... one like them. So, I keep my opinion - with the help of advanced magic (or advanced technology) every single mortal can absorb a "god' power, becoming one of them. > > My conclusion is that if this may be indeed the definition agreed by the lore team for "divine power" this leads to a lot of contradiction. Including the possibility that Abadon still lives under a different appearance - Kormir, including the fact that the God of War is still alive, waiting for a new host, and not excluding the possibility that what I stated before is true: the "gods" are a bunch of charlatans taking advantage of the humans immaturity and claiming they are gods. > > As a matter of personal taste, I don't like very much the "host" variant. A host is needed by a parasite and not by a god. In regards to Kormir and Abaddon, this is what the game tells us: PL: "Kormir?" Kormir: "No. Yes. Kormir. And much more." PL: "Abaddon?" Kormir: "No. His power. His knowledge. But not him. His will is broken. There is a new god of secrets. There is a new day." She kinda is Abaddon and she kinda isn’t. It’s kinda strange because Kormir inherits Abaddon’s power and his knowledge. It would be like if you took over some other person and gained their strength and the knowledge. I guess the difference here is that now Kormir decides what to do with the same power and knowledge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tachenon.5270 Posted July 20, 2018 Share Posted July 20, 2018 Maybe it's like this: Divine Power = Jello of various flavors. The Gods = Jello molds of various shapes. Abaddon was a lobster-shaped mold and Kormir is a pineapple-shaped mold, but the divine power filling both is, I dunno, lemon-flavored. So they're the same thing, 'cept different. This came to me early this morning before I imbibed the divine magic of coffee, so... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
perilisk.1874 Posted July 20, 2018 Share Posted July 20, 2018 > @"Tyson.5160" said: > She kinda is Abaddon and she kinda isn’t. It’s kinda strange because Kormir inherits Abaddon’s power and his knowledge. It would be like if you took over some other person and gained their strength and the knowledge. I guess the difference here is that now Kormir decides what to do with the same power and knowledge. Maybe it's more like the god is a non-sapient magitechnical construct, with powers and databanks and the ability to project a pseudo-physical form, and she is a personality uploaded to it which determines its form and attitude and behaviors. It's not unlike the concept of binding a soul to an artifact, except the "artifact" has power on the order of an Infinity Gem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyson.5160 Posted July 20, 2018 Share Posted July 20, 2018 > @"castlemanic.3198" said: > > @"perilisk.1874" said: > > > @"castlemanic.3198" said: > > > I see where you're coming from. I don't think I wholly agree with the premise though. We know that the six have a blinding aura (from Malchor's story and proven with Kormir's presence), whether that's tied to divinity itself or status as the six is kind of iffy and you're right to point out there can be a line that thin if necessary. > > > > Well, there's an easy way to find out, and maybe a raider (which I am not) could answer it. Dhuum is definitely considered a god in lore. Does he have a blinding aura when you face him in Hall of Chains? If so, it's a god thing, if not, then it's probably more of a Six thing. Or they just thought it would be bad fight mechanics, who knows. > > > > > > Not really: > > > Dhuum is the **fallen** God of Death who was usurped and imprisoned by Grenth with the help of the Seven Reapers. > > Not the same as a god. It seems whatever Grenth did to usurp Dhuum was similar to what happened to Balthazar: > > > His power was transferred to Grenth who sealed the fallen god within the Hall of Judgment behind enchanted doors and layers of divine magic as the new God of Death was unable to destroy Dhuum. > > Except Dhuum retained more power than Balthazar and had a more direct path to gaining power (at least so it seems): > > > After Grenth's departure from the Underworld, Dhuum managed to reverse the seal placed on him and forced the River of Souls to be redirected and feed himself directly, further strengthening himself. > > If my previous theory is correct (that Kormir gained the knowledge on how to so powerfully strip divinity and power from a god after she took over from Abaddon), it would work with this, considering that Grenth may not have had the full scope of how to transfer all of Dhuums powers in such a way that made Dhuum vulnerable. And the gods wouldn't risk unleashing Dhuum because he would start a war with the gods and Kormir wanted to avoid battle with Balthazar, so the same or similar logic should apply to Dhuum as well. > > Seeing as Dhuums powers were transferred to Grenth (if not a full transfer of powers), it would suggest that he would fall in the same category as Balthazar, stripped of power/divinity. And so Dhuum really only works as another statistic similar to Balthazar, those who are stripped of their power/divinity no longer retain the blinding aura. With Abaddon being the god secrets, this would kinda of make sense if he was the only one who knew or had the ability to usurp that divine power, and since Kormir has that knowledge, could then do the same to Balthazar. It could be one of the reasons Dhuum aligned with Abaddon because he knew how to transfer that divinity back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ephemiel.5694 Posted July 20, 2018 Share Posted July 20, 2018 > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > @"Cristalyan.5728" said: > > > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said: > > > > > > > > We don't know exactly but what we do know is: > > > 1. It is a specific kind of power, one that is volatile without a host, is fully unique, altwrs the physiology of the host, and cannot be destroyed. > > > 2. There are seeminfly only six of these powers. > > > 3. Not anyone can become a host for this power. The gods waited 1,075 years for a suitable host to replace Abaddon, and eben then Kormir needed a special bleasing from the other God's to be able to absorb that power and cease to be mortal. > > > 4. When a new host absorbs the power unleashed by