Joko's speech at the end of Be My Guest - are we supposed to feel bad?

[Loesh.4697]

I mean that symbol isn't on the mirror, and symbols that are magical are essentially runes. But sure, even barring the runes themselves aren't a language I would imagine researching anything related to the gods requires at least some base experience with what these symbols and sigils look like. It also seems weird that everyone, including the Asura who both know and study Dervishes just have no idea what these sigils are or what they mean.

 

Essentially what i'm saying is humans hoard secrets like Dragons hoard treasure, it's unlikely that people are going to easily translate the text and be able to find relevant sources without doing some serious digging with human scholars to even have a snowballs chance in hell of making out what that waterlogged scroll is going on about.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

There's no mention of runes. Just "symbols", "markings", and "sigils", which are less letters and more pictograms if anything.

 

Not sure where you got that asura study dervishes, but it wouldn't really be universal for non-humans (especially charr, norn, and sylvari), or even humans given the increasing lack of faith in the Six due to their silence, to know every or even most symbol and sigil that was once utilized by the gods.

 

Given that both mesmers and non-mesmers among humans notice the symbols, it's safe to say that it isn't locked behind some profession knowledge. And just because non-humans don't know the symbols related to the human gods, doesn't mean humans hoard their knowledge. But most of all, there's nothing to indicate that there's any sort of text on this mirror.

 

And about the Tome of the Five True Gods - as brought up by Aaron, it's not in some fanciful divine language, but in Old Krytan.

[Loesh.4697]

> @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> There's no mention of runes. Just "symbols", "markings", and "sigils", which are less letters and more pictograms if anything.

>

> Not sure where you got that asura study dervishes, but it wouldn't really be universal for non-humans (especially charr, norn, and sylvari), or even humans given the increasing lack of faith in the Six due to their silence, to know every or even most symbol and sigil that was once utilized by the gods.

>

> Given that both mesmers and non-mesmers among humans notice the symbols, it's safe to say that it isn't locked behind some profession knowledge. And just because non-humans don't know the symbols related to the human gods, doesn't mean humans hoard their knowledge. But most of all, there's nothing to indicate that there's any sort of text on this mirror.

>

> And about the Tome of the Five True Gods - as brought up by Aaron, it's not in some fanciful divine language, but in Old Krytan.

 

I already said in the post above that regardless of it not being a language the God Runes, God Sigils, God Symbols, pretty much the same. Actually Runes is more accurate then Symbols or Sigils since it's on a magic item, the point was essentially it's a thing that's hard to decipher. Old Krytan or not, anything god related probably has god specific stuff inside of it, unless the Priory is actually just struggling with Old Krytan n it's own. Seems doubtful for such an important piece of work, but I suppose theoretically possible.

 

Asura study literally everything, but in Zinn's failed colony the Rata Novus holograms talk about a number of things, dervishes included. I also would hesitate to calling recognizing that a marking is powerful as knowing what it is, it's clear the person has to be human to realize it's Lyssian, if you're a non-human you seem utterly oblivious to what the marking actually mean. Any idiot can point to a rune, but the text explicitly states that while you recognize it's mesmeric you've always just never seen it before. It's alien, for all intents and purposes. Meanwhile humans who don't know Mesmerism can tell it's Lyssian, and those who do can tell it's Lyssa specifically, that's a pretty massive gap in knowledge between the species. You'd think the commander who is, presumably, somewhat educated at this point would recognize what a gods signature would look like if it was publically available, no?

 

I mean obviously the other races would put less emphasis, but to not know what a supernaturally world shaping powers sigils look like seems like a pretty big oversight. Except for the Charr of course, considering that suggesting that worship be legalized is a criminal offense and they already feed their Farhrars a propagandized alternate version of history.

 

Humans hoarding their knowledge of the gods isn't exactly new lore, Dervishes have always operated on a Sith Rule of Two purely to keep knowledge between master and pupil.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

> @"Loesh.4697" said:

> I already said in the post above that regardless of it not being a language the God Runes, God Sigils, God Symbols, pretty much the same. Actually Runes is more accurate then Symbols or Sigils since it's on a magic item, the point was essentially it's a thing that's hard to decipher.