killing a host, the old host's will and knowledge remains and merges with the new host. By this merging of minds and wills, neither the mortal or the previous god remains in technicality. As Kormir said at the end of NF, she was Kormir "and much more" citing Abaddon's knowledge and broken will were paet of him. In the Parable of Balthazar after eating a coward's soul he said the soul's cowardice will be with him forever, suggesting that any and all souls merge into the god power. It is unclear how this affects successors where the predecessor doesn't die though. Or how former gods are altered by this. > > > > > > Suffice it to say, the Six are more than just super powered wizards. > > > > > > One way to think of it is not that Dwayna etc. are gods, but hosts for gods. That the power they house is the gods. Indestructible, immutable, but incapable of existing (peacefully) without a host. A host that they alter irrefutably and permanently, even if it leaves the host. > > > > Although your explanations brings some light, on the other hand if the things are like that, then we have even more contradictory facts: > > > > The divine power "**It is a specific kind of power, one that is volatile without a host, is fully unique, altwrs the physiology of the host, and cannot be destroyed.**". If true, that means it exists as a whole, indivisible and able to exists even without a host. The host is only needed for interacting with the mortals. The gods "stripped" Balthazar of his divine power. Despite the statement of Kormir that "There is no victory to be found in a war between the gods. Only casualties." implying that a war between gods could potentially destroy Tyria, the gods attacked Balthazar, ending in removing his "divinity". > > BUT: That means this power has been absorbed by somebody (one of the other gods presumably). The divine power altering the physiology of the host, and the new host getting the intact will and knowledge of the other god that means in this moment Balthazar exists in another god. So, Kormir's statement that in this moment only **five** gods remains is false. Also, using this logic we can safely consider that Kormir is in fact Abadon. (because only the host is changed - the power remain the same). Then what was the point in fighting Abadon? Or, if all the remaining gods absorbed a part of its power, that means the "divine power" is not indestructible/indivisible. Or, if nobody absorbed Balthazar's divine power, that means in this moment Tyris is destroyed ?!?! > > > > But if we consider the following statement as TRUE: "**As Kormir said at the end of NF, she was Kormir "and much more" citing Abaddon's knowledge and broken will were paet of him**.", then the statement " **One way to think of it is not that Dwayna etc. are gods, but hosts for gods. That the power they house is the gods. Indestructible, immutable, but incapable of existing (peacefully) without a host. A host that they alter irrefutably and permanently, even if it leaves the host.**" is false. Because it seems that this immutable, indestructible absolute power is not altering the host at all but the host is changing it to fit its needs. We can conclude that not the power models the host, but the host changes the power. If so, it is possible that in time, after several generation of fallen gods to obtain a power in a god pretty similar with what another god has. That means these powers are not unique? > > > > As for: "**Not anyone can become a host for this power. The gods waited 1,075 years for a suitable host to replace Abaddon, and eben then Kormir needed a special bleasing**" - my opinion is that the gods did not wait this period for Kormir. This period of time was necessary to Abadon to regain a part of his strength and to be able to threaten the world again. Not Kormir's characteristics/parameters/qualities decided the issue, but the "god blessing". This was the key for turning a mortal into ..... one like them. So, I keep my opinion - with the help of advanced magic (or advanced technology) every single mortal can absorb a "god' power, becoming one of them. > > > > My conclusion is that if this may be indeed the definition agreed by the lore team for "divine power" this leads to a lot of contradiction. Including the possibility that Abadon still lives under a different appearance - Kormir, including the fact that the God of War is still alive, waiting for a new host, and not excluding the possibility that what I stated before is true: the "gods" are a bunch of charlatans taking advantage of the humans immaturity and claiming they are gods. > > > > As a matter of personal taste, I don't like very much the "host" variant. A host is needed by a parasite and not by a god. > > In regards to Kormir and Abaddon, this is what the game tells us: > > PL: "Kormir?" > Kormir: "No. Yes. Kormir. And much more." > PL: "Abaddon?" > Kormir: "No. His power. His knowledge. But not him. His will is broken. There is a new god of secrets. There is a new day." > > She kinda is Abaddon and she kinda isn’t. It’s kinda strange because Kormir inherits Abaddon’s power and his knowledge. It would be like if you took over some other person and gained their strength and the knowledge. I guess the difference here is that now Kormir decides what to do with the same power and knowledge. Then what would you say about Dhuum and Grenth? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyson.5160 Posted July 20, 2018 Share Posted July 20, 2018 > @"Ephemiel.5694" said: > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > @"Cristalyan.5728" said: > > > > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said: > > > > > > > > > > > We don't know exactly but what we do know is: > > > > 1. It is a specific kind of power, one that is volatile without a host, is fully unique, altwrs the physiology of the host, and cannot be destroyed. > > > > 2. There are seeminfly only six of these powers. > > > > 3. Not anyone can become a host for this power. The gods waited 1,075 years for a suitable host to replace Abaddon, and eben then Kormir needed a special bleasing from the other God's to be able to absorb that power and cease to be mortal. > > > > 4. When a new host absorbs the power unleashed by killing a host, the old host's will and knowledge remains and merges with the new host. By this merging of minds and wills, neither the mortal or the previous god remains in technicality. As Kormir said at the end of NF, she was Kormir "and much more" citing Abaddon's knowledge and broken will were paet of him. In the Parable of Balthazar after eating a coward's soul he said the soul's cowardice will be with him forever, suggesting that any and all souls merge into the god power. It is unclear how this affects successors where the predecessor doesn't die though. Or how former gods are altered by this. > > > > > > > > Suffice it to say, the Six are more than just super powered wizards. > > > > > > > > One way to think of it is not that Dwayna etc. are gods, but hosts for gods. That the power they house is the gods. Indestructible, immutable, but incapable of existing (peacefully) without a host. A host that they alter irrefutably and permanently, even if it leaves the host. > > > > > > Although your explanations brings some light, on the other hand if the things are like that, then we have even more contradictory facts: > > > > > > The divine power "**It is a specific kind of power, one that is volatile without a host, is fully unique, altwrs the physiology of the host, and cannot be destroyed.**". If true, that means it exists as a whole, indivisible and able to exists even without a host. The host is only needed for interacting with the mortals. The gods "stripped" Balthazar of his divine power. Despite the statement of Kormir that "There is no victory to be found in a war between the gods. Only casualties." implying that a war between gods could potentially destroy Tyria, the gods attacked Balthazar, ending in removing his "divinity". > > > BUT: That means this power has been absorbed by somebody (one of the other gods presumably). The divine power altering the physiology of the host, and the new host getting the intact will and knowledge of the other god that means in this moment Balthazar exists in another god. So, Kormir's statement that in this moment only **five** gods remains is false. Also, using this logic we can safely consider that Kormir is in fact Abadon. (because only the host is changed - the power remain the same). Then what was the point in fighting Abadon? Or, if all the remaining gods absorbed a part of its power, that means the "divine power" is not indestructible/indivisible. Or, if nobody absorbed Balthazar's divine power, that means in this moment Tyris is destroyed ?!?! > > > > > > But if we consider the following statement as TRUE: "**As Kormir said at the end of NF, she was Kormir "and much more" citing Abaddon's knowledge and broken will were paet of him**.", then the statement " **One way to think of it is not that Dwayna etc. are gods, but hosts for gods. That the power they house is the gods. Indestructible, immutable, but incapable of existing (peacefully) without a host. A host that they alter irrefutably and permanently, even if it leaves the host.**" is false. Because it seems that this immutable, indestructible absolute power is not altering the host at all but the host is changing it to fit its needs. We can conclude that not the power models the host, but the host changes the power. If so, it is possible that in time, after several generation of fallen gods to obtain a power in a god pretty similar with what another god has. That means these powers are not unique? > > > > > > As for: "**Not anyone can become a host for this power. The gods waited 1,075 years for a suitable host to replace Abaddon, and eben then Kormir needed a special bleasing**" - my opinion is that the gods did not wait this period for Kormir. This period of time was necessary to Abadon to regain a part of his strength and to be able to threaten the world again. Not Kormir's characteristics/parameters/qualities decided the issue, but the "god blessing". This was the key for turning a mortal into ..... one like them. So, I keep my opinion - with the help of advanced magic (or advanced technology) every single mortal can absorb a "god' power, becoming one of them. > > > > > > My conclusion is that if this may be indeed the definition agreed by the lore team for "divine power" this leads to a lot of contradiction. Including the possibility that Abadon still lives under a different appearance - Kormir, including the fact that the God of War is still alive, waiting for a new host, and not excluding the possibility that what I stated before is true: the "gods" are a bunch of charlatans taking advantage of the humans immaturity and claiming they are gods. > > > > > > As a matter of personal taste, I don't like very much the "host" variant. A host is needed by a parasite and not by a god. > > > > In regards to Kormir and Abaddon, this is what the game tells us: > > > > PL: "Kormir?" > > Kormir: "No. Yes. Kormir. And much more." > > PL: "Abaddon?" > > Kormir: "No. His power. His knowledge. But not him. His will is broken. There is a new god of secrets. There is a new day." > > > > She kinda is Abaddon and she kinda isn’t. It’s kinda strange because Kormir inherits Abaddon’s power and his knowledge. It would be like if you took over some other person and gained their strength and the knowledge. I guess the difference here is that now Kormir decides what to do with the same power and knowledge. > > Then what would you say about Dhuum and Grenth? The thing is Dhuum was never killed like Abaddon was, had it been the same scenario, it would play like the Abbadon/Kormir imo. I liked castlemaniac’s theory, where Abaddon/Kormir held the secret ritual of transferring divinity without killing the one being usurped. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ephemiel.5694 Posted July 21, 2018 Share Posted July 21, 2018 > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > @"Ephemiel.5694" said: > > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > > @"Cristalyan.5728" said: > > > > > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We don't know exactly but what we do know is: > > > > > 1. It is a specific kind of power, one that is volatile without a host, is fully unique, altwrs the physiology of the host, and cannot be destroyed. > > > > > 2. There are seeminfly only six of these powers. > > > > > 3. Not anyone can become a host for this power. The gods waited 1,075 years for a suitable host to replace Abaddon, and eben then Kormir needed a special bleasing from the other God's to be able to absorb that power and cease to be mortal. > > > > > 4. When a new host absorbs the power unleashed by killing a host, the old host's will and knowledge remains and merges with the new host. By this merging of minds and wills, neither the mortal or the previous god remains in technicality. As Kormir said at the end of NF, she was Kormir "and much more" citing Abaddon's knowledge and broken will were paet of him. In the Parable of Balthazar after eating a coward's soul he said the soul's cowardice will be with him forever, suggesting that any and all souls merge into the god power. It is unclear how this affects successors where the predecessor doesn't die though. Or how former gods are altered by this. > > > > > > > > > > Suffice it to say, the Six are more than just super powered wizards. > > > > > > > > > > One way to think of it is not that Dwayna etc. are gods, but hosts for gods. That the power they house is the gods. Indestructible, immutable, but incapable of existing (peacefully) without a host. A host that they alter irrefutably and permanently, even if it leaves the host. > > > > > > > > Although your explanations brings some light, on the other hand if the things are like that, then we have even more contradictory facts: > > > > > > > > The divine power "**It is a specific kind of power, one that is volatile without a host, is fully unique, altwrs the physiology of the host, and cannot be destroyed.**". If true, that means it exists as a whole, indivisible and able to exists even without a host. The host is only needed for interacting with the mortals. The gods "stripped" Balthazar of his divine power. Despite the statement of Kormir that "There is no victory to be found in a war between the gods. Only casualties." implying that a war between gods could potentially destroy Tyria, the gods attacked Balthazar, ending in removing his "divinity". > > > > BUT: That means this power has been absorbed by somebody (one of the other gods presumably). The divine power altering the physiology of the host, and the new host getting the intact will and knowledge of the other god that means in this moment Balthazar exists in another god. So, Kormir's statement that in this moment only **five** gods remains is false. Also, using this logic we can safely consider that Kormir is in fact Abadon. (because only the host is changed - the power remain the same). Then what was the point in fighting Abadon? Or, if all the remaining gods absorbed a part of its power, that means the "divine power" is not indestructible/indivisible. Or, if nobody absorbed Balthazar's divine power, that means in this moment Tyris is destroyed ?!?! > > > > > > > > But if we consider the following statement as TRUE: "**As Kormir said at the end of NF, she was Kormir "and much more" citing Abaddon's knowledge and broken will were paet of him**.", then the statement " **One way to think of it is not that Dwayna etc. are gods, but hosts for gods. That the power they house is the gods. Indestructible, immutable, but incapable of existing (peacefully) without a host. A host that they alter irrefutably and permanently, even if it leaves the host.**" is false. Because it seems that this immutable, indestructible absolute power is not altering the host at all but the host is changing it to fit its needs. We can conclude that not the power models the host, but the host changes the power. If so, it is possible that in time, after several generation of fallen gods to obtain a power in a god pretty similar with what another god has. That means these powers are not unique? > > > > > > > > As for: "**Not anyone can become a host for this power. The gods waited 1,075 years for a suitable host to replace Abaddon, and eben then Kormir needed a special bleasing**" - my opinion is that the gods did not wait this period for Kormir. This period of time was necessary to Abadon to regain a part of his strength and to be able to threaten the world again. Not Kormir's characteristics/parameters/qualities decided the issue, but the "god blessing". This was the key for turning a mortal into ..... one like them. So, I keep my opinion - with the help of advanced magic (or advanced technology) every single mortal can absorb a "god' power, becoming one of them. > > > > > > > > My conclusion is that if this may be indeed the definition agreed by the lore team for "divine power" this leads to a lot of contradiction. Including the possibility that Abadon still lives under a different appearance - Kormir, including the fact that the God of War is still alive, waiting for a new host, and not excluding the possibility that what I stated before is true: the "gods" are a bunch of charlatans taking advantage of the humans immaturity and claiming they are gods. > > > > > > > > As a matter of personal taste, I don't like very much the "host" variant. A host is needed by a parasite and not by a god. > > > > > > In regards to Kormir and Abaddon, this is what the game tells us: > > > > > > PL: "Kormir?" > > > Kormir: "No. Yes. Kormir. And much more." > > > PL: "Abaddon?" > > > Kormir: "No. His power. His knowledge. But not him. His will is broken. There is a new god of secrets. There is a new day." > > > > > > She kinda is Abaddon and she kinda isn’t. It’s kinda strange because Kormir inherits Abaddon’s power and his knowledge. It would be like if you took over some other person and gained their strength and the knowledge. I guess the difference here is that now Kormir decides what to do with the same power and knowledge. > > > > Then what would you say about Dhuum and Grenth? > > The thing is Dhuum was never killed like Abaddon was, had it been the same scenario, it would play like the Abbadon/Kormir imo. > > I liked castlemaniac’s theory, where Abaddon/Kormir held the secret ritual of transferring divinity without killing the one being usurped. But then how did Grenth get power over Dhuum's dominion if they technically only sealed him away? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyson.5160 Posted July 21, 2018 Share Posted July 21, 2018 > @"Ephemiel.5694" said: > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > @"Ephemiel.5694" said: > > > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > > > @"Cristalyan.5728" said: > > > > > > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We don't know exactly but what we do know is: > > > > > > 1. It is a specific kind of power, one that is volatile without a host, is fully unique, altwrs the physiology of the host, and cannot be destroyed. > > > > > > 2. There are seeminfly only six of these powers. > > > > > > 3. Not anyone can become a host for this power. The gods waited 1,075 years for a suitable host to replace Abaddon, and eben then Kormir needed a special bleasing from the other God's to be able to absorb that power and cease to be mortal. > > > > > > 4. When a new host absorbs the power unleashed by killing a host, the old host's will and knowledge remains and merges with the new host. By this merging of minds and wills, neither the mortal or the previous god remains in technicality. As Kormir said at the end of NF, she was Kormir "and much more" citing Abaddon's knowledge and broken will were paet of him. In the Parable of Balthazar after eating a coward's soul he said the soul's cowardice will be with him forever, suggesting that any and all souls merge into the god power. It is unclear how this affects successors where the predecessor doesn't die though. Or how former gods are altered by this. > > > > > > > > > > > > Suffice it to say, the Six are more than just super powered wizards. > > > > > > > > > > > > One way to think of it is not that Dwayna etc. are gods, but hosts for gods. That the power they house is the gods. Indestructible, immutable, but incapable of existing (peacefully) without a host. A host that they alter irrefutably and permanently, even if it leaves the host. > > > > > > > > > > Although your explanations brings some light, on the other hand if the things are like that, then we have even more contradictory facts: > > > > > > > > > > The divine power "**It is a specific kind of power, one that is volatile without a host, is fully unique, altwrs the physiology of the host, and cannot be destroyed.**". If true, that means it exists as a whole, indivisible and able to exists even without a host. The host is only needed for interacting with the mortals. The gods "stripped" Balthazar of his divine power. Despite the statement of Kormir that "There is no victory to be found in a war between the gods. Only casualties." implying that a war between gods could potentially destroy Tyria, the gods attacked Balthazar, ending in removing his "divinity". > > > > > BUT: That means this power has been absorbed by somebody (one of the other gods presumably). The divine power altering the physiology of the host, and the new host getting the intact will and knowledge of the other god that means in this moment Balthazar exists in another god. So, Kormir's statement that in this moment only **five** gods remains is false. Also, using this logic we can safely consider that Kormir is in fact Abadon. (because only the host is changed - the power remain the same). Then what was the point in fighting Abadon? Or, if all the remaining gods absorbed a part of its power, that means the "divine power" is not indestructible/indivisible. Or, if nobody absorbed Balthazar's divine power, that means in this moment Tyris is destroyed ?!?! > > > > > > > > > > But if we consider the following statement as TRUE: "**As Kormir said at the end of NF, she was Kormir "and much more" citing Abaddon's knowledge and broken will were paet of him**.", then the statement " **One way to think of it is not that Dwayna etc. are gods, but hosts for gods. That the power they house is the gods. Indestructible, immutable, but incapable of existing (peacefully) without a host. A host that they alter irrefutably and permanently, even if it leaves the host.**" is false. Because it seems that this immutable, indestructible absolute power is not altering the host at all but the host is changing it to fit its needs. We can conclude that not the power models the host, but the host changes the power. If so, it is possible that in time, after several generation of fallen gods to obtain a power in a god pretty similar with what another god has. That means these powers are not unique? > > > > > > > > > > As for: "**Not anyone can become a host for this power. The gods waited 1,075 years for a suitable host to replace Abaddon, and eben then Kormir needed a special bleasing**" - my opinion is that the gods did not wait this period for Kormir. This period of time was necessary to Abadon to regain a part of his strength and to be able to threaten the world again. Not Kormir's characteristics/parameters/qualities decided the issue, but the "god blessing". This was the key for turning a mortal into ..... one like them. So, I keep my opinion - with the help of advanced magic (or advanced technology) every single mortal can absorb a "god' power, becoming one of them. > > > > > > > > > > My conclusion is that if this may be indeed the definition agreed by the lore team for "divine power" this leads to a lot of contradiction. Including the possibility that Abadon still lives under a different appearance - Kormir, including the fact that the God of War is still alive, waiting for a new host, and not excluding the possibility that what I stated before is true: the "gods" are a bunch of charlatans taking advantage of the humans immaturity and claiming they are gods. > > > > > > > > > > As a matter of personal taste, I don't like very much the "host" variant. A host is needed by a parasite and not by a god. > > > > > > > > In regards to Kormir and Abaddon, this is what the game tells us: > > > > > > > > PL: "Kormir?" > > > > Kormir: "No. Yes. Kormir. And much more." > > > > PL: "Abaddon?" > > > > Kormir: "No. His power. His knowledge. But not him. His will is broken. There is a new god of secrets. There is a new day." > > > > > > > > She kinda is Abaddon and she kinda isn’t. It’s kinda strange because Kormir inherits Abaddon’s power and his knowledge. It would be like if you took over some other person and gained their strength and the knowledge. I guess the difference here is that now Kormir decides what to do with the same power and knowledge. > > > > > > Then what would you say about Dhuum and Grenth? > > > > The thing is Dhuum was never killed like Abaddon was, had it been the same scenario, it would play like the Abbadon/Kormir imo. > > > > I liked castlemaniac’s theory, where Abaddon/Kormir held the secret ritual of transferring divinity without