 

If you use an incorrect meaning of what runes are, sure. But my point is that the words actually used - sigil, symbol, and marking - aren't something you decipher at all.

 

> @"Loesh.4697" said:

> Asura study literally everything, but in Zinn's failed colony the Rata Novus holograms talk about a number of things, dervishes included.

 

Asura actually don't study everything. Hell, in the first mission of the Statics asura storyline, Flax of the Arcane Council state this about a statue:

 

Councillor Flax: It looks human to me, and therefore worthless. Bring me something extraordinary!

 

So there are some asura (perhaps many) who view certain subjects as worthless. To presume universal study is silly. Furthermore, Rata Novus was isolated from the rest of asurakind due to having exceptionally different philosophies from those who remained at Rata Sum. So it's fully expected that their realms of research diverge greatly. And given that ley lines were merely speculated to exist until 1326 AE by Sumian asura, yet Novan asura had been not only studying them first hand but utilizing them to power their city before the chak came over 100 years prior to 1326 AE, rather proves this point.

 

> @"Loesh.4697" said:

> I also would hesitate to calling recognizing that a marking is powerful as knowing what it is, it's clear the person has to be human to realize it's Lyssian, if you're a non-human you seem utterly oblivious to what the marking actually mean.

 

The non-human mesmer line shows that they see markings, just as non-mesmers humans do. Though non-humans do not recognize them as Lyssa's sigil(s), they still see and can theoretically read. The entire reason they can't is because they're unfamiliar with human culture.

 

So while they do not know what they mean, your earlier statement of "they must be human and of the appropriate profession to see/read the runes" is utterly false. Non-humans and non-mesmers can certainly see them, they're merely lacking the knowledge to know what they are. No different than if someone who learned English and only saw English all their life suddenly found themselves looking at Cuneiform. The only thing they lack is knowing what the symbols mean; there's no mystical barrier preventing them from learning and reading it.

 

And there's **nothing** to hint that the knowledge is at all restricted. Just as an German won't know Spanish culture unless they go out to study it, a sylvari won't know human culture unless they go out to study it.

 

> @"Loesh.4697" said:

> You'd think the commander who is, presumably, somewhat educated at this point would recognize what a gods signature would look like if it was publically available, no?

 

Educated, sure, but keep in mind that until 3 years prior to this point, they were educated and locked in their own culture. And even after that, the primary things they were interested in learning, plot-wise, would be about Elder Dragons. Not the others' faiths.

 

Granted that Out of the Shadows proved that the Commander, even sylvari Commanders, learned a bit of human history, what was brought up was a major event in relatively recent history, but going to Arah and the Commander doesn't know shit about the place unless they're human.

 

> @"Loesh.4697" said:

> I mean obviously the other races would put less emphasis, but to not know what a supernaturally world shaping powers sigils look like seems like a pretty big oversight. Except for the Charr of course, considering that suggesting that worship be legalized is a criminal offense and they already feed their Farhrars a propagandized alternate version of history.

 

Charr views are actually pretty damn close to norn and asuran views on the Six. The main difference is that while norn and asura accept them as existing, charr accept them as existing but also as an opponent. Sylvari simply question their existence.

 

> @"Loesh.4697" said:

> Humans hoarding their knowledge of the gods isn't exactly new lore, Dervishes have always operated on a Sith Rule of Two purely to keep knowledge between master and pupil.

 

Uh... no they haven't? That's never once been a part of dervish lore, and I have no clue where you're even getting such a massive misunderstanding. The only possible case I can see this misunderstanding would be with Kahyet and Varesh. But that wasn't typical dervish mentorship, but more "Abaddon cult mentorship"; as we can see in [sunspear training](https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Churrhir_Fields), there's three dervish teachers who would train any Sunspear willing to learn the dervish arts.

 

And outside of "closely kept secrets" like Grenth being born a half-god, half-mortal, which was kept secret to all outside of the Church of Grenth (in this case), there's no evidence of humans "hoarding their knowledge of the gods". Hell, [we have preachers trying to convert norn to following the Six](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Samuel_Cuttler) for crying out loud.

[Loesh.4697]

> @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:>

> If you use an incorrect meaning of what runes are, sure. But my point is that the words actually used - sigil, symbol, and marking - aren't something you decipher at all.