killing the one being usurped. > > But then how did Grenth get power over Dhuum's dominion if they technically only sealed him away? Here what we got in Gw1 regarding Dhuum, as told by king Frozen wind. Your lord is correct: dark things still stir in these depths. It is Dhuum, candy man! Death inevitable is not so dormant as we believed. Let me tell you the tale again in case it has not stuck in your mind. Long have the bards sung of Grenth's defeat of Dhuum, the former ruler of the Underworld. With the help of the rebellious Reapers, Grenth usurped Dhuum's throne. But the books and songs only tell part of the tale. You see, Dhuum was not fully destroyed; Grenth was simply not powerful enough to slay him. Instead, he forced Dhuum into a state of dormancy and imprisoned him within the Hall of Judgment, trapped behind massive enchanted doors and layers of divine magic. There Dhuum remained, slumbering...waiting. But his torpor is not so heavy that Dhuum does not occasionally wake. Then GW2 tells us this: Grenth, son of Dwayna, first god born of Tyria. His powers deal in mortality and judgment. Defeater of Dhuum, Lord of the Seven Reapers, he is the prince of ice and sorrow. Standing before his immortal mother, Grenth claimed his place among the gods. Where his father had fallen, Grenth would rise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
castlemanic.3198 Posted July 21, 2018 Share Posted July 21, 2018 > @"Ephemiel.5694" said: > But then how did Grenth get power over Dhuum's dominion if they technically only sealed him away? Grenth sealed Dhuum after having Dhuum's powers transferred into him, and Dhuum was sealed because Grenth had no way of destroying him even after the power transferral. Which is vastly different than Abaddon's death and Kormir taking in all of Abaddon. As for how that fits my theory, I have a couple of ideas. 1. Grenth is half god, so the mechanisms of power/divinity transferral may be simpler from god to god rather than god to mortal. 2. Because of the half god status, it may be that Grenth didn't necessarily need to gain all of Dhuum's power to take over the domain, so if a full transfer failed somehow, Grenth would still be able to overpower Dhuum and seal him away, and whatever was transferred was enough to become the new god of death. 3. It's entirely possible that Grenth's half god status may have been a key component to the seemingly non-complete transfer of power (and his seven reapers able to aid with transferring the power), otherwise if Grenth was fully human, the transferral may not have even worked to begin with. The possible ritual that Abaddon kept secret may have enabled a full transferral in the same method as what happened with Balthazar, stopping only short of killing the god to be replaced. Essentially, Grenth McGuyvered his way into ascension while Abaddon kept hold of the only method that would have put Dhuum in Balthazar's place. That's the theory anyway. It's a shot in the dark and I have a bunch of reasoning for it that I'll get into if someone asks, but this is the primary point for this discussion. (I don't really know how any of this factors into Konig's estimation of what divinity actually is) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyson.5160 Posted July 21, 2018 Share Posted July 21, 2018 > @"castlemanic.3198" said: > > @"Ephemiel.5694" said: > > But then how did Grenth get power over Dhuum's dominion if they technically only sealed him away? > > Grenth sealed Dhuum after having Dhuum's powers transferred into him, and Dhuum was sealed because Grenth had no way of destroying him even after the power transferral. Which is vastly different than Abaddon's death and Kormir taking in all of Abaddon. > > As for how that fits my theory, I have a couple of ideas. > > 1. Grenth is half god, so the mechanisms of power/divinity transferral may be simpler from god to god rather than god to mortal. > 2. Because of the half god status, it may be that Grenth didn't necessarily need to gain all of Dhuum's power to take over the domain, so if a full transfer failed somehow, Grenth would still be able to overpower Dhuum and seal him away, and whatever was transferred was enough to become the new god of death. > 3. It's entirely possible that Grenth's half god status may have been a key component to the seemingly non-complete transfer of power (and his seven reapers able to aid with transferring the power), otherwise if Grenth was fully human, the transferral may not have even worked to begin with. The possible ritual that Abaddon kept secret may have enabled a full transferral in the same method as what happened with Balthazar, stopping only short of killing the god to be replaced. > > Essentially, Grenth McGuyvered his way into ascension while Abaddon kept hold of the only method that would have put Dhuum in Balthazar's place. That's the theory anyway. > > It's a shot in the dark and I have a bunch of reasoning for it that I'll get into if someone asks, but this is the primary point for this discussion. (I don't really know how any of this factors into Konig's estimation of what divinity actually is) It logically makes sense though, you have a situation where a power transfer occurs pre-Abaddon’s fall and then you have a transfer post Abaddon fall. The gods probably had no other choice but to seal Abaddon away because of the many secret rituals he held including this divinity transfer. Since he and only he held this secret they couldn’t do a power transfer like they did with Dhuum and Grenth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
castlemanic.3198 Posted July 21, 2018 Share Posted July 21, 2018 > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > @"castlemanic.3198" said: > > > @"Ephemiel.5694" said: > > > But then how did Grenth get power over Dhuum's dominion if they technically only sealed him away? > > > > Grenth sealed Dhuum after having Dhuum's powers transferred into him, and Dhuum was sealed because Grenth had no way of destroying him even after the power transferral. Which is vastly different than Abaddon's death and Kormir taking in all of Abaddon. > > > > As for how that fits my theory, I have a couple of ideas. > > > > 1. Grenth is half god, so the mechanisms of power/divinity transferral may be simpler from god to god rather than god to mortal. > > 2. Because of the half god status, it may be that Grenth didn't necessarily need to gain all of Dhuum's power to take over the domain, so if a full transfer failed somehow, Grenth would still be able to overpower Dhuum and seal him away, and whatever was transferred was enough to become the new god of death. > > 3. It's entirely possible that Grenth's half god status may have been a key component to the seemingly non-complete transfer of power (and his seven reapers able to aid with transferring the power), otherwise if Grenth was fully human, the transferral may not have even worked to begin with. The possible ritual that Abaddon kept secret may have enabled a full transferral in the same method as what happened with Balthazar, stopping only short of killing the god to be replaced. > > > > Essentially, Grenth McGuyvered his way into ascension while Abaddon kept hold of the only method that would have put Dhuum in Balthazar's place. That's the theory anyway. > > > > It's a shot in the dark and I have a bunch of reasoning for it that I'll get into if someone asks, but this is the primary point for this discussion. (I don't really know how any of this factors into Konig's estimation of what divinity actually is) > > It logically makes sense though, you have a situation where a power transfer occurs pre-Abaddon’s fall and then you have a transfer post Abaddon fall. The gods probably had no other choice but to seal Abaddon away because of the many secret rituals he held including this divinity transfer. Since he and only he held this secret they couldn’t do a power transfer like they did with Dhuum and Grenth. That was my logic for it. I'm glad I'm not the only one who saw that connection. Although Abaddon's fall was because of the whole 'give them magic' vs 'no let's not', but that may have been the final straw that broke the camels back in the eyes of the gods. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThatOddOne.4387 Posted July 22, 2018 Share Posted July 22, 2018 > I agree with the OP - the "gods" are magic infused beings, insanely powerful and having great knowledge about the Universe. They are mortals - as the Balthazar episode shows - and have no hesitation to lie the humans that they are Gods. Mmn. No. The Gods -are- immortal beings, but they can still be killed. They are not immortal as in invulerable, they are immortal as in they will not die from old age/probably most diseases. > In my opinion they are Gods in the same way a rock or the Sky or a Corrupted Ice being is a God for grawls: The rock is eternal / the sky is untouchable / the Ice Being is very strong and can kill anything. > From this point of view all the other races proved themselves smarter than the humans: > - the Charr needs no gods - is a statement that everything the gods can do can be achieved by the charr society (with greater efforts and slowly, but eventually achievable) > - the Assurans have no trust in the actual "gods". They acknowledged them as powerful and wise but they consider the gods to be part of the Eternal Alchemy - turning the EA into the creator of the gods. > - the Nords already have other beings taking care of the world - they also acknowledged the gods but considers the Great Spirits to do a better job in preserving the Universe. > - the Sylvari - they don't even know what a God is. Remember the dialogue in the Grove: "You constructed the Golem? That means you are its mother? Or the father?" In they minds everything is related with creation. No creation, then no Mother (or Father). > > The only remaining race stupid enough to worship the false gods are the humans. I think they should wake up and start to hunt down the impostors. Because, to do that is enough to strip them of divinity - and we know that even a human can do this. what. no? Humans cannot strip gods of divinity. Also, I fail to see how worshipping the Gods makes humans less intelligent than other races? Also you got it entirely wrong.: - The Charr can come nowhere NEAR the Gods. They called Titans (Demons) Gods, they were wrong. The Titans were not gods and if they came up against proper Gods would be crushed like an ant beneath a boot. That's the difference in power. Charr cannot come anywhere near the Gods under their own effort. Physically impossible. - The Asura acknowledge the Gods as powerful magical beings that are part of the Eternal Alchemy but they do not consider them CULTURALLY to be Gods. Big woop. That's just a difference in culture, doesn't prove they're better or smarter. They still ultimately view the Gods as immensely powerful beings. - The Norn actually view the Gods as greater "Spirits of Action" that are on another level of existence to their Spirits of the Wild as they govern greater portfolios, "Spirit of War" for Balthazar/his replacement, for example. They don't think the Spirits of the Wild "do a better job at preserving the universe"(???) - The Sylvari do know what a God is and it's frankly stupid they even considered the possibility the Gods didn't exist or were just stories of the humans when EVERY other race acknowledges the Gods as existing but regard them differently. They're not much of an authority of the subject and certainly doesn't make them "smarter" than humans in that regard. The Gods are not 'false' under any stretch of the imagination, they are clearly unique, extremely powerful (As in, Can Beat the Elder Dragons if They Didn't Care about Tyria kind of powerful) magical beings that govern their own realms. That easily qualifies them for Godhood when we're talking about their nearest equivalents: Pantheon gods from historical real life religions (Greek/Roman) or D&D Gods. They are on that same level. That makes them Gods, this cannot be argued. Hell, when ex-Gods are still powerful enough to take on Elder Dragons with a bit of juice, or break free of the restraints placed on them by one God (Balthazar and Dhuum) that should give you some idea of just what scale a God with all their powers is at. People need to stop projecting their dislike of real world religion onto fantasy equivalents that are proven to very much exist and provide tangible benefits in the universe. The two are not the same. ArenaNet too - It's blatantly obvious they're projecting a "religion is bad mkay" slant onto the Gods in Guild Wars and it really grinds my gears. Also as another note, people REALLY need to get it into their heads: Balthazar, TECHNICALLY, was not a God during Path of Fire, his divinity was taken away, thus he is no longer a God. HOWEVER, he was still CULTURALLY viewed as a God and likely Kormir being a previous human and even the other Gods being long time comrades of Balthazar can EASILY have a slip of the tongue and continue to refer to him as such because that's just a reflex, the same is true of any living being on Tyria. They're talking about Balthazar, therefore they refer to him as a God by reflex rather than it actually being true, because that's what they know him as. Doesn't mean he is one. Differentiate between in universe people's VIEWS of Balthazar (Aka, Balthazar is a God), and what is actually TECHNICALLY correct (Balthazar is NOT a God). It's not that hard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cristalyan.5728 Posted July 23, 2018 Share Posted July 23, 2018 > @"ThatOddOne.4387" said: > Mmn. No. The Gods -are- immortal beings, but they can still be killed. They are not immortal as in invulerable, they are immortal as in they will not die from old age/probably most diseases. > This is exactly the definition of the Elder Dragons. I think this definition fit even Jocko. Are they gods? > > what. no? Humans cannot strip gods of divinity. Also, I fail to see how worshipping the Gods makes humans less intelligent than other races? > This is exactly what Kormir did. If the divinity is needed to become a god, then Kormir had not the divinity prior to the battle with Abadon. She took Abadon's place as a god, then the conclusion is that the humans **can strip** a god of its divine power. For the second part of your question: Why the other races view the Skrits as stupid when "worshiping" all the shinny things (or beings - remember the Tarir episode when the local skrit community started to consider one of the Exalted as god because he was so shinny?) Worshiping a god is no reason to be considered stupid. Worshiping a false god is. BTW - in Timberline Falls I think is an event with an Assura pretending to be a god and the local grawls believing it. Are the grawls very smart? > Also you got it entirely wrong.: > > - The Charr can come nowhere NEAR the Gods. They called Titans (Demons) Gods, they were wrong. The Titans were not gods and if they came up against proper Gods would be crushed like an ant beneath a boot. That's the difference in power. Charr cannot come anywhere near the Gods under their own effort. Physically impossible. > - The Asura acknowledge the Gods as powerful magical beings that are part of the Eternal Alchemy but they do not consider them CULTURALLY to be Gods. Big woop. That's just a difference in culture, doesn't prove they're better or smarter. They still ultimately view the Gods as immensely powerful beings. > - The Norn actually view the Gods as greater "Spirits of Action" that are on another level of existence to their Spirits of the Wild as they govern greater portfolios, "Spirit of War" for Balthazar/his replacement, for example. They don't think the Spirits of the Wild "do a better job at preserving the universe"(???) > - The Sylvari do know what a God is and it's frankly stupid they even considered the possibility the Gods didn't exist or were just stories of the humans when EVERY other race acknowledges the Gods as existing but regard them differently. They're not much of an authority of the subject and certainly doesn't make them "smarter" than humans in that regard. > > The Gods are not 'false' under any stretch of the imagination, they are clearly unique, extremely powerful (As in, Can Beat the Elder Dragons if They Didn't Care about Tyria kind of powerful) magical beings that govern their own realms. That easily qualifies them for Godhood when we're talking about their nearest equivalents: Pantheon gods from historical real life religions (Greek/Roman) or D&D Gods. They are on that same level. That makes them Gods, this cannot be argued. Not the power makes a god to be a God. Or, not only the power. With enough time to evolve any race can reach the power level of the actual "gods". This is the reason I said the charrs can achieve anything the gods can achieve if given enough time. But this is not enough to be a god. Divine power? What is this? We don't know what ANet means by "divine power". But thanks to Kormir we know that any human can take this power from a god. And they don't care about Tyria. The message I understand from the ... strategic retreat of the gods is: "If we fight the dragons we may lose. And then the dragons will destroy you. But even if we win, the world will be destroyed. So, our choice, showing our greatest care for Tyria is to retreat and let the dragons to eat you. AAAA - if you as a commander can find a way to solve this problem, eliminating the actual dragons and keeping Tyria alive, then maybe, we will come back. And we will let the humans to worship us again". > ArenaNet too - It's blatantly obvious they're projecting a "religion is bad mkay" slant onto the Gods in Guild Wars and it really grinds my gears. I agree with this. The main problem with the lore is that we don't know how Tyria (and the GW2 universe) started to exist. We have here two possible variant (I said this before but I will repeat): 1. Tyria appeared in a similar way our Universe appeared - so a natural birth. This is an evolutionist (darwinist) Universe where the gods have no place. In this case the actual "gods" of the humans **are no gods**. They are powerful beings, with great knowledge, knowing how to extend their life span to a point where they are considered immortals. OR 2. The Tyrian universe has been created by an entity (or several entities) by a conscient action (a creationist universe). In this case the actual gods of the humans **are no gods**. Because (at least until now) we know they did not create Tyria. In fact, they created nothing. They are powerful beings ..... etc. And we still don't know who the **real** gods are. And by keeping this unclear status the lore team tries to appeal the creationist (believers) by introducing the gods, and in the other hand to appeal the evolutionists (the darwinists) by putting the mortals over any other forces of Tyria, even over the "gods". The result is a less and less credible mixture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now