>

I mean the correct definition of Runes is derived from the germanic language specifically, which doesn't exist in Guild Wars, so i'll take the alternative definition of 'It's a marking that's magical', unless you want to argue that the magical artifact does not necessarily have magical runes on it, but the texts implies the two are linked, so there ya go.

 

>

> Asura actually don't study everything. Hell, in the first mission of the Statics asura storyline, Flax of the Arcane Council state this about a statue:

>

> Councillor Flax: It looks human to me, and therefore worthless. Bring me something extraordinary!

>

> So there are some asura (perhaps many) who view certain subjects as worthless. To presume universal study is silly. Furthermore, Rata Novus was isolated from the rest of asurakind due to having exceptionally different philosophies from those who remained at Rata Sum. So it's fully expected that their realms of research diverge greatly. And given that ley lines were merely speculated to exist until 1326 AE by Sumian asura, yet Novan asura had been not only studying them first hand but utilizing them to power their city before the chak came over 100 years prior to 1326 AE, rather proves this point.

>

 

Eh fair enough, Asura are just as ignorant as the rest of Tyria. Point for you.

 

> > @"Loesh.4697" said:

> > I also would hesitate to calling recognizing that a marking is powerful as knowing what it is, it's clear the person has to be human to realize it's Lyssian, if you're a non-human you seem utterly oblivious to what the marking actually mean.

>

> The non-human mesmer line shows that they see markings, just as non-mesmers humans do. Though non-humans do not recognize them as Lyssa's sigil(s), they still see and can theoretically read. The entire reason they can't is because they're unfamiliar with human culture.

>

> So while they do not know what they mean, your earlier statement of "they must be human and of the appropriate profession to see/read the runes" is utterly false. Non-humans and non-mesmers can certainly see them, they're merely lacking the knowledge to know what they are. No different than if someone who learned English and only saw English all their life suddenly found themselves looking at Cuneiform. The only thing they lack is knowing what the symbols mean; there's no mystical barrier preventing them from learning and reading it.

>

 

I never implied that there was a magical barrier preventing them from learning and reading it, only that they don't seem to know and thus by indications it's not widely held knowledge. Below you even admit that yes the Church of Grenth restrains knowledge on pieces of information, I would imagine even if you were completely ignorant of what human gods do you would at least recognize their signature if it was publically available information, unless our PC is so utterly ignorant that they don't even know what the gods names are.

 

> And there's **nothing** to hint that the knowledge is at all restricted. Just as an German won't know Spanish culture unless they go out to study it, a sylvari won't know human culture unless they go out to study it.

>

 

> > @"Loesh.4697" said:

> > You'd think the commander who is, presumably, somewhat educated at this point would recognize what a gods signature would look like if it was publically available, no?

>

> Educated, sure, but keep in mind that until 3 years prior to this point, they were educated and locked in their own culture. And even after that, the primary things they were interested in learning, plot-wise, would be about Elder Dragons. Not the others' faiths.

>

 

Again, a gods Signature seems so utterly basic you'd figure everyone would know what it looks like if it was just out there. Which it doesn't appear to be by all indications since no one by the human PC can even tell it's Lyssian.

 

> Granted that Out of the Shadows proved that the Commander, even sylvari Commanders, learned a bit of human history, what was brought up was a major event in relatively recent history, but going to Arah and the Commander doesn't know kitten about the place unless they're human.

>

> > @"Loesh.4697" said:

> > I mean obviously the other races would put less emphasis, but to not know what a supernaturally world shaping powers sigils look like seems like a pretty big oversight. Except for the Charr of course, considering that suggesting that worship be legalized is a criminal offense and they already feed their Farhrars a propagandized alternate version of history.

>

> Charr views are actually pretty kitten close to norn and asuran views on the Six. The main difference is that while norn and asura accept them as existing, charr accept them as existing but also as an opponent. Sylvari simply question their existence.

>

I mean viewing them as something to be fought is, in and of itself, a radical departure in perspective and changes the entirety of how one would talk about the gods.

 

> > @"Loesh.4697" said:

> > Humans hoarding their knowledge of the gods isn't exactly new lore, Dervishes have always operated on a Sith Rule of Two purely to keep knowledge between master and pupil.

>

> Uh... no they haven't? That's never once been a part of dervish lore, and I have no clue where you're even getting such a massive misunderstanding. The only possible case I can see this misunderstanding would be with Kahyet and Varesh. But that wasn't typical dervish mentorship, but more "Abaddon cult mentorship"; as we can see in [sunspear training](https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Churrhir_Fields), there's three dervish teachers who would train any Sunspear willing to learn the dervish arts.

>

> And outside of "closely kept secrets" like Grenth being born a half-god, half-mortal, which was kept secret to all outside of the Church of Grenth (in this case), there's no evidence of humans "hoarding their knowledge of the gods". Hell, [we have preachers trying to convert norn to following the Six](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Samuel_Cuttler) for crying out loud.

 

That's actually from the Wiki you just linked me, under Dervish, which I assume is text from either Nightfalls Quests or the game manual. I haven't seen where, but you're free to ask for a citation on the master and pupil relationship Dervishes have, cause i'd half like to know as well.

 

 

[Tyson.5160]

> @"Loesh.4697" said:

> > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:>

> > If you use an incorrect meaning of what runes are, sure. But my point is that the words actually used - sigil, symbol, and marking - aren't something you decipher at all.

> >

> I mean the correct definition of Runes is derived from the germanic language specifically, which doesn't exist in Guild Wars, so i'll take the alternative definition of 'It's a marking that's magical', unless you want to argue that the magical artifact does not necessarily have magical runes on it, but the texts implies the two are linked, so there ya go.

>

> >

> > Asura actually don't study everything. Hell, in the first mission of the Statics asura storyline, Flax of the Arcane Council state this about a statue:

> >

> > Councillor Flax: It looks human to me, and therefore worthless. Bring me something extraordinary!

> >

> > So there are some asura (perhaps many) who view certain subjects as worthless. To presume universal study is silly. Furthermore, Rata Novus was isolated from the rest of asurakind due to having exceptionally different philosophies from those who remained at Rata Sum. So it's fully expected that their realms of research diverge greatly. And given that ley lines were merely speculated to exist until 1326 AE by Sumian asura, yet Novan asura had been not only studying them first hand but utilizing them to power their city before the chak came over 100 years prior to 1326 AE, rather proves this point.

> >

>

> Eh fair enough, Asura are just as ignorant as the rest of Tyria. Point for you.

>

> > > @"Loesh.4697" said:

> > > I also would hesitate to calling recognizing that a marking is powerful as knowing what it is, it's clear the person has to be human to realize it's Lyssian, if you're a non-human you seem utterly oblivious to what the marking actually mean.

> >

> > The non-human mesmer line shows that they see markings, just as non-mesmers humans do. Though non-humans do not recognize them as Lyssa's sigil(s), they still see and can theoretically read. The entire reason they can't is because they're unfamiliar with human culture.

> >

> > So while they do not know what they mean, your earlier statement of "they must be human and of the appropriate profession to see/read the runes" is utterly false. Non-humans and non-mesmers can certainly see them, they're merely lacking the knowledge to know what they are. No different than if someone who learned English and only saw English all their life suddenly found themselves looking at Cuneiform. The only thing they lack is knowing what the symbols mean; there's no mystical barrier preventing them from learning and reading it.

> >

>

> I never implied that there was a magical barrier preventing them from learning and reading it, only that they don't seem to know and thus by indications it's not widely held knowledge. Below you even admit that yes the Church of Grenth restrains knowledge on pieces of information, I would imagine even if you were completely ignorant of what human gods do you would at least recognize their signature if it was publically available information, unless our PC is so utterly ignorant that they don't even know what the gods names are.

>

> > And there's **nothing** to hint that the knowledge is at all restricted. Just as an German won't know Spanish culture unless they go out to study it, a sylvari won't know human culture unless they go out to study it.

> >

>

> > > @"Loesh.4697" said:

> > > You'd think the commander who is, presumably, somewhat educated at this point would recognize what a gods signature would look like if it was publically available, no?

> >

> > Educated, sure, but keep in mind that until 3 years prior to this point, they were educated and locked in their own culture. And even after that, the primary things they were interested in learning, plot-wise, would be about Elder Dragons. Not the others' faiths.

> >

>

> Again, a gods Signature seems so utterly basic you'd figure everyone would know what it looks like if it was just out there. Which it doesn't appear to be by all indications since no one by the human PC can even tell it's Lyssian.

>

> > Granted that Out of the Shadows proved that the Commander, even sylvari Commanders, learned a bit of human history, what was brought up was a major event in relatively recent history, but going to Arah and the Commander doesn't know kitten about the place unless they're human.

> >

> > > @"Loesh.4697" said:

> > > I mean obviously the other races would put less emphasis, but to not know what a supernaturally world shaping powers sigils look like seems like a pretty big oversight. Except for the Charr of course, considering that suggesting that worship be legalized is a criminal offense and they already feed their Farhrars a propagandized alternate version of history.

> >

> > Charr views are actually pretty kitten close to norn and asuran views on the Six. The main difference is that while norn and asura accept them as existing, charr accept them as existing but also as an opponent. Sylvari simply question their existence.

> >

> I mean viewing them as something to be fought is, in and of itself, a radical departure in perspective and changes the entirety of how one would talk about the gods.

>

> > > @"Loesh.4697" said:

> > > Humans hoarding their knowledge of the gods isn't exactly new lore, Dervishes have always operated on a Sith Rule of Two purely to keep knowledge between master and pupil.

> >

> > Uh... no they haven't? That's never once been a part of dervish lore, and I have no clue where you're even getting such a massive misunderstanding. The only possible case I can see this misunderstanding would be with Kahyet and Varesh. But that wasn't typical dervish mentorship, but more "Abaddon cult mentorship"; as we can see in [sunspear training](https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Churrhir_Fields), there's three dervish teachers who would train any Sunspear willing to learn the dervish arts.

> >

> > And outside of "closely kept secrets" like Grenth being born a half-god, half-mortal, which was kept secret to all outside of the Church of Grenth (in this case), there's no evidence of humans "hoarding their knowledge of the gods". Hell, [we have preachers trying to convert norn to following the Six](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Samuel_Cuttler) for crying out loud.

>

> That's actually from the Wiki you just linked me, under Dervish, which I assume is text from either Nightfalls Quests or the game manual. I haven't seen where, but you're free to ask for a citation on the master and pupil relationship Dervishes have, cause i'd half like to know as well.

>

>

You have to be careful with the wiki sometimes, I believe the intention is good, but there are errors or people putting in opinions. I’m guilty of doing it myself. Best to grab in game sources or dev comments and if your really reaching the novels, though the devs advised that the game will also trump the novels on canonicity.

 

[Loesh.4697]

 

> >

> You have to be careful with the wiki sometimes, I believe the intention is good, but there are errors or people putting in opinions. I’m guilty of doing it myself. Best to grab in game sources or dev comments and if your really reaching the novels, though the devs advised that the game will also trump the novels on canonicity.

>

 

True, but it seemed like such a weirdly specific addition that someone had to get the idea to add it there from somewhere. Ill do some searching and see if I can't dig up something.

 

[Tyson.5160]

> @"Loesh.4697" said:

>

> > >

> > You have to be careful with the wiki sometimes, I believe the intention is good, but there are errors or people putting in opinions. I’m guilty of doing it myself. Best to grab in game sources or dev comments and if your really reaching the novels, though the devs advised that the game will also trump the novels on canonicity.

> >

>

> True, but it seemed like such a weirdly specific addition that someone had to get the idea to add it there from somewhere. Ill do some searching and see if I can't dig up something.

>

Could be from the nightfall manual.

 

[Aaron Ansari.1604]

> @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > @"Loesh.4697" said:

> >

> > > >

> > > You have to be careful with the wiki sometimes, I believe the intention is good, but there are errors or people putting in opinions. I’m guilty of doing it myself. Best to grab in game sources or dev comments and if your really reaching the novels, though the devs advised that the game will also trump the novels on canonicity.

> > >

> >

> > True, but it seemed like such a weirdly specific addition that someone had to get the idea to add it there from somewhere. Ill do some searching and see if I can't dig up something.

> >

> Could be from the nightfall manual.

>

 

It isn't, and it isn't from any quest text in-game, either. Just went through and checked. It could be from an interview old enough that I've never seen it, or from removed content... or it could really be weirdly specific headcanon that made its way onto the wiki. That sort of thing doesn't happen very often, but there've been a couple times that it's slipped through the cracks.

[Tyson.5160]

> @"Aaron Ansari.1604" said:

> > @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > > @"Loesh.4697" said:

> > >

> > > > >

> > > > You have to be careful with the wiki sometimes, I believe the intention is good, but there are errors or people putting in opinions. I’m guilty of doing it myself. Best to grab in game sources or dev comments and if your really reaching the novels, though the devs advised that the game will also trump the novels on canonicity.

> > > >

> > >

> > > True, but it seemed like such a weirdly specific addition that someone had to get the idea to add it there from somewhere. Ill do some searching and see if I can't dig up something.

> > >

> > Could be from the nightfall manual.

> >

>

> It isn't, and it isn't from any quest text in-game, either. Just went through and checked. It could be from an interview old enough that I've never seen it, or from removed content... or it could really be weirdly specific headcanon that made its way onto the wiki. That sort of thing doesn't happen very often, but there've been a couple times that it's slipped through the cracks.

 

Checked the wiki, looked like someone added the write up in July 2011, which could be completely false.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

> @"Loesh.4697" said:

> I never implied that there was a magical barrier preventing them from learning and reading it, only that they don't seem to know and thus by indications it's not widely held knowledge. Below you even admit that yes the Church of Grenth restrains knowledge on pieces of information, I would imagine even if you were completely ignorant of what human gods do you would at least recognize their signature if it was publically available information, unless our PC is so utterly ignorant that they don't even know what the gods names are.

>

> [...]

>

> Again, a gods Signature seems so utterly basic you'd figure everyone would know what it looks like if it was just out there. Which it doesn't appear to be by all indications since no one by the human PC can even tell it's Lyssian.

 

Without looking up, can you tell me of any signature symbol used by the Shinto gods?

 

Or to go a bit more western, do you know the signature symbol used to represent Islam or Judaism? Hindu?

 

If you know either, I'd bet it's because you were exposed to that religion or studied it for some time in one form or another. Because all of that is a simple wiki search away at this point, but before internet would have been a simple trip to the library or a temple of the faith. All the same, _you'd need to go out and actively search for it._

 

To know such things, you first need exposure. And even if it's the next country over, you're not going to be exposed to it if you rarely travel. Now the Commander does travel, but where has he/she traveled? To the front lines against Dragon Minions, more often than not. And even with our trips to DR, where one may see some of the more common ones, the less common ones wouldn't be seen often and, more importantly, wouldn't likely be memorized even if seen.

 

The Six Gods aren't exactly on par to Christianity where everyone in the world can recognize a cross as a holy object.

 

> @"Loesh.4697" said:

> I mean viewing them as something to be fought is, in and of itself, a radical departure in perspective and changes the entirety of how one would talk about the gods.

 

Not entirely. The primary perspective of norn, asura, and charr are "they exist, they're powerful, and they're gods, but they're not worth worshiping". Charr just take it one step forward and adds a "but worth fighting if the chance comes". It's not like they're actively seeking out weaknesses for the Six, they just believe that it would be better to draw a sword rather than bend a knee, should they ever meet one, while the asura and norn would rather just keep standing.

 

> @"Loesh.4697" said:

> That's actually from the Wiki you just linked me, under Dervish, which I assume is text from either Nightfalls Quests or the game manual. I haven't seen where, but you're free to ask for a citation on the master and pupil relationship Dervishes have, cause i'd half like to know as well.

Just did some searching and [of course it was Santax](https://wiki.guildwars.com/index.php?title=Dervish&diff=2341623&oldid=2341618) who added it, a person with a **LONG** history of putting in his own theories and speculations as facts on the wiki and will maintain "edit wars" to keep anything he adds up.

 

Most of that stuff comes from the Making of NF video from the NF Collector's Edition, if memory serves me right, but there's nothing in-game about such a method of teaching, and Churrhir Fields outright disproves that, at least among Sunspears.

 

Though I would not call "a master teaches one pupil at a time" to be a "Rule of Two" since that line outright states that a master would often take on a new pupil after the old one left, just that it would take a while to find a suitable one.

[Loesh.4697]

> @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> > @"Loesh.4697" said:

> > I never implied that there was a magical barrier preventing them from learning and reading it, only that they don't seem to know and thus by indications it's not widely held knowledge. Below you even admit that yes the Church of Grenth restrains knowledge on pieces of information, I would imagine even if you were completely ignorant of what human gods do you would at least recognize their signature if it was publically available information, unless our PC is so utterly ignorant that they don't even know what the gods names are.

> >

> > [...]

> >

> > Again, a gods Signature seems so utterly basic you'd figure everyone would know what it looks like if it was just out there. Which it doesn't appear to be by all indications since no one by the human PC can even tell it's Lyssian.

>

> Without looking up, can you tell me of any signature symbol used by the Shinto gods?

>

> Or to go a bit more western, do you know the signature symbol used to represent Islam or Judaism? Hindu?

>

> If you know either, I'd bet it's because you were exposed to that religion or studied it for some time in one form or another. Because all of that is a simple wiki search away at this point, but before internet would have been a simple trip to the library or a temple of the faith. All the same, _you'd need to go out and actively search for it._

>

> To know such things, you first need exposure. And even if it's the next country over, you're not going to be exposed to it if you rarely travel. Now the Commander does travel, but where has he/she traveled? To the front lines against Dragon Minions, more often than not. And even with our trips to DR, where one may see some of the more common ones, the less common ones wouldn't be seen often and, more importantly, wouldn't likely be memorized even if seen.

>

> The Six Gods aren't exactly on par to Christianity where everyone in the world can recognize a cross as a holy object.

>

 

I think this ones a bit of a hit and miss for me. I'm not familiar with most of those things but at the same time, the Six saturate Tyria. They aren't widely worshiped, but i'd say you can't throw a dead Hylek without hitting one of their objects. People know their names, their visage, and their domains once they really get out into the world. We'd of seen something at Orr, or Kryta, or anywhere with humans, or old human ruins if it was something that basic. Especially if your characters a Mesmer, even if they don't have an interest you'd think you'd at least brush over them.

 

> > @"Loesh.4697" said:

> > I mean viewing them as something to be fought is, in and of itself, a radical departure in perspective and changes the entirety of how one would talk about the gods.

>

> Not entirely. The primary perspective of norn, asura, and charr are "they exist, they're powerful, and they're gods, but they're not worth worshiping". Charr just take it one step forward and adds a "but worth fighting if the chance comes". It's not like they're actively seeking out weaknesses for the Six, they just believe that it would be better to draw a sword rather than bend a knee, should they ever meet one, while the asura and norn would rather just keep standing.

>

 

I think that's fair to a degree, I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of Charr weren't looking for exactly that. Especially given the negative view of faith in general, perceiving faith itself as an object of hatred I think would still alter their perceptions. But perhaps not to the point of outright historical revisionism...usually.

 

> > @"Loesh.4697" said:

> > That's actually from the Wiki you just linked me, under Dervish, which I assume is text from either Nightfalls Quests or the game manual. I haven't seen where, but you're free to ask for a citation on the master and pupil relationship Dervishes have, cause i'd half like to know as well.

> Just did some searching and [of course it was Santax](https://wiki.guildwars.com/index.php?title=Dervish&diff=2341623&oldid=2341618) who added it, a person with a **LONG** history of putting in his own theories and speculations as facts on the wiki and will maintain "edit wars" to keep anything he adds up.

>

> Most of that stuff comes from the Making of NF video from the NF Collector's Edition, if memory serves me right, but there's nothing in-game about such a method of teaching, and Churrhir Fields outright disproves that, at least among Sunspears.

>

> Though I would not call "a master teaches one pupil at a time" to be a "Rule of Two" since that line outright states that a master would often take on a new pupil after the old one left, just that it would take a while to find a suitable one.

 

Fair enough, straight up. I have no citation, and thus no argument.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

> @"Loesh.4697" said:

> I think this ones a bit of a hit and miss for me. I'm not familiar with most of those things but at the same time, the Six saturate Tyria. They aren't widely worshiped, but i'd say you can't throw a dead Hylek without hitting one of their objects. People know their names, their visage, and their domains once they really get out into the world. We'd of seen something at Orr, or Kryta, or anywhere with humans, or old human ruins if it was something that basic. Especially if your characters a Mesmer, even if they don't have an interest you'd think you'd at least brush over them.

 

My point is that the faith of the Six do **not** "saturate Tyria". People know of them, yes, but the faith isn't on par to Christianity or Islam for us. They'll know their names, a base description of their appearance, and their primary domain, but not much beyond that unless they go out of their way to look for it.

 

A human may know "Grenth is the god of death, ice, and darkness, who resides in the Underworld, oversees the judgment of the dead and sends them to their rightful place; he is often depicted as a man in a robe wearing a goat skullmask, is the son of Dwayna, and overthrew Dhuum." While a non-human would likely only know "Grenth is the god of death and ice, and wears a skull mask."

 

Same way that, as a non-Muslim who has yet to read the Quran and not really bothered to delve into the religion, I know jack shit about Muhammad's life, just that he found revelation in a cave (I think?), Muslims religiously forbid artistic depiction of him, and I think he ascended into heaven on a horse? Maybe? And Islam is pretty well "saturated" throughout western and middle eastern culture.

[Loesh.4697]

> @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> > @"Loesh.4697" said:

> > I think this ones a bit of a hit and miss for me. I'm not familiar with most of those things but at the same time, the Six saturate Tyria. They aren't widely worshiped, but i'd say you can't throw a dead Hylek without hitting one of their objects. People know their names, their visage, and their domains once they really get out into the world. We'd of seen something at Orr, or Kryta, or anywhere with humans, or old human ruins if it was something that basic. Especially if your characters a Mesmer, even if they don't have an interest you'd think you'd at least brush over them.

>

> My point is that the faith of the Six do **not** "saturate Tyria". People know of them, yes, but the faith isn't on par to Christianity or Islam for us. They'll know their names, a base description of their appearance, and their primary domain, but not much beyond that unless they go out of their way to look for it.

>

> A human may know "Grenth is the god of death, ice, and darkness, who resides in the Underworld, oversees the judgment of the dead and sends them to their rightful place; he is often depicted as a man in a robe wearing a goat skullmask, is the son of Dwayna, and overthrew Dhuum." While a non-human would likely only know "Grenth is the god of death and ice, and wears a skull mask."

>

> Same way that, as a non-Muslim who has yet to read the Quran and not really bothered to delve into the religion, I know jack kitten about Muhammad's life, just that he found revelation in a cave (I think?), Muslims religiously forbid artistic depiction of him, and I think he ascended into heaven on a horse? Maybe? And Islam is pretty well "saturated" throughout western and middle eastern culture.

 

Of course, and I don't disagree with any of that. It's just that a signature, in my mind at least, would be on the same level of importance as what a god physically looks like. It's a basic form of imagery. Much like how you can deduce from clothing what any given priest of the Gods is aligned to, you should know what something like that is. Or that's what I thought at first, but upon self reflection if it is a personal signature, perhaps it just doesn't show up anywhere else besides objects that they own.

 

So yeah, on thinking on it, I concede. The text doesn't explicitly state they keep that information to themselves, so it's fair to assume the PC may just be very knowledgeable because of their races schooling on the subject. I still don't think humans are particularly open about anything, even if they are preaching to Norn in Hoelbrak, but I suppose that could be said of the races in general.

 

Admittedly part of this is just i'm a very stubborn person, but i'm way too exhausted to be stubborn at the moment. :P

[Ardid.7203]

IMO, Joko just pointed to some pretty obvious facts about the Commander. Maybe he intended to mock us, or to make a point to down us from the high moral ground we are supposed to live on, or somehow justify his own crazy agenda... but, frankly, the points are so simple and known, I've assumed my commander has already chewed on them, taken all the scarce nutrients there could have been and spitted the ball in the side of the road 3 or 4 chapters ago.

 

My commander knows she's a talented killer without much moral, a genocidal entity trying to solve truly delicate and mystical problems with a flamethrower. She knows she was terribly mistaken about some very important stuff, and she knows the end of Tyria would likely be her fault. She just doesn't lose time suffering because of this crystal clear facts, she's just trying to make the best possible with what she have. She understands: she is no hero, but she is the best Tyria has right now.

 

So Joko can keep joking while eternally melting in acid. My commander just don't have more kittens to